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1. SpeakLoud
   Member Profile

   No matter what you think it is clear that MANY parents WANT Charter schools-now the WA PTA is asking for it to be put back to a vote!

   http://www.wastatepta.org/meetings/leg_assembly/1112_charter_issue_paper.pdf

   Posted 7 months ago #         

2. mehud7
   Member Profile

   

   That's not what the voters say.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

3. 2 Much Whine
   Member Profile

   

   Dang, I thought this thread was about the Washington Potholes Trout Association and an upcoming charter fishing trip. Unfortunately I don't have an opinion about charter schools. . . . just fishing charters.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

4. DBP
   Member Profile

   ( O-U-2Much! Is that a trouser trout I see dangling from your line? )

   SpeakLoud: Can you give us more background, please? I'm not going to download this PDF file unless you first entice me by:

   A) giving us a brief statement of your own opinion on the matter and

   B) explaining to us what's at stake here.

   Go ahead; don't be shy. I'll stick around to make they don't feed you to the lions on this one.

   As to my own opinion, I'm in favor of experimenting with charter schools. However, I prefer to see them as a way to challenge our existing public schools to do a better job. I would not want charters to be seen as a replacement for all public schools, and I would not want charters if the result was that poorer school districts were ghetto-ized.

   We already have enough of a problem with inequality in the school system the way it is. I wouldn't want to exacerbate it.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

5. SpeakLoud
   Member Profile

   Well thanks DBP for the invitation-I just thought it was interesting that this was just annonced on the news (King 5 last night) as it seems in several posts over the last few weeks charters have been mentioned here and there is a lot of resistance to them. I thought the fact that the PTA was asking for it was a strong indicator that there is actually support for it. I know MANY actual public and private school attending parents that want to see CHOICES beyond what the school system defines as choices-which are 'sure you have a choice once you submit an application and wait to see if you get in, but of course the school you 'want' to go to is paked because it is doing what we want schools to be actually doing but you'll be on the wait list so thats the choice we have for you'

   I want public schools to work for everyone-in every school and I will not accept excuses for why that is not possible.
   I think we have nothing to loose from having charters-really-could it be worse? You can't be afraid they will be better can you? Then the parents who want charters are happy and the district can focus on getting all the other schools up to a standard that we expect so they may provide what we all want them to provide.

   And charter rules (I think?)can be created at the State level and how they want them to be created-I know a lot of focus has been on whether or not they serve children with special needs or have a proportiante (or dis)number of students of color but I think all those things can be written in to the charter-there's no reason the enrollment in to these schools can not be balanced and VISIBLE which I know has been mentioned here-however having said that The Cooper School did a magnificent job of providing a connected community for children with English as a second language-I think a school that specialized in ELL and had the resources to make it happen might be highly desirable for those families-theres a lot to be said to teaching subject matter to children in their native language and allowing them to take tests in their native language too (afterall isn't assessment about showing what you KNOW not what language you speak...) then working on English aquasition over the years so that by the time they leave 5th grade they are fluent in reading and writing in 2 or more languages.
   Anyway-thats a whole other topic....

   Call me an optimist/dreamer/naive what have you (be nice!) but I like the idea of possibilities with charters-I don't think they have to prove that they are 'better' than traditional public school because they offer something 'different' to traditional public school-I think that's the point. CHOICE. And to add another flame to the fire I am in the camp that believes that 'success' is NOT measured by test scores but by the CULTURE of the school. OK OK OK also another topic.....I'll stop now....

   Posted 7 months ago #         

6. DBP
   Member Profile

   Here's a Gold Star for you SpeakLoud . . . ۞

   {Well, imagine it's gold. And a star.}

   It sounds like you've thought a lot about this issue, and I'm glad we got to hear your opinion.

   You do not strike me as an elitist who wants special treatment for your kids. You strike me as a person who simply wants to give every student more choices.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

7. SpeakLoud
   Member Profile

   I just wrote what I thought was a lovely post in response to you DBP but then I went to look at soemthing on the blog and I came back and POOF it had vanished!
   So here's the shorter (kind of) version:
   -Assumptions-never good.
   -Read this (if you want to)-but thanks for the gold star anyway!: http://www.alfiekohn.org Punished By Rewards.
   -Children and Education are my life-I give it all a LOT of thought.
   -And lastly, sadly I am not rich enough to be elitist (not that you have to be rich to be one but I think it helps!) but if I were (rich enough) I would be the do-gooder paying for the assistant in my younger daughters public school classroom (that would help everyone)because she has - shall we say a 'unique learning style' that dosn't always work too well with a class of 30+ (oh and that's not just my opinion it's the IEP's too) !!! Oops wanting something better-is that me being elitist again? :)
   Thanks again DBP for allowing a conversation-while I may not agree with everyones opinion I do respect their right to share it.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

8. DBP
   Member Profile

   Ha ha! Sorry SL. I didn't mean to give you a false sense of accomplishment with that gold star. Hopefully it won't scar you for life.

