WSB Forum » Open Discussion

(76 posts)

WEST SEATTLE BRIDGE SPEED LIMIT INCREASE


  1. alan004
    Member Profile

    Okay, I knew this would happen, and it has. Part of the reason for widening the West Seattle Bridge was to help the Seattle PD set up easier and safer conditions for them to set up speed traps, and hence increase revenue for the city. I am starting the long overdue task of getting these archaic speed limits increased to the 21st century. And please, do not insult me with "this is dangerous and will increase accidents" because this is non issue.
    So, coming off the exit ramp from I5 to the bridge it is currently
    35. This should now be increased to 45mph. Once clear of the on and off ramps, coming up the slight hill to crest the bridge, should now be 55mph. Lets face it, the bridge is wide enough and safe enough now to run a Formula 1 championship over it and back.
    Im tired of seeing bike cops and patrol cars handing out tickets on a sunny day like they were boxes of cracker jacks. Lets put a stop to this insanity. Who is with me??

    Alan

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. I agree that the speed limit needs to be increased. Not necessarily because of speed traps, but because everybody goes a different speed limit on the bridge. Some do 45, some do 55 and some do 65. So those that are speeding make it very dangerous because of how fast they are weaving in and out of lanes.

    Please note that I am not excusing the speeders on the bridge. The speed limit is 45 and everyone should do 45 until the speed limit is changed. And you should get a ticket if you are speeding. BUT the problem is - 45 really is too slow and it is really easy to speed. Yes - I know self control.... blah blah blah... But the bottom line is - 45 is too slow. There are very few people who actually do 45 on the bridge and everyone else is switching lanes to get around them... sometimes dangerously.
    I would be happy to go 55 on the bridge and 45 on the Spokane Viaduct.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. because you can doesn't mean you should...next , people will advocate for 60, etc...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. I am generally in agreement, but I am wondering if the new on-ramp from 1st avenue south has anything to do with it? That's a very short distance to get up to 45mph before merging left.

    Similarly, the 1st and 4th avenue exits eastbound might make more sense at the current speeds.

    Don't get me wrong, when heading east or west on the new ssv 35 seems painfully slow.....

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. Ms. Sparkles
    Member Profile

    I'm with you Alan004...so how?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. Considering the relatively short length of the "West Seattle Freeway" even doubling the speed limit wouldn't save you a significant amount of time. Increasing speeds would also lengthen safe distance intervals between cars, potentially lowering the volume of vehicles that section of roadway can accommodate. That's not to mention the shortened reaction time and increased accident physics when crashes do happen. And accidents are frequent on that stretch of roadway.

    So I think there are some reasonable counterpoints to your revenue-motivated SPD conspiracy theories. I agree that it FEELS better to go faster on that section of roadway. But personally I don't share the sense of speed entitlement. And considering the volume of car accidents the WSB covers in a normal week, I'd be more willing to support political advocacy focused on slowing cars down, not speeding them up.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. anonyme
    Member Profile

    I agree completely with Christopher. The bridge is a bottleneck, with lots of lane changes, merges, and accidents that regularly bring traffic to a standstill. I don't understand the mentality that insists the five minutes on the bridge must be reduced to 4.5. Safety should be the main concern, and while increased speed under some circumstances does increase safety, this is not one of those situations. The WS bridge is no more a freeway than Montlake.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. So, I calculate increasing the speed from the I-5 exit to 99 from 35 to 45 mph would save each car a whopping 14 seconds:
    Wolfram Alpha.
    Increasing the speed from 99 to the Fauntleroy exit from 45 to 55 would save each car 31 seconds (assuming each car instantaneously increases to 45 mph and maintains 45 right up to Fauntleroy--yikes!)

    So, following alan004's proposal, each car saves 45 seconds.

