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(25 posts)

RANT - Empty Buses


  1. Sea3006
    Member Profile

    Why does King County metro run so many articulated buses when bus usage is light? These things clog up the streets, get much worse fuel economy than a standard size bus, and also beat up the roads more. Its so common to see these and standard buses empty rolling around West Seattle. They should cut back service and do the environment and tax payers some good.

    I do not accept justification that "... if every body rode the bus then these buses would make sense and there would be less congestion." Sorry, the market is making the decision here - most people hate riding buses. Our culture is largely incompatible with buses outside of NYC, Boston, SF and not many other places.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  2. metrognome
    Member Profile

    well over 100,000,000 rides a year is hardly an indication that 'most people hate riding buses.' If you include Sound, Pierce and Community Transit, the figure goes up considerably. Just think how clogged our streets would be if we adopted your suggestion.

    Also, 60' artics do not get 'much worse fuel economy than a standard sized bus' as the engine and transmission are sized for the bus. Many Metro buses are now hybrid and during times of lower acceleration run on stored electricity generated by the bus. The cost of the driver is the main operating cost and a driver of a 60 footer gets paid on the same wage scale as the driver of a 40 footer.

    In addition, a lot of buses tend to be on the road all day long; each assignment can include trips on a variety of routes. It clearly wouldn't be cost effective to have an artic return to base and a 40 footer driven out to start a route just because the anticipated passenger load won't fill an artic. Also, 60 footers may be assigned to routes at off-peak times so that maintenance can be done on the 40 footers.

    All the diesel buses run on clean diesel engines and use a mix that includes biofuel. How exactly does that harm the environment?

    For anyone who's interested:

    http://metro.kingcounty.gov/am/reports/reports.html

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  3. You Go Metrognome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  4. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Retired metro driver?. If you are headed for a day in the cubicle it works for ya...There is nothing about metro that fits my lifestyle or occupation. Used to let the critter ride to school on it.... stopped for safety reasons. As the stoic bus driver ignored the sexual harassments, the threats of violence, and the actual bus stop assaults....Now I have two additional round trips to school to throw into the equation and schedule. We are too mobility dependent to increase ridership on metro. Can you imagine trying to run a flexible day through metro? Ye gads... what a waster of time. Funny though, when I go home to NYC...the buses actually are more convenient. Something about metro is not working. Too much waiting and terrible scheduling integration. I gave up on it except for baseball games.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  5. metrognome
    Member Profile

    kman -- if you have the money to buy a clue, check out my screen name. And no, I wasn't a bus driver; and I doubt that you have what it takes to be one. And, I'm glad you don't use Metro if it doesn't meet your needs; there is a reason it's called 'public' transportation not 'cab service' or 'kootchman's limo' -- it's not intended to meet every single trip or even the majority of trips. You may think NY is 'better' but consider it has a grid street system and fewer geological challenges ... and it was built around a mass transportation system. And, it's not that good, if all the press I read over 20 years is accurate. I won't even bother listing the awards Metro has won as I can already read your response ... almost like I'm psychic!!

    You might try going on the American Public Tranportation Ass'n website and search for articles by noted (real, not neo-) conservatives Paul M. Weyrich and William S. Lind ... here, I'll make it easy for you:

    How Transit Benefits People Who Do Not Ride It: A Conservative Inquiry

    http://apta.com/gap/policyresearch/Documents/how_transit_benefits.pdf

    summary: Nonusers encounter less congestion, save money, and see the values of their homes go up because of transit service.

    p.s. have no idea what your 'cubicle' snark means, as per usual.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  6. there is nothing in the world that Kman won't complain about, and I doubt there's much that will make him happy, except for more money, tax free, in his pocket. Even then I'm betting he would complain about it not getting into his bank account fast enough.

    <snark>

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  7. kootch...

    you did have another alternative to those round trip car rides you think were necessitated by the "lack of safety" on your kid's bus.

    You could have ridden with her.

