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1. CrazyDogLady
   Member Profile

   I was walking up to the door of the Admiral Met Market a few feet behind you. I was stunned to see that someone would have their dog -- looked to be some kind of border collie mix, gray and black -- out in such horrible heat. As you walked to the door, I thought maybe you were going to take your dog inside, but realized the poor thing was just trying to follow you. You didn't stop, but instead said to your dog in a very angry, annoyed, voice, "Get down and stay down!" as you walked in. It was then I noticed the second idiot thing you did today: You left your dog outside a store on a very busy street, unleashed.

   As I got to the door I felt so sorry for your dog. First, it watched you through the door -- you didn't bother to tie it up, nor did you bother to make sure it had actually laid down as I'm sure you would assure anyone it was so well trained to do. Then as I entered the store, your poor, hot dog tried to follow me into the air conditioning. When the door closed, I watched as your dog slunk away.

   The longer I shopped, the more angry I became. I told myself that if I got back outside and your dog was still there, I was going to take it with me in my air conditioned car. When I got outside, your dog wasn't there. I hadn't spent long in the store -- were you just running in and out? Or did your poor dog take off?

   Do you have any idea how hot your dog must have been, forced to be outside in a fur coat in 103 degree heat? Do you know how easy it would have been for someone to have taken your dog? Or for your dog to have wandered into traffic and gotten hit by a car?

   If you care for your dog so little, please let me know. I will be happy to find him or her a loving home.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

2. JoB
   Member Profile

   ditto... even if it hadn't been that hot...

   Posted 2 years ago #         

3. andrea
   Member Profile

   

   CrazyDogLady...i must be your long lost sister crazydoglady2, cause I'm in tears now after reading that post of yours...I know how hot and uncomfortable my dogs have felt the last few days, and I've been keeping them indoors in the basement until after 9pm! I can't imagine how one must have felt out there having walked in the heat, been left in the heat, and been treated so poorly to boot. ugh! people! please, please remember that your pets are living beings who suffer just like people do!

   Posted 2 years ago #         

4. CrazyDogLady
   Member Profile

   Crazy Dog Ladies unite! I wish now I would have said something to the guy or gotten the dog water. Not sure what I would have said, though. I know that sometimes I can get annoyed by my dogs too, but come on, people! It's 103 freaking degrees -- why is your dog outside at all? I let mine out to do their biz and got them back in within seconds.

   I don't know why some people have dogs. : (

   Posted 2 years ago #         

5. KBear
   Member Profile

   You didn't need to confront the guy at all. Just tell the store manager. Even on a normal day, they aren't going to want unleashed dogs outside the store.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

6. Diana
   Member Profile

   About a month ago I started a discussion about dogs left in cars and this is not dissimilar. A suggestion; if you have concerns ask for the manager or security. Almost all of the markets have intercoms. The manager could have paged the owner and dealt with the problem. If the owner failed to respond you could request the manager call Animal Control. Metro is dog friendly and there is usually a water bowl outside by the flower stand. Confronting strangers is not a good idea. And one more thing...put your hand on the pavement folks, imagine it's a paw, lean over and place your face over the pavement, pretend your heart and lungs are 6-8" near the pavement. How do feel? If you must walk your dog sacrifice some sleep and head out at dawn.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

7. vincent
   Member Profile

   

   So do you people slap candy bars out of peoples hands when you deem them overweight?

   Posted 2 years ago #         

8. JoB
   Member Profile

   Vincent..

   i only slap candy bars out of the hands of people i don't like.. skinny or fat..

   Posted 2 years ago #         

9. lazybeard
   Member Profile

   

   I'd be pissed if someone slapped a candy bar out of my hand. On a day like this, I'd have three otter pops in hand, maybe a beer too.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

10. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Vincent...I'm not sure I understand what you ask has to do with this post, besides being a smart a$$...are you saying that it's no one's business? That the guy was perfectly within his right to not use a leash, and keep his dog outside without water in 103 degree heat? just askin' :)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

11. anatidaephobia
    Member Profile

    I had a personal dilemma with my dog yesterday. On the drive home from another town, after visiting the grandparents, my child had to use the bathroom. He's barely potty trained, and can't hold it. I was on the highway.