   8-P

   I had two kids in public schools: a boy at Highline SD and a girl at SPS. The two had very different educational outcomes, but this was due mostly to their respective attitudes, rather than to anything the school did or didn't do.

   My son was very easygoing and sociable as a student. He liked school, respected his teachers, and wanted to excel. My daughter, by contrast, was feisty, wanted to be in a gang, and saw school as a kind of prison that she should struggle against in order to prove to the world just how tough she was.

   Son is now in a good job with the City of Seattle. Daughter just got back from a very stressful tour in Afghanistan (Army Reserve) and is now struggling to raise two little girls on her own in a far-off city.

   So how does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, if the topic at hand is money for schools I would say that, yeah, all other things being equal, the more money we spend on our schools, the better. Unfortunately, all other things AREN'T equal. If our students — and by extension their parents — just aren't fired up about learning, then smaller class sizes and high-tech equipment aren't going to make that much difference. Conversely, if our students (and their parents) ARE fired up, then they will manage all right even with larger classes and fewer gadgets.

   Teachers are a constant; they should always be first rate and very fired up themselves. If teachers aren't fired up to teach, then they're simply in the wrong profession.

   In any case, it doesn't sound to me that you have any problem in this area, SL. However, I think there are still a lot of parents and students out there whose attitude toward learning and personal achievement has a loooong way to go.

   –David

   Posted 7 months ago #         

9. kootchman
   Member Profile

   Funny, when polled, over 70 per cent of parents think they have good schoosl. When tested, however, the schools suck. The voters did NOT overwhelmingly reject charter schools. The last vote, in 2000, King County defeated the measure 51% to 49%... and this was with all the WEA, NEA throwing millions of dollars of opposition ads and the death grip they have on Democratic politicians. In fact charter schools passed legislation, only to die on the Democratic desk of the governor and state legislations..agin, Democrats.

   "But lawmakers voted 26-23 for Senate Bill 5012, sponsored by Senate Education Chairman Steve Johnson. The bill would allow 70 charter schools over the next six years, but only five new schools in each of the first two years"

   So, since 2000 have the outcomes been better? No. WASL was scrapped because SPS couldn't pass. WASL it was proudly announced, was a creation of "professional educators"... who could not meet their own standards. Put it to a vote again. If SPS has done so much better since 2000 they have nothing to worry about, right?

   We are one of two states that are not giving options. Being unwilling to experiment, learn from others, duplicate other charter schools successes, ... is very "unprogressive"... the only one afraid of change is the teachers unions... they don't want you to be able to compare the moribund status quo to dynamic, student centered learning.

   Watch: Waiting for Superman
   Stupid in America

   Then think... and wonder.. does this sound like the Washington State pulbic school system to you?

   I will never vote for another increase in school funding until we get active reform. Throwing good money after bad is the WEA mantra... "more for us"..students? Who are they? 180 work days and 61/2 hours a day in the classroom...and tenure after two years.

   Posted 7 months ago #         

10. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    so..punish the SPS, punish the teachers...and in the end, you're punishing the children, too...let's just not give anymore money...let's make them do with what they have, or run it the way *I* say it should be run...then I'll let kids have books and supplies in the classroom again...yeah..caring and compassionate...honorable qualities all..

    Posted 7 months ago #         

11. kootchman
    Member Profile

    No Jan... good money after bad is not helping anyone. SPS is in dire need of reform. If you look closely at charter schools, they pay more in salaries, have merit pay, and in the most critical area, educating urban poor, do remarkably better. After 40 years of declining SAT scores, loss of international competitiveness, increasingly limited access to the top tier university, a literacy rate of 28% "proficient" by international standards... ya think something would change. In real dollars, inflation adjusted, WA state has doubled its funding of PS in the last 20 years...we still hear the same story... we need more money. We need education reform, choices, and a boldness of experimentation. Not paying more for the same. In a world of choice and options we get better outcomes. Sure works everywhere else.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

