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(52 posts)

Teachers Union holding us all hostage.


  1. localman
    Member Profile

    I know this topic may start a riot but the teachers union is holding all our children and wallets hostage and I for one am sick of it. In the past I have voted for every education issue that has ever been put forth. No more. I have had it. My kids are in Seattle public schools and both get very good grades without doing a single night of homework. What is up with that.

    We can not continue to throw money out the window in hopes that it will do some good. Teachers will contiue to teach to the least common denominator and until there is real reform I am done.

    It is tough all over. Everyone is having a trouble. Why in the name of (insert deity here) can't the teachers union truly put the needs of the students before thier own. Enough is enough.
    My advice. Not one more cent until they agree to some real reform.

    I know this is going to enrage some folks and I apologize for any stress that this may cause but I know there are many out there who share this opinion and I just wanted to give it voice.

    Please vote NO.
    Regards,
    Localman

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  2. teachers have no choice but to teach to the least common denominator as long as we are measuring their progress and dolling out education dollars according to the WASL test results...

    If you want your kids to be challenged.. it would make sense to give the school dist more money.. not less.

    giving as little as we can has gotten us where we are today.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  3. wouldn't it be better to give our schools enough money to function and hold them accountable for teaching children the skills they need to succeed?

    from Cliff Mass

    http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  4. Mrs. Full Tilt here. I'm a teacher, although not in Seattle so I am not familiar with their contracts. I have no interest in name calling, I am asking because I am really curious. Why do you think it is the union causing the problems? Are they pushing for a no homework clause in the teacher contracts? What else about teacher performance is upsetting to you?

    In my experience, most of my time and energy goes to classroom management and grading, which leaves little time for differentiating instruction and planning and grading of homework. I now work at a school with much smaller classes and smaller overall population, and that has made a huge difference. Smaller classes are easier to manage and I have time to work individually with students to make sure they are getting what they need. My teacher union is constantly fighting the district to keep class size down and limit how many preps we are assigned. Without pressure from the union some principals would spread teachers way too thin.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  5. You said it Mrs. FullTilt. We really need more specifics here, localman. Are you saying that the school system is terrible because there is no homework at night??? I don't know if that's the true measure of a good school so I'd like many more specifics of the trouble here.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  6. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    Spending less on education and more on incarceration hasn't really done our country much good over the last thirty years. Maybe we need to rethink the policies that have brought us to this point.
    -
    The 40's-70's saw the greatest focus on the public education system in this country. I for one don't believe it is simply coincidental that it was followed closely along by the largest collective intellectual leap and economic expansion in our Nation's history.
    -
    We should not only put more money into public education, but we should also publicly fund post-secondary educations such as college and vocational school, maybe on a sliding scale depending on public service or need (I.E. major: education over business; rural/inner city teacher over wealthy suburban school dist.) We will have a better Nation and World for it.
    -
    Admittedly, if you took Mercer Island H.S. and moved it complete 4 miles across Lake Washington to Rainier Beach, we wouldn't end the year with an unprecedented plethora of National Merit scholars. The societal modeling is so deeply ingrained that improvement will take some time to be visible. One thing for certain though, is the current method of bleeding our public schools dry, and shoving more students into classrooms to work with equipment that is outdated using textbooks that are actively being stripped of anything that conflicts with the faright-wing christianist agenda: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/the_rehabilitation_of_joseph_mccarthy_texas_textbo.php
    is certainly NOT working and we should do all we can to immediately change course.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  7. what dawsoncourt said:)

    there was a right turn in education in the United States about 1970 that didn't bode well for results.

    i graduated in 67... my brother graduated in 76... with comparable GPAs from the same high school.

    When he went to university, i had to teach him how to write a term paper.

