This is very disturbing, apparently legal...
Someone killed an octo on eggs in Cove 2 at Seacrest. Photos of killer and prey. Makes me sick.
RANT: Octo hunting in Cove 2
This is very disturbing, apparently legal...
Unfortunately it's legal. Disgusting, but legal year round even during breeding/egg season. Ugh.
Only way to protect the area is to have it declared a conservation area.
That is totally revolting, and infuriating. Here I was thinking that most divers actually have some reverence for our natural water world, and an interest in protecting it. You'd think that even a dumbass human predator would have enough sense not to kill something sitting on EGGS. This makes me want to puke. Bring on the conservation petition!
MOST divers do. Some (like in anything) are jackwads.
wcdeb,I'm sure you're right. I wish one of them had been around to pull the plug on the jackwad.
If harm comes to this guys equipment or him personally because of pictures you posted. You might be in for a nice lawsuit. Especially since what he did was legal.
Before you all jump on the band wagon, you may want to know his version -
Accused diver: "For one, i didnt harvest this octo in the dive site. i swam many yards off and just used the dive site as a way in and out of the water. second i have my certs and tags, a game warden came by today to check and look at the remains of the octopus i harvested from yesterday and assured me i broke no law. last i would like to state my neighbor (one of the guys i hunt with) purchased a compressor. i have been filling free for the past week. last, this octo was not on eggs, i am outraged that things would be made up even if you dont like what i did. and because of all the drama you people are causing and i intend to harvest another this weekend. oh and btw i got bent from a faulty inflater. it would not stop filling so i shot to the surface. i would like to point out to anyone out there trying to incrimate me that i have never broken a dive or fishing law and i study the regs like a bible"
The news just ran a very, very different version of this story as reported by multiple witnesses. One of the witnesses claimed to have informed the diver that the octopus was probably there to lay eggs, and his response was "I know, I just took her off eggs". The version I heard on the news sounded a whole lot more credible than the childish, defiant, nonsensical rant quoted above. Does this guy really think anyone cares if he "got bent"?
Not a diver myself, so can someone explain to me WHY someone would "harvest" an octopus... I just can't fathom what one would do with one? Do you eat it? Put it in your giant aquarium? I just don't understand. Wouldn't even EVER cross my mind to do something like this.
I am a diver and love to octopi under the water. You don't see them under very often.
Yes it is very sad when such a beautiful creature is killed, and even sadder they are pretty easy to kill too.
Her is the link of pictures. Damn sad, this is a big one she has been around for a long time.
Because he posted that he will kill another octopus this weekend, I hope that some people here will click on the discussion at http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19454 to see the photos of his red pickup truck. Seeing it parked at Seacrest would mean an opportunity to talk about the situation with him.
Another discussion is taking place at https://www.facebook.com/bubblesbelow.
Both threads mention his bragging on Facebook about acts of animal cruelty and illegal spearfishing.
So I was at Cove 2 last night, but showed up as the individual was driving away. I will say this, I know the divers who confronted the individual on the beach, and they are held in very high regard within the local, and even national diving community.
In response to the individual's defense, which was copied from a fb forum, I offer this: The diver is a new diver who is not familiar with the culture of diving in the northwest. He is probably unfamiliar with the social norms he broke even. I am familiar with the equipment configuration he was diving and can assure everyone there is no way in which it is possible that he swam far enough away that it truely wasn't in an area that people dive. This site probably gets over 10,000 dives a year, and people use rebreathers, scooters, and other technical equipment to explore every inch. Not too long ago a diver was found in the West Seattle Ferry Lane after having been at a depth of 200+. Additionally the cove is surrounded on either side by Coves 1 and 3 which are also popular dive sites.
The laws for parks are not as well defined for the water as they are the land. What this individual did was the equivalent of hunting in a city park (if it were legal).