12. SpeakLoud
    Member Profile

    JanS I hear you and generally you would not find anyone more compassionte to the needs of children than I, but I have to respectfully disagree with you and say that the SPS 'system' and their marketing department (how much does that cost?)is using that exact idea, that kids will suffer, to manipulate us into giving more. The administration needs to fix what is happening at the administrative level, they do not deserve to be trusted with more. And honestly the kids will not suffer, they will still have books and pencils because it us, the parents that buy them, we are the ones that bring in supplies and we help support fund drives so that all kids have the neccessary items for class and we, the paretns would never allow kids to go without these items.
    Thanks Kootchman for that info-I had no idea it was close during the vote-I wondered why it was up so many times. Waiting for Superman is one way to look at things and I fully support charter schools but I also love NOT waiting for Superman which puts the notion of teacher empowerment and teacher/student focused learning at the center and not admin/test focus-it has wonderful examples of really GOOD things happening in public schools today-so why not replicate that? I would count some charter school as some of those really good things happening-there is no such thing as one size fits all in education-we learned that long ago...MOVE ON.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

13. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Speakloud...and what about those kids who come form less fortunate homes, where they can't afford the books, the pencils...? You may contribute, but it's not that way everywhere.

    I agree, the system needs an overhaul..but at what price? I have always agreed that tenure stinks, that testing as the most important criteria stinks. Do I have the answers? No.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

14. hopey
    Member Profile

    

    Why aren't the school board members being held accountable? They are part of the problem too, and one we can all do something about.

    Thoughts on education and the school board election from Cliff Mass:
    http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2011/10/transforming-seattle-public-schools.html

    Parts 1 and 2 of the 3-part charter school series on the Save Seattle Schools blog.
    http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2011/10/charter-schools-first-in-series-what.html
    http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2011/10/history-of-charter-schools-second-in.html

    Posted 7 months ago #         

15. DBP
    Member Profile

    OK, hopey, so who do you like for School Board, and why?

    Just summarize in your own words for us, please. I'd rather hear your opinion on this than go to some other blog where I'd have to wade through pages of marginally relevant material written by someone else.

    Also, can you please tell us whether you're a parent of kids at SPS? If so, what was your personal experience?

    Thanks.

    –David

    Posted 7 months ago #         

16. hopey
    Member Profile

    

    I post links to resources because others have the time to investigate, research, and write about issues which I do not. If you don't find the reading material to be valuable or of interest to you, then ignore it.

    I'm voting for Marty McLaren because Sundquist has been ineffective and I believe our schools will fare much better if the entire school board is changed out.

    I have a 6th grader in SPS, although this is only his third school year in SPS. He lived in another city previously. His father and I believe strongly in a public school education rather than private school. So far SPS is meeting his needs, though the system as a whole is far from perfect.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

17. DBP
    Member Profile

    OK, thanks hopey! Good karma.

    The fact that you have some skin in this game is a strong factor in favor of your credibility. When I hear that 1) you've got a kid in public schools and 2) that you're in FAVOR of public education, I automatically assign your opinion more weight — even if we disagree on specifics.

    You know, there are a few people on this forum who talk a lot of smack about stuff they don't have personal experience with. (Not naming names here, but . . . starts with "k" and ends with "m.") Of course, that doesn't mean these folks don't have a right to talk, and it doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, either. It's just that, in the grand scheme of things, I'm not going to give their opinion as much weight as I would give to the opinion of someone such as yourself.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

18. kootchman
    Member Profile

    The school board serve too many masters of idealogy, political correctness, intimidation by the WEA etc. It is inherently too racist to be effective. Our schools superintendant search has been nationwide. Why is that the only candidates are black? Even a random sampling by population would indicate the preponderance of administers are not strictly black. We have Asian, White, Latino, educators all across the country. Instead of drawing from the biggest possible pool of capable administrators, SSB, refuses to allow diversity. The talent search is discriminatory and we aren't getting the broadest choices available. See the fiasco on the sale of school property and small business contracting fraud. Both derive from a lack of diverse perspectives. SSB has become an enabler of a closed clique of self interested administrators and their appointees. Seattle will never admit it.. but the racial overtones are too apparent to ignore.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

19. DBP
    Member Profile

    Correction:

    Starts with "k"
    Ends with "n"

    Posted 7 months ago #         

20. kootchman
    Member Profile

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014325959_audit25m.html

    Uh huh.... there are a lot of pencils in there for the kids. A whole lot. DBP I have been in this community over 35 years... you? As active and engaged as any . You have no idea what personal experience I do or do not have.

    I will support Charter Schools for the betterment of the public school education system. It's is long past time to be brave, bold, and excited to have positive change.

    But directly to your point, the engagement of parents also means they need to feel effective in dealing with a moribund school system whose weight and ponderous size defy active and interested participation. The fans don't cheer for a losing team and we are on a forty year losing streak.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

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