    9 years but a world of difference in educational results.

    i will leave it to you to connect the political dots.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  8. FWIW...localman must have just gotten his ballot for the school levy election coming up. What people don't reaize is that this is NOT money IN ADDITION TO...it's money that needs to be voted on to REPLACE the levys that are ending. So...voting no will not help anyone, it will only take away, and make things nigh unto impossible to accomplish. Please READ things in their entirety before you jump to conclusions. People hear taxes, and immediately say that we're over taxed (and say no) Perhaps so, in some areaas, but without this levy, what the schools have now will just deteriorate. And, no, my child is almost 30, no longer in the public schools, but that doesn't keep us from being concerned about the youth that is now going to our schools.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  9. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    Our schools need funding, and that's almost a completely seperate issue from their quality, especially regarding the current ballot questions.

    We also need a constant call to innovation. Programs that embrace not just fundamentals but also inspriing new concepts in education, new student responsibilities, new and daunting challenges in our world...these will be the programs that spur the students to lead our schools forward. And it will be the students who always decide the success of the system.

    Localman, your kids sound very intelligent, and I hope that they're using that intelligence to challenge the school system to live up to its potential. I hope they're organizing study groups or research trips or community service events. I can't express how valuable I think the students are who take up those responsibilities, nor how crucial they are to our own future.

    The teachers also have to step up to guide this process, and many do. But it seems the downfall of our unions is that it encourages our teachers not to compete against each other. All too often, the unions seem to reward length of service rather than quality of service. Why should someone who cannot inspire the students still remain employed just because they've been unispirational forever?

    And so teachers can also lead...by renouncing their tenure, their seniority.

    If our schools are to improve, it takes everyone's efforts. We each have a piece.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  10. Yaardvark..

    this idea of renouncing seniority sounds great..

    until you realize that a teacher with 20 years experience is going to be a lot more expensive than one with a recent college degree and therefore less likely to keep their jobs in an environment where the bottom line is seen as more important than results without the protection of seniority...

    yes, there are some career teachers who lose their enthusiasm for the job of educating our children... but more often than not it's due to the lack of investment by parents than to a lack of interest in kids.

    labeling career teachers deadbeats won't hide the lack of investment we are making in our children and our schools...

    sadly, we are getting what we pay for.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  11. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    Here, Here, JoB! Parents too. We all have a part.

    But as far as teachers' compensation goes... Twenty years of experience is not the same as twenty years of success. If there's a teacher who can do a better job for less expense than someone who's had 20 years to prove themselves....why on earth would you not keep the cost-efficient, inspiring teacher?

    When I ask teachers to give up their tenure and seniority, I'm asking them as well to give up on the idea that they're going to make more money just because they've been around a while.

    An inspiring teacher who's been around a while, though, well that's a different story. That's a solid investment and great mentor for the younger teachers to have.

    This isn't asking for anything more than the way most successful businesses and non-profits have always operated.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  12. Yaardvark...

    so you are willing to invest your life in a career where you will never make more than you are making right now .. and by the way.. you aren't making enough to rent in the district you work in.. let alone buy?

    you may be that rare individual.. but they are very rare...

    if we respected the people who teach our children enough to pay them a living wage and respected them enough to provide them with a reasonable working environment (lower class sizes and reasonable equipment) and respected them enough not to blame them when our kids don't learn what we think they should and respected them enough not to hold them responsible for managing our children's behavior..... my guess is that we would have more qualified and inspired teachers.

    if you throw out seniority, you throw out the only protection for those inspired teachers who have invested a lifetime in our children... and replace it with some arbitrary changing set of standards that determine their pay.

    Sounds to me like that will result in paying teachers who teach to the tests more than teachers who inspire kids to learn.

    We already have that on a public level.. and it isn't working for us..

    why would it work any better when it comes to providing good teachers for our children than it does providing good schools and challenging curriculum for our kids?