    Now, alan004 dismisses increasing accidents as a non-issue, but I don't think the research backs him up. "...the most recent and statistically robust research on speed and crash occurrence fairly definitively indicates that, all other factors being equal, increased speeds increase crash occurrence.(7) The magnitude of the increase is dependent on the specifics of each case, with urban areas having the most pronounced relationship..." (from Methods and Practices for Setting Speed Limits: An Informational Report from the FHWA.) If I correctly understand the formula given, increasing speed from 35 to 45 mph increases the rate of crashes by 1.28. (The rates are different for property-damage-only, injury, and fatality crashes.)

    We accept some level of risk at any speed. I don't think it's obvious what the correct trade-off is. But we should make that an informed trade-off, not merely an opinionated one.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. 2 Much Whine
    Member Profile

    2 Much Whine

    Not with ya Alan. Sorry.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. I agree with Alan that speed limits should be increased on the WS bridge and SSV. But this is just beating a dead horse with the West Seattle Blog crowd. I bet half would like to see it kept as is or even lowered because it's supposedly safer. And these are the same folks who say the same thing about Admiral and Highland Park Way being acceptable speed limits at 30 mph even though there are very few pedestrians, cyclists or homes on those roads. Yet they don't complain about 35th Ave being 35 mph when there are TONS of homes along it. Mind boggling the lack of common sense in these parts when it comes to driving. But everyone thinks they're right and the ones that want slow speeds are probably the ones causing the bulk of the accidents. And the other ones causing accidents are driving excessively fast and recklessly and should be riding Metro or a bicycle instead. This city has it all backwards when it comes to setting appropriate speed limits and the result is that we have to suffer with horrible traffic (and idiotic drivers). Woo hoo!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Took this up on the news page a month ago.

    http://westseattleblog.com/?p=122488

    Will ask SDOT if they ever had that traffic-engineer assessment done. - TR

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. alan004
    Member Profile

    Okay guys, I understand your comments... but it has nothing to do with saving time on a journey. It has every thing to do with traffic flow. The reality is that most every one will average a "whopping" 50-60MPH over the bridge any way. The accidents you quote are already "happening at 50-60mph or 40-55mph." You can still have shunts and bangs at 20mph.

    The issue is that if some one (me or you) is doing 59mph at say 11:00 AM (no rush hour traffic) then I or you, do not have to worry about PC Plod sitting on the hard shoulder with a "Lidar" gun waiting to dispense a $150 ticket because the posted speed limit is 45mph. Savvy? The speeds are already and have been for some time, well over 50MPH. As for braking distances, well Joe public should remember their driving theory and allow increased distances to stop in time... but I digress. That is another story and not meant for this discussion.
    What I am proposing is to narrow the badwith on posted speed to actual speed, so the ticket dispensing can come to a stop... make sense? Tracking with me here people?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. I agree with Alan in that the vast majority of people driving the viaduct/bridge are exceeding the posted speed limit by ten miles-per-hour. 45 on the highrise will get you tailgated - by everyone.

    This has nothing to do with "saving time," rather it's all about what is a prudent speed for the roadway.

    Take 99 south past the Spokane viaduct for instance... up to the WS Bridge the limit is 40. No onramps, traffic signals... nothing. But get past the bridge (by Liquor Board) and the limit INCREASES to 45 with multiple intersections/lights. It's this kind of bizarre, arbitrary speed designations that make me shake my head...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. alan004
    Member Profile

    Okay, so majority of people here are a yes. Now who do I need to see to make this happen, and how do I go about doing it?
    I need names, address, phone numbers and departments.

    Oh, and I have already started looking into Laser Jamming systems for my vehicle and radar detection equipment, I might suggest every one do the same.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. Good luck with the SDOT! I emailed someone a month ago about painting lane stripes on 35th between Myrtle and Othello and nothing has been done yet. And that stretch of road was repaved at least six months ago, if not longer!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. >>Okay, so majority of people here are a yes. Now who do I need to see to make this happen, and how do I go about doing it? [ . . . ] Oh, and I have already started looking into Laser Jamming systems for my vehicle and radar detection equipment, I might suggest every one do the same.

