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RANT: People who use babies for a bicycle bumper

Started 8 months ago by dhg
Latest reply from hoffanimal

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dhg
Member Profile

Sunday morning, beautiful day for a bike ride but NOT a beautiful day to put baby in a "trailer" on the bike and let that part stick out farthest into the road. I do not mind slowing down and driving around baby but I do not like the idea that the baby is not well-protected from any driver that might not be as attentive. Michael Jackson was criticized for suspending his baby over a balcony even though he had absolute control. Steve Irwin was criticized for holding his baby out in front of an 18 ft salt water croc (and right so, he can't control the croc) This is no less dangerous. Bike on your own, leave your kid at home.

Posted 8 months ago #
Al
Member Profile

These trailers are perfectly safe if used in a proper manner. The streets are for all vehicular use, whether motorized or not. A cyclist towing a trailer has every right to be there whether you like it or not. What is putting the child, and rider, in danger is not themselves, but impatient drivers. That is the problem. "To save them from themselves" is a terrible argument that solves nothing. If you think this is so dangerous, maybe you ought to stop driving - have you seen the fatality/serious injury figures for those killed each year from just being IN a motor vehicle?

Posted 8 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

wow dhg, you really know how to suck the fun out of cycling with my family. Maybe I should wrap my kid with bubble wrap and never let her out of the house again too.

Your post is useless.

Posted 8 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

I agree with dhg. There are so many things that can go wrong in traffic, and these baby trailers are too low to be visible in many situations. Whether or not the cyclist has the "right" to be there "like it or not" has nothing to do with it. I think the OP is very aware of auto fatality statistics -- hence the concern. If many thousands of people are killed each year while inside metal vehicles weighing thousands of pounds, how safe can it be dragging a baby through speeding traffic in a rolling tent? I've seen these things cruising down I-35; in my opinion, this represents child endangerment.

Posted 8 months ago #
acemotel
Member Profile

I was just thinking about that yesterday when I observed a similar situation. It's dangerous enough for the cyclist, but ever more so for the child in the carrier behind. Of course they have every right to be there, that's not the question! The problem is that the child is so vulnerable in the small container, surrounded by massive vehicles and drivers everywhere of unknown ability, stability, or health.

Posted 8 months ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Whoa WHOA, Velo? Good LORD! I agree with you and I don't even want to because of the tone you just used... that was really unnecessarily rude!

That said - I got carted around in one of those when I was a kid and I had my helmet on and I was fine. Not even a near miss. It's one of my favorite memories of growing up in West Seattle. It does take some trust on the part of the parent, but what kinda world do we live in that we have to assume that drivers are negligent enough to not notice one of those? If you don't do certain things with your kids because you're afraid they will be in danger, you will miss out on a lot. Kids are fragile, people are dumb.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

it helps to have a very bright warning flag fluttering far above that little bundle of love you are entrusting to the mercies of drivers who can't be bothered to put down their cell phones...

but it's a lot safer to ride on actual dedicated bike paths...

it's not as though most of you who ride with your kids don't have cars and bike carriers to take you to bike path access points.

Posted 8 months ago #
dhg
Member Profile

velo_nut: I'm sucking the fun out of biking with your family? What part was the fun part: Being a rock in a busy road or trekking with your family? If the latter, there are some great paths in Seattle that don't involve large vehicles. I think there is some wiggle room between the two extremes: child in road vs. bubblewrapped in the home. I do admit to erring on the side of precaution. Can't help it. But I leave bubblewrap for shipping.

And Cait: Thank you. I am getting used to the scorn on the forum but it is seriously not great fun t receive the judgement that my post is useless.

Posted 8 months ago #
acemotel
Member Profile

It's pretty sad when someone's sense of fun can be shattered by an anonymous web posting. Is the "fun" that tenuous?

Posted 8 months ago #
Traci
Member Profile

Every time I see a small child on a bike or towed behind a bike my heart skips a beat. I suppose it's great that some people feel comfortable enough to ride that way, but I personally wouldn't. Too scary.

