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(76 posts)

State Spending

  • Started 1 year ago by hooper1961
  • Latest reply from Admiral2009

  1. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    Between the 1999-2001 biennium and 2011-2013 the State Budget has grown about 1.7 times about $45 billion to ~$75 billion. State spending on Education THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTION has lagged growing about 1.6 times.

    State spending on Health Care on the other hand has grown an outrageous 17 times and has come at the expense of funding the MOST IMPORTANT STATE FUNCTION THAT IS EDUCATION.

    The data is available at the following link:

    http://fiscal.wa.gov/SpendHist.aspx

    It is clear that the State needs to increase funding for EDUCATION. Health care spending has grown way disproportionate (17 times growth) to other state spending and thus is the place to look to cut.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. hoop

    your either or propositions are self limiting.

    spending for health care has grown because people have lost the jobs that are the way America is delivering health care.

    the system works reasonably well when employment is high..
    not so well when employment is low
    or when an employee gets sick enough to lose their job

    which could also be said for the state funding that is dependent upon an individual's ability to spend.

    isn't it time you looked for cost cutting measure that don't leave individuals without basic food, shelter, health care and education?

    and advocated spending on programs that put people back to work so they didn't have to rely on the state for health care?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - i have advocated for infrastructure spending. AND I am advocating for EDUCATION. It is absolutely obscene why State spending has grown 17 x's on Health Care and Spending on EDUCATION (that is the most important State function) has not even kept pace with the growth in the State budget. 17 x's growth is flat out not reasonable and has come at the expense of everything else!

    A program that has grown at a rate of 17 x's is clearly a program that needs to be cut!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. hoop
    it's obscene that so many people can't access their healthcare through their employment
    either working a part time schedule so their employer doesn't have to pay the most basic benefits
    or unemployed without access to healthcare

    cutting the program won't change the need
    in fact.. the current need is bigger than the current program

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. btw hoop
    this is what happens when we advocate for a corporations bottom line
    and not for the people employed by them

    you don't like the size of the program?
    stop supporting corporations that push their costs off to the public
    either by outsourcing
    or employing only temporary workers
    or employing workers part time to avoid paying benefits.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. I can't believe the nerve of any intelligent person who argues the need to provide adequate funding for schools. Hoop is right , this shoudlo be taken care of, maybe at the risk of less money for other causes.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. charlabob
    Member Profile

    charlabob

    Health care spending goes up because we don't regulate the drug/device/etc. cost because our legislators are in their pockets. Their PR machines, which we pay for, do a great job of diverting our attention from that to "poor doctors" and "fat sick people" and "poor poor people." Bite the bullets (different discussion), curb the gouging, and then worry about the rest of the cost issues. I suspect you'll be surprised how much they are the result of good ole unfettered capitalism.

    Over and out...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. Hoop, thank you for providing back-up data. I am impressed.

    Wouldn't it be nice to live in an either/or world? I am pretty sure that educational outcomes will plummet if we kick all poor kids off basic health, but I don't know, that is just the complicated reality I live in.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    in 1980 the population of washington (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/planning/wtp/datalibrary/population/WSPopulationGrowth.htm) was about 4.1 million in 2010 it was 6.7 million. interpolating the population in 2000 was about 5.4 million; the chart indicates a bit more population. From the chart about 5.8 million in 2000 and 6.8 million in 2012. A growth of 17% (6.8/5.8)

    the CPI factor a $1 in 2000 buys what a $1.34 does in 2012 (refn. Inflation Price Calculator).

    Thus accounting for population and inflation the State spending to remain at 2000 levels should have increased by a factor of about 1.6 (1.57 (1.34 x 1.17)). Actual state operating expenditures increased by a factor of about 1.7 (1.68 (74.7/44.5 million $'s).

    State spending has increased faster than population and income by about 6%.

    During this time period spending on public schools has not kept pace with the general increase in State spending that is 1.7 times more in 2012 than in 2000. Public School spending has increased only about 1.5 times (16.4/10.7). Higher Education spending about 1.6 times (11.7/7.3).

    If public education spending simply kept pace with increased government spending 1.7 times the State should be spending about $18.2 billion on k-12. (10.7 million x 1.7) the 2011-2013 budget is $16.4 billion that is $1.8 billion less. Same exercise for higher education shows the 2011-2013 budget at about 0.7 billion dollars less than it should be.

