West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

(77 posts)

purchased goats at Nickelsville

Started 10 months ago by mehud7
Latest reply from JoB

12 Next »

mehud7
Member Profile

Why on earth would anyone purchase goats for Nickelsville? The residents are struggling to take care of themselves and the pets they already have. Plus they depend on others to provide such basics as water. Rented goats? Maybe. Purchased goats? Should not have been allowed.

Posted 10 months ago #
Kevin
Member Profile

The goats are great for keeping vegetation down. And if one or both of the goats are female, then there is some goat milk to be had.
.
Now perhaps someone will consider donating some chickens to them. Eggs are a great source of protein.
.

Posted 10 months ago #
FullTilt
Member Profile

I am a huge supporter of NV, but I am not a biologist. Don't goats need to be both female, and recently mothers to give milk?

Posted 10 months ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

There are at 100+ pairs of hands to cut back the brush, and probably additional volunteers. Purchasing goats now is mind-boggling to me. Couldn't the funds have gone to the very serious (human) water concern? Or if the need is so great that the work can't be done by humans, Rent-a-Ruminants?

Yes, FullTilt, I believe your biology is correct. And even if one magically got this milk, they're eating plants from contaminated soil...yum. These are living creatures and aside from all the care issues we haven't even addressed, let me say again, they are ingesting vegetation grown in soil that the NV residents aren't allowed to disturb with a stake.

I cannot tell from the photos, but can someone confirm if these are pygmy goats?

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

GenHillOne...

I don't think the goats are pygmy.
They are small right now because they are very young.
they are both female and neither has been or is pregnant..
so .. no milk.

Would purchasing goats have been my priority at Nickelsville?

No.. it wouldn't.

but they voted to have goats.

We don't have a vote..

But we do have homes to go home to every night
and showers
and electricity
and a refrigerator

which makes us lucky indeed.

Posted 10 months ago #
tanyar23
Member Profile

Ok...I can not resist...you've got to be "kid"ding me.

Posted 10 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

If you listened to the councilmembers meeting on the front page, you can hear them clearly in the background.

Posted 10 months ago #
JimmyG
Member Profile

Seriously? They bought goats?

Until NV can show concrete programs they are advocating within their community to assist the residents in getting back into real shelter, and to provide skillsets necessary to live independently I can't support them.

Yes I'm lucky to have a roof over my head and yes I'm blessed to have a paycheck coming in on a regular basis. My luck (or whatever/whomever I can thank for my present condition) allows me to give to organizations that are actually doing something about homelessness and hunger.

NV ain't one of those, especially when $ they have goes to purchase goats.

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JimmyG...

I don't know that "they" bought goats.

What i know is that they now have goats
and that having goats at Nickelsville was approved in a vote I happened to witness
and that now that they have goats they are taking care of them

Posted 10 months ago #
Ken
Member Profile

Note: That site is one of many superfund sites in the Duwamish river basin. You will also see hundreds of your fellow citizens picking blackberries growing in the trucked in soil of all those reclaimed sites as well as other non superfund (but still probably contaminated)sites around Seattle.

I was in central WA in the early nintys and late 80's but I remember some mayor of Seattle paying to have blackberries planted to discourage homeless campers on public lands.

Posted 10 months ago #
Lena
Member Profile

To answer an earlier post - goats are like cows when it comes to milk. They must have a baby and then they will give milk for about 9 months. In this time if the baby is kept it will also need to be feed for the first part of that. So you would need at least one male goat to have babies and then you would also end up with at least 1-2 babies a year from each goat and get about nine months of milk that would need to be shared with the baby goats.
I'm thinking these goats are not for breeding and milking?
I haven't been to NV but goats clear a sight pretty quickly and then need to either move on to another site or be feed supplementary feed. Is there a plan for when they have clearly the NV site?

Posted 10 months ago #
WSB
Member Profile

To the point of clearing the site: If you go to the encampment - the council committee meeting the other day was the first time I had been deep into the site since the day in fall 2008 when police were ordered to evict the camp - you will see a long stretch of grass/brush that the encampment is not occupying, stretching east. I don't know if I have a photo (was going to check my iPhone for a closer shot of the goats). Two goats would probably need months to eat it all, if that's even the goal.

Posted 10 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

JoB-
"But we do have homes to go home to every night
and showers
and electricity
and a refrigerator

which makes us lucky indeed."

No, I have all of those because I am a hard working, responsible, careful planning adult. Luck had nothing to do with it.

Posted 10 months ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

wow velo-nut, could you be any more judgemental?? Luck has a lot to do with your lot in life, but you probably won't figure that out until it runs out ...

