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1. cjboffoli
   Member Profile

   

   I guess it must be a measure of how bad the economy is and how desperate (or motivated) some small businesses are to find new customers. But I'm disappointed at how many solicitors simply ignore the signs we've posted that read "No Soliciting/No Trespassing."

   Real estate fliers, take-out menus, DEX phone books (despite multiple requests not to get them) all keep showing up on our doorsteps. Today my entire neighborhood near the Junction was blanketed with fliers from 2 Guys and a Bucket window cleaning. As if the fliers under the windshield wipers of our cars weren't enough, they left them at the door too. By this afternoon white fliers were blowing all over the street.

   One of my neighbors complained to the owners of 2 Guys and a Bucket reminding them that it is a violation of the SMC to ignore "No Solicitor" signs. The owner sent him back a really arrogant e-mail saying that they'd advertise however they liked and they didn't need his business anyway. Nice.

   Does anyone really respond to this kind of advertising? I've done plenty of marketing in my career and the response rate for paper fliers left door to door must be in the range of hundredths of a percent. Isn't it enough that we're bombarded with commercial messages just about every waking hour of the day? Is it unreasonable to expect that people not trespass on one's private property to deliver unsolicited, unwanted commercial messages?

   Posted 2 years ago #         

2. datamuse
   Member Profile

   

   I don't think it's unreasonable, but it seems to happen a lot. (Though not to us--I think that's because our house is fairly secluded, though, rather than due to any measures we've taken.)

   I have a friend whose doormat says "Go Away" on it and she STILL gets sales calls, missionaries, political canvassers, you name it.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

3. WSratsinacage
   Member Profile

   I agree cjb. I have people ignore my signs too. My partner and I received a second set of phonebooks about a week later .. I guess myself and our neighbors brought our first set in too quickly.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

4. flowerpetal
   Member Profile

   

   I certainly don't condone door to door soliciting, but I can believe that some people approaching your friend's door Datamuse, might think that the door mat message is meant to cause a chuckle; and not serious.
   cjb asks if anyone responds to door to door solicitors. I think it must be a useful business tool for some; otherwise it wouldn't be done. Some businesses are savvy about their marketing dollars; home security companies comes to mind.

   And then there's businesses called Two Guys and a Bucket. I'm not sure they are savvy about marketing at all!

   Posted 2 years ago #         

5. flowerpetal
   Member Profile

   

   Our house is on a corner and we regularly get two sets of phone books, door hangers, etc. We are frequently chasing Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses out of our gated back yard!

   Posted 2 years ago #         

6. datamuse
   Member Profile

   

   flowerpetal, I'd agree except that she also has a "No Soliciting" sign. She's had people actually tell her in so many words that they thought that applied to everyone but them (and at least one who claimed not to know what "soliciting" meant).

   Posted 2 years ago #         

7. flowerpetal
   Member Profile

   

   Thanks Datamuse for filling in the story. The audacity, or is it stupidity? of some people makes me chuckle.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

8. cjboffoli
   Member Profile

   

   I think these people who are distributing fliers THINK it is a useful marketing tool but they can't be doing any results tracking because it honestly isn't. And in fact I was sort of in the market for a new window cleaner after Paneless recently shot themselves in the foot here in the WSB Forums by dissing West Seattle. So if the goal by distributing fliers was to gain new business they've had the opposite effect by annoying everyone with their fliers.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

9. beachdrivegirl
   Member Profile

   

   I work in copy machine sales. I solicit for my job. Without soliciting the company I work for would, and myself not have consistantly had growth for the past seven plus years, including 2009, in a bad economy. I dont know if B2B solicitation has different results than B2C but I do know for a fact B2B works.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

10. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    B2B? B2C?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

11. datamuse
    Member Profile

    

    B2B: business-to-business; B2C: business-to-customer.

    For me, they are different. I'm a librarian and responsible for part of a $1 million yearly acquisitions budget (and that's modest, by the way; library resources are expensive). As part of that, I expect to receive vendor contacts.

    Even there, though, there are ways and ways of contact. The rep who showed up at my workplace without calling first is very unlikely to ever get any business from me; I am *very* busy and do not have time to drop everything and respond to an unsolicited sales call.

    On the other hand, if I visit a vendor at ALA (which I'll be doing this weekend) and speak with a rep about a product, I would expect a follow-up from that vendor.

    In part because I spend so much of my workday dealing with sales solicitations, the last thing I want when I get home is to deal with more of them. Flyers in my mailbox are inoffensive, though I've never bought anything because I got a flyer about it; unsolicited ads go straight to the recycling bin.