Alki's Cove 2 is probably the single most dove spot in the state. Even more this site is GREAT for beginners and people getting into diving. There are a lot of divers who have their first encounter with all types of sea creatures at Alki, and the Octopi there are a treasure for the state.
To those who are going to watch for this yet-to-get-it young man, remember that he may arrive in something other than a red pick-up.
My guess: his bravado is now completely deflated due to all the press and negativity towards him and he's learned a valuable lesson.
That's the context in which we originally were contacted last night and the context in which we will be writing about it. The first person we heard it from was hopeful it would spark a campaign to create a marine reserve in the area. At least one petition drive is already under way, I have heard - TR
I agree with brew and kitsapdiver 100%. This particular guy isn't the problem-- let's focus this understandable outrage into change. I'm a diver and member of Bottom Dwellers, a local LGBT dive club. I'd like to speak with anyone interested in exploring solutions. I think education is probably going to be an important tool. These animals are amazing, intelligent creatures, with a tragically short life span.
Your response above shows maturity and reasoning that I am happy to see from you. First off let me say that I do not condone anyone who has invaded your privacy in order to harass you, and as a member of the dive community I still realize that many of them have over stepped their bounds in their response. However what I ask you consider now is that this issue has become bigger than a disagreement between NWGratefulDiver and yourself.
What the dive community is trying to convey (admittedly some are spreading this word better than others) is that ALKI really isn't a great place to hunt because the animals are so used to divers, and it's a very popular training spot for OW classes. I am not sure how much diving experience you have but there are thousands of underwater hunters in Washington State and I would be willing to put you in touch with some of them who hunt actively for everything from Ling Cod to Sea Cucumber harvesting. The difference between what they do and what you do is that they head away from the popular dive spots and find other places to get in the water.
You're right, if the divers try to prevent you from entering the water at Cove 2 by means of force or harassment they're in the wrong. However please consider that a vengeance attitude is only going to prolong this discussion and make things worse! I certainly agree that you're rights have been violated and understand that you want to swing back at that group of people now, but I assure you that for all the people who have harassed you in some manner there are 10 fold who are disgusted by the story, do not want to see Octopi being taken from the water at Seacrest Park, but have not responded in such a radical manner. Please consider the entire diving community, and even the greater West Seattle community's beliefs on this issue.
As stated before if you would like me to put you in contact with people who can provide you information on sites where this activity is suitable, and you wouldn't get any grief let me know, and I can help you meet fellow hunters.
The 'if you don't like it, then I will kill another one' attitude makes me glad to not be that young anymore.
It sounds like cove 2 - and likely other dive spots in West Seattle - is more like a petting zoos due to the frequency of interaction between the marine life and divers. How can someone be "proud" of their catch in that environment? And just because you "can" do something doesn't mean you should. Being a 20yr old GUY isn't an excuse either. Sheesh!
If Dylan weren't lying about it being a male instead of a female on eggs, he could easily have posted a picture to show that it was a male.
It is easy to tell the sex of a GPO by looking. In males, the third arm on the right is modified and is usually held curled up a bit when moving about or interacting with divers--the animal uses that arm less for day-to-day activities. Hunting an animal without knowing at least that much, and it sounds like he doesn't, is like hunting deer without knowing the difference between a buck and a doe.
A photo wouldn't stop the criticism of having taken an animal beloved and visited by many at a popular spot, or the criticism of having illegally used dive knives to take it, or the criticism of having left the animal suffering and suffocating in the bed of a truck for a while afterwards because he had lost his knife in the struggle and didn't know how to kill it. But it would show that he wasn't lying about leaving a whole nest of eggs to die.
I would like to clear something up. this is directed towards the thread on the nw dive club site. i dont "torcher animals" i butcher. i live in farm country. that cow kicking on the ground you say is suffering, well its actually dead, my friend shot it in the head, it died instantly, go ahead and research why things kick around after they die. i am even associated with the FFA and teachers from high school to this day still call me and ask me to help them educate the students on how to properly prepare farm animals and exotic animals for growth and human consumption. and the porky pine football thing was a joke, i can be dumb but i wouldnt kick or hurt the thing, i got quailed because i simple tryed to just touch it and it slapped me with its tail. i ask you try and stop making up stories that are not there.
