according to Paul Krugman...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/opinion/11krugman.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212
now it's time to pay attention to the deal, not just that a shutdown was averted - and from where I'm sitting, a lot of the deal stinks..
Indeed. Where is the Obama from the campaign trail?
"Given a choice between a democrat who acts like a republican or a republican, the people will always choose the republican."
-Harry S Truman
Mr. President, there is NO compromise you could make with these extremists that will make them your ally. Please stop even attempting to placate them.
I'm baffled by this behavior on the part of the Democratic party in general, and especially Obama, as well. Most of us learn very early in life that when you're confronted by bullies, the bullying doesn't stop until you stand up to them.
I'm with Gore Vidal
We only have one political party in the U.S., and that is the property party, which essentially is corporate America, which has two right wings, one called Republican and one called Democrat. [source]
We're coming up on two and a half years of this Republican lite and "we just need to work together" crap from Obama. I don't think the man is stupid, so unless someone has some massive leverage on him, I have assume this is who he is and that he's getting more or less what he wants. He cut his political teeth in Chicago; he's no babe in the woods.
I'm reminded of these lines from R.E.M.'s song "Exhuming McCarthy
You're beautiful more beautiful than me
You're honorable more honorable than me
Loyal to the Bank of America
Look who bought the myth, indeed.
How efficient. This quote works well on two different WSB threads today.
"Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason." ~Author Unknown
I completely agree with Paul Krugman and sent yet another note to the White House to voice my concern. I can't belive I've started writing directly to the White House but for god's sake, this constant caving and not standing for any of the principles touted during the election campaign is getting on my nerves. I can go to sleep at night knowing at least I tried to make my voice heard.
And if you aren't terrified enough about what the middle class and most vulnerable of our society are being hit with, while the wealthy waltz away with the store, compliments of Republican bullying and Democrats bowing to their pressure, read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42536397/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/
redblack
Member Profile
quoth chrisma:
I don't think the man is stupid, so unless someone has some massive leverage on him, I have assume this is who he is and that he's getting more or less what he wants.
someone has massive leverage on him, and we're watching a coup d'etat, live on c-span.
it's not scandal-type leverage; it's simply power and money. although i imagine they could cook up a believable scandal and let public opinion take obama down if they wanted to.
my conspiracy theory is that bernanke, geithner, and larry somers were installed to protect obama from wall street - and to keep an eye on him. they and the corporate media will squash POTUS like a gnat if he's not careful. hell, big insurance could do that by themselves if they wanted to.
and congress is worse.
(until something changes, that is. and i mean like french revolution change. like jim morrison said: "they got the guns / but we got the numbers..." and i don't mean revolting against our government. i mean taking it back from the top 2% and seizing the assets they used to buy it.)
remember that clinton did the same thing, albeit in better economic times: he ran as a liberal, but he governed as a socially-liberal fiscal conservative once he figured out who owns the country.
Here's the thing about Obama . . .
I don't think he's trying to be remembered as The-Black-President-Who-Shook-Up-the-Status-Quo. Instead, I think he'll be content to be remembered as just The First Black President.
You know . . . kind of like how Jackie Robinson was The First Black Major Leaguer. Not a particularly great player, but cool-headed and predictable.
If it were Hillary instead of Barack, she would have caved on women's issues even more, just to prove that she wasn't some kind of radical you-know-what.
It's weird how that works, isn't it?
Totally backasswards.
redblack
Member Profile
DP: the funny thing is that i never consider obama's skin color. i judge him on his ability and his effectiveness.
but i know there are many who do judge him by his ethnicity; maybe obama himself.
Well, it was a big issue in the campaign, I know, even though it seldom came out into the open.
As I'm sure we both remember, the Far Right tried to characterize Obama as a radical. They didn't have to say "Black radical."* All they had to say was "radical." The rest was implied.
He'll take our guns!
He'll take our money!
He'll negotiate with terrorists!
OMG! He's a . . . a . . . a socialist!
Eeeeeek!!!!!
Faced with this, I think Obama had to give some people assurances that, once the election was over, he wouldn't do anything untoward.
*OK, well maybe Glenn Beck did.
it's our job to let the democrats who represent us know that we know we are being sold down the river..
and we don't like it.
keeps those cards and letters and emails and phone calls coming.
Putting one's effort against specific issues and the electorate by calling, e-mailing, and writing... A constructive use of ones time. Maybe even better than pontificating on a blog...
Comparing Jackie Robinson to President Obama. Race aside, probably not a fair comparison to President Obama at this junction. In 10 years Jackie batted a career .311 (50th all time), Rookie of year in '47. 1949 MVP. All Star - Six times. Hall of Fame inductee w/ 77.5% of vote in 1962.