Posted 8 months ago #
HunterG
Member Profile

I am sure they are safe when used properly, but those things freak me out!

Posted 8 months ago #
sam-c
Member Profile

where did all the forum cyclists (who think that everyone in west seattle should bike every where) go? you know,
"hey ! the bridge traffic didn't affect my ride to work, I rode my bike !"

"you should ride your bike to work, I'll show you how!"

if everyone rides their bike everywhere like McGinn wants us to, how are we supposed to get our children to child care?

also, the overwhelming opinion here seems to be that, if you can't see the cat/ dog in the road, then you're an in-attentive driver and you shouldn't be on the road. if that is the case, and you can see a cat / dog, etc, I should hope that you can see a bike trailer.

rhetorical questions aside, you definitely have to choose your route carefully, considering the road widths, visibility, traffic, hills, etc. as you do with any bike route.

Posted 8 months ago #
austin
Member Profile

"also, the overwhelming opinion here seems to be that, if you can't see the cat/ dog in the road, then you're an in-attentive driver and you shouldn't be on the road. if that is the case, and you can see a cat / dog, etc, I should hope that you can see a bike trailer."

Correct. If a driver is unable to safely operate their vehicle around cyclists and pedestrians, whether an issue of visual acuity or ability to control the vehicle otherwise, it is their responsibility to not be behind the wheel. Same goes for people who are distracted by police, the weather, trees, parked cars, etc. It is your responsibility to know if you are capable of operating dangerous heavy machinery moving at speed in populated urban areas. Many are not.

Posted 8 months ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

There's definitely a safety spectrum in my book. Lots of good spots for these things - 35th, Delridge, Fauntleroy, California aren't any of them. I don't want anyone in my family on a motorcycle. You can be the most careful and skilled rider, but when you meet a driver who is not, you have nothing around you for protection. Same goes for these trailers, and bikes in general for that matter. For some, the thrill/sense of freedom on a motorcycle or bicycle may outweigh the risk, but it seems selfish to make that choice for someone else.

Posted 8 months ago #
Al
Member Profile

I think the title of this post says it all. It's sort of like making sure that if one chooses to ride a bike with their kid they are automatically "bad" parents. Rather than recognizing the fact that it's actually a safe and fun activity in itself. It's not the cyclists who are putting themselves in danger, but those drivers who choose to drive dangerously around them. Really, that's it. No matter if they choose to ride down California or whatever other road they want to.

This is an interesting blog post that looks at the same kind of thing under discussion here...
http://bikinginla.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/blaming-the-victim-—-some-drivers-say-cyclists-are-just-asking-for-it/

"...The last socially acceptable vestige of that blame-the-victim attitude is firmly on display whenever the subject turns to bicycling and a riders’ right to the road — and the wisdom of putting our wheels on the asphalt some motorists claim as their exclusive domain...
"...the problem comes from those who absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own actions. It’s the cyclists’ fault for being where we shouldn’t be...
"...It’s the cyclists, they (drivers) insist, who are risking their own lives; it’s not the drivers’ responsibility to look for them or pass safely. So if you hit one, it’s really his or her fault, not the fault of the careless, distracted or overly aggressive person behind the wheel...
"...It requires one or more people violating the law or using the road carelessly; if everyone drove and rode carefully, paying close attention to the traffic and circumstances around them, while observing the law, it would be virtually impossible to have a collision. And wrecks, whether between motor vehicles, bikes, pedestrians or any combination thereof, would become so rare that a simple fender bender would be front page news...

"...No need for drivers to be careful.
No need to slow down or put down that cell phone, watch the road or take alternative transportation if you’ve been drinking. It’s not your fault, really.
It’s those darn cyclists who just don’t belong on the road.
They made me do it."

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

austin...

i agree completely that not running over kids with your car is the driver's responsibility...

but what reasonable parent would intentionally put the the safety of their children in the hands of unknown drivers on busy city arterials when they have other alternatives?

Yes they can. It's their right.
But does the risk benefit ration really pan out on this one?