    The fact that we aren't even in the top rankings in the world for math education shouldn't be cause for a joke on Jon Stewart.. yet it is.

    we need to fix something fast.. and hamstringing the few good teachers we have left will only make the situation worse.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  13. Even if we all agreed to keep the good teachers and can the bad teachers, we still don't have a common idea of what makes a teacher good or bad. If it is test scores, every teacher of high risk kids will be labeled bad and all the "good" teachers will leave areas like White Center for jobs in higher income neighborhoods. If it is graduation rates or grades, you have the same problem and teachers will be tempted to give away grades. I get that we need to monitor teachers, but how?

    Some people think you can walk into a school and easily identify the great, inspirational teachers vs. the stinky ones. The truth is, that awful, boring teacher might be another kid's favorite teacher ever. Personalities and learning styles are endlessly varied, so you never know who will inspire who.

    I think I am a damn fine teacher. I teach at a school where most students have some serious challenges and are behind in their education. We do some amazing work and help kids take charge of their education. I think we are the best school in the whole world, but we aren't going to be winning any standardized test prizes anytime soon. So how should you judge how good I am?

    Just some food for thought. And if you want to label me a bad teacher based on test scores, at least have the decency to go buy some ice cream so I can pay my mortgage :)

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  14. Mrs full tilt..

    i will buy the ice cream
    even tho i think you are a damn fine teacher :->
    i like it that you pay your mortgage..
    and your hubby makes mighty good ice cream.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  15. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    Get your ballots in today.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  16. thanks for the reminder.
    mine is on the kitchen table...
    i'll get it in today.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  17. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    Thank you approximately 71% of Seattle!!

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  18. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    Wellll, those who voted.

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  19. the only citizens who count in this case are those who cared enough to vote.

    so THANK YOU

    Posted 2 years ago #         
  20. MarkAngello
    Member Profile

    Just noticed this thread when localman posted on another. I agree with his OP that public service unions like the teachers union are the problem, not the solution. Did you know they are essentially a tool of the liberal democrat election machine... selling mass voting for the gravy train of easy benefits?

    Did you know that they don't pay for their health care and other benefits the way we real working people do? I am glad some states like Wisconsin are getting the guts to fix this.

    By the way, I prefer private schools including religous schools and homeschooling. They don't cost the taxpayer anything and they deliver superior results. That's a win-win deal for everyone but overpaid unions and liberal democrats.

    Competiton helps keep schools honest. Tax credits for private schools are a great idea as in Arizona. Public schools won't reform. Defund them!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. elikapeka
    Member Profile

    A bridge is missing its troll

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. Markangelo...

    "Did you know they are essentially a tool of the liberal democrat election machine."

    ah.. the benefits of indoctrination.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    Did you know that they don't pay for their health care and other benefits the way we real working people do? I am glad some states like Wisconsin are getting the guts to fix this.

    who's "we?"

    over half of the people working in this country have employer-provided health care.

    not to mention the dependents who are also covered by those working people's employer-provided health care.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    and to address the original year-old post, seattle public schools spends around $6500 per student. the "libertarian" red counties spend a lot more per student, and they receive a lot more state tax money than the blue counties. as a matter of fact, these liberal union democrat blue counties are supporting the republican counties.

    but we can't talk about that, can we?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. The idea that teachers aren't "real working people" is good for a laugh.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. jamminj
    Member Profile

    Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

    Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit!

    We can get that for less than minimum wage.

    That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).

    Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

    However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

    LET'S SEE....

    That's $585 X 180= $105,300

    per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

    What about those special

    education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an

    hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

    Wait a minute -- there's

    something wrong here! There sure is!

    The average teacher's salary

    (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days

    = $277.77/per day/30

    students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

    Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators.