    Combined education spending is $2.5 billion less than it should be based on simply keeping pace with the growth in State spending.

    In reviewing State spending data there has been an explosive growth in health care spending from about 0.6 billion in 2000 to $10.2 billion in the 2011-13 biennium that is a growth rate that is 10 times the basic growth factor of 1.7. No other state expenditure increase is even remotely close to this amount.

    As my data shows Education funding is ~$2.5 billion dollars short of keeping pace with the general state revenue expenditure increase. Education is the foundation for tomorrows economy and well being of the State citizens and MUST BE FUNDED FIRST before any other government spending.

    Shifting $2.5 billion of spending from health care to schools would leave $8.7 billion dollars for health care spending (10.2 - 2.5 billion) that is still 14.5 times the amount spent in 2000.

    The data shows that even factoring for population and income State revenues have increased faster by about 6%; yet State spending on Education has not kept pace and is short $2.5 billion dollars. The State's spending on Health care spending has grown at a rate 10 times faster than State spending in general and has adversely effected Education spending and other State functions.

    Education is a higher priority than Health care and shifting $2.5 billion from Health care spending to Education is flat out appropriate. This still leaves Health care spending at $8.7 billion dollars that if properly expended on preventative care (shots, immunizations et al) is sufficient.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB I provided the data that clearly shows State spending has increased accounting for inflation and population growth.

    State spending on Health Care (to my knowledge no where in the State Constitution is this a State requirement) has crowded out all other State Spending. Education is the foremost State responsibility that the State has failed to adequately fund as I have demonstrated. The reason for the education funding shortage is because of the States exorbitant growth in spending on Health Care that is so far out pacing all other State spending it is absolutely incredulous.

    JoB - where is your response when the data is clearly provided?

    Personally I believe it is the responsibility of people to buy insurance for the unforeseen and if you do not purchase insurance and you need a service tough luck! The service needs to be denied unless you can prove you can pay for it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Hoop
    Do you really think calling me out increases the validity of your argument?

    I pointed out that you would be better served looking at the causes for the increased need for state subsidized medical care and you respond with more proof of the need and think you have made an argument?

    I don't think so.

    Do you know what was missing from your stats hoop? The number of people who still need medical care but were cut from the program last year and the increased spend down.. that's expenses paid out of pocket.. for those who still qualify.

    Cutting the budget for medical care in this state isn't the answer. Changing the way medical care is delivered so that the individual cost is lowered and coverage for all increased is.

    Even you would benefit from that.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    I do not disagree that the delivery of medical care needs fixing that would lower medical insurance premiums for all.

    No where in the constitution is the State paying for medical care noted and eliminating state payment for medical care for adults who choose not to buy insurance is an option.

    The $8.7 billion dollars provided after Education Spending (the States most important job!) is fully funded (as compared to 2000 spending levels and growth in State spending) is a substantial amount of money. If the State was smart the money would be used for only cost effective preventative procedures and not pay for high cost low outcome procedures.

    The $8.7 billion is a substantial sum of money that is 14.5 times what was spent in 2000.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - I have shown State spending on education is short $2.5 billion dollars and and identified a logical location in the State budget to reclaim this funding. Education is priority number one; if you have a better DOABLE option to find the $2.5 billion let me know?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. The #1 priority needs to be CAPITALIZATION CONTROL!
    What kind of state is this, when just anyone can SPEND VALUABLE CAPITALS without civilian oversight or auditing? We need one of those CAPITAL MANAGEMENT firms to take over and stop the waste!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JKB - please provide an example; back up data. I have been told to provide back up that I have clearly provided on this matter.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
    para 2.1.1, bullet point 16.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    My solution is to implement a state income tax.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. How about a voluntary state income tax, together with gift cards valid against the sales tax? For every $1 paid in income tax, you get $1 on your sales-tax card. The point of course is to make the payments deductible on federal taxes.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    WorldCitizen - the voters have soundly rejected an income tax. The State has failed to maintain education spending at the level it was in 2000; by my analysis $2.5 billion dollars short. This funding needs to be provided for in the next biennium! This is the States number one mandate and must be done. The future well being depends on an educated population/work force.