Translated for the educated;
"I would like to clear something up. (This is directed towards the thread on the NW Dive Club site.) I don't "torture animals" - I butcher. I live in farm country. That cow kicking on the ground that you say is suffering, well, it's actually dead - my friend shot it in the head. It died instantly. Go ahead and research why things kick around after they die.
I am even associated with the FFA and the teachers from high school, to this day, still call me. They ask me to help them educate the students on how to properly prepare farm and exotic animals for growth and human consumption. And the porcupine football thing was a joke. I can be dumb, but i wouldn't kick or hurt the thing. I got quailed because I simply tried to just touch it, and it slapped me with its' tail. I ask that you try and stop making up stories that are not true."
" If a man aspires towards a righteous life, his first act of abstinence is from injury to animals."
~Albert Einstein, Nobel Prize Physics 1922
Dylan the fact that you admitted on your facebook page that you spearfish at Edmonds Underwater Park shows that you have no respect for hunting laws or the creatures themselves. It is appalling that you would hunt at an area that IS protected and illegal to hunt at.
Some advice for you, for what it’s worth. I can somewhat identify what you are going through. What is done is done. There is no going back. What matters now is how you handle it in the future. As you are aware, the Dive community is very tight. Unless you want to be out casted and continually harassed, you will need to make amends.
In post #22 above, Kitsapdiver extended an invitation to put you in touch with other divers who share your interest. I highly recommend that you take him up on it. Not only could it calm the current situation, but it could open up future possibilities for you.
I would also suggest you sit down with other leading members of the dive community, on a one on one basis, and just listen to what they have to say. I think you will be surprised to find that they will be more interested in educating rather than accusing. Believe me, I know how hard it is to swallow the pride and bury the ego, but you need to.
I have also read that you have been a member of the LAX “hood”, so you should be well aware of the saying and meaning of “Honor the Game”. Now is the time to show the honor.
Brew, i have stated that i would like to speak to these people. and once again i did not know i was going to offend people with this considering ive seen people do it. that being said, every attempt ive made to be reasonable someone has responded by saying i spell things wrong, i am a punk kid, or im lieing. and once again ide like to state that the octo had no eggs. go look for your self. however i was told never to stand down if i beleiven something, and i wont. no matter how many death threats or fabricated stories you people throw at me.
Interesting that another blogger spoke to the WDFW and they confirmed that Dylan is actually 17 years old. In an earlier post on this thread (now deleted) he claimed to be 20 years old.
I call that LYING.
Nor do I call threats to go out and "kill another one" (octopus) an attempt at being "reasonable".
But there's really no point in wasting another minute talking to, or about, this individual. We really need to be looking at the next step, which is getting the area protected and/or making it illegal to "harvest" (disgusting, cowardly term) these animals during the time they sit on eggs. Someone mentioned a petition of sorts...anyone know the link?
I'm also wondering if more conscientious divers can't keep an eye on the animals that are left, much as Seal Sitters protects young seals. I realize that seals are protected and octopuses are not, but that shouldn't prevent a diver from being in an area that just happens to block access to a sitting mom.
Well said anonyme. Bring on the petition to make this a protected area.
my birthday is 11/23/92..... im days away from twenty..... im in college..... i have my diploma....
This may be someone posing, could be trying to get a reaction from people. Sign the petition, ignore those trying to distract from it.
It’s not about backing down. It’s about compromise. Being defensive and arguing the point is not going to get you anywhere. It will only make things worse. Like I said before, sometimes you just need to swallow the pride and bury the ego to get the results that you want.