    Stuff stuck to or near my door, however, is unsightly and annoying.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

12. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks Datamuse! Your moniker fits you well!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

13. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    http://tinyurl.com/lkv7qo

    http://www.cafepress.com/cp/moredetails.aspx?showBleed=false&ProductNo=176020669&colorNo=0&pr=F

    http://www.allaboutsignsonline.com/images/products/36167%20New%20No%20Soliciting.jpg

    http://tinyurl.com/lpttvq

    http://bp0.blogger.com/_0si0w45rmso/SDAieqOs8KI/AAAAAAAAADA/Y8OoGZWAzgI/s1600-h/nosoliciting-sign.jpg

    Posted 2 years ago #         

14. cjboffoli
    Member Profile

    

    beachdrivegirl: There is selling (as in actively approaching a carefully targeted audience in a professional way) and then there is the extremely passive shotgun method of leaving a cheaply photocopied flier on someone's car or stuck in someone's door. Whereas you may have a very high success rate with a face-to-face visit, leaving a flier will have a fractional response rate if any.
    .
    JanS: Nicely done. Good stuff. :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

15. MargL
    Member Profile

    I'll bet bags full of rocks and fliers left in the street, sidewalk, alleyways and end of drives have a phenomenal response rate of 100% negative feedback.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

16. woofer
    Member Profile

    WSratsinacage - where do you return your phonebooks? Maybe we can arrange to have a neighborhood drive to "resupply" the distributor with the unwanted ones they leave at our houses every 3 - 6 months?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

17. Kevin
    Member Profile

    IF you have the time and are looking for some cheap amusement. Hold on to the flyer long enough to let the solicitors forget they canvassed the area.

    Then, give them a polite call requesting their "free" estimate. Greet them warmly and make sure to take up a lot of their time with intelligent sounding questions.

    At this point, you have two choices - give them the copy of the flyer that they left. Or, if you wish to torment them further, tell them you will "think" about it, "talk to your spouse" or whatever.

    Likely they will follow up since they see they have some interest. Now you can either tell them "no" and call it a day, or bring them back out a second time because you forgot to show them something? or perhaps your spouse has additional questions, whatever.

    I had one home improvement guy come out THREE times before I finally told him why he was invited out for repeated visits. I think if I wanted to be mean, I could have gotten him out for a 4th visit. Never heard from him again. :)

    I'm still thinking about whether to invite the rocks in the baggie folks out for a visit :) It's been long enough now, that they will think it is a real request for an estimate.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

18. Sue
    Member Profile

    

    Kevin, while at first glance it sounds like a funny idea to do it, it's probably hurting the wrong people. There is probably some manager that decided that it was a good idea to do their promotion in a way that we all think is harrassing, but the person who gets sent out to do these estimates is probably Average Joe/Jane Worker who had nothing to do with it and just needs to put food on the table. In this economy it just seems a bit cruel to waste their time on a prospect when they might be able to get some real work from someone else. Yes, the promotion (especially the bag o'rocks) is not cool, but this response just seems a bit out-of-proportion to that. Just my two cents.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

19. WSratsinacage
    Member Profile

    I like your idea woofer. Currently, I recycle my extra phone books.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

20. MrJT
    Member Profile

    

    Kevin, We have about 80 of those baggies of flyers/rocks that have been collected while walking the dog. If you would like something to whap'em up side the head with...
    They were saved in hopes that SPU would actually contact us back about the multiple complaints that were filed against the cleaning company. Stupid me. It's the city... WHY would they care ?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

21. LifeISaBeach
    Member Profile

    I live in West Seattle and was looking to get my windows cleaned. A friend recommended 2 Guys and a Bucket to me, after they had their windows done. Not only did I have my windows done, but the gutters were cleaned as well. I have to say, after living here for almost 6 years, I have never seen them look so great! I have had them done before with another company and was less than thrilled about the job they did. Before 2 Guys came out, I didn't even realize there was a slight purple fade to the windows when they're clean!

    I know that the friend that recommended them to me found out about them via a flyer left on their door.

    It would seem in an economy such as this, any form of advertisement could be appreciated in some sense or another - no matter how annoying you might consider it to be. I had a long conversation with the guys after they cleaned, and this is a relatively new company. I find it admirable that they are doing what they can to get their name out there, and working as hard as they need to do. This is not exactly an ideal time to start up a new business, and they seem to be doing well. I have recommended them to a few of my friends, who have also used their services.