    Yup.. that would have taken time out of your day..
    but you live a flexible lifestyle. ;->

    and think of the conservative hero points you would have gained making that bus trip safe for all :)

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  8. Talaki34
    Member Profile

    Sea3006, I have often wondered the same thing. These large buses run on routes that may be filled during peak hours in the week, but have a definite lack of riders during off hours or on the weekends. I know a few that do ride the bus and they too have asked the same question.

    On some of these routes a bus the size of a Dial-a-Ride vehicle would probably do just fine. Smaller buses might even be a possible alternative in areas where they are thinking of doing away with routes altogether.

    I spent about seven years in Germany and have traveled throughout Northern Europe. What I found fascinating is the ability of the buses and trains to run on time. I never had to worry about missing a bus connecting to a train or vice versa. I found the transportation clean, comfortable and safe. I also liked that where the big lines stop, smaller independently owned service on a reduced scale of some type is generally available.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  9. velo_nut
    Member Profile

    velo_nut

    I would like to know why busses stop 4 times in 4 blocks... why not make just 1 stop in 2 blocks?

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  10. velo-nut..

    perhaps you should be grateful you are still able to run those two blocks to catch a bus..

    some of those who most need bus service can't.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  11. skeeter
    Member Profile

    Responding to the original post - I don't think people hate riding the bus because it's a bus or they love their car. I think most people do a cost and time benefit analysis and decide what method of transportation is fastest and cheapest and then choose that option. I know that is what I do. If the bus is cheapest and fastest, then I'll take the bus. If the car is cheaper and faster, I'll take the car. If it's about the same, then I'll take the bus since that produces the least emissions (the bus will run either way) and decreases traffic overall.

    In my experience, King County buses are clean, in good condition, run on time, and are safe.

    If you have a specific question like why a large bus is used instead of a smaller bus since the large bus is only 1/4th full, ask the bus driver. They are usually friendly and quite aware of why decisions are made. I suspect the reasoning has been thought through.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  12. Jiggers
    Member Profile

    Jiggers

    Buses are clean skeeter? Wow! King County busses are passed there death beds. They are pretty worn down interior wise and I wonder how the maintenance on the engines are. They reek. I have to ride one everyday.They can't afford to build new ones. But they are trying there darnest to shove Rapid Ride down our throats.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  13. Metro works pretty well for commuters

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  14. skeeter
    Member Profile

    Jiggers (post #12)- I don't take the bus very often. But I do take it once in a while. In my experience the busses have been pretty clean. But if you ride one every day, I'd say you're a better judge than me.

    I think the secret to happiness in life is low expectations. :-)

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  15. metrognome
    Member Profile

    comparing European and American (particularly West Coast) public transportation systems is really apples and oranges. Most major European and east coast/upper midwest American cities developed around fixed systems (subways, els, commuter rail) while very few West Coast cities did. The major reason is that the wild, wild West is predominantly a car culture; now that the cities are developed, it is very difficult to retrofit a fixed guideway system. Unfortunately, Seattle area voters turned down chances to build a rail system in the late 60's and early 70's; otherwise, we would be in the fourth or fifth phase of construction rather than early in the second.

    As far as the jitneys and smaller vehicles in European cities, Metro is not a city system -- it is a county system serving a much vaster area and running much longer routes (2,100 sq miles with a population of nearly 2 million.) Circulator routes have been tried numerous times and in different configurations and they generally do not attract enough riders in the urban areas; they do work well in the suburbs, which have several DART routes. Private bus operators have pretty much chosen to stick to charter service in this area.

    Metro does buy 25' vans as well as 25' and 30' medium duty buses; these are used primarily in low ridership areas or locations with narrower streets. Metro buys for peak needs; if they bought a lot more 40' buses, you would be passed by a lot more often. Again, the cost of running 60' buses is marginally more expensive than using 40' buses.