I know you didn’t do anything illegal and truly believe you don’t feel like what you did was wrong, nor expected this type of outcry. However, it is how you precede that will determine the outcome. This could, and probably will, have an effect on the rest of your life. It’s important to nip it before it gets even worse. The only way you are going to achieve this is discussing it with those that are reasonable and by being proactive vs. reactive.
There are 2 groups of people involved, those that will threaten and harass you regardless, and those that are trying to reach out and help resolve the situation. It’s my opinion that you need to latch on to those that are reaching out. Maybe offering to be the first to sign the petition to make popular dive sites a “No Take Area”.
“But there's really no point in wasting another minute talking to, or about, this individual.”
You couldn’t be more wrong.
brew and kitsapdiver,
How do you find such compassion in your hearts for someone who pulled an animal out from its home and repeatedly punched it?
People don't punch things to get food. People punch things to hurt them. Hunters kill things as humanely as they can. They don't punch animals.
The talk about some kind of legal protection for gpo's at site is interesting, but I am more concerned that someone chose our community as a place to do something gut-wrenchingly cruel, and he has said that he will do it again.
Responding to this:
"For one, i didnt harvest this octo in the dive site. i swam many yards off and just used the dive site as a way in and out of the water."
I've probably 200+ dives in cove 2 and have covered the ground roughly a mile north and south of there with scooters, from roughly 170' to the surface. Divers use those areas and see the critters there, so we still consider this to be spitting in our face to take an octo from the area.
For the non-divers in the crowd, this also simply strikes me as dylan flat-out lying. He was spotted taking an octo from Cove 2 which is the middle cove with Cove 1 and Cove 3 on either side. He would have had to have kicked hundreds of yards either direction, burning 20-30 minutes of air, to get to the edge of what is the divable area by starting in Cove 2. Plus once you get outside of the divable area the bottom becomes flat and muddy with little structure for octos. He would have then had to drag the octopus hundreds of yards back to Cove 2 to exit -- so he is almost certainly lying that he didn't take the octo out of one of the dens in the dive site which are commonly visited by divers.
I'm positive he took it from one of the dens that are nearly under where the water taxi is, or from the honey bear in between Cove 1 and Cove 2, and this statement that he didn't take it from the diving area is simply a lie.
I cannot understand why we allow so much hunting of octos anyway.News said one a day is legal?? Are there that many out there? Is that true that someone ,anyone,can hunt one per day if they have a license?
Ok since you hunted this poor creature . True hunters eat their kill are you?
I just listened to this story on the Ron and Don show tonight. I think Bob Bailey and some people of the diving community should be worried about an upcoming lawsuit. It does not matter if they agree with what was done with the octopus or not it was completely legal. Dylan followed the Fish & Wildlife rules to the T.
Must be caught with hands or instrument which does not penetrate the OCTOPUS, except that octopus taken while angling with hook and line may be retained.
except MARINE AREA 12 GIANT PACIFIC Year-round No min. size. Daily limit 1. NO CHEMICALS OR IRRITANTS ALLOWED.
MARINE AREA 12 ALL SPECIES CLOSED"
No laws were broken and he has been slandered received death threats, and suffered personal and financial loss due to one mans championing of his personal views at the expense of a fisherman that was following the law of Washington State.
There are several ways a person must go about proving that libel has taken place. For example, in the United States, first, the person must prove that the statement was false. Second, the person must prove that the statement caused harm. Third, the person must prove that the statement was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement
1. It has been stated that the Octopus was female when a) Bob Bailey was not down there and had no way of knowing the sex of the Octopus and b) a fish and wild life official had inspected the octopus and said no laws were broken. The female Octopus statements are lies.
2)Dylan has stated on the radio that he lost his job due to this. Financial harm
3) There could not have been much research put in by Bob Bailey or else he would have known that what Dylan did was completely legal and there was no call to defame him.
If I were a lawyer I would be very interested in this case.
Dude, you killed an animal in the equivalent of a petting zoo. Hell of a sportsman.