    I have identified a program that has grown far disproportionate to all other State programs that could be cut to provide the $2.5 billion short fall. I have requested people to provide an alternative option that is doable. WorldCitizen identified an income tax but this option fails the "doable" requirement. I am still waiting for a better alternative than the one I have identified?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. Hoop
    For those who still qualify for state medical it's not a program... it's the difference between life and death

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    the State has failed to fully fund Education; by my calculations by $2.5 billion dollars. This funding needs to happen first. Education is Priority #1.

    i made a suggestion on how to fund it and still await a doable alternative option.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    i still have not heard a better option to fully fund education that is the States #1 priority.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. In YOUR opinion it's the state 's #1 priority - let 's make that clear...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    my understanding is that its written into the State Constitution to be the top priority.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    From the State Constitution

    ARTICLE IX
    EDUCATION

    SECTION 1 PREAMBLE. It is the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children residing within its borders, without distinction or preference on account of race, color, caste, or sex.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    and further I see no where in the State Constitution any requirement for the State to pay for Health Care. The pertinent section of the Constitution.

    ARTICLE XX
    PUBLIC HEALTH AND VITAL STATISTICS

    SECTION 1 BOARD OF HEALTH AND BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS. There shall be established by law a state board of health and a bureau of vital statistics in connection therewith, with such powers as the legislature may direct.

    SECTION 2 REGULATIONS CONCERNING MEDICINE, SURGERY AND PHARMACY. The legislature shall enact laws to regulate the practice of medicine and surgery, and the sale of drugs and medicines.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    so JanS it is written in the State Constitution that Education is the paramount duty of the State. No where in the State constitution did I see the State being required to pay for Health Care.

    Thus it is not only my opinion; it is written into the State Constitution

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. Hoop..

    Has it occurred to you yet that we could choose healthcare over a new stadium?

    Or that publicly funding the treatment of drug resistant epidemic illnesses might be in the public good?

    Apparantly not because you are a one note rave.

    Maybe just maybe you should find a new source of reading material

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    i do not support taxpayer $ for the stadium and never have; thus why do you keep bringing this up?

    in today's (Sunday 01/12/2013) Seattle Times an article identifying the State is under court order to properly fund schools.

    (Note: a correction) in 2000 the State spent $5.7 billion on medical costs (I see that the State spent money under DSHS; thus I have to admit to the need for a correction) and in 2012 it has ballooned to $10.2 billion. This is a growth rate of 1.8 versus the statewide population and inflation adjustment of 1.6

    Thus Health Care spending is about $1.1 billion higher than it should be based on State population growth and CPI adjustment of 1.6. And is faster than general government growth (1.7) by $0.5 billion.

    The fact still remains far too much State resource (about 1 in seven $'s; 14%) is being spent on Health Care. I fully agree that the delivery/payment is flawed. But so is the expectation that someone who does not purchase insurance should be entitled to the full array of medical technology. Basic services make sense (preventative care, shots, immunizations). High priced cancer medications NO, procedures that on average extend a persons life a few months NO, people who fail to follow doctor's orders (one warning) then NO.

    Education funding is the paramount duty of the State and by my math (this portion is correct) the State needs to find $2.5 billion dollars to fund education at the same level it did in 2000.

    I suggest that health care spending be capped at 10% thus $7.4 billion, the 2012 biennium proposes to spend $10.2 billion on this item. Thus freeing up $2.8 billion.

    The State Constitution (backed by a court order) mandates the State fund education. My proposal provides the required money. I still have not heard a viable alternative proposal by anyone.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    what is the alternative? the State Constitution identifies Education as the paramount duty of the State. The State is failing its paramount duty to pay for items not required by the Constitution.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    what's the alternative? i'm sure i could come up with more than one workable solution if i bothered to give a crap. how about local income taxes? how about different ways to fund schools?

    there are all kinds of things in the state budget that aren't in the constitution. want to axe them all?

    see that forest? it's full of trees.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    income taxes have been resoundingly rejected by the voters

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Regardless of them being rejected by the voters in the past, state income taxes would solve the problem. Even California voted to raise their taxes and now have a balanced budget.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. that little tax no-one wanted to levy on millionaires would have solved the problem.

    god forbid we should tax the rich to pay for care for the poor

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    job - the people of this State know once pandora's box is opened even a little watch out.

    worldcitizen - the legislature can submit a ballot measure to the people of washington to increase revenue and let us vote on it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. so hoop..

    you looked through the entire state budget and couldn't find anything recourse for funding education than cutting healthcare for sick people?

    i thought not.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. The Statue of Hooperty

    "Give me your tired, your poor....."

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - the State could have employees pick up 25% of their health care costs that is more in line with the private sector.