    It is easy to sit down and type out a complaint as to how a business is going about things. But, not all of us are so blessed as to get to sit in a cushy office with panoramic views or whatever the case may be. Some people have to really work their ass off to get what they want/need.

    And, after a certain amount of months, if enough calls/jobs are placed with a company after they have canvassed an area, they will re-canvas it. So, your plan to lure them back with ridiculous questions, is just that - ridiculous. Why waste someone's time when they're just trying to make a living...just as I assume you are. I have to agree with Sue on that one. The people coming to your house - ie 2 Guys and a Bucket - are not the people putting the flyers out. So, you're targeting the wrong people.

    Anyway, I was browsing the blogs and came across this after searching the name to see if anyone else has had the pleasure of the service providing by these guys....I had to say something.

    If anyone needs their windows cleaned, I would definitely recommend these guys!

    Oh, also, keep in mind that just because they put a sign on your door, it doesn't mean they are seeking out your car as well. Perhaps they didn't know it was your car and your place?? I am guessing you have street parking, yes? Just throwing that out there...they may not have necessarily known that both the car and house belonged to the same person. And, obviously, if the tactic didn't work, they wouldn't continue to use this approach.

    :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

22. charlabob
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks, LifeISaBeach -- our windows definitely need to be cleaned and we'll look for 2 guys and a bucket. Maybe if we're lucky they'll leave something on our door or window.

    It's good to see someone in the "we're above all this" west side showing a little compassion, humanity, and, most important, a practical idea of how small businesses really start and thrive.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

23. cjboffoli
    Member Profile

    

    I'm all for young, industrious entrepreneurs and wish them the best with their business. But the fact that they're making their way in a tough economy is a totally separate issue than my right to privacy and to not have my property trespassed upon. The car was parked in a private driveway, incidentally.

    Whether it was them or one of their agents they are responsible for breaking the law. My neighbor is an extremely nice guy. But I saw the e-mail response they sent him and let's just say they could have been more professional. He let them know how disappointed he was in their response and they followed up with a kinder, more polite e-mail. So they sound like good guys. They just need to learn how to read signs that read "No trespassing. No solicitors."

    Posted 2 years ago #         

24. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Years ago, when my daughter was 5 years old (she's 28 now), out of necessity, I had to seek employment, instead of being a stay at home mom. At that time someone suggested that perhaps I clean houses (it allowed me to work mornings while daughter was in school/day care). Well, how does one market oneself? I printed up flyers, and my husband , child, and myself went down on Sunset Ave. , and flyered all the houses we could. I got5 jobs out of that initial offering (you pick the streets with the most expensive homes - lol.).

    Weeks later I did the same in another fairly upscale group of houses...got 4 more jobs that way. The rest was word of mouth. I never , ever once received a complaint about leaving the flyers. I also didn't abuse the use of them, and never left them on cars. But it sure did work for me.

    If these guys do good work, they will get a following , and not need to use flyers in the future.

    Now...I wonder if they would do outside windows on a second floor apartment...have lived here for 10 years, windows have never been done..guess I shouldn't wait too much longer for someone else to take care of it, huh...

    Posted 2 years ago #         

25. bluebird
    Member Profile

    Me thinks LifeISaBeach doth praise too much. Seems convenient that they signed up only to search and rave about the exact company being complained about. And even more specifically, about the advertising method being employed by this company.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

26. jseavers
    Member Profile

    My name is Justin Seavers and I am part owner of 2 Guys And a Bucket. I know that there has been a lot of discussion concerning the fliers left on peoples cars and houses. I would like to first apologize for any inconvenience my fliers may have caused it was not our intention to have them distributed in that fashion. I also am not a huge fan for getting fliers on my windshield or to be honest at my home.To tell you a little about me, I moved here from Memphis,Tn 6 months ago because due to the recession I was out of work. I came to Seattle for work and was laid off soon after I arrived. Not one for collecting unemployment, a friend and I started this business together and we started with very little. Since then our business has grown quite substantially and it all started with an idea and a handful of fliers. We do good work and we are affordable. Every client I have done work for is happy. I believe in doing a good job and working hard and treating people with respect and kindness. So again we apologize for offending anyone. So with that said I am open to ideas and suggestions and if anyone would like to contact me you can reach me at 206-940-4591 thank you.Justin Seavers

    Posted 2 years ago #         

27. Aim
    Member Profile

    

    Justin, thank you for posting. I respect what you said, and what you're trying to do. In West Seattle, word of mouth is definitely the way news travels. We're kindof a small town in some ways, still.