Does any good karma get bestowed on this guy if he ends up being the catalyst that officially protects the coves?
Clearly if Dylan is getting death threats over this that's one thing.
But while this is legal to hunt these octos, its also perfectly legal to speak out against it. We all have the freedom of speech, particularly divers like Bob Bailey. Bob has the freedom to take the pictures, the freedom to post them. Dive shops in the area have the freedom to deny anyone they like to their shops and their compressors and deny anyone they like training.
This is what happens when you do something which is perfectly legal in the eyes of the law, but which which community standards judge you to be a asshole. And myself and Bob saying that Dylan is an asshole isn't defamatory, its our opinion, and that is protected first amendment speech.
And the Seattle dive community is surprisingly small and has long memories and he's going to be banned in a lot of dive shops, he's going to be banned by a lot of instructors and anyone he dives with is going to have these articles pointed out to him. But far from being a 'victim' when he was doing something 'perfectly legal' that means that he really should have thought this through a bit more before he did it, and particularly after there was outrage and he decided to announce that he'd come back and do it again.
Sure what he did was legal, but he's got most of the dive community around puget sound (and a lot of people around the world) who think he's an asshole who we don't want to deal with, and nobody can force us to think otherwise or accept him. Legally he doesn't have a case against us... Although if people are giving him death threats they should stop that crap, immediately.
And if he lost his job over this, then that's good and its a "teachable moment" for him and nobody can sue anyone over it. That is the consequences of his actions. His employer does not need to employ anyone who is getting bad press all over the news. The fact that its a free country applies to Bob and me, and the dive shops and the news media and his former employers.
Hammerhead this is for you. yes i did eat the octopus (some of it) and i also gave much of it to my old high school teachers that i often still work with. i still have most of it in my freezer. i will also state that nothing was wasted
for the rest of you. i would like to state that i do regret fishing in the spot i did. but if you saw it the way i did (seeing other fishermen and dive shops not seeming to care when i said i was going to fish it) you wouldn't have thought there was a problem either. if someone would have just came and told me nicely instead of confronting me bluntly and rudely, i would have released it. however the community (not everyone) felt the actions they took were necessary.
Kooth: GOOOD ONE!!!!
"And if he lost his job over this, then that's good and its a "teachable moment" for him and nobody can sue anyone over it. That is the consequences of his actions. His employer does not need to employ anyone who is getting bad press all over the news. The fact that its a free country applies to Bob and me, and the dive shops and the news media and his former employers."
You do have the freedom to speak what you like. But when lies are told (saying it was a female octopus which seems to have really made it look a lot worse) without credible research and with the intent to harm a person's reputation it is called libel and that is against the law and has been since before the American Revolution.
It does not matter what you, or I, or Bob Bailey, or even the whole dive community think of him. It is against the law to spread lies that inflict harm.
Bob claimed that Dylan said that the octo was on eggs. It sounds like when he was confronted that Dylan decided to mouth off, and Bob reported that. And we still only have Dylan's statement that the octo wasn't on eggs. This gets into he-said-she-said territory which would immediately get thrown out by any judge in a defamation lawsuit.
And having known Bob for 8 years, I'm going to believe his account that Dylan said that. I don't know if Dylan was lying that the octo was on eggs just to get a rise out of Bob, or if Dylan is lying now that the octo wasn't on eggs and it actually was.
Given that I'd be willing to bet money that Dylan pulled the octo out of the diving area and has later lied about it, I'm not all that inclined to believe him. And I suspect that if you put Bob and Dylan before any judge, who is halfway competent at spotting a bullshit artist, I know which one is going to come out on top.
Pretty much everything Lamont has said is spot on.
Dylan, whether you knew it or not at the time, you went to the most popular dive site in the region, pulled out a 9 foot, 70lb GPO, most likely a female, and beat her to death in front of several divers. Even if you didn't realize how much your actions offended and upset those people and everyone in the dive community who later heard about it, you do now.