For the good of the American people and the world, I sincerely hope that President Obama's statistics are as impressive as Jackie Robinson's after 10 years.
redblack
Member Profile
boba: most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time, so to speak. and some of us are employed, too! :) busy, busy...
but it's actually pretty easy when you have your state and federal reps in your email address book - if they don't have some dumb form letter email system, like the seattle mayor's office does.
CONTACTS for Local, State, & National Political Representatives/Offices can be found here:
http://www.seattlelwv.org/sites/default/files/try2011.pdf
Please Take the time to let them know how you feel about issues that concern you.
Please also pass this on to your colleagues
And if in addition to contacting your reps, you'd like to write to the White House... just google "White House" and click on "Contact us." Doesn't take more than minutes to exercise your right to speak out on issues. We're all busy and many of us work long and hard every week. But, it only takes a couple of minutes out of a day to speak out and our elected representatives do take note of the amount of contacts coming in on issues.
BTW, sending postcards is the way to go. Letters in sealed envelopes are sidetracked until it can be determined that they don't contain anthrax or something like that. E-mails don't get much attention and telephone calls go away as soon as you hang up.
Hand-delivering to Murray, Cantwell, and McDermott's Seattle offices is, from what I understand, one of the most effective ways to get your opinion heard, as they see you are willing to invest the time.
I read today that the original Republican demand was for a 32% reduction in the Administration's proposed budget. The final deal gave Republicans a 38% reduction. How is this compromise?
I don't believe that our government will acknowledge our concerns regardless of the media or the delivery system used. As an alternative, how can we target that 2% of wealthy power-holders in a way that hurts - really, really hurts? Simply not buying the products of those that monopolize them is not the answer, either. Ideas? Redblack?
TRUE grass-roots movement. Show up at your district meetings and participate. It won't take long before you are one of the regulars whose voice gets heard. When our representatives visit districts, they listen to the people who are there participating. show up regularly, volunteer, be a familiar face in your district and you will have more influence than just a single vote on election day.
casaboba...
your participation
undermines your criticism...
if it didn't matter
at least to you
why would you post?
JoB,
You miss the essence.
Don't Pontificate on the subject matter at hand.
ACT.
Thanks...
casaboba...
What is your problem?
Most of the people I have met from this forum who post on political matters also act regularly...
I personally have nearly a 50 year history of political action which includes pretty much everything short of holding office including working on voters drives and local, state and national campaigns.
And i know posters here who have done more than I.
Your assumption that those who post here don't act is little more than that.. an assumption...
If the personal statements made by posters on this forum over the last 3 years or so are any indication... your assumption is very wrong.
My health prevents me doing much more these days...but on an average day.. i personally log between 5 and 10 petitions, emails, letters or phone calls to my elected representatives...
i used to save all their letters back to me but i just topped off my yard waste with several years returns... it's just not that special any more.
i suspect i have more than earned the right to speak as though i know what i am talking about.
As for that call to action...
I have always found that if you want people who don't already act to do so..
that is is far more successful to lead by example
redblack
Member Profile
boba: what jo said. why would you assume that people posting here aren't politically active? me? i assumed the exact opposite.
if, on the other hand, you're merely annoyed that people post here, then quit reading the forums. or at least quit griping about people posting to the forums.
it's like that jesus feller said: "before you remove the mote from your neighbor's eye, remove the beam from thine own."
I believe most people don't vote and profess they do and the statistics (sadly) tend to support this.
I believe we live in a unique country with a definitive process for governing and for administering change and most people don't understand or follow it.
I believe most people gripe & snipe about government because it is easier then trying to constructively change it in the ways we have created/legislated.
I grow weary reading of people stating what they used to do; what they cannot do anymore; and what I & others should do.
I believe people should register to vote. I believe people should lobby for change through their legislators and ultimately create change through their right to vote.
I believe mindless banter between the right & left does nothing but leave one exhausted; mentally & physically. Leaving little energy or ability to reach consensus addressing the issue(s) of concern.
I challenge the conventional wisdom of this blog- space because I think it needs it. I read a LOT of paranoid stuff here. "The Uber-Rich are bad." "The Tea Party could take over." The Republicans are Evil" "The Democrats are MORE evil." "All CEO's are BAD." "They" are oppressing me." Blah, blah, blah...
Finally, I don't assume people are politically active on this blog. One wouldn't necessarily gain that insight from the vitriol and innuendo and pontification in many of the blog posts. And candidly who cares?
This web space & blog area are unique to our community. It is special. It has the potential to be VERY special. I just think we ought to raise the expectations and the standards of the dialogue exchange...