    I had to stop at a fast food restaurant, and unfortunately leave my dog in the car while my child used the bathroom (ie. I cannot send him in there by himself, for safety reasons). I left all the car windows down, parked in the shade & encouraged my child to be as fast as possible, but the dog was out there for about 5 minutes. I couldn't give my dog water during those 5 minutes, since it was an emergency stop & I had to stay with my child. Afterward, we hopped back in the car, turned on the air conditioning, and went through the drive-thru to buy food.

    I'm sure someone from the outside will judge me very harshly, but sometimes people do not know the circumstances. The walk to the store could have been more comfortable for that dog, rather than being locked in a 100+ degree apartment. My condo reaches above 100, even with 6 fans going. I took my dog with me to the grandparents for a night so that she could be in a cooler environment and with a lake to swim in. Who knows what the circumstances are for the man you observed. He used voice control to command his dog to stay while he went shopping, since grocery stores don't allow dogs within, and he was fast. Those are the facts, the rest is just judgment.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

12. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    um i would have confronted the guy and said a few nice pleasant thing to educate him. it is ILLEGAL to leave animal unleashed. so whether it was to hot, it doesn't matter. my dog are very well behaved i would never do that.

    anatidaephobia: I would have waited for you to come back and discuss what the hell was up and when you explained then would somewhat understand. i would have left the car running. granted if you have a fancy van/car may not have been possible. i respect you for going someplace cooler.

    tell that to my vet office who has seen several heat exhaustion cases. some of them put down because the @#@A$$ would pay for treatment. go to any ask anu vet it is CRUEL period even if a short period of time.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

13. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    obviously, if the man was inside the store, and the animal wasn't, voice commands are a moot point, as there is NO communication at that point.

    You had an emergency with your child...we all understand that. Your car was probably a bit more comfy that being outside on the sidewalk at Met Market. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do, but this guy wasn't, it seems to me, thinking at all about the comfort of his dog. Just a few feet away, up near the side porch that goes into MM's coffee shop there is always a bowl of water for dogs. He could have at least leashed the dog there in the shade IF he had had a leash...

    Posted 2 years ago #         

14. sam-c
    Member Profile

    

    without debating the cruelty factor, I could never leave our dog out side anywhere without a leash. I'd be afraid that he'd run be stolen or hit by a car.

    I'm not excusing him, but I'm always surprised at how people attack strangers on this blog without knowing the circumstances or actually talking to the person.
    (like the person who was afraid to confront the contractor who left their dog in the truck- most contractors I know are very friendly. maybe they looked scary cause they work with their hands all day, so they're big and muscular, but that shouldn't make them un-approachable)

    perhaps this guy has a top floor apartment with giant windows, making it unbearably hot, and it was actually cooler outside than inside. maybe that is more likely at 7pm than 4 pm. who knows. but yeah- that poor dog probably would have preferred a walk later in the day.

    he's probably fine now, like our dog, who spent much of the heat wave sprawled on the tile floor, panting.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

15. KBear
    Member Profile

    "obviously, if the man was inside the store, and the animal wasn't, voice commands are a moot point, as there is NO communication at that point."

    Voice commands are a moot point because there's no such exception to the leash law.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

16. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    Glad to see the armchair lawyers of the WSB are back in full force.

    (SMC 9.25.084(A) defines the leash law as: “permit any animal, except cats and pigeons, to be at large or trespass upon the property of another.”

    Its the "at large" that's the sticky point, defined as # Free from confinement, control, or restraint.

    One could easily argue that a dog such as the one in question, a trained border collie, could be demonstrated as being not "at large" via voice command. Demonstrated by a border collie being under better control than say a 100lb untrained lab being held by leash by a tween. Your presumption that an unleashed animal is automatically a violation of the law is false.

    You could always attempt to press the point by demanding the violator in question is fined by police and then attempt to argue the legal precedent in favour of the city so to clear ambiguity, but you might want to have a law degree, and lots and lots of free time, that's if you can get a police officer to scurry out to a store over a 65$ violation.