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Al..

the bicycle mavin that our mayor recently hired thinks cyclists shouldn't have to honor basic safety rules like stop signs.

Will it be the driver's fault if they hit a bicyclist while legally crossing an intersection?

not so smart
in my not so humble opinion...

if i was still riding a bike i would be stopping for those stop signs anyway.

better safe than sorry

Posted 8 months ago #
dhg
Member Profile

I also think it is really stupid when people cross the street without looking for traffic. But I don't rant about it (not much, anyway) because it is an individual's choice. If he doesn't want to see what hits him, that's his right. But toddlers don't choose to be their daddy's bumper.

Playing "who's the victim here" is not the point, Al. The point is, trailer bikes are awfully fun but awfully dangerous on fast roads.

Posted 8 months ago #
Jill
Member Profile

I kind of agree with velo_nut. How exactly is posting some inflammatory rant that compares carrying a child in a bike trailer made for that specific purpose to suspending a kid over the edge of a balcony useful or even well meaning? Gee, but all of the nice suggestions about bike trails and how to get to them, I'm overwhelmed by the goodwill.

Of those who are condemning the parent about the lack of safety of these trailers, has anyone actually seen how the trailer operates or tried one yourself? And how does the safety level compare to that of putting a child in a car? Any facts or experience at all?

I don't see anything about the cyclist being blatantly inconsiderate or unsafe, for example, swerving unpredictably into traffic as if the load were too heavy. Maybe because that wasn't the case. Instead, it seems the opinions here are pretty much about judging others and your own perceived inconveniences. Not particularly useful.

Posted 8 months ago #
bikinginla
Member Profile

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, over 24,000 people were killed while riding in motor vehicles in 2009, the latest year for which records are available; 6,770 of those were passengers, many of them children.

In the same year, only 630 bicyclists were killed in traffic collisions throughout the United States; as near as I've been able to ascertain, none were riding in bike trailers.

So tell me — which is the more dangerous mode of transportation?

In fact, in the three years I've been writing about bicycle safety, I have yet to hear of a single case in which a child was killed while using a bike trailer. While it may have happened, it is exceeding rare.

Activities that seem safe, like riding a bike on the sidewalk or driving your children in the family car, can often pose more risk than activities that can appear dangerous until you examine the facts.

As other have pointed out here, the key isn't keeping small children from participating in otherwise safe and healthy activities, it's making sure that every driver understands the potential danger they pose to themselves and others by operating their vehicles in a careless, distracted or intoxicated manner.

As for that bike maven's call to allow cyclists to go through stop signs, that's what's known as an Idaho Stop law. It would allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yields, and roll through only when it is safe and when there is no conflicting traffic present. While it may seem counterintuitive, it actually improves safety at intersections, which is where most bike-involved collisions occur. In the years that a similar law has been in effect in Idaho, bicycling collisions have decreased despite a dramatic increase in ridership.

And thanks for the citation, Al — always nice to discover a reader so far away from the streets of L.A.

Posted 8 months ago #
localman
Member Profile

Just because something can be done does not mean it should.

There is a time a place for most things.

There are idiots behind the wheel who do not abide laws, like texting or talking on cell phones while driving, putting on makup, eating or just thinking about their problems and not paying attention to their driving.

A split second could end horribly for some small person whose only fault (in this hypothetical) is parentage.

I would not be willing to take that risk.

That said, nice quiet road with little traffic, ride on. Still some risk but not California Ave. on a busy day. There is inherent risk to life.

In my view this is just about using good judgement.

Posted 8 months ago #
bebecat
Member Profile

I have to say the 1st time I saw a child trailer in traffic, my jaw dropped! 1st thought? "Who would put their child in danger!" I could find no justification.

Posted 8 months ago #
cclarue
Member Profile

What localman and genhillone said!!!a bike trail is a great place for a toddler trailer but a busy road is not. Just one split second and a car could run over that trailer. Bikinginla.. You are proving my point with your statistics... Look at all the people killed in auto accidents each year.. They have a ton of metal surrounding them and are still dead so what about a baby with 20 lbs of aluminum and tent fabric against a motor vehicle? How does that work out...???

