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RANT: Turn Lane is Not Passing Lane

Started 1 year ago by Al
Latest reply from redblack

Al
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In the past week I have seen the following actions by drivers, all between Morgan St and Alaska...

1) Driver travelling southbound on Fauntleroy in the early evening. Driver was using center turn lane as a passing lane, passing vehicles at a high rate of speed (near Brandon).

2) While I was on the bus #54, returning home from work at approximately 5:00 pm, bus was travelling down California Ave southbound. Bus was passed by a vehicle using the center turn lane as a passing lane. Bus was not travelling slow from a stop, nor preparing to stop. Bus driver was also surprised by driver. This was near the Rite Aid where a woman was hit and killed while using the crosswalk last year.

3) Yesterday evening, about 7:00, as my spouse and I were driving southbound on Fauntleroy, we saw a driver travelling northbound (near Brandon) use the center turn lane to pass two other vehicles also travelling northbound.

This is unacceptable, and all happened within ONE week. I am a frequent pedestrian a bicycle commuter who uses this area. I am appalled at the driver mentality - drivers need to be ticketed harshly for this behavior. Someone will be hurt or killed as a result.

Posted 1 year ago #
Sue
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I live on that stretch of Fauntleroy and see lots of interesting traffic violations. The best one yet: Cars stopped at the light at Fauntleroy and Dawson. A southbound driver decided that he would drive into the parking lane, passing cars on the right, then inch slowly into the intersection, then turn left (across the rest of the southbound traffic still stopped), I guess pretending that he was coming from Dawson, in order to make a U-turn on Fauntleroy. Seriously?

Posted 1 year ago #
35this35mph
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Amen! And (not to thread jack, but) people hanging U-turns on Fauntleroy to get into the ferry line drive me nuts! They stop traffic heading north or pull over blocking an intersection waiting to cross back over. Yargh!

Posted 1 year ago #
Al
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SPD has this nice little reporting feature: http://www.seattle.gov/police/contact/

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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Doing elementary school pickup and drop off seems to afford me the opportunity to watch the most appalling traffic moves and runaway sense of entitlement. As a cab driver in Boston in the 70's I fudged a few rules to pick up fares and take advantage of ice to do some quick change of direction ( the cops treated us as professional drivers and ignored moves that were safe), but these people are in-freakin sane and usually have a carload of kids in the SUV as well.
Passing in the turn lane, doing 9 point y turns and see-saw parking jobs in traffic, barreling down the residential streets to avoid the California/Admiral light.

But nothing compares to the pedestrian moms towing kids or strollers or both, who run across california either against the light or forcing the crossing guard to do a backflip to try and stop traffic for them. What are you teaching your children about safely crossing the street? The highschoolers are the same clueless immortals they have always been but little kids should be taught to look both ways and obey the signals.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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lol...Ken...the high school kids here in the Admiral 'hood defy you to hit them as they walk across the street at a snail's pace wherever and whenever they want. I am constantly amazed at the brain damage these kids have! lol...

Posted 1 year ago #
Franci
Member Profile

This didn't happen in WS, but it is on topic of inappropriate use of a turn lane..
A couple of weeks ago I was driving down Eastlake from my office to an appointment in the UDist.
It was 6:00 pm and there was a fair bit of traffic, I notice a car travelling in the same direction I'm headed, cruising down the center turn lane. After passing a block or two of traffic as it approached the lighted intersection the light turned green, it signaled and moved back into the regular travel lane. A ways up the road I and this other car ended up beside each other at a stop light, the drivers window was down, I took the opportunity to explain that driving in the turn lane was illegal. The driver then explained to me that in fact the center lane was NOT a turn lane ( really ??_, but a reversible lane! Umm I don't think so.. :)

Posted 1 year ago #
Monosyllabic Girl
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Perhaps these drivers would be more comfortable relocating to a country like China where offensive driving is the norm.

Question though, if a looky-loo is crawling along Harbor Ave at 15 mph (sometimes I've been behind a few going UNDER) is it legal to cross the broken single hash lines and go around them if it is safe to do so? There has been many a time I have been tempted.

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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you can quote Seattle Municipal Code to the next offender (as they zooooom by):

SMC 11.55.060 Two way left-turn lane.