    Update: I'm glad that many people have shown their support for teachers by reposting this note, but I am not the original author. I received this as an anonymous chain letter email, and I wanted to share it to support the public workers of Wisconsin.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. lucky chick
    Member Profile

    Please don't feed the trolls :)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. RarelyEver
    Member Profile

    RarelyEver

    so, from the foreigner's perspective.. again.. aplologies to those of you who've had it with the in-my-country-this-is-how-we-do-it stuff *grins sheepishly*.. BUT -

    i don't know enough about this country's history to know the answer to this, but - why don't teachers make way more money here? honest question, not trying to be mean. where i grew up having a son or daughter who became a teacher (grammar school, high school & university levels) was comparable to having a doctor or lawyer in the family; being a teacher is considered very prestigious. you make a lot of money and get the summers off.

    i don't know why it is so different here.. can someone explain this?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. rarelyever..

    because here teachers were traditionally women who didn't "need" an income to support their families...
    or at least that's the story...
    and literally true until fairly recently...
    like.. in my lifetime..
    since teachers couldn't be married and have kids and still teach:(

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. F16CrewChief
    Member Profile

    F16CrewChief

    Please excuse my ignorance here, but what does a teachers union have to do with an education bond or levy? I ask this question to the original post.

    As for homework, I have two kids in Madison and one in Gatewood and all three have homework every night. They do some of the coolest projects too. I don't know, I'm missing something here in this post. I think our underpaid and under-equipt teachers are doing a fantastic job in a horribly run school district. The union is not the problem, its the admin that's the problem in my opinion.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. jamminj, thanks for that. I'm betting that a lot of commenters won't read the whole thing. They'll just think it's another statistic, and think it boring. It's enlightening.

    Defund public schools? That's crazy. And, no, not all private, religious run schools are superior. I know, I had my child in both.She's grown now, but I will relate that the worst of her school years was one spent in a private Christian school that I paid for. Teaching about witches, and satan, and scaring second graders. The teacher even brought up abortion in class - to kids in second grade! Of course, then my child comes home and wants answers from me..mom, what's an abortion. Mom, how do you get pregnant? Second grade, for goodness sake.

    And therein lies a problem with me. None of that is appropriate in the class room, IMHO. It's indoctrination of the worst kind, and undermines parents, parents' values, and what is appropriate for parents to discuss with their kids, not the teacher.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. F16CrewChief...

    Psst... don't cloud the issue with actual facts...

    localman and Markangelo have a not so hidden agenda...
    to privatize education so they can indoctrinate our children at our expense...

    LOL..
    they missed a few not so small stats..
    what plays well in the hinterland doesn't play so well in the big city where education is actually valued..
    as in.. it's difficult to deceive educated people with fuzzy not so logic ;->

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    lucky chick: yeah, the whole problem with ignoring them is that there are a bunch of people in this country who believe that drivel. the kind of mentality that says that it's okay to attack other working-class members of our society (out of jealousy or whatever) can't go unchallenged.

    ever.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. lucky chick
    Member Profile

    Indeed, Redblack. It gets exhausting. Thanks for taking it on here.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. I think professional sports players should be required to return 10% of their salaries to their state education systems, just to say "thanks" to all the teachers who got them through the education system, to the jobs that now pay them so very well. They only work a few months a year too, by the way and the really big sports teams often enjoy taxpayer support on the fancy new stadiums we all chip in to build.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. Tde.. excellent point...

    ***

    and BTW.. those union bashers on Faux..
    O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck...
    all union guys...

    how is that for irony...

    it's high time people who believe that drivel use some of the education they received at taxpayer expense to scratch below the surface.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. MarkAngello: Member since 2/24; location: Chicago. Interests: religous freedom, freedom of speech, proselytism.

    We should also add: Hobbies: Trolling, watching Faux News, avoiding reading newspapers (or anything as difficult as the NY Times).

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. Hmm...I work for a private, religiously affiliated educational institution...and I still have employer-subsidized health care...what was the point, again?

    Maybe it's because I'm a librarian, not a teacher. Hmm.

    Somewhat pertinently, I read this this morning. Yeah, it's Daily Kos, but read it anyway. Want to get rid of teachers? Just make the working conditions more and more difficult until they can't do the job anymore. That should work out well.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    thanks for the link, dm. that's pretty sad.

    then again, i don't know how parents are supposed to buy x-boxes and games, smart phones with plenty of air time, and computers with cable internet connections (aka facebook machines) for their kids if they have to pay all of these stupid taxes - just so some overpaid, lazy, lowly civil servant can have a job.