    –Just be sure to tell whoever you talk to how you're doing whatever you can to evade the law, and that you're encouraging others to do so as well. That's bound to win 'em over.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. alan004..now you want us to give us all the contacts? Seriously? Google is your friend..use it.

    You're not doing this for the good of all it looks like...you just want to go faster without getting a ticket...how altruistic...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. alan004
    Member Profile

    No, not for going faster. Stopping Seattle PD from lining the citys coffers with YOUR money. I am personally done with it. If you are happy to to cruise over the bridge one day and get a ticket because you were going with the flow of traffic and not looking at your speedo, then don't complain to me.
    I started this thread to see who else felt the same way and what can be done about it. Please stop trying to find fault or read into this what is not there.
    So, yes I am doing this for all and I will take the time to go and see who I need to see in person to get the ball rolling. Most of you are far too busy to carve the time out of your days to give me a hand. Opinions are easily posted... taking the time to put in the leg work and showing up to meet people is whole other cat indeed, yes?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. From the same report I quoted: "For the most part, the change in the mean speed of traffic created by a change in speed limit is around 25 percent of the change in the speed limit.(7) In other words, a speed limit increase or reduction of 6 mph (10 km/h) yields about a 1.5 mph (2.5 km/h) raising or lowering of the mean speed, respectively. When this statistic is combined with the power formula equating change in mean speed to crash risk, it is evident that lowering the speed limit will reduce crash risk, and raising the speed limit will increase crash risk."

    So, if the average speeds are currently 50 mph, increasing the speed limit from 35 to 45 would raise the average speed to about 52.5.

    Also note that, although, as you say, "You can still have shunts and bangs at 20mph", the same report notes: "severity increases geometrically as speed increases". Not linearly--geometrically. So there will be an increased cost in damage and injury from raising the speed limit.

    The report does go on to note:

    "...the relationship between travel speed and speed limits indicates that the percentage of violators increases when speed limits are lowered and decreases when speed limits are increased."

    It is possible you are correct, and that increasing the speed limit might be worth the tradeoff. Certainly it's reasonable to provide your feedback to SDOT. But there's a reason speed limits shouldn't be set by popular vote.

    I just think you shouldn't assume that just because you find the current limit annoying necessarily means it's wrong, nor that it's there as revenue generation for the city.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. alan..

    i got a ticket the other day traveling south along Marginal Way because i failed to notice that one street had turned into another and that the speed limit had therefore dropped from 35 to 30

    not only did i discover that the city has no responsibility to post speed signs when the speed changes.. i discovered that they have no responsibility to post street signs either.

    according to the officer who ticketed me, we should all assume that any place there is a stop sign that the speed limits have changed until we are otherwise notified by a speed limit sign..

    on top of that.. it seems that an officer's sworn statement that they have clocked you on radar and you were exceeding the speed limit is actual evidence as long as they can prove that the radar was working both before and after you were tagged.

    if it's on the ticket and in their log.. it's real.

    If you are counting on traffic flow for your speeds...
    the West Seattle Bridge "speed trap" is the least of your worries .

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. anonyme
    Member Profile

    I'm all for SPD lining the city coffers with cash from speeders and other scofflaws, and doing something useful with it. I see no "majority" agreement here...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. Update:

    SDOT spokesperson Paul Elliott says they do not expect to re-evaluate the speed limit till next year. From his reply to me:

    "As to your ... question about when the City Traffic Engineer will be evaluating the speed limit on the (Spokane Street Viaduct), he expects this to happen in the spring. We need normalized operating speeds along with some collision data (of which we currently have little). The spring timeframe will give us about six months of baseline collision data, with which to better assess the safety impacts of any change in the speed limit."

    -Tracy

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. 2 Much Whine
    Member Profile

    2 Much Whine

    If you drive the speed limit they can't "line the coffers."