Maybe if we were more teachers than critics we would make more of a difference vs the collective principles we each hold dear?
candidly who cares? We should all care. If we don't talk (even mindless banter), I'm afraid we'd go down the tubes faster than we already are. People feel, they have emotion, and they get passionate about their political views. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as it's civil. And talking may lead to educating the uneducated, and that's a start.
You go on and on in threads about pontification...you do know a lot about pontificating, don't you?
And what do you mean by raising the standards? So, if someone happens to want to engage in the conversation, and they don't meet your standards would you be telling them to get lost? Who gets to be the decider? You? The Editor? Like he/she/they have time for that?
Politics is politics...and there's always innuendo...some of us can see beyond that. You continue to believe what you believe, and we'll continue to talk, vote, write to legislators, etc. :)
casaboba...
"I grow weary reading of people stating what they used to do;"
explain to me exactly what problem you have with nearly 50 years of civic service ? I'm proud of what i have contributed....
"what they cannot do anymore;"
and what exactly do you think happens when people become ill, old or disabled?
They can't do what they used to do.
Yet, you give people no credit at all for what they do in spite of limitations.
" and what I & others should do."
so why are you telling others what they should do?
" "The Uber-Rich are bad." "The Tea Party could take over." The Republicans are Evil" "The Democrats are MORE evil." "All CEO's are BAD." "They" are oppressing me." "
if this is all you are hearing in this conversation then you aren't bothering to listen.
"I believe people should register to vote. I believe people should lobby for change through their legislators and ultimately create change through their right to vote."
and you think you alone have come to that conclusion?
what the heck do you think those who post here on the political page do?
they post because they care.
I am pretty sure even those who disagree vehemently with everything i have to say bend the ear of their elected representatives regularly.
"This web space & blog area are unique to our community. It is special. It has the potential to be VERY special. I just think we ought to raise the expectations and the standards of the dialogue exchange... "
you joined the political conversations less than a month ago
and already have indicted those who post here as pontificators.
is this how you raise the expectations and standards on this blog?
I don't think so.
redblack
Member Profile
one other thing. these fora are also an important part of the political process. if people aren't aware of what's going on their community, city, state, and country, neighbors sharing news stories - and the discussions, pontificating, and arguments that arise therefrom - helps people become informed and make their own judgments on pretty much any given topic.
and if you can't ask an elected official, or find the information you're looking for, who better to turn to than your neighbors?
there's another poster here *cough*DP*cough* who likes to kvetch about people kvetching. and about our levels of involvement in protesting the wars. yet he seems to find time to be a prolific poster, even when standing on a street corner every sunday.
lastly, i would appreciate some benefit of the doubt from my neighbors. and if you think i'm not doing enough - even after telling you that i stay informed and write letters to my government when needed - just keep it to yourself. everyone determines his own level of involvement, and ultimately its no one else's business.
now, do you want to discuss the issues, or the people discussing the issues?
Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry if I offended you.
My intent was to encourage some self- examination amongst posters. You have aided me in mine.Thank you.
casaboba..
and thank you ...
all of us are much more..
and in some cases... much less
than we seem
hang out for a while...
anyone who makes people think about what is important is an asset to the conversation.
there are too many vital issues begging for airtime
to waste time on personalities
mindless banter is so much less invigorating
than challenging conversation...
That darned Paul Revere! We are getting attacked by the Red Coats, and he decides to go for a ride in the countryside, yelling at his neighbors!
I reiterate an earlier post Casa, which seems to have evaded you:
"I feel fora such as this one is our modern Platonic academy, a meeting of individuals of varying degrees of expertise and differing opinions. These discussions are, in fact, an integral part of our civic growth.
Some people are rabble, some are rousers. We are a species of specialists."
Is an educator an unimportant part of our community, since all they are doing is disseminating information?
Talking about politics IS being involved in politics.
Dawsonct
Nothing evaded me; but thanks for trying to help amplify redblack's earlier comment.
I agree with you. Stimulating free speech is good. Intelligent debate is good.
How many different people really read this blog banter? How many different individuals who do are enlightened or moved? I wonder what the numbers really are?
I guess one could count the threads, summarize them by topic and count the different contributors and wager a guess I guess...
Talking about politics IS being involved in politics.
—Yes, but only if you take the next step and actually DO politics by getting involved in something.
Otherwise, talking is just that: talking. In the worst case, talking can even be an excuse for NOT doing anything, and there are plenty of people who use it for precisely that purpose.
Present company excepted . . . of course.