    Presumption of the law in this manner is in my opinion worse than actually breaking it. As you tie up the community resources in an attempt to do the job of "enforcement" which is clearly defined to be the role of the police.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

17. JoB
    Member Profile

    I confess.. i have left my animals in the car for very short periods of time in the heat...

    but... and this is where the shoe leather hits the road as far as i am concerned... i care deeply about the welfare of my dogs... and i do everything i can to ensure their well being...

    in fact. i put their happiness and comfort ahead of my own. I am not entirely sure that is a good thing.. but it has worked well for us so far... in spite of all the challenges we have and the many things some people think i do wrong.

    In a perfect world, we could assume that everyone else felt the same and had made the best decision for their pets and themselves all of the time.

    but.. hammerhead is right.. vets can give us plenty of evidence that people don't always make the best choices for their pets.. and those are the animals someone cared enough about to take to the vet...

    Do we err on the side of caution and condemn every instance of what appears to be cruel or thoughtless behavior to us because a few really don't stop to think what is in their pet's best interest.. or don't care?

    I don't think we can.

    We can speak up and educate people about the dangers to their animals.. and we can do what we can for those we see neglected.. like bringing them water or staying with them (if that doesn't distress them) while their owner is in the store...

    but setting ourselves up as judge and jury for other people's behavior simply invites misunderstandings.. at best.

    Anyone who intervened for my dogs when they are left briefly in the car would likely be signing at least one dog's death warrant as neither would allow anyone to take them out of the car without fighting back...

    and even if i returned in time to prevent a bite.. it is likely my dogs would be confiscated as vicious... even though the intervention created the situation.

    For me it all comes down to how we choose to view others...

    Do we assume that people are basically good and that when they do things that endanger others they do so without understanding the danger?

    Or.. do we assume that people are basically bad and they really don't care what happens even to the people and pets they love as long as they get what they want?

    I choose to believe in basic goodness.. and sometimes that bites me where it really hurts... but most of the time people meet and even exceed my expectations...

    besides that... believing the best is a pretty effective strategy when it comes to education. People are far more likely to listen to loving concern than to criticism.

    yeah.. i know.. i do my best :(

    Posted 2 years ago #         

18. KBear
    Member Profile

    Vincent, the leash law is a fact whether you believe it or not. It also specifies the length of the required leash. And all citizens need to have some knowledge of the law in order to obey it. Being aware of the law does not make one an "armchair lawyer". It's interesting that you think people should keep their cats off your lawn, yet you defend those who let dogs run around. Makes no sense, unless you just have nothing better to do than sit around and pick arguments with people on the Internet.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

19. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    Its illegal for you to say that.

    (see I can do it to.)

    I never implied dogs should run around, I made that pretty clear and in context with the SMC and description of the incident in question.

    your statement "the leash law is fact" is a logical fallacy. But I did enjoy your ad hominem attack at the end of your post, it really helped me get your point.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

20. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Vincent...it's nice to know that we have people like you to tell us what's right and wrong so we don't go astray...thanks.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

21. CM
    Member Profile

    Not taking sides here, but Vincent, a bit further investigation would have led you to this:

    SMC 9.25.020:

    "E. "At large" means a dog or other animal inside The City of Seattle, off the premises of the owner, and not under control by a leash of
    eight (8) feet in length or shorter. "At large" does not include an animal on property other than the animal's owner with the permission of a lawful occupant of that property."

    Pretty clear.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

22. JoB
    Member Profile

    Vincent...

    i have heard the argument that dogs being under voice control are not at large...

    and if the owner is in sight and voice distance of the dog in controlled circumstances that assertion could be accurate.

    By you can't control a dog using voice control if you can't see that they need to be corrected or if they can't hear or see you when they need to be corrected... and you can't control the circumstances if you leave your dog in public in the down position.

    If your dog tries to follow you after you have put them in the down position, it is a pretty good indication that they are not in perfect voice control and it probably isn't safe to leave them unattended.

    I use voice control with my dogs even when they are on leash... and most of the time it works pretty well.. but that leash is always there just in case we have a difference of opinion about priorities. They place a higher priority on some distractions than i do... imagine that ;-)

    leash laws vary with municipalities, but KBear is right, they generally specify the length of the leash.

