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(50 posts)

Ranting same ol' song and dance(dogs)

Started 3 months ago by Jiggers
Latest reply from mtnfreak

Jiggers
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I'm not going to make any friends here with the post because I know that there are a ton of dog owners. There are more dogs here in Seattle than kids. But go ahead and label me as a dog hater if you want to I really don't care. This post is directly to owners of places that serve food and drinks weather its a coffee house or beer pubs. I know you browse here. I believe that it is against City code to allow animals into your restaurant, unless, it is a service animal. There are several places that better get it right because there are owners who don't wash there dogs and they bring them in nasty smelly, and tick infesting pets who I've seen scratching themselves. Tie your dogs up outside to the bench like they did with horses in the earyl West. It is beyond me how no one has not been shutdown yet. Now you can tell me to go f* off!

I meant that there are patrons who don't wash their pets...:(

Posted 3 months ago #
me on 28th Ave SW
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Sorry Jiggers, not gonna tell you that. I agree with ya.

Posted 3 months ago #
thee
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... and while you're at it, YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!

Posted 3 months ago #
cwit
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Have you addressed your concerns with the business owners or managers?

Posted 3 months ago #
todd_
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Jiggers, you and I do not agree on sports but I totally agree with you on this one! :)
.
For me, it comes down to: it's the law. I bugs me when people are ignorant or just think they are above the law. Not very civilized or mature behavior.

Posted 3 months ago #
JimmyG
Member Profile

Huge dog lover here.
But I don't want them in my coffee shop, especially with the poor leash control most dog owners exhibit. So far my dog survives just fine tied to the post outside while I get my espresso to go.
I feel for the small business owners that if they came down hard on the no dogs rule would lose a large percentage of their sales. I've had this conversation with a few owners, and that's their dilemma.

Posted 3 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

I'm a dog owner and totally agree with you, Jiggers. As far as I know, it's also against the law to tie your dog outside a business, or anywhere on or with access to public property.

Posted 3 months ago #
sam-c
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I am a dog owner and I agree with you. then again, maybe I'm just hating on my dog. I've managed to teach this dog many things, except "no beg!" he doesn't listen to that, drives me crazy and ruins any coffee/ outing.

shoot, he doesn't often get to the regular, on-leash park on really nice days because I can't deal with him pulling on his leash to try and see what every-one has in their picnic basket.

just wanted to give you re-assurance that there is one less dog out there to get dog hair in your food/ drink, trip the waitress, whine, bark, etc. (the kid can take care of those annoyances, lol, j/k- kid is on a tight leash- actually, we don't eat out much any-more)(even then, we last went to eat at proletariat. we couldn't hear eachother over the beastie boys anyway- it was actually kinda nice)

Posted 3 months ago #
dbsea
Member Profile

I've seen 'em in the Thriftway. Doesn't mean Mgt. approves, but I've seen em in there. Almost as bad as all the jacka**es out there driving with their dogs in their laps.

Posted 3 months ago #
Ms. Sparkles
Member Profile

I love dogs, I love seeing them in coffee shops, and wouldn't mind sharing a booth in a resturant with them (I prefer a dirty dog in a place of business over a dirty transient on the buss any day).

So I am actually happy (where Jiggers is probably horrified) that the ADA rules on service animals have become so libral that anyone can bring any animal anywhere and say only that the animal is a "Service Animal" - a business owner can't even question what service the animal provides. HOWEVER - there is an out...if the animal is mis-behaving then even an obvious service dog can be removed from the business.

So - do you dislike the animals because they don't behave (I support that), or just because they are "dirty animals"?

Posted 3 months ago #
2 Much Whine
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Dogs can be found in restaurants and coffee shops all over the world and I just don't see people dropping dead from their "filthy germs." Guns, on the other hand, kill people every day and that's just fine because we have rights. Too bad it wasn't just a typo in the constitution. I'd much rather have a dog in a restaurant than a gun. Just my opinion and I know others are entitled to theirs. Jiggers, perhaps your horror is misplaced.