Posted 8 months ago #
Jill
Member Profile

Huh. I don't see anything here about which road this parent was using, how busy it was, or that he or she went out without making an informed judgment on how safe the particular route was at that particular time. Or that the parent had a mindless, unobservant ride, not ever paying attention to how busy/safe it was or whether it was worth doing again. I guess some people are just really insightful to know all that.

Posted 8 months ago #
DP
Member Profile

Odds of a kid getting injured on a bike trailer in Seattle:

Unknown at this time -- probably minute.

Odds of a bike-trailer parent changing his mind because of this thread:

Zero.

My guess is that anyone who thinks Seattle streets are safe enough for his/her own bike ride also thinks they are safe enough for a trailer.

I have a good friend who trailers and he's an excellent parent. If he ever asked me, I would disagree with this particular decision of his, but that doesn't diminish him as a parent in my eyes. He bikes his kids to the park and they spend a A LOT of time playing together! Anyway, you'll meet him in an upcoming SWiWS, so please be on your best behavior.

Oh, and another thing . . . The reason my friend rides surface streets to places instead of packing his bicycle/trailer rig into the car and driving there is . . . (anybody? anybody?) —because the whole idea was to leave the car in the garage.

*************************************************************************************

bikinginla said:

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, over 24,000 people were killed while riding in motor vehicles in 2009, the latest year for which records are available; 6,770 of those were passengers, many of them children.

In the same year, only 630 bicyclists were killed in traffic collisions throughout the United States; as near as I've been able to ascertain, none were riding in bike trailers.

So tell me — which is the more dangerous mode of transportation?

Dude, these statistics would mean a lot more if you compared deaths-per-trip rather than just straight-up deaths.

Divide car passenger deaths by car trips (or miles driven maybe). Then divide bike passenger deaths by bike trips (or miles.) Then you'll have a slightly clearer idea of how safe/dangerous it is to ride a bike in this country, relative to driving.

But even then, you'd actually have to drill still MORE deeply into the data to come up with a meaningful number for cyclists. For starters, you'd have to group the data by the following categories:

¶ What kind of streets were the bicyclists riding?

¶ What kind of safety equipment were they using?

¶ What were the relative levels of riding experience?

In the end, the data may well show that bike trailers are relatively safe. But as you quoted it? —Uh-uh. Sorry.

Posted 8 months ago #
sam-c
Member Profile

"Oh, and another thing . . . The reason my friend rides surface streets to places instead of packing his bicycle/trailer rig into the car and driving there is . . . (anybody? anybody?) —because the whole idea was to leave the car in the garage."

exactly - that first sunny day weekend day of Spring - when Alki got completely trashed- dad and son biked to the beach to enjoy. he knows how to ride a bike in traffic, and doesn't take any roads like Delridge, 35th etc. he's a great dad; keeps the kid safe. also, in case the nervous people were not aware, kids wear helmets too when they are riding in those things.
(I get more nervous when he's trotting down the sidewalk with the kid atop shoulders.)

Posted 8 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

This is how we do it in Holland...

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/pu5b_man_three_children_and_dog_all_on_bike.jpg

Posted 8 months ago #
WSB
Member Profile

Honored to see BikingInLA make an appearance here - he is an old friend, particularly of the male half of the WSB co-publisher team, one of two longtime pals who are having quite an influence on the web-publishing scene way down south.

I haven't been on two wheels in a year of Sundays, sadly. However, I think the fear/concern/suspicion still erupts largely from the fact the motoring "us" continue to outnumber the motorless "them," and perhaps when myriad factors - including the inevitable march of time - balance it a bit more, there won't be quite so much fear/concern/suspicion.

While I worry when I see a bike trailer too, I have long since seen the stats, and the reality is that the odds of death/injury ARE higher when we bundle our precious little ones into the false-sense-of-security-conveying steel chariots.

When we bundle ourselves into them, for that matter.