    I'm open to hearing other options; that are viable. I am sure there are some tax loop holes that can be closed.

    Education has been short changed by the tune of $2.5 billion since the 2000 biennium.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    hey, the hoop.

    you ever bother to ask the private health care industry WHY health care costs taxpayers so much?

    i didn't think so.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    there are a myriad of factors that raise the costs.

    too many doctors conducting every test in fear of lawsuit raises costs. fee for service instead of payment based on outcome are also factors.

    cost shifting to compensate for people that don't pay their bill (in all other industries these people are not provided services)

    another factor is that too many people (you would call them the lucky ones with generous health care insurance) are insulated from the true cost of the services and thus many end up over using them. co-pays and making patients cost share to some degree could make patients smarter in their usage. this is why high deductible plans are more cost effective insurance, they reduce over use of services!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    the hoop:

    do you work for the health insurance industry?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - NO I do not work for an insurance company. But I believe high deductible plans with co-pays make sense to make the consumers aware of costs.

    I also understand the cost of fear of lawsuit causes the system that foists more tests and procedures than necessary.

    I also see doctor's and clinics getting expensive equipment and then need to use it to pay for the darn thing regardless of the actual need for the equipment. Essentially duplicate equipment with the clinic down the street. The fee per test payment systems greatly adds to the cost.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. Hoop Dude. Keep it up. You got 'em on the ropes. It is incumbent upon them to provide alternatives. You have shown what the state demands.

    Their emotional responses do not stand up to your line of thought. It would be nice if they said they didn't know, and that maybe there is an imbalance.

    World Citizen, if you want a state income tax start a referendum. But, at least you proposed a solution.

    From my point of view, it shows me what little regard the Baby Boom generation has for other generations. Our kids are our future, but you keep stealing from them. (hey, I kind of liked that last diatribe, well not really a diatribe. How about a somewhat negative opinion.)

    And of course the Preamble for Washington State sums it all up. PREAMBLE. We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution.

    Why do I feel the Supreme Ruler of the Universe would run screaming from the Health Care vs School funding Debate?!

    I do have a bone to pick with the state's funding of our schools. They run very lean (too much so) at my son's school and other schools in the area.

    Besides the teachers (I am including Librarian, part-time counselor, and music instructor), there are very few other staff people.
    I might be missing a few but I was questioning some of the staff.

    One office employee
    One Janitor
    Four or six Special Ed aids
    One lunch person.

    The school depends on parent volunteers for monitoring lunches and recesses, and for a lot more than I know.

    These employees don't make bank. So where is the money going, and how is it divided up? I have yet to look into that, but give me time.

    Keep it up Hooper.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    HMC RICH - and you did not mention the College students being squeezed by sky rocketing tuition. These students our the future yet many end up starting $10 of thousands and some more than $100K in debt.

    I have not heard an alternative from redblack or JoB. WorldCitizen identified an income tax; this idea has been soundly rejected by the voters.

    The State Constitution clearly identifies Education as the Paramount Duty of the State

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. hoop..

    you left out one little component in your explanation of high costs.. profit.

    profit for the health care center, profit for the administration of the health care center, profit for the billing center for the health care center, profit for the company that processes the insurance paperwork for the health care center, and profit for the insurance company .. and that's in a fairly simple transaction.

    could it be that the administrative overhead is siphoning off health care dollars?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - yes there is administrative costs and profit in insurance premiums. And I would not disagree that some insurance CEO get paid too much.

    However you still are avoiding the issue that the State Constitution identifies Education as it's paramount duty and the courts have told the State to properly fund education accordingly. By my math $2.5 billion is needed and I have identified a portion of the State budget that saw increased funding beyond that of general State spending that is not a State Constitutional requirement that could be cut to properly fund education immediately.

    I still have not heard a doable/viable alternative from anyone.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    You have from me. Have the legislature implement a state income tax. Cutting your way to a balanced budget is not usually the best answer. Especially when it comes at the expense of the public's health.

    Just because the state's current revenue stream is insufficient to keep up with healthcare expenditures doesn't mean we should not fund the healthcare system to keep it from becoming unviable.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    WorldCitizen - citizens of washington resoundingly rejected this option. Thus something will need to be cut to fund Education that is required as a part of the State Constitution. Please identify what you would cut?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Where does it say spending on education has to keep pace with general state revenue expenditure increases?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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