You owe the community a sincere apology. Which I haven't heard from you yet. And at this point, you've lied several times to the media and in your stories on this board so it will be hard to believe you anyway. But give it a shot. The only thing that is going to make this stop is your acknowledgement that you made a huge mistake and you're really sorry and it won't happen again. Meaning, you will never hunt in Cove 2, let alone grab an octopus there and beat it to death in front of people. OK? Not too much to ask, I hope.
Thank you for your response. You know sometimes it's the questions that we don't even know to ask that jump up and bite us! I'm a young single dude in my 20's too (although a little later in my 20's than you) and damn the hardest lesson to learn is learning when to just admit that I just didn't know! I can be bull-headed sometimes and can probably relate to where you've been the last 48 hours.
That being said I still offer the hand that I extended in post 17 above that I will help you meet the right people if you are still interested in hunting in a manner that the community would find ethical.
I think in some regards man you can change the public perception 180 degrees if you sign the petition to protect Cove 2 (not end hunting, just hunting at cove 2) at the link below:
You could become the spokesman for this effort and I could not imagine a more powerful voice for conservation than from someone who learned the hardway!
Additionally as a side note (and not being a hunter I'll admit I don't know how relevant this is) please be aware this area has been closed in regards to shellfishing for pollution....
Here is public information published elsewhere, a twitter picture posted the afternoon after the killing: http://twitter.com/DaniMayer1/status/264132484248240129
When you say in comment 41 that nothing was wasted, why is so much of the animal visible on the ground? How much of what is on the ground the day after the kill did you eat or otherwise use?
I am not in your shoes so I don't fully understand why you are reacting the way you are. Let me start by saying that I am sorry you or your family have been subject to threats of violence -- that is both wrong and uncalled for. And I am the first to agree that you acted in a perfectly legal manner.
But I don't think legal and right are always the same thing. For example, you say you checked to make sure it was a female with eggs. It actually appears to be legal to take a female with eggs -- yet you didn't want to do that. An example of the difference between legal and right.
I understand how you might not have understood in advance what a big deal it was -- and why it was the wrong place -- but it sounds like in post 41 you get it.
I was not there for the interaction on the beach so I have no idea how rude you were or how rudely you were treated. This might be hard to hear but some of your own comments have done yourself no favor.
If you truly are doing this for the food (and still have 50# in the freezer), why would you say you plan to go again the next day? If you truly believed it to be a male, why did you say "When he asked me what if it was protecting its eggs, I said well its not now sarcastically." If you truly take responsibility for your actions, why would you say you had nothing to do with snake and the firecracker -- all you did was take and post the photo (how is that nothing?)?
Free advice: This incident and the stuff on your websites has defined you in the minds of many. That isn't fair -- it is out of context and ignores the many good things you have likely done. But it is reality -- and litigation would not fix the problem. But accepting the olive branch offered by some, combined with a bit of contrition might go a long way....
Casimir81 (posts 37 and 43):
I hope you don't plan to sit for the Washington bar exam anytime soon. Pulling a quote from wiki is not the same as understanding the case law in Washington for both libel and SLAPP.
I'll just leave it at that.
Good article on NW Sportsman:
I'm also troubled by the narcissistic tone of the hunter's posts. The lying, combined with a strong sadistic bent, seem to indicate a personality devoid of either compassion or an awareness of consequences. This is indicated not simply by the act of bludgeoning the octopus in front of horrified onlookers, but the almost glib description of a cow writhing on the ground after "a friend" shot her in the head - as well as the firecracker and snake report. If any of this is true (most of it reported by the hunter himself) this paints a troubling picture.
I've lived on a farm where animals were butchered, and the farmer (my uncle, whose family had been farming for generations) always approached butchering with dread. There was no fascination with suffering, and a pall fell over the homestead for several days after a slaughter.
Anotherthought has it right: expressing a personal opinion and/or discussing a report made second-hand is not libel. If it were, there could be no evening news.
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