Posted 3 months ago #
HunterG
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Jiggers - there are new stipulations on current Service Animal Laws which are more strict effective a few months ago.

Service animals MUST have tags on them or the owner of the said animal MUST have the appropriate documentation on their person whenever they bring their service animal into an establishment. The owner of this animal MUST show appropriate papers if asked by staff, they cannot just say "it's a service dog."

Not that I would want this business to get into any trouble all it takes is a call to the health department.

Posted 3 months ago #
metrognome
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HunterG -- I don't believe that is correct; if you can specify what local, state or federal regulations you are talking about, I would be happy to look them up.

The federal rules regarding 'service animals' under the ADA changed about a year ago; however, the concept of requiring 'approptiate papers' is contrary to the very spirit of disability civil rights laws. Here is the pertinent info from the latest Dept of Justice circular:

"When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."

and

"Establishments that sell or prepare food must allow service animals in public areas even if state or local health codes prohibit animals on the premises."
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.pdf

This is based on a federal court decision here in WA, Grill v Costco.

However, WA state law is different; under disability civil rights law, whichever law gives persons with disabilities more rights prevails (i.e. the federal restricting of service animals to dogs or miniature horses does not apply in WA as state law does not include this limitation.) There are at least 3 state laws that deal with service animals; I don't think they have been revised recently to include the restrictions you mention.

Posted 3 months ago #
Jiggers
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My concern is that anyplace that serves food and drinks to humans is at high risk when pets are brought in. There are laws in place so that it minimizes liability issues. There is no horror with me and dogs. I actually love animals and have volunteered and worked in a zoo for summer credits in high school cleaning up pooop and and scrubbing down living stalls. I also had two dogs and two cats at one point in my life. It comes down to health code issues. When I see ticks jumping on my hand. That's a big red flag. I don't want a tick drowning in my coffee. I'm not paranoid or have to justify my concerns.I actully wish I could own a dog right now, but my current situation won't allow me to do so.

Posted 3 months ago #
DBP
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metrognome, did you just say something about miniature horses ?

Uh-oh. Think I feel a joke coming on . . .

Posted 3 months ago #
JoB
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jiggers...

the real irony in your posting is that many people feel exactly the same about the homeless person who is nursing their cup of coffee in order to stay inside where it is safe and warm.

i would think that any place that was welcoming of dogs would be equally welcoming of the homeless.

perhaps you could consider them the equivalent of the hobo sign on doors that would feed transients during the depression.

Ms Sparkles...

the dirty transient on the bus may wish they had the resources to take a shower as much as you wish they would take one.

One of the biggest shocks for me when I began volunteering at Nickelsville was how difficult it is for the homeless to find someplace where they can shower.. even if they are willing to pay what we would consider a small fee.

Yes, there is a center downtown that offers free showers, but the demand far exceeds their capacity and the privacy and security in those showers is limited.

I was unable to find a single organization in West Seattle or White Center that offers free showers for the homeless.

I did find one that "looks the other way" for a limited number of transients... and our local community centers will allow the homeless to shower there for a fee ranging from $3 to $5.

perhaps we could ask our local community centers to print up shower tickets that could be purchased and passed out.

I suppose it could offend some people and those tickets would inevitably become part of the underground economy in which those who would prefer drugs or alcohol or money for food would trade them with others at a discount...

~ there is a side of me that really likes the idea of an underground economy based on reselling shower tickets ;-}

Posted 3 months ago #
karen
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I believe there are showers at Camp Long. I don't know more than that as to cost, winter hours etc, I just remember seeing shower stall there.

Posted 3 months ago #
LisaM
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I highly doubt these dogs are "tick infested" or that you are seeing ticks jumping on your hand - ticks don't even exist this side of the mountains! Even fleas are pretty uncommon and most dogs are treated for those.
The dogs I see in these places are well cared for and clean.
Have you gotten ill as a result of being near these dogs in an establishment?