    Jiggers, I don't know what route you ride but most WS routes have newer buses running on them (I'm guessing the 21 as it is still running older buses.) Metro is actually receiving new buses right now; the older high-floor artics and 40' diesels will be phased out (they will likely be sold to a smaller transit agency in the US or to Mexico or farther south.) Metro's average fleet age (9.3 yrs) is younger than most transit agencies; even though the buses are rotated to even out mileage, they are still heavily used before they retire (the fleet traveled 50.3 million miles in 2010.) Since federal $$ are used on all public bus purchases, federal rules govern fleet age and other characteristics.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  16. trains running on time in Europe. I remember once, in 1974, taking a train from Frankfurt to Heidelburg. I was in the army at the time, had duffelbag, one other bag. Was riding with a couple of other personnel. We literally had to shove our bags out the window when we stopped, so we could hurry to get off, since the train would not wait for us slowpoking around. When they say they run on time, they mean they run on time!

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  17. olive.and.june
    Member Profile

    olive.and.june

    Routes 120 and 125 are always packed - thorough the day and at max capacity during rush hours.

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  18. olive.and.june
    Member Profile

    olive.and.june

    er. *through out the day? lol I screwed up that sentence... my bad

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  19. Caught an articulated 120 Downtown, last Tuesday evening around 9:00 pm, that was pretty well packed with standing room only, for much of the ride, nearly to White Center.

    Mike

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  20. There are many times of the day when roads and even freeways are pretty empty, so should we not build, maintain and repair roads?

    I think Metro is great, I rely on it to get me to work and back home, to go downtown for events and to shop: a rave for our buses and their drivers!

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  21. maryws: judging by the state of our roadways, that's the logic at work currently!

    Posted 3 months ago #         
  22. westseamike
    Member Profile

    I think the bigger issue is the idea that we can cram 60' articulated busses on the same path as loads of other 60' and 40' busses, taxis, tow trucks, and passenger vehicles downtown. All trying to go somewhere at the same time, trying to take the same exit onto the same roads. The other night I tried a new route home after picking up my daughter. 1st eventful fun was watching the articulated Sound Transit bus force the lady in front of me to drive onto the curb since she had been sitting in traffic before and was about to move forward when the bus decided it was his lane. So, she's on the curb, I'm behind her and he's now blocking the lane next to us and our lane so he could unload 1 passenger downtown...1...really. So now the other cross traffic has the green light, as ours has turned red while waiting for him to let off 1 passenger. The cross traffic flow continues until a 40' Metro bus decides to run the red and take a right... but oops, there's no room. So now we have multiple directions of traffic at a stop even though there's a green light for us again, we can't move and 60' Sound Trasit bus continues to block 2 lanes. After yet another round, the Sound Trasit bus moves forward into the lane I'm in and goes though the intersection... part way, cause traffic is backed up. So now he's blocking one lane for the cross traffic. Eventually he moves forward enough that my lane and the cross traffic can flow again.

    Phew... thank goodness that was over. Now we go to getting onto 99 from Columbia. DOH, another 60' bus trying to run the red and make the right turn onto 99 onramp. OH crap, the 40' Meto on Columbia waiting to go through the light at 1st is mad at him cause he blocked him, so he just says 'screw you hippies' and blocks the ENTIRE intersection at 1st and Columbia. Battle of the busses eventually moves forward after 2 light rotations. I'm almost to Columbia, I'm about to turn right, when BOOYA, Taxi crazy man turns right from the left lane!

    Moral of the story? Avoid anywhere busses and taxis are. Oh and avoid the single speed fixie biker that is straight out of Portlandia, he hates your side mirror.

    Posted 2 months ago #         
  23. westseamike...I'll go ya one better...avoid downtown like the plague - lol. Yeah, I live AND work at home :)

    Posted 2 months ago #         
  24. I am currently in Beijing and therefore am finding this conversation especially amusing.

    Posted 2 months ago #         
  25. datamue..

    i'll bet you are :)

    Posted 2 months ago #         

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