Maybe the only solution, if we are interested in one, is for more of us to haul ourselves onto 2 wheels if we can. (I'd need something really sturdy, but I could do it, still strong and healthy, thankfully.) I've read way too many of these biker-driver faceoff discussions in the past few years (the Times recently had one and used the term "bikelash") and just keep thinking there has to be a better way.

P.S. Some of the types of comparisons DP asked about seem to be here. Very long, gotta read through all the tables.

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

this is a very emotional subject for those of us who lost careful law abiding cycling friends to vehicle/bicycle collisions.

The vehicle always wins.

Posted 8 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

Beg to differ, Job... I was actually hit by a Ford Escort station wagon a few years ago and although I spent a bit in the hospital and it ruined my racing for that season, the car was totaled- Yes, Totaled and I didnt break a single bone (lucky?).
.
chalk one up for the cyclist.
.
My bike, however (which was twice as expensive as said Escort wagon) was totaled as well.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

velonut...

and how long was the driver of the Ford Escort Wagon hospitalized?

Posted 8 months ago #
bikinginla
Member Profile

Thank you for the kind welcome. I count Mr. WSB, and the lovely Mrs. WSB as friends of long standing, even if most of our correspondence is of the virtual variety these days,

The link to Ken Kifer's blog is particularly astute; his work is regarded as among the most insightful and well-researched on the subject of bicycle safety. Sadly, Ken himself was the victim a drunk driver while riding his bike near his home in Alabama in 2003; read into that what you will.

DP, unfortunately, we have to go with the statistics we have. Actual figures for miles ridden by cyclists each year remains the holy grail of both bike safety advocates and traffic planners. While reasonably accurate estimates of vehicular mileage can be ascertained from odometer readings and vehicle registration figures, there is no similar basis for estimating the number of bike riders in the U.S., let alone the miles they ride; even the best figures are little more than an educated guess. And as you point out, there are a number of other factors that go into bike safety, just as there are in motor vehicle collisions.

However, what can safely be concluded is that bicycling is far safer than many, if not most, people tend to think. And driving is far more dangerous than most people seem to realize.

Back to the original point of this thread, if bike trailers were as dangerous as some people seem to think, we would have countless reports of children killed using them. However, the contrary is true; there are few if any reports of such cycling fatalities. In fact, anecdotal reports indicate that many drivers seem to follow and pass more safely when riders are towing a child, as opposed to riding on their own.

As one who has had to report on 31 cycling deaths in Southern California this year alone, I take bicycle safety very seriously. If I saw the slightest evidence that bicycle trailers were as dangerous as some on here think, I would be the among the first to call for banning them.

Posted 8 months ago #
singularname
Member Profile

Do what you want. More power to ya. I'll continue to view parents/guardians toting their kid(s) at the same level of any motorized vehicle's tires on streets of 25 and over as extremely careless. Proportionally, there's as many idiotic bicyclists as there are drivers of motorized vehicles. There's at least a hundred things I wouldn't let my kid do, not because they weren't safe if left to his own devices, but because too many idiots are around that make it completely unsafe.

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

i'm with singularname: well-said.

it's a free country, and you cyclists can do what you want, of course. as a motorist, i share the road and i don't have a problem with that - unless you're being a jackass, of course.

but kid trailers? imho, it's akin to stepping out into a crosswalk expecting to stop traffic just because you have the right-of-way. sure, you can. sure, you are absolutely on the right side of the law. you can even feel smug and self-righteous about it.

but is it wise?

cite all of the stats you want, but the bottom line is that you're putting the lives of you and your kid in the hands of complete strangers. if you've ever driven a car around here - or simply observed traffic - you know that a lot of drivers possess questionable abilities, knowledge, and temperament. and sanity.

bikinginla: what if that stat rises to just one child killed in a bike trailer in 10 years? if it's your kid, is it worth being right?

Posted 8 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

Job-

one day longer than me. He wasn't wearing a seat belt.

Posted 8 months ago #
bikinginla
Member Profile

Sorry redblack, but that's the most absurd argument you could make.