Upon a roadway where a center lane has been provided by distinctive pavement markings for the use of vehicles turning left from both directions, no vehicles shall turn left from any other lane. A vehicle shall not be driven in this center lane for the purpose of overtaking or passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction. No vehicle shall travel further than three hundred (300) feet within the lane. A signal, either electric or manual, for indicating a left-turn movement, shall be made at least one hundred (100) feet before the actual left-turn movement is made. (RCW 46.61.290(3)(c))

(Ord. 119011 Section 14, 1998: Ord. 108200 Section 2(11.55.060), 1979.)

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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MSG -- as I read the SMC, it is legal to pass a car that is traveling at less than the speed limit, as long as you are not in a 'no-passing zone'. You must pass on the left and you are not allowed to exceed the speed limit while passing; this would make it pretty challenging to pass safely ... I'd relax and enjoy the view instead. Also, I'm not a lawyer, so I may have missed something in the code.

SMC 11.52.130 Minimum speed regulation -- Passing slow-moving vehicle.

No person shall operate a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law. Any person following a vehicle being driven at less than the legal maximum speed and desiring to pass such vehicle shall not exceed the speed limit when passing such vehicle. Where any slow-moving motor vehicle tends to congest traffic, any peace officer may cause such vehicle to be removed from the roadway and permit the congested traffic to be relieved. (RCW 46.61.425(1))

(Ord. 108200 Section 2(11.52.130), 1979.)

-----

SMC 11.14.385 No-passing zone.

"No-passing zone" means the portion of the length of a roadway indicated by a sign and/or:

A. A double centerline consisting of a broken yellow line and a solid yellow line when a vehicle is being driven adjacent to the solid line; or

B. A double centerline consisting of two (2) solid yellow lines.

(Ord. 108200 Section 2( 11.14.630), 1979.)

-----

SMC 11.53.200 Overtaking other traffic on the left.

The operator of a vehicle overtaking other traffic proceeding in the same direction shall pass to the left of such overtaken vehicle at a safe distance and shall not again drive to the right side of the roadway until safely clear of the overtaken traffic. (RCW 46.61.110(1))

(Ord. 122742 , Section 11, 2008; Ord. 108200 Section 2 (11.53.200), 1979.)

Posted 1 year ago #
dhg
Member Profile

I have two stories to add:
1. Northbound on Calif. near C&P. Explorer driver didn't think I was going fast enough and passed me in the left turn lane. I caught up with her in the Alaska Junction as I was a whole 30 seconds behind her. She parked and ran in to Cupcake Royal to meet with friends. (She shaved 30 seconds by driving 50+ mph!)
2. Taking the scenic route, northbound, from Lincoln Park down to Beach Drive. I get behind a school bus that's a trainer bus and it is completely maddening. The driver is going 10 to 15 mph. It is really difficult to sit behind a bus going that slow (and Beach Drive is not a good training ground because it is difficult to pass) but the truck behind me would not put up with it. As we neared a curve, he passed both me and the bus and nearly hit a small truck in a driveway. That small truck was upside down with someone in it and the ambulance was on its way. Apparently it was a southbound accident that had happened moments before.

Posted 1 year ago #
Al
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metrognome, not understanding what you are saying? Are you trying to say it's ok to pass someone by using the full left turn lane because you think they are going too slow? In that case, the center turn lane is always a defacto "no passing zone."

Driver's Manual http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/driverguide.pdf
"Two-Way Left Turn Lanes These shared center lanes are reserved for vehicles making left turns in either direction from or into the roadway (or U turns when they are permitted). These lanes cannot be used for passing and cannot be used for travel further than 300 feet. On the pavement, left turn arrows for traffic in one direction alternate with left turn arrows for traffic
coming from the other direction. These lanes are marked on each side by a solid yellow and dashed
yellow lines. Enter the lane only when it is safe to do so."(pg 35)

And "Where there is both a solid and a dashed yellow line between opposing lanes of traffic, you may not pass if the solid yellow line is on your side. If the dashed line is on your side you are in the passing zone and may pass if it is safe. You must return to your side before the passing zone ends. Two solid yellow lines between lanes of traffic means neither side can pass."(pg 32)

The key is that 300' rule it seems. So if you are passing a driver that's trying to park a car or pass a bus that's picking up riders or a cyclist, you can use at least part of the turn lane to do so. 300' is plenty of room for those purposes. You cannot use it to pass other drivers who are proceeding in the same direction because it's not a travel lane.