    Technically, every person who uses a retractable leash is in violation of leash laws even if that leash is not extended past the legal limit ... though i have never known anyone to get a ticket for using them if their dogs were under leash control.

    It's not necessarily armchair lawyering to expect people to obey the law... and you don't have to know the letter of the law to understand it's intent...

    as you will find to your dismay if you try to use lack of knowledge of the finer points of the law as a defense when you have exceeded it's intent.

    As the man who left his dog outside the door of the store would have discovered had someone called and a policeman responded in time to catch him in the act...

    Posted 2 years ago #         

23. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    CM: I appreciate your attempt to reference the actual language of the law in question. The second section you quoted however supports my point.
    

    "At large" does not include an animal on property other than the animal's owner with the permission of a lawful occupant of that property."

    Presumably if the owner in question had the permission of the manager, leaving the dog unleashed in the example of the OP, was indeed legal.
    this is the point I am getting at. Pointing and yelling loud THAT'S ILLEGAL, is short sided and in many cases flat out wrong.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

24. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    JoB: your plea while impassioned and better thought out than most in this thread, is full of conjecture and opinion. "intent of the law" is hardly definitive. Otherwise judges would be unnecessary and they would never be overturned by challenge. I seriously doubt the police would take a "dog at the store" call seriously. In light of examples seen on this blog about multiple hour arrival times for burglary's and accidents.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

25. sam-c
    Member Profile

    

    I wanted to second JoB: "besides that... believing the best is a pretty effective strategy when it comes to education. People are far more likely to listen to loving concern than to criticism. "

    I think this WSB fosters an amazing sense of community but sometimes it's sort of superficial, like it's all online. bring it, when you physically get out in the community.
    It's obviously possible, there's been several stories: someone getting a ride after losing their dog off a bridge, somebody getting a ride up a tough hill.

    why can't this be done when you are concerned about an animal's well being? this is an animal who can't speak up for themselves and needs help right then, not 1-10 hours later, after fuming all day, arguing online....

    you can start out with.. hey sir, I noticed your beautiful dog outside, I was just going to mention in case you didn't know, that the cafe patio has a dog bowl for water, and the shaded concrete over there might be more manageable for the sensitive and delicate foot pads...

    if this guy is rude, takes it personally, and doesn't respond well, THEN talk to the store manager, call the police, etc.

    and like Vincent mentioned- good luck on them coming out. I couldn't get them to come when I called about partyers dancing on top of moving vehicles, beer bottle in hand..

    Posted 2 years ago #         

26. KBear
    Member Profile

    You're right, Vincent. Whenever we think we see someone breaking the law, we should imagine a ridiculous scenario under which their actions would in fact be legal. OF COURSE the man probably called ahead to ask the store manager's permission to park his unleashed dog outside the door. NOT ONLY THAT, but the store manager said, "We don't normally allow this, but just today we'll make an exception for YOU and YOUR DOG!!! And since you're a friend of Vincent, why don't you help yourself to a FREE SIRLOIN and a CASE OF BEER (since it's so hot outside.) I know you're in a hurry, so just tuck it into your shirt and walk out the door. I told the staff you'd be doing this, so no one should stop you. Have a great day!"

    Posted 2 years ago #         

27. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    someone needs a hug.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

28. JoB
    Member Profile

    sam-c

    if there was a car in the area and no other higher priority call, it is possible a policeman would respond to this call.. or better yet.. animal control.

    Vincent..

    this is a public forum. opinion rules here :->

    As for conjecture.. i will point to your own...

    "Presumably if the owner in question had the permission of the manager"

    We can presume a lot of things... i won't repeat the way salespeople view the word assume... breaking it down to it's syllables.. ass...u... me and explain the implications for fear of being accused of calling someone names.. but in many ways it proves both our points.

    BTW.. just for giggles..

    how did the man get his dog from his private property to the door of the store without a leash and without crossing public property unless he drove.. and if he did why didn't he leave the dog enclosed in the car with the windows down?