Posted 3 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

Back to the original topic. Yeah.. I guess dogs in Seattle are immuned to ticks and fleas. Or maybe, just maaaaybeeee..... the coffee or beverage is too strong for me and I am just seeing things and no can handle.Yep...Like someone pointed out, all it takes is one phone call to the right source.

Posted 3 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

OK, here goes.

A mini-horse walks under a bar . . .

[ . . . ]

*************************************************************************************

Get it?

It's like, you're expecting me to say: "A mini-horse walks INTO a bar . . . " —right?

But I actually said UNDER a bar.

Get it? Ha ha ha!

See, it's like . . . because the horse is a MINI horse, he's all dinky n'stuff. And it's not a BAR bar, but it's like . . . a METAL bar for horse jumping or something . . . and not the kind of bar that YOU were thinking I meant . . . and [ha ha ha] this tiny little horse is all like . . .

. . . so he can just walk under it instead of . . .

uhmmmm . . .

Oh never mind.

Posted 3 months ago #
me on 28th Ave SW
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I own two dogs myself. This issue I have with dogs being in stores, coffee shops etc is that some people are very, very afraid of dogs. Those people should not have to worry about an excited dog jumping on them, a "scary looking" dog (one of my dogs is called that all the time) near them while they are going about their business being consumers. I love my dogs, but despite grooming they shed like crazy! Many people are allergic to dogs. Those people should be able to go somewhere and eat without worrying about dog fur. I love my furry friends but no matter how well behaved they are they are not and never will be humans. In SOME ways they are better than humans, but that's another topic LOL.

Posted 3 months ago #
JoB
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jiggers...

i would like to pass along a lesson i learned from my dogs...

biting the hand that feeds you may have unintended results...

Posted 3 months ago #
pattilea
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I agree that animals should not be in restaurants, and stores. So many are allergic, and afraid of dogs. I don't think it is cute, I would ask a manager or owner to please remove the animal, and it's owner if need be!

Posted 3 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

I knew what I was getting into when I decided to post this topic. The bottom line is that some dog owners just won't follow the law regardless when it comes to public health and safety. They will remain defiant. JoB... What are you implying? I know you have two beautiful dogs yourself.

Posted 3 months ago #
jissy
Member Profile

I have a toddler that is severely allergic to dogs, like, keep the epi-pen handy in my purse allergic! And bless her heart, she wants to pet every one of them.... it is a crazy lesson in self-control for a 3 year-old not to. We try to keep the temptation down to a minimum by avoiding places we know will have dogs around and that means businesses we're aware of that don't enforce the public health laws. I'm you're biggest "BUY LOCAL" fan, but there's many a place in West Seattle we don't because of this very thing.

Posted 3 months ago #
miws
Member Profile

DBP, for a moment there, I thought you were laughing your ass off.

Apparently, though, you were actually laughing your miniature horse off!

Mike

Posted 3 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

>> I knew what I was getting into when I decided to post this topic.

—Jiggers

Say WHAT ??!!

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! . . . . . . . HA!

(What Blog did you think you were on, dude?)

—David "Many Horses" Preston

Posted 3 months ago #
metrognome
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me on 28th SW -- nice to see a dog owner who doesn't feel the need to inflict their ootchy kootchy pooch on the rest of society.

D'MH'P -- too bad you didn't get a pic of a mini-horse wearing disposable diapers. I bet it will be a memorable experience the first time you go into a restaurant and are exposed to this phenomenon first hand ...

Posted 3 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

DBP: another case of blogging drunk again? I see an intervention coming....

Posted 3 months ago #
HunterG
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Am I a lawyer, no. Do I like to read law in my time off, no. Would i ever ask anyone what disability requires them to have a service animal, no. I'm glad that is a law.

BUT, individuals with service animals ARE required to have appropriate certification for their animals.

Why are people against Public Health codes on this issue - it's not about allowing service animals anywhere, heck I'll let your service animal in my bathtub. The REAL issue is we KNOW not every single person in the establishment in question has a disability that requires a service animal for F*ck sake.