    (i know everyone's on edge, but i was being sardonic, people.)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. MarkAngello
    Member Profile

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/28/us-wisconsin-governor-idUSTRE71R51620110228

    Dems and union freeloaders want to cost Wisconsin taxpayers... $165 million!

    Another good reason to vote for anyone but a democrat.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. lucky chick
    Member Profile

    Why do conservatives need to try to dumb everything down so much? "Union freeloaders!!!" "cost taxpayers $165mill!!!" "Death panels!!!" "Job-killing health care bill!!!" It's demeaning to have to respond to such outrageous, simple-minded hyperbole, but there exist in the drooling masses out there many, many people who parrot what they hear and don't bother to look at the issues beyond the surface. What a waste of time when we could be working on really educating the American public and looking to solve the problems.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. MarkAngelo...

    Am i missing something here?

    The governor of Wisconsin..
    who should have been thinking of the welfare of his state all along
    instead of pursuing a private agenda to benefit the Koch brothers..
    can easily make sure his state meets the deadline to refinance...

    all he has to do is encourage state republicans to pull his union busting measure.

    He started this fight..
    Don't you think it is his responsibility to end it?

    blaming it on the other guys doesn't work here either...
    but you keep trying.... i really admire effort.. even misplaced effort.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    jo: republican presidents and both parties in congress ran up chronically large deficits and debts for 30 years and have nothing to show for it.

    the republican response while all of that money was trickling up and out?

    [crickets chirping]

    then a democrat gets elected and does the exact same thing (only within our borders) and suddenly it's "oh noes!! socialism!! starve the beast!! we can't pay for health care for unions!! that don't make no jobses!!" as if all of those tax breaks created one damned job in this country in 30 years.

    okay, i'll grudgingly concede that a lot of lobbyists suddenly found work.

    stunning.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. redblack...

    "stunning"

    it is, isn't it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    What do you have against democracy and the American people Mark?
    Beats the hell out of the NewRepublican wet-dream of a kleptoligopoly, where only the already rich and powerful are free to enjoy the liberties our Founders bequeathed us.
    Even if you DO hit the PowerBall someday, they aren't going to let you (or Scot Walker, for that matter) into their very private, tightly controlled club.
    You are, however, of use to them as one of their pawns.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. Caduceus
    Member Profile

    Caduceus

    I have not read every post, and perhaps my questions are already answered, I apologize for this.

    I have recently been in public school system here in Seattle. Now I know very little of politics, or unions. I have no claim for wisdom in these subjects and I am not claiming to have such.

    However there is a substantial problem. Well I guess technically speaking there are numerous problems that feed off of eachother.

    I'm gearing toward tweny-one years of age, and I exited the public school system in my sophomore year of highschool in favor of local community college. I have never had any issue with any class. I have never scored less than an A on a test in my entire life. I have never scored anything short of exemplary on the WASL, yet I have failed numerous classes due to absences. That I will not get into specifics as it's irrelevant; I will note that the reasons for the absences were not for delinquent purposes, quite the opposite in fact. But I did show up on every test day.

    I can not recall any piece of homework where I learned something I didn't learn form reviewing a textbook, that was common sense or that wasn't already covered in class (again pointing out I was hardly at a lot of these classes). An in-class it was not at all rare to spend weeks if not MONTHS on a single benign topic. In 8th grade for example at Madison Middle School we spent well over a month and a half on positive and negative integers. Which is disgustingly easy to understand. In order to figure them mathematically you only need to know a handful of rules.

    In this environment with kids who do not take their education seriously, their disinterest grows ten-fold. They know what they're learning is easy; you do not need a high IQ to understand the numberline goes forwards and backwards. And in a way I think they resent that so much time is spent on such sophomoric things and I know from personally speaking with these people that they feel insulted and as a defense they think of school as a joke; so easy why bother trying?