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
Member Profile

interesting things drivers do.

an engineering way to reduce some of this behavior and making things safer would be to set consistent speed limits based on real traffic engineering science. many speed limits are no longer credible and thus drivers have lost trust and their value is diminished.

Posted 1 year ago #
austin
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Best way to get drivers to slow down? Decrease speed limit for private vehicles within city limits to 20 mph, and revoke drivers license after three infractions.

Posted 1 year ago #
Smitty
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More sharrows!

That's the ticket.

Posted 1 year ago #
AlkiCabCompany
Member Profile

I get passed on Harbor and Alki doing the speed limit. People need to stop doing so much crack.

Since we are ranting about drivers..I am beginning to wonder if people in West Seattle know they have these little lights called turn signals on their car. All cars are equipped with them they are next to the steering wheel. Find it and use it people!

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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Al -- my new year's reso should have been to not try to answer these kinds of questions anymore!!! The traffic codes are often antiquated and have never been conformed to recognize additions or changes to other sections. Plus, I was answering two different questions which is why I posted the answers separately.

The 300' limitation is meant to stop people who intend to make a left turn from driving in the center two-way turn lane for a longer distance (to bypass stopped traffic, for example.) It is also meant to leave the turn lane available and safe for a driver coming in the opposite direction who wants to turn left or for a driver who is entering from adjacent property. BTW, at 30 mph, it takes 6.8 seconds to travel 300 ft, which seems to be about half a block on the West Coast.

As you noted, the two-way turn lane is striped with a solid line on the traffic side and a dashed line on the inside. As I read the code, you cannot cross the solid yellow line to pass. Plus, the two-way turn lane code specifically prohibits using that lane for passing. Conclusion: you can't use the two-way turn lane to pass slower traffic as in the examples in your original post.

MSG's example was a street with a dashed line, which means she would be passing in the oncoming traffic lane, which appears to be legal.

I think it is a judgement call to pull partly into the 2-way turn lane to get around a car being parked (I believe technically you have to wait until the travel lane is clear) or a cyclist. I doubt if a police officer will issue a ticket in either case unless there is another infraction observed at the same time.

Posted 1 year ago #
MB
Member Profile

I'm just amazed at how oblivious and careless drivers around here are in general. I think a few (or most) people amongst us missed a few days of Driver's Ed.

ACC, you read my mind on the turn signals!! It's a damn good thing I pay attention...apparently a lot of people assume other drivers have ESP. Why would you drive around increasing your chances of an accident over something as simple as using a turn signal...oh ya, and there IS such thing as a blind spot!

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
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austin fantasy engineering, SDOT already does fantasy engineering that reduces traffic safety!

i have significant data showing increased accidents when agencies arbitrarily set a speed limit.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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wow, smitty. how long did it take you to come up with that pearl of wisdumb?

anyway, you know what's really missing from this debate?

common sense.

look, folks. if you have to pass a garbage truck on a two-way arterial with a dashed lane divider, for example, use your freaking turn signal to change lanes and pass the garbage truck when it's safe to do so.

al, metrognome quoted the law, which says that fauntleroy way, for example, is a no-passing zone.

period!

"No-passing zone" means the portion of the length of a roadway indicated by a sign and/or:

A. A double centerline consisting of a broken yellow line and a solid yellow line when a vehicle is being driven adjacent to the solid line

and don't get me started on the d-bag who changed lanes in the middle of an intersection on first ave south yesterday just to get around me - while i was attempting to pass a fully-loaded tractor trailer. i had to swerve to avoid being hit by this aggro yuppie. did he wait until it was safe to pass?

hell, no! he had stuff to do!

if you're reading this: yeah, dude. i got the plate number on your silver (beater) mid-2000's lexus and reported you as an aggressive driver.

idiot.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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hooper: glad to see you're still grousing.

i was starting to worry that qwest shut off your 2400k-baud dial-up connection.

anyway, post that data, please. i want to see hard evidence that speed limits increase the number of traffic accidents.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
Member Profile

alkiCabCo...next time you are near a driver who doesn't use signals...pull up along side them, roll your window down. Complement them on the nice car, but show remorse that they got the stripped down version. When they ask what? Just say "No signals"...