    I am thinking carefully when i ask this because i am pretty sure it isn't possible to get to THAT Thriftway on foot without crossing public property... though i am sure there are many Thriftways were it is barely possible:)

    regardless.. we can each make a case for our own private scenario around those stated if we choose our own supporting variables.. the possibilities are endless...

    kind of like human experience:)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

29. JoB
    Member Profile

    KBear..

    :0
    :)))
    ;-)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

30. vincent
    Member Profile

    

    Job: The difference is I don't attempt to pass opinion as fact. Or use comical straw man arguments like Kbear. In addition Tour grade school level attempt to explain assume was ridiculous, and really fit what I imagine home schooling is like for children who's parents are part of the birther movement. And your giggles use pre-emption of guilt by association ( how did the unleashed dog get there? ) which our legal system doesn't recognise.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

31. KBear
    Member Profile

    Now who's armchair lawyering?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

32. JoB
    Member Profile

    Vincent...

    this forum things works better when none of us take ourselves too seriously...

    I would bet that the assume thing is still taught in sales courses.. because it is at the heart of a salesperson's success or failure.

    When you assume you know the arguments that are between you and your sale your don't listen..
    when you assume you know the answers you don't listen..
    when you don't listen you won't discover the true objection to your sale...
    which makes it pretty hard to close.

    the same could be argued about arguments...

    sophomoric or childish expressions often hold a great deal of truth if you listen to the intent behind them.

    my personal favorite right now...
    and the one my son finds himself using a lot lately as his kids grow is...

    where did you leave your manners?
    in your underwear drawer?

    Wouldn't life be a lot more pleasant if everyone remembered to put on their manners with their underwear?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

33. funkietoo
    Member Profile

    LOL...hopefully the underwear is clean. Thank you for sharing that one!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

34. kg
    Member Profile

    I stopped reading the thread after reading two or three people saying that they would confront this person and give them a piece of their mind.

    I would like to remind people that in doing so you are initiating a confrontation. Depending on how "passionate" you become in confronting this person you may be the one getting in trouble depending on how it escalates. I implore you to call the appropriate agency/authorities to handle this or any similar incident. Before someone tries to twist my words I would act to save a child immediately if in danger. To be clear I in NO WAY condone leaving the dog out there in the heat to burn his paws and no access to water.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

35. JoB
    Member Profile

    funkietoo...

    i would never occur to the mom who loaded those drawers that the underwear in them wouldn't be clean... but now that i think of it:(

    goodness gracious! yes.. clean would be good...

    kg

    speaking with someone doesn't have to be a confrontation...

    in this case i might have stayed with the dog, provided water.. and told the owner i hoped they didn't mind that i watered their dog and kept it company while they were in the store.. and then if the owner wasn't hostile made a comment about how easy it is to forget how hot it is outside for our furry friends who wear winter clothes year round...

    true.. they could have become confrontational in which case i would have just walked away...

    another saying i really like comes from my ex-husband...

    it's useless to try to teach a pig to sing.
    It doesn't work
    and it really irritates the pig...

    btw.. i use pigs because it was the way he said it.. substitute camels or monkeys or... if you are fixated on negative perceptions of pigs.

    he was always trying to get me to stop tilting at what he thought were windmills... perhaps why we are no longer married :)))

    i bet he would be shocked to hear me repeating that one ;-0
    He thought i wasn't listening:)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

36. kg
    Member Profile

    @Job
    Great to hear you would be able to keep the situation civil and be able de-escalate the situation if the need arose. It seems a few others in the thread did not have that intention in mind and my words were directed at them.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

37. JoB
    Member Profile

    kg...

    that's what i would do if i had the time and ability to stop and reflect before speaking/acting:)

    i think too often we are all inclined to unload on someone we see doing something we think they shouldn't be doing...

    if we stop and think first most of us realize that unloading will only have a negative effect.. that there are better options.

    the dog thing i am pretty sure about since i have encountered similar situations before.. but i am sure there are more instances when i spoke first and thought later than when i thought first and spoke thoughtfully:(

    and you are right... escalation is a very real possibility :(

    It's a good thing we get an opportunity to talk about this one and think about what we might do ahead of time isn't it.

    with any luck it will be a while before the heat gets that bad again. the pups are more playful today.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

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