    I scored amazingly on the entry test at a local community college and was put into a trig review class for my math credit. I was totally knocked on my ass. We spent at tops, two days on a section in the book, and would spend a half-hour of a day reviewing what we learned that week. Keep in mind a section of a mathetics text book covers multiple things, and is broken into parts; we'd spend two days on what is actually 5-6 topics. I was grossly unprepared because I was never put in good habits. I managed a C with tutoring, barely. I loved that I was learning something; that I wasn't a child sitting with other children but I was a student paying money to be there and was treated as such. On the flip-side of that coin I was grossly dissapointed that I was so unprepared and underachieved so vastly.

    At public school it feels like you're required to go to class simply because no one wants to do anything with you and you have to be somewhere, and no one wants us hoodlums running the streets! But the focus isn't on teaching, it's about giving you something to do. Not to challenge you. Not to educate you. Not to prepare you for the world. Just so you're not running around shooting eachother and consuming narcotics.

    Now there are variables involved. Individual students, teachers, schools as a whole, communities etc. I acknowledge this and I am not pointing a blaming finger at any one thing in particular.

    My girlfriend was at a catholic school, a rather expensive one. And the most popular and highly respected people (by students and staff)at her school would have been miserable at any public school. At every public school I've ever attended (from here, to Montana to New York) reading is "gay", "stupid", "pointless". Over-achieving or achieving at all is negative. "You study? Clearly you're a faggot." "You did the homework? Can I copy it?" That is the attitude young people have developed. And a lot of parents from my experience don't take this attitude seriously. "My kids are not like this." Yes, they probably are. I have never experienced such a gap in communication as I have with parents and children at public schools. The only group of parents I can think of that had a vested interest and a "no bull-sh*t" stance towards their children's education were immigrant parents. Funny enough they were also the only consolidated group of parents that did NOT have the "my children's sh*t doesn't smell" syndrome, and their children tended to succeed. Tended to get scholarships and go off to research schools where they also shone and didn't miss a beat. Even though they were suddenly thrust in a fast-paced environment where 1on1 time with the professor might as well be unheard of and they could only rely on themselves.

    This was not at all present at my girlfriends school. Sure there were the delinquents. I remember a guy we knew got caught with the last of a joint in his pocket. He was instantly expelled permanently. I know kids from WSHS who have been caught in the act of selling narcotics from prescription pills to cocaine and were suspended for a week. And they were praised upon their return. For what reason I'm still not sure. But the worst scrutiny felt at this particular school as a junior/senior is elitism based on what college you plan on attending or are able to get into. Sure the rich kids would play the "I have this new high-fashion dress and you don't, and my skin is more orange then yours" card but it was pale in comparison to the college selection process. I can't remember a single person at any public school even mentioning they wanted to go to college. Ever. Keep this in mind as you read.

    If you were to give anyone from a public school "The Brothers Karamazov", "The Man and the Sea", "The Alchemist". They would just stare at the first page blankly and then put the book down to go play xbox. And then plagiarize a "book report" from sparknotes later. Probably from their smart phone at the beginning of class.

    In fact the last three English teachers I had at West Seattle Highschool weren't even qualified to teach English. Two of them had backgrounds in history and the other was a gym teacher. And asked me "What is 'A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man' about?" As I was reading it before class.

    Again I don't know anything about funding or lobbies or unions. But even in this ignorance I think the problem goes far deeper than something so shallow as adults playing politics.

    Regardless of this does anyone have the time to explain, or give links to these funding/lobby/union issues? I have to admit, my curiosity is perked.

    But there is a enormously startling gap between public and private schools.

    Maybe it's the parents. Maybe it's the responsibility that private school is so amazingly expensive. Maybe it's because public schools cater to the lowest common denominator. Maybe it's funding. Maybe it's the unions. I do not know the answer but I wager it's a combination, a toxic, awful combination that is setting thousands of kids up for failure. Kids who don't know better or aren't clever enough to circumvent "the system".