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. WSratsinacage
    Member Profile

    Supposedly, enforcement is not a source of revenue but I kinda wish it was so we could clean up all the crap that is allowed to go on with not only speeding but abandoned cars, illegal parking, etc.. There needs to be some incentive for law enforcement to do their job proactively vs just waiting for Joe Public to fill out a form on on line or drop a dime. A lot of people don't want to be "rats" which I totally understand but that is how the system is currently set up. It's reactive vs proactive. I've seen cops drive by illegal stuff all the time from dogs being off leash to cars being parked illegally to moving violations and they just keep driving. Maybe they have more important calls to go on? Probably. Should they focus on more severe crimes? Yes. Still, no one does anything unless a member of the public complains after the fact.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. alan004
    Member Profile

    Tracy, notice how SDOT will run their 6 months starting in fall to run through the winter to assess collision data. Cunning indeed. Pick the worst part of the year. I suppose it has it's merits.

    2 Much Wine - The posted speed limits are far too slow. That is the point of all of this.

    Julie.. this is just what I knew and now it's been officially confirmed:

    "...the relationship between travel speed and speed limits indicates that the percentage of violators increases when speed limits are lowered and decreases when speed limits are increased."

    Just to give you all some scope, and this is just observation. I lived in Europe for 25 years. Learned to drive in England at the age of 16 in manual 5 speed car. I had my fair share of shunts and accidents at a young age. I then bought a very high performance car... needless to say, more trouble followed. I then took the responsible position of signing up for some brutally advanced driving courses, including handling circuits, skid pans, track time and very intense driving in the open country side, with one of the best drivers on this earth I have ever had the pleasure of sitting next to. He taught at Hendon and Stafford. (Two of the top UK Police driving schools in the country) I literally got my ass kicked. It was miserable for weeks.
    But I realized how much about driving I did not know. And its not all about speed. In fact that is at the lower end of the list of skills acquired. Safety was instilled to levels that would make joe public cringe.

    Just some highlights of other country's speed limits for you all:

    UK : Motorway (Interstate for the US) 70MPH.
    Now here is the interesting part as far the Police are concerned and what they use for a guid line in stopping some for speeding...
    "Fixed penalty range is 86-96MPH, any thing over 96MPH is serious" So, every one can cruise all day long at 86 in a 70 and you wont even raise PC plods eye brow. You have to be clocked using VASCAR at an AVERAGE speed exceeding 86mph over a 1/4 mile distance before the blue and reds come on in the rear view mirror.

    Germany: No speed limit on the Autobahns (Interstates for the US) but they are now imposing a speed limit of "86MPH in heavy rain and for night driving."

    Now, having said all that above, the standards of the initial driving tests in Europe are far higher than here in the US. If you increase driving standards here, then accidents will fall dramatically. Just my personal opinion.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. That was an amazing first sentence for the opening post. This is why I love British humour.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. Now, having said all that above, the standards of the initial driving tests in Europe are far higher than here in the US.

    I don't believe you. I've been to Greece.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. alan004
    Member Profile

    Okay.... let's cross Greece off the list.. my mistake. I'll narrow it down to just a few country's we know about:

    1) UK
    2) Germany
    3) Austria
    4) France (even if they do blockade the ports and let all the asylum seekers through)
    5) Belgium
    6) Holland
    7) Denmark

    Every where else is questionable... and yes, I know... Italy... but they are as loony with their driving as the Greeks.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. Tread softly before DOT increases the speed limits but then imposes a toll!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Wait.... soon to be a sublime resolution. Seattle is cash starved.. the insatiable beast must be fed. Someone should tell the city council... "hey, let's do like the airlines, banks, cruise industry".... everyone does 30 mph... BUT... you can purchase high speed plates... Husky Purple plates let ya cruise at 45... for say... an extra 50 bucks a month. McSchwinn Mauve plates.. 55 mph for a $100. EVERYONE is happy... the city gets the dough they are going to get.. no one is late for work, cops aren't choking and interfering with traffic flow with stops. Watch pretty soon they will be charging you !50 per ounce to buy a weed plant.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. create125
    Member Profile

    I think that the speed limit at least needs to be consistent across the bridge; I am ok with 45 or 50, and many people are going faster than that anyway. I hate paying for tickets, so I try to pay attention to the speed limit changes. Speaking of attention-- I don't necessarily see speeding as the problem-when crashes occur during peak traffic times, it seems more about people not paying attention to what's in front of them or to the side of them; not using their signals to change lanes-those things can happen at any speed.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. 365Stairs
    Member Profile

    365Stairs

    Not with ya Alan...I will look for 14 seconds of a day savings someplace else...