I would never presumed that this is the highest level of political involvement by anyone who posts here, and can't figure how anyone seriously could even come to that conclusion. I assume if someone has enough interest to talk about politics (or anything), then they probably involve themselves in it in some other way.
When I talk to fellow cooks about food, it helps me become a better cook, and hopefully I benefit them as well.
It simply doesn't make ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER to presume talking negates action.
For me, reading/posting on a few forums takes maybe a total of half an hour out of my day. some days a bit more, many days a lot less. That leaves me a whole hell of a lot of time to actively pursue my interests.
Thank you DP for expressing this sentiment more succinctly than I was capable of previously.
Anybody else watch Obama's speech? I think our missing president may be found - keeping fingers crossed, he gave a more forceful defense of the middle class than I've heard from him in a while.
It simply doesn't make ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER to presume talking negates action.
I think you misunderstand us, dawson. No one here has said that talking negates action, have they? As for me, I believe quite the contrary. Reading, discussing, and reflecting, if properly done, are all key to the process of getting involved and staying involved.
So really, I'm with you. I believe that talking is a good thing.
Moreover, my definition of "getting involved" in politics is a very broad one. Do you eschew party politics but attend neighborhood planning events, for example? If so, then you already are involved in politics on the most fundamental level.
Do you stay away from protest marches but volunteer to take disabled folks on errands and doctor visits? If so, then, in a way, you're already ahead of the protesters, because instead of looking to government to create a better world, you're doing it on your own!
(Does that negate what the protesters are doing? No.)
Anyway, I hope I've clarified my own position on the matter.
Fingers crossed for Mr. Obama, who ain't heavy, but who is our brother.
elikapedia..
i confess. i avoided watching his speech because i didn't want to feel disappointed...
i get that having heard it you think i should take my skeptical self in hand and give the guy a listen :)))
for you.. nearly anything ;->
charlabob
Member Profile
I didn't listen to his entire speech (will tonight) but the snippets I did hear were (to me) wildly schizophrenic. He seemed to "defend" the middle class and ALMOST mock the R "plan." OTOH, he didn't employ the economic truthiness I hoped to hear; once and for all debunking the idea that worrying about the deficit was exactly the thing NOT to do in the middle of a recovery.
He did talk about taxes as a way to curb the deficit too. People love to remind "us" that we have to tighten our belts and stop spending when we're running out of money -- no one seems to mention the number of us who find ways to raise income in the same situation. I guess that would prove the wrong point.
FWIW, his speech was broadcast live on MSNBC *and* on Fox. That doesn't happen very often. Maybe it will affect the quality of their commentary.
elikapedia...
thanks to jigger's link i just read the transcript.
great campaign speech for kicking off his re-election campaign...
now lets see if he actually accomplishes any of it..
charlabob...
i suspect visions of Jimmy Carter run through his head every time he contemplates "economic truthiness".
more yes we can...
we will see.
charlabob
Member Profile
JoB you're probably right about the visions of Jimmy Carter -- and I agree -- whoever is alive 40 years from now will be conjuring up Jimmy Carter (energy independence, solar panels on the white house ...) AND Barack Obama as missed opportunities.
Here's the video link to the speech. Runs approx. 43 minutes.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/13/president-obama-s-framework-4-trillion-deficit-reduction
waynster
Member Profile
Hmmmm the last time I heard a sitting republican anything said cuts on this magnitude it cost the middle class a small fortune. Oh wait I did get a whopping 400 dollar rebate that sent the debt up billions and now the house GOP budget head Paul Ryan wants to gut medicare just as they tried in the 60's. Why to cut the wealthiest individual and corporate rates from 35% to 25%. Once again the middle classe will pay the for it. Why not cut the middle class tax rates and rise the wealthiest taxes rates? Sorry can't do that they won't get elected not rich enough....
Charlabob..
the real test of Barak Obama will be his second term
if he gets one..
Jimmy Carter told us the truth we didn't want to hear
and he not only didn't get a second term
the press trashed his presidency
Ronnie took his solar panels right off the White House
wouldn't want to leave any kind of legacy behind
Still.. Jimmy Carter's legacy has grown substantially
while Ronnie's has become the stuff of myths and legends...
We will see... won't we.
Had he been president..
we would have required a lot more than great speeches from Dr King
waynster...
the cynic in me agrees with you
this one is likely to cost the middle class a fortune too...
i suspect this will be a lot like healthcare reform where single payer didn't even get a seat at the table...
a lot of wall street guys will figure this out for us...
along with how to siphon off more middle class wealth...
you know.. that stuff you and i fondly think of as our hard earned retirement funds :(
redblack
Member Profile
casaboba: you didn't, you didn't, and you're welcome.
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