    That said, I don't need windows cleaned but if I hear of anyone who does I'd be happy to refer them your way based on your post here. I appreciate the apology for the delivery method, and I think all too many of us understand the position you find yourself in.

    Welcome to the community. Do you also live in WS? If so, please keep getting involved in things here. The business will come.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

28. JoB
    Member Profile

    charlabob..

    it doens't look like you will have to wait for a flier...

    i don't like the fliers much either.. or the people who ignore my dog warning signs and no trespassing signs and come to the door anyway...

    but i will take them any day over the advertising robocalls.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

29. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    Justin thanks for the post!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

30. cjboffoli
    Member Profile

    

    Seems like Justin figured out THE best way to get the word out to the 60,000 or so people who live in West Seattle: Advertise in the West Seattle Blog! :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

31. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    wow..snarkiness at an apology..you can't win for losin', huh...

    Posted 2 years ago #         

32. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    

    Justin:
    Welcome to West Seattle, and thank you for stopping your practice of flyer distribution.
    Word of mouth is far less annoying, and far more effective and enviromental.
    Nonetheless, I think you still owe us one for the violation.
    If you'd truly like to get in our good graces on this issues, you'd get DEX to stop delivering unwanted phone books to our homes.
    There's your penance.
    You shall be forgiven, my son.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

33. JoB
    Member Profile

    JanS..

    I have to agree... considering cj initiated the discussion... and the subsequent advertising... that was a pretty snarky remark.

    Yaardvark...

    if only it was just DEX ... the latest delivery sits on my porch in it's plastic sack awaiting direct transportation to the recycle bin...

    i think we ought to charge them for recylcing the plethora of phone books we didn't ask for and don't want.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

34. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    JoB your DEX desciription founds just like mine. I finally moved it after looking @ it for three weeks!!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

35. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    

    Didn't someone collect a bunch of these phone books last year and use them to blockade the DEX offices?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

36. JoB
    Member Profile

    i wish i had known.. i would have contributed.

    my personal "gift" from DEX has only been there a week.. it will get moved this weekend.

    i would much prefer that they would deliver it directly to the recycling bin.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

37. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    

    Maybe we could take a page from the bicyclists in Critial Mass. Each year, we'll designate a day to clog Alaska Juction with the phone books until our kind political leaders pass better legislation on door-to-door solicitations.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

38. cjboffoli
    Member Profile

    

    JanS: I think you may need to have your snark detectors re-calibrated. I was serious in my post. I think that advertising in the West Seattle Blog is a much more effective use of advertising dollars than putting fliers under the doormats or every house and under the windshield wipers of every car on the peninsula. It was savvy of Jason to hit the WSB Forums. And it looks like he's already picked up some new potential clients.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

39. datamuse
    Member Profile

    

    I take your point, cjboffoli. And yet, I wonder. Advertising on WSB is great...for ME. Yet quite a few of my neighbors are still unaware of the blog.

    As annoying as I find flyers personally, I'm having a hard time thinking of ways to duplicate the coverage they provide, particularly for potential customers who still aren't online (they exist!) or who don't know about WSB.

    In any case, as I said, for me a flyer in my mailbox is inoffensive at worst. I can deal with it at my leisure. It's coming up and knocking on my door that drives me nuts.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

40. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    sorry, Christopher...my radar has been out of whack for a while now - lol..

    datamuse...one of the reasons I love being in a secure apt. bldg., is, no one knocks on the door, unless it's a client or someone else I know.. Now...about those piles of phone books that sit outside for months at a time......

    Posted 2 years ago #         

41. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    

    I think we need to institute a "clean-up" cost that's build in to the permit required to distribute business solicitations door-to-door.

    The window washing guys are bad enough and I won't be using them until them make up for what they did. But what really bugs me is when Jesus leaves pamphlets by my door.

    He can be such a jerk sometimes.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

42. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that - lolol..