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

redblack -- actually, you are right that passing is prohibited in the two-way turn lane (TWTL), such as certain segments of Fauntleroy or California, but I was partly wrong about the reason. Passing is specifically prohibited in the definition of a TWTL, period.

The issue of a solid line and a dashed line is for a CENTER line, which separates two traffic lanes in different directions. For example, if there is a dip in the road or a curve that prevents the driver from seeing far enough to pass safely, in addition to the dashed line there will be a solid line next to the lane where passing is prohibited. The solid line will stop when it is safe to pass. This usually applies to highways; I don't think I've seen it used much if at all on city streets.

Good point about using lane change indicators to signal both pull-out and pull-in when passing.

I hope we're done with this now ...

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
Member Profile

redblack it is a word file.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
Member Profile

hooper: how convenient.

so how did you come by the magickal electronick dockument?

google for "clipboard," and "cutting and pasting."

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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copy > paste works.
Or send it to me and I can post it on one of my web servers as a pdf.

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
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redblack i am an expert in traffic engineering and deal with this type of data all the time.

Posted 1 year ago #
miws
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And Ken is an expert in computers, and things related, and has offered a way for your data to be posted here!

(Pssssst......click on his name!)

Mike

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
Member Profile

miws me click on ken's name and he has data now

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
Member Profile

hooper: ¿que?

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
Member Profile

ken, you can haz data now? who has this alleged data? come on! i'm dying to see how lowering speed limits causes more accidents, so i have an excuse next time i get pulled over.

facts, figures, skid mark lengths, tape measures, testimonials, court transcripts, 8 x 10 glossy color photos with the writin' on the back...

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
Member Profile

redblack - arbitrary speed limits reduce safety for the basic reason motorists disrespect them. someone who travels at an arbitrary low limit can cause frustration to other motorists.

setting speed limits based on recognized Traffic Engineering science improves traffic safety by being more credible and meeting motorist expectations. properly set speed limits improves compliance and uniformity in travel speeds; and thus safety.

Posted 1 year ago #
Al
Member Profile

hooper - so we should set higher speed limits because drivers want to go faster and because the poor drivers get frustrated? LOL!

Have you read "Traffic?" It discusses lower speed limits in detail and why they are safer and can actually improve traffic flow. Not only that, but motorists are not the only road users. Name one place where traffic is allowed to go as fast as they want with no stringent traffic regulations and that has a low accident/fatality rate per accident (that includes pedestrians, cyclists, farm machinery etc.). And I want a link to your documentation.

Traffic: http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785

I believe I have posted this link before, a good study on speed which you may be referring to: http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

Note that the study was conducted only on nonlimited access rural and urban highways, not interurban multi-use streets. And the conclusion was that speed limits even on rural and urban highways should NOT be automatically raised, but the idea should be studied to make sure that it's deemed safe to do so.

"The data collected during this study indicate that there are no benefits, either from a safety or operational point of view, from establishing speed limits less than the 85th percentile speed. This does not mean that all speed limits should be raised. Traffic and engineer investigations should be conducted to obtain an accurate measure of the speed distribution."

And here's a good counterpoint:
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/09/05/news/local_news/doc4c844384f2345203067376.txt

Posted 1 year ago #
Al
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And what does this have to do with the inability of drivers to understand that a two-way left turn lane is NOT a passing lane, even if they *think* someone is just not moving fast enough for them? OFF TOPIC.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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http://ken-davis.net/aaa/speedlimitrevisions.pdf
I sent the link to hooper so I thought he had posted it.
Appears to be data from Rick Perez at
http://www.cityoffederalway.com/Page.aspx?view=557

Posted 1 year ago #
Lindsey
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My boyfriend works at AAA, and do you know what the fleet drivers call those two-way turn lanes? Suicide lanes. EEP.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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pop quiz: for fun and learning, what is the longest legal travel distance in the "suicide lane?"

thank you for the mixed data, hooper. is there anything more than 4 examples of federal way semi-arterials - which, if i recall correctly, are mostly one-lane roads? that data shows both increases and decreases in collisions, and it doesn't give any reasons for the speed limit changes. i.e. were the changes "arbitrary?" or, like the fauntleroy way rechannelization, were surrounding residents truly concerned for their own safety?

btw, SDOT states that safety - sight distance, grade, curves, proximity of cyclists, etc. - is the main reason for 30 mph on admiral.

safety is not "arbitrary."

Posted 1 year ago #

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