    I - for one - am more concerned about being safe and abiding by posted speed laws...it is such a short distance of roadway...isn't their other battles to fight?

    TMW had it right...

    WSB - as usual...your ability to get to the source and provide updates is awesome!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. alan004
    Member Profile

    Its not about the time savings. It's about paying out $$$ to the city in Police tickets. This is the bottom line.

    Okay, I have enough of a consensus here to show up to SDOT and get some traction. Wish me luck all. If I fail, I will list here venues to where you can get LIDAR jamming systems installed on your vehicles... I know I will.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. 365Stairs
    Member Profile

    365Stairs

    Alan004 - you have (5) people in agreement with you.

    On (33) posts - where you have (7) of the posts...you have a very low % of agreement and a even lower % of success based on what WSB posted.

    Save your time and $...do the speed limit..

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. alan004
    Member Profile

    I will NEVER BOW TO THE MAN!! Dead or alive!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. Hey fun with math time:

    The SSVI cost around 160 million. Let's say that the city only had to come up with about 100 million of the money. It's funded with a levy that lasts about 9 years. Ok so we get a cost of around 11 million a year to do the improvement. So let's just say that only 10% of the desire to improve the viaduct was so that they could do more speeding tickets. So that's about 1.1 million dollars in tickets. Lets also say that the city CLEARS $200 per ticket. So if the city then gives at least 15 speeding tickets a day, every day, for a year that will cover the 1.1 million dedicated to producing a better speeding ticket platform.

    Now I see that this does indeed make perfect sense!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. alan004
    Member Profile

    Okay, so my numbers are out on the funding... but here is what I do know for sure....
    Did you know that an officer in the SPD can earn up to $100K in over time/year just by writing in extra hours for court appearances... even if they do not show up. This I can confirmed. I went to the SPD fund raiser at the Space Needle back in 04/05/06 and talked to a dispatcher... how my eyes were opened.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. Hey more fun with math time!

    The pay rate for officers with more than 4.5 years experience is $40/hr. Overtime, presumably at time and a half, would put it at $60/hr. To make $100,000.00 in overtime would therefore take around 1600 hours. That's about 200 extra 8 hour days a year. And nobody notices if you don't show up! If I looked good in blue I would take this job.

    As a personal anecdote, my last ticket was for not having an updated year tag on my license plate (the tab was in my glove compartment on my registration, it did not impress the officer). I went to court to "fight" the ticket hoping the officer wouldn't show up. He was there. Actually he was a nice officer though and the judge cut the fine on the ticket.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. NFiorentini
    Member Profile

    NFiorentini

    I find this comment to be absolutely laughable...
    "Im tired of seeing bike cops and patrol cars handing out tickets on a sunny day like they were boxes of cracker jacks."

    REALLY? Please tell me where cops are handing out tickets "...like they were boxes of cracker jacks..." Because I'll be there with coffee, doughnuts, and heck...I'll throw in a massage or three.

    The truth is that traffic enforcement in Seattle is extremely relaxed, compared to other parts of the country. During the last year, I've *TWICE* driven up the hill on Admiral doing 35 mph (30 mph speed limit), past the officer with their radar gun, and everything's been fine.

    While I agree that there are areas where the speed limit does seem unreasonable, such as Admiral, and the W. Seattle Bridge, there are others where the speed limit is too low, such as SW Avalon Way east of Fauntleroy. There, the posted speed limit is 30 mph; that final bend approaching Fauntleroy...you will endanger a cyclist if you were doing the speed limit making the sweeping right turn.