    Posted 2 years ago #         

43. windowguy
    Member Profile

    Hello, West Seattle,
    My name is Nick and I am Justin's partner with 2 Guys and a Bucket Window Cleaning Service.I will start with this, we found out about this blog from an existing customer who hired us
    after seeing one of our fliers on their home. He apparently did some research and found us on here and decided to hire us after reading this RANT, so we had to see what was being said. With that in mind, we always like feed back about what we are doing in our business regarding client satisfaction, quality and marketing practices, even if it is negative feedback. We always want to find ways to improve our product(our window cleaning service)and our community relations. As many of you fellow entrepreneurs out there know that a lot of building a business is trial and error.
    I think Justin mentioned that we started this biz with a bucket and a couple squeegees.
    We came up with the idea and started with very little money, about enough for some soap
    and to print 100 or so fliers actually! Originally we knocked on doors by ourselves but
    found that usually if people were home during the day they were usually busy and/or not very receptive to DTD sales. We got a better response from the ones that we tucked in the
    door jam of the houses that no one answered the doors. In fact, just this last week we did
    a few jobs of people that had held onto some our first fliers we did 4 months ago!As far as how we ended with our flier where it was posted no soliciting,it happened by accident! We
    had been parked in an alley, because we working nearby. and it was a group of townhomes so we must not have seen the sign. Also after several emails with the person in question they suggested the WSB!
    Some of you say that method of advertising has a bad response rate, but it has been
    quite the opposite. On average for every 1 new client we get, we have gotten as many as
    10 or more referrals from that client.From every 100 fliers we get 2-3 customers, which
    could be the possibility of having 20-30 new clients.To our existing customers out there
    that may read this. Thank You for your support and all your suggestions regarding marketing, and all the great conversation. We couldn't do this without you. We believe in providing an excellent service at a reasonable cost.
    Thank You,
    Nick Probst
    206-574-8926
    2guysandabucket@gmail.com

    Posted 2 years ago #         

44. JoB
    Member Profile

    He's right.. fliers actually work... especially if the business does a good job and gets referrals..

    2-3% return on cold calls isn't bad.
    20-30% would make most marketers pretty happy.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

45. Kevin
    Member Profile

    Justin/Nick,

    Leaving a flyer is not that bad, but it is a question of HOW it was left. On my street, the flyers had been left out on the street. It looked like someone had just tossed them out the window of a car as they drove by. I think this is what got a lot of folks stirred up.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

46. christopherboffoli
    Member Profile

    Every client producing an average of ten solid referrals for you seems like an unusually high number. I can't remember the last time I recommended a window washer to ten of my friends. You must be doing an exceptional job.

    But what you should also consider is that, at least on my block, there were several neighbors who decided NOT to use your service based on your method of getting the word out. So you should factor in the opportunity cost of lost business in your total rate of ROI.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

47. windowguy
    Member Profile

    First, I'm not sure how they ended up in the street. I know I wouldn't throw them out my car window, that would be just silly! As far as the referral rate I am saying that even if every customer referred 2 people each one of those new people may refer 2 more and so on. not necessarily ten from 1 person. But I do understand that this is an issue and some of our fliers may have been misplaced and that is why I am on here to learn from all of you, because all of you are who I work for. I know it is not possible to make every person happy, but I sure will try! I am also currently working on finding on affordable means to make a door hanger that will stay where it is meant to be. we also are trying to use the most affordable means of getting the word out about our company in order to keep overhead low thus passing the savings on to you.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

48. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    well, I, for one, welcome you to the community, and to these forums :)

    Now...about those second floor apartment windows..outside, I mean - lol....

    Posted 2 years ago #         

49. windowguy
    Member Profile

    Hey everybody just wanted to show the latest news around my business, and in a way give you a more personal introduction via a News interview we did for Kiro7 this week.Just click on the link to check it out. Thank You for looking and if you need your Windows or Gutters cleaned please give me a call.
    Nick
    2 Guys and a Bucket
    206-574-8926
    http://www.kirotv.com/video/20399900/

    Posted 2 years ago #         

50. CGWC
    Member Profile

    Wow! I am so glad I read this rant. I have been tossing the idea around about sending fliers to customers homes via the mail or walking right up and posting them on the door. I will NEVER do both now. These days we are getting bombarded with ads and annoying junk in the mail everyday. I do not want to add to the mess. I told Verizon Superpages not to renew my phone book ad a few days ago. Its really all about internet marketing these days. If someone is looking for a service they can hop online and go to one of many review sites. Putting fliers on cars is very selfish and inconsiderate, oh and definitely not Environmentally Friendly.
    If you think about it, who really wants to come home to a flier on the door? The home is the sacred place.
    So thank you West Seattle Blog, for helping me decide not to go the print shop!
    Oh, BTW I am a local window cleaner. Beacon Hill to be exact. I own and operate Crystal Green Cleaning and am fully insured. Check out my site!
    Eric
    http://www.crystalgreencleaning.com

    Posted 2 years ago #         

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