By that same standard, no child should ever ride in a car, since motor vehicle collisions are the leading cause of death for children in this country. And no child should ever walk anywhere, since reports abound of children being killed by motor vehicles while walking on sidewalks and crosswalks.

And to answer your question, I would be just as devastated if my child was killed in a bike trailer as I was when my cousin was killed by a drunk driver while riding in the family car. Or when one of my childhood friends was killed while driving just before our senior year of high school — also at the hands of a drunk driver.

Any traffic death is tragic and heartbreaking, whether it's a child, a senior citizen or anyone else. If you really care about preventing them, as your comment implies, I'd suggest tackling the real threat on our streets that takes over 33,000 lives every year, rather than one that simply appears dangerous.

You might want to start by contacting your local chapter of Safe Routes to School (http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/saferoutes.htm) and working to make it safer for every child to walk or bike to school.

Posted 8 months ago #
dbsea
Member Profile

What an interesting topic. And also very interesting to read the different opinions, and to see the emotions kick in. I read the initial post as an emotional response to what was disturbing to that particular, and concerned, observer. I too am always a bit freaked when I see the child in the carrier. Their little bodies right there on the pavement. And, since I trust NO ONE when it comes to my children's safety, I'd never do it. But that's just my choice.

I don't believe others are terribly irresponsible because they do it. Heck, it might be sensational time spent between child and parent and there's never enough of that. We all judge threats, danger, fun, pleasure, morality etc. differently. What is the intent in any action? That, when combined with caring and thought should be what counts. We'll always disagree on the details.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

velo_nut...

at least he had the option of a seat belt...

this kind of irresponsible driver makes my point better than anything else could.
this is exactly why i wouldn't make the risk benefit call to have my kids on any kind of bike any kind of arterial

Posted 8 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

There's some really goofy logic being applied here. Just because someone thinks bicycle trailers are unsafe does not automatically make them pro-car and anti-bike. Ridiculous. Frankly, cars scare the crap out of me whether I'm inside of one or just trying to dodge them crossing the street. I absolutely support anything to get people out of cars. However, I'm also a pragmatist. While bike trailers might be fine on quiet streets or country roads, the reality is that a large (and apparently growing) percentage of drivers are insane morons. I would never risk a child's life to prove or disprove that point.

Posted 8 months ago #
NicNDuB
Member Profile

Aside from the question of visibility, my question about these bike trailers is about whether they expose the child to poisonous exhaust. When used in the road it has always seemed to me that the child would be right at muffler exhaust height.

Does anyone know if this aspect is an issue or if it has been studied?

Posted 8 months ago #
cwit
Member Profile

Anonyme - that's not the only bit of goofy logic in this thread. Why do people think the bike trailers are unsafe?

Pretty much the logic seems to be that the people using these bike trailers are negligent/abusive (i.e. using their babies as bike bumpers) because, well, there are bad drivers out there.

It seems the majority of arguments against their use is that there are some ignorant drivers out there that may run over them. So shouldn't the logic be that automobiles (or their drivers) are unsafe? Shouldn't more of this outrage go towards that?

As if a qualifier is needed, I don't identify as a cyclist (or 'you cyclists' as they've been referred to in this thread) - it just really seems weird to me the logic involved.

Lastly, how many people in here can recall when they've seen someone using a bike trailer in a arterial street such as 35th, etc? Do they see it often? Just curious.

Posted 8 months ago #
bebecat
Member Profile

I've seen it on California ave.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

cwit...

could it be that if you backed off being defensive about the judgment you think we are making about the parents that you might see that many of us are simply frightened for those children because we have plenty of evidence as to how recklessly drivers of automobiles can behave?

if it is so unsafe to cross the street that responsible drivers are choosing not to put pedestrians at more risk by stopping for them...

exactly how safe do you think it is for a kid on a bike trailer who is well below the driver's line of sight?

Posted 8 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

cwit, I have seen a bike trailer on 35th quite recently, as well as on California.