    And I don't think politicians are going to close the gap for us.

    I rambled a bit. I apologize, sorry if this is disjointed and hard to read!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. Caduceus...

    there are two studies i think you would find interesting.

    they are not funding/lobby/union issues per se but still .... i think you will find relevant to your questions about public education..

    the first looks at the connection between a mother's education and individual academic performance. They concluded that the disparity in performance could be measured by the time a child was 3 and that disparity did not essentially change regardless of childhood learning programs instituted later.

    the second looks at poverty... the number one indicator of school performance..

    I apologize for not looking them up for you this morning... but i suspect you have both the ability and intention to find them.

    another group of papers you may find interesting look at the lack of connection between testing and student outcome measures in .. i think.. sweden... the top performing school system in the world.

    they rely on student interest...

    last...and i wish i remembered exactly where i saw this... there is an open letter from a teacher contemplating retirement that is illuminating.

    If i remember correctly... i posted it in one of the teacher related threads here.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. Caduceus
    Member Profile

    Caduceus

    I am not sure if I found the article(s) you were referring to about the mother-child discrpency but I did come across this PDF, which is proving to be enlightening from skimming the first three chapters. http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/parenting-and-educational-achievement.pdf

    I have a small idea of how poverty affects a school thanks to 'Waiting for Superman'. A rather fantastic (however biased) documentary on such a subject in Washington DC. I will continue to research this however; perhaps I'll be the one to discover the answer. Who knows? :P

    I came across this, read the whole thing.
    http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/parenting-and-educational-achievement.pdf

    Not sure if it's what you were speaking of but what I have concluded based on what was presented, along with the knowledge that Sweden has outstanding educational performance is that school for them may be a chore, but a necessary one. They didn't take the tests seriously, but clearly they are passing. Unlike here, where no one cares and fails miserably. They were not anxious perhaps because they were confident in their ability to do well. While people here aren't anxious because perhaps school in it's entirety isn't that serious, and they don't think of the consequences. Or perhaps the motivation to succeed is absent entirely from the majority (here)? I am afraid I cannot speculate beyond this as the study does not provide enough information; nor would I be able to speak for tens of thousands of young people.

    Still searching for the retirement letter. Thank you JoB I'm glad WSB still has some helpful folk around.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. Caduseus...

    thank you for the link..
    i have only skimmed it but even a short skim shows it's value. i will go back later to dig deeper.

    obviously, this isn't the work i was referring to... but that's the fun of searches... you don't always bump into what you expected to find.

    it's one of the benefits of sharing...

    the other is that reading the same material doesn't guarantee the same take away points :)

    what i took away from the studies on the swedish school system was that if you concentrate on learning... and everyone learns more if they find the material interesting.... test scores follow.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. Caduseus...

    you did say something else that i have been pondering for some time.

    You mentioned that the will to succeed may not be present..

    I am now watching grandchildren.. bright grandchildren from educated successful parents... work their way through the school system and have been frustrated by both their attitudes and what i see as their lack of commitment.

    I have come to some conclusions that i share as nothing more than the beginnings of theory.

    These are smart kids with some pretty high expectations. I don't think they lack a desire to succeed so much as they lack the necessary skills.

    what is see is that although they have not learned good study habits, they have learned to work the system and will pretty much continue to do so as long as they can get away with it.

    I have a grandson who is about to learn the hard way in his first year of college that charm and/or bullshit don't always compensate for procrastination... and not from the educational system.
    I sincerely hope he doesn't pay too high a price for that lesson.

    I think we have placed too much of a priority on getting what we want from the system and not getting what we need.

    I think this is true whether we are speaking of education or workplace or government or social systems or ...

    I think it is possible that we have placed so much emphasis on getting the prize with as little effort as possible that we have devalued the prize.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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