Posted 3 months ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

wrong. I'm not a lawyer either, but it is a blatant violation of every single local, state and federal civil rights law to ask for documentation that an animal has been 'trained' to be a service animal. Why? Beyond the basic civil rights issue, because professional training is not required; one can train one's own animal to perform a task. Just because lazy, unscrupulous able-bodied people take advantage of this requirement doesn't change the law. There have been several well-publicized complaints in the Seattle Times regarding local businesses whose employees have violated that provision.

Here it is again, in plain English:

"Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."

Again, I challenge you to provide some documentation that supports your claim. I went through the city's, the county's and the state's civil rights offices' websites and they are all quite clear that it is a violation of the law to ask for documentation.

Posted 3 months ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

ok, time to lighten this up a little bit ... here's an oldie but goodie that addresses HunterG's point:

Two women were out for a Saturday stroll. One had a Doberman and the other had a Chihuahua. As they walked down the street, the one with the Doberman said to her friend, "Let's go over to that bar for a drink."

The lady with the Chihuahua said, "We can't go in there. We've got dogs with us."

The one with the Doberman said, "Just watch, and do as I do."

They walked over to the bar and the one with the Doberman put on a pair of dark glasses and started to walk in.

The bouncer at the door said, "Sorry, lady, no pets allowed."

The woman with the Doberman said, "You don't understand. This is my seeing-eye dog."

The bouncer said, "A Doberman?"

The woman said, "Yes, they're using them now. They're very good."

The bouncer said, "OK, come on in."

The lady with the Chihuahua thought that convincing him that a Chihuahua was a seeing-eye dog may be a bit more difficult, but thought, "What the heck," so she put on her dark glasses and started to walk in.

Once again the bouncer said, "Sorry, lady, no pets allowed."

The woman said, "You don't understand. I'm blind and this is my seeing-eye dog"

The bouncer said, "A Chihuahua?"

The woman replied, "A Chihuahua? They gave me a #$@&^% Chihuahua?!"

Posted 3 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

I wouldn't be so sure that the person you think doesn't have a disability is just fine. We don't all come equipped with walkers, wheelchairs or dark glasses. There are a lot of people walking among you with invisible disabilities. Some of them have dogs whose only job is to alert their human companion that they are about to have a seizure, collapse or other impending attack.

i have chronic fatigue syndrome and have a little shiba who lets me know when i am about to collapse and guards me until i am aware enough to move on.

she was not trained to do this.

When i have been laying down too long, my other shiba will start barking at me to get up.
If I am not ok, she gives him the what for and he backs off.

I haven't taken either dog to service dog training and don't take either dog into stores with me because they have issues.. one with people.. the other with dogs..
but i could legitimately take the female shiba anywhere with me because she performs as a service dog.

You just never know, do you?

Posted 3 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

jiggers...

my comment had nothing to do with my dogs...

but with the fact that the place that welcomes dogs is also welcoming to those who don't have access to morning showers...

they do have the right to refuse service you know.

calling the health department because you don't like the policy seems rather harsh to me.

wouldn't it be easier to just move on to a coffee shop that didn't allow dogs if the dogs are an issue for you?

Posted 3 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

My dogs are my pets, not anybody else's pets. You shouldnt have to deal with my wet stinky dog. I leave em at home :-)

Posted 3 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

velo_nut..

thank you for not making us deal with your wet stinky dog.

you won't be dealing with mine either.
i don't leave mine at home..
mostly because i can't go much of anywhere without a car
and i leave them in the car..

but you still don't know if the dog sitting next to someone in a coffee shop is there because their owner can't bear to leave them home...

or can't leave home without them.

that's why there are laws guaranteeing access for service animals for those who need them

Posted 3 months ago #
B-squared
Member Profile

Well hell, if the service animal laws are so lax, i'm gonna find a way to get a service cougar!! Cats are clean, and he'll wear a flea collar. I'm feeling entitled.....

i'm with you on this one, Jiggers.

Posted 3 months ago #
chris h
Member Profile

Tethering dogs to a bench or post outside a restaurant is also illegal in the City of Seattle. Many pets are lost each year because they aren't tied securely or chew threw their tie.