    I'm cool with tweaking speed limits here or there; but I'd be even cooler if the SPD were much more aggressive in enforcing speed limits overall. People here...they drive like possessed morons! The fines here for moving violations do not deter people from driving safely; thus, they need to be substantially increased.

    In fact, before there's another bond package on the ballot, I would support quadrupling moving violation fines. Think of it as a "Drive-Like-A-Moron tax" for those who don't give a damn about anyone else.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. alan004
    Member Profile

    SDOT next week. On Monday morning. Ill be there.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. angelescrest
    Member Profile

    angelescrest

    Not with you Alan.
    Sorry. The nature of traffic flow on the bridge makes going any faster hazardous. NF: yes, quadrupling moving violation fines--people are diving insanely, angrily, bullingly!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. Not with you Alan. Please take a copy of this blog with you so that you can present your case objectively. I vote with previous posters who support padding the city coffers with those who choose to ignore the speed limits....bring it on!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. kootchman
    Member Profile

    This falls under traffic nullification. I hit the bridge at 2:45.... the driver choice "groove" was 55 mph ... and I followed suit. No lane changes... the only thing doing less was a Providence bus that was puttering up the hill. At those traffic densities, with that road, under those conditions 55-60 mph was reasonable. I have a car DESIGNED to do 90 mph ... plus. We have variable speed limits on I-90 with the overhead signs that use traffic conditions to determine suggested speed limits. Yes there are 90 year olds that are afraid of speeds over 20 mph... why did they all move to WS?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. Who's going to pay for those signs and related costs for installation, and monitoring of, such a system that you seem to be alluding should be installed along the Fauntleroy Expressway/West Seattle Bridge/Spokane Street Viaduct corridor?

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. And maybe those 90 year olds have been here a few years.

    Like 90....

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. alan004
    Member Profile

    Logic would dictate that most of the day 55 or 60 is just fine. As you cruise up the hill to Fauntleroy, one would lift ones foot off the accelerator and bleed energy down to nice steady 40 mph... in readiness to drift to 30 where posted coming into town.

    It would appear even continental drift is too fast for some of you. Some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Sorry to be blunt, but this ridiculous.

    Where was I... logic.. yes.. Kootchman, you have seen it with your own eyes and experienced it. There was no drama, no one flicking any one else off, no one getting run off the road in anger and SPD not there to annoy any one. How sweet is a blissful crossing over that lovely bridge and nice "Groove" of 55... or was it 59? :))

    You know the crazy thing? When the speed limit is eventually increased, all of this... how shall I put it, "debate" will long be forgotten about.. and most every one here that has argued against it will be driving at the new limit with out a care in the world.

    And yes, I will print all of this off for SDOT. They will not be able to breath because of laughing so hard at some or most of this. It will be the most fun they will have had for years... or they may take seriously, only time will tell.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Most of all it felt safer. Here in the land of pablum and surrender... the notion of collective intelligence is foreign. I would take the judgement of 10,000 drivers with thousands of years of driving experience over a politically polluted. revenue driven traffic engineering study. Go with the flow. Zen is too scary for WS

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. LOLOLOL...I'll call that last post "Bullcrap at 1:30 in the morning". Can't sleep? Come here and get a good laugh. Me thinks you just like to be argumentative.....yeah, we're all wussies out here, while you once again go against the popular. Yeah, you're a rebel, aren't you? :D

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. anonyme
    Member Profile

    The comparison of the West Seattle bridge to the Autobahn was especially hilarious.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. alan004
    Member Profile

    IT was not a comparison, as noted on the post, if you bother to actually read.. (difficult for some I know) I said equivalent to I5 or other interstates.

    ANONYME... hmmmm. Some one who likes to vent, but offers no name and barks from the shadows.

    Any way, it is of no matter. I will see what SDOT have to say and urge my point. When you see the new speed limit signs reading 55, next year, then you can thank me. :))

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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