As I said before, I am a pragmatist. Cars are not going away, nor are ignorant and dangerous drivers - or ignorant and dangerous cyclists, for that matter. And yes, we SHOULD be outraged about that. Some of us actually are. Again, the argument seems to be that since cars are dangerous, we should not or DARE not concern ourselves over the safety of bike trailers. Please explain why the fact that cars are dangerous translates into trailers NOT being dangerous. I'm just not following that train of thought...

NicNDub, good point about the exhaust. All kinds of stuff happening down at street level.

Posted 8 months ago #
cwit
Member Profile

JoB - I'm not being defensive, I was just noting what I thought to be weird logic in what I felt to be derisive attitude about people using bike trailers from the get go. Again, I'll point out the title of this rant for an example. If that title is not judgmental, please forgive my misreading of it.

Anonyme - I'm not saying trailers are NOT necessarily dangerous. I'm just pointing out my opinion that the logic seems skewed to me in that aspect that I mentioned and that what you pointed out as being goofy logic isn't the only case of goofy logic.

If I were to use a trailer, I'd certainly be prudent about it (at least again, in my opinion) - using sidestreets, etc. The few times I have biked to work, I avoid the busy streets in W. Seattle as much as possible.

I didn't say that trailers are totally safe and can do whatever they want, just noting that there's more to it than negligent or careless parents that use dangerous trailers, which seems to be the tone in this thread.

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

wow. i'm not judging anyone, nor do i particularly care about children, for that matter. i'd like to see lighter, more efficient, and fewer single-occupant vehicles on the roads. the SUV should be outlawed as a dangerous extravagant monstrosity, or at least shunned and ridiculed. while i need a car for my construction job, if someone showed me a better way to lug 80 pounds of crap around with me to locations that change monthly or weekly, i'd consider it.

it's a simple matter of physics, which can be scary and deadly. a car will "win" against a bike or a ped (almost) every time. cars - noisy, polluting culprits in many manslaughter and homicide cases - are equipped with sensors, warning systems, airbags, and/or seat belts.

btw, when i learned to drive in the '80's, the rule about sharing the road with cyclists was "give them room to fall." where did this "give them 3 feet" crap come from? imho, that's way too close.

i also pretend that everyone around me in traffic - cyclists, peds, motorists - is drunk, stoned, distracted, or stupid. it's not a judgment; it's a defense mechanism, and it works.

look, i'm done here. i think that you're taking a mighty big risk if you put your kid in one of those trailers, and i wouldn't do it.

but it's a free country. so good luck.

Posted 8 months ago #
hoffanimal
Member Profile

Lots of BS passive-aggressive judging going on here. The fact is we all make choices about how we manage risk and raise our kids. What seems "crazy" to you is perfectly sane to me and vice versa. Of course a car will "win" against a ped or bike but follwing that argument, we should all just stay home unless we use our cars to get around. Just a meaningless statement pure and simple.

Posted 8 months ago #
Andy
Member Profile

Over and over again it keeps coming back to this supposed acceptance that the only reason anything cycling-related is a bad idea is because drivers are idiots, and what makes things dangerous is bad, stupid, careless drivers.

No matter how good the drivers are, and no matter how good the cyclists are, the sharing of the road between bikes and cars is inherently dangerous. They are two different things of different sizes, different speeds, different visibilities, different movements. It is simply an imperfect situation that can't really be fully resolved without having completely separate roadways for each. Which is a little on the impossible side.

I split my commuting fairly evenly between biking and driving. When I am on my bike, I see a lot of cyclists do stupid things that certainly don't help improve the safety out there. And drivers, too. We're all at each other's mercy out there, and the absolute worst thing about it is that we seem to really thrive on this contention between bikers and drivers. Everyone seems to need to be pro- or anti-everything. I can't imagine anyone coming away from this conversation feeling anything but worse about the relationship between cars and bikes on the road, and that's the sort of thing that REALLY makes it dangerous out there.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

bike paths..
if we can't fund bike paths maybe it's time we designate car free street alternatives for bikes...

Posted 8 months ago #
MB
Member Profile

andy, thank you for making some logical sense instead of being judgmental and emotional ;)

Posted 8 months ago #