I'm actually on the side of dogs. Love 'em, love seeing well behaved dogs in allowed in businesses and will continue to particularly support businesses that allow dogs.

Just wanted to clarify since this post suggests that dog owners engage in one illegal activity in order to avoid another.

Posted 3 months ago #
jwd
Member Profile

B-Squared,I'm afraid you're plum out of luck with taking that cougar to dinner with you. As of last March, Washington State now defines a service animal as "any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability. With the exception of miniature horses, other species of animals are not considered service animals. Washington State law now corresponds with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Additionally, the crime deterrent effects of an animal, and the provision of emotional support or comfort are not considered work or tasks." So you can take your miniature horse to dinner with you, but not your cougar.

I think some of these places, like Beveridge Place Pub, get away with allowing dogs because they are not food establishments.

Posted 3 months ago #
B-squared
Member Profile

Hmph! Alright, no cougar. but a miniature pony! :)

I know beveridge place gets away with and strangely i don't have a problem with it there. They have developed a clientele that expects to be able to bring their dog and many would find it odd to be there and see no dogs. Where it really irked me of late was uptown espresso on delridge. it just really seemed wrong there. a pair of couples had dogs AND kids running amok. it felt like a playground.

Posted 3 months ago #
hoffanimal
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No cougars? What are you talking about? I see cougars in bars all the time.

Posted 3 months ago #
datamuse
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BA-DUM BUMP *CHING!*

Posted 3 months ago #
B-squared
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hoffanimal - i was waiting for that:-)

Posted 3 months ago #
EmmyJane
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I wonder if people that I invite to my house to have dinner are disgusted that food was prepared in the vicinity of two cats and a dog. It's amazing none of them have ever gotten sick with the dog IN THE SAME ROOM while they were eating. To be honest (honestly sarcastic), I wonder why I'm not sick all the time.

Posted 3 months ago #
GoGo
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My thoughts exactly, EmmyJane. It's amazing some people ever leave their homes with all of the imminent dangers lurking around every corner! (also honestly sarcastic)

Posted 3 months ago #
metrognome
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it's amazing how arrogant some people are; once they've decided to adopt a furball, they decide the rest of us should be forced to share the experience with them while dining at a place of public accommodation. It's not about 'imminent dangers'; it's about having respect for others. For example, suppose I would prefer to not wear clothes when I go to dinner; I'm fairly sure some of you would have a problem with that, so I suit up. I can still be naked at home, even if I invite guests, so why should I force fellow diners at a restaurant (where they are paying for a meal, by the way) to put up with my quirks?

If a restauant wants to be 'dog friendly', that's fine with me; they should simply post a notice on their website and at the front door so I can choose to take my business elsewhere if I don't want fur in my food.

Posted 3 months ago #
GoGo
Member Profile

I think we all know the establishment that is being refered to here, so just don't go. Problem solved! Trust me, I avoide Chucky Cheese and the like because of the arrogant people that like to inflict their children on me.

Posted 3 months ago #
cwit
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Yeah, when are they going to turn Chuck E. Cheese into an adults only establishment?!

Posted 3 months ago #
EmmyJane
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Hey Met - I don't think (and I can't speak for the masses here) that it's an arogance thing. I think there are a lot of establishments out there for specific tastes and lifestyles, like gay bars. To me, accepting dogs into a restaurant is catering toward a specific group of people with specific lifestyle preferences. Everyone is welcome, but since it's geared toward the likes of a fraction of the population, not everyone is going to like it or want to go there. The wonderful thing is that there is choice so you don't have to go to those specialized places.

Just my opinion.

Posted 3 months ago #
mtnfreak
Member Profile

I think I agree with Emmy. While the health code, in some form, limits animals in restaurants (and I honestly don't know the particulars), I'm also unaware of what health hazard they actually have. Especially when compared to a 6-year old!

So why not let restaurant owners choose? Its their business, after all. You can then choose with your wallet. Simple. No drama.

Posted 3 months ago #