- you are diagnosed with cancer and lose your job and insurance. Your meds are $1000 a month ... if you want to live, that is;
- you ski into a tree and end up with a head injury that leaves you unable to work. Medical expenses eat up the savings you thought were enough;
- you doze off while driving home one night and drive off the road ... or you hit another car and are sued, on top of all your medical expenses;
- your employer outsources your job off-shore and you lose your job and pension and benefits ..

is there a point in going on ... doubt it. We are all one crisis away from having our lives turned upside down (as much as I hate those stupid Allstate 'mayhem' commercials, they have a point.) Mine happened 35 years ago this past Tuesday when I dove into a river to cool off and at the age of 21 turned myself into a quadriplegic. Coulda been you.

Posted 10 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

So really..why are goats such a big issue? Move on please.

Posted 10 months ago #
chrisma
Member Profile

@velo_nut: so getting hit by an inattentive driver while riding your bike and being rendered disabled and unable to work would be what? bad planning?

Can't happen to you, right?

Posted 10 months ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

VN, I've met Nickelodeons whose life stories sound just like yours -- until a crisis wiped 'em out. They never thought they'd be there and they're embarassed to be there, but very damned glad it's there.

I hope you're very very very young and that there's time for you to develop a heart to accompany your business acumen.

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

gees, velo-nut..yes, it was bad luck. What planet are you on? My story. in the last 6 years...cancer, and subsequent surgery and treatment, 2 hip replacements, multiple surgeries (like, maybe 16?), diagnosed with a rare autoiummune disease that caused me to be in renal failure, on dialysis, and hopefully getting a kidney transplant. I have been self-employed since 1994, did without insurance for many years. LUCKILY, I got cancer that allowed me to get on Medicaid. LUCKILY, I now am in end stage renal disease that will allow me to collect Medicare (until they dismantle it) early. Yes...luck..we all look at things in different ways. We work (lucky to have a job in this economy), yet, you have no idea what could happen tomorrow. Some big rig could hit you on your bike coming over the low bridge from work, cripple you, and voila...one step away from losing your home. You have no idea what the future may bring - and you have to roll with it. Your snarkiness about things is very grating at times. I would like to think that my fellow man (at least West Seattleite) is better than that. Guess not - at least not in all cases.

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

now, back to the OP..why not goats? Are you saying the people at NV aren't responsible enough? If the goats were donated, would that make a difference to you? Or are you saying that things like having goats to help take care of vegetation is only for those with more money and a roof over their heads? Goats eat...everything...tin cans, garbage ( way to save trips to the dump for left over table scraps).They'll eat your shoe if given the chance. And, wow...you grouse about 2 goats living on land that is questionable, yet ignore the plight of the people there? Priorities, priorities, I guess. Jiggers is right...we need to move on. Nothing to see here.

Posted 10 months ago #
KatherineL
Member Profile

Goats are also edible.

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Katherine...I had that thought, too...:)

Posted 10 months ago #
elikapeka
Member Profile

Why is it that we seem to feel free to judge the folks at Nickelsville? They're not taking tax money, they're using land that isn't being used for anything else, and they're making the choices they make with some logic behind it. Just because people are poor doesn't mean we all have the right to feel superior. So they have goats. As long as they're properly cared for, it's nobody else's business, really.

Posted 10 months ago #
S5
Member Profile

The judging goes both ways on these Forums - the poor and the rich. I guess everyone needs to feel superior.

Posted 10 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

Wow... So many hostile replies to my JoB rebuttal which was indeed a FACT.

We are all where we are in life based on decisions we have made. Some of us have sacrificed earlier in life to scrimp, save and invest in order to protect ourselves and families if something medically should happen. Instead of buying that new car, or big TV or eating out you stash that cash or pay into a better insurance plan.

There is NO SUCH THING AS LUCK.

I am a truly compassionate person but I refuse to get into an online war of "who helps who the most" which this forum is starting to turn into.

I'm not against NV, never have been. I just think that instead of buying goats the residents should invest their efforts and extra cash into something that will further their effort to get back on their feet.

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

velo...would you feel differently if the goats were donated?

Oh...and that luck thing? BS...I'm done. You have no idea what may happen in your life in the future. I had a home for twenty years, planned, car, insurance, marriage, middle america...the whole deal. Wiped out in 6 months. At the age of 50.So don't be so smug about your future. I hope that you have truly planned for every little thing, and that you don't have anything catastrophic happen. We can't fear what may or may not be in front of our lives. But we sure do have to roll with things.

Posted 10 months ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

Enough about goats.
There are thirsty people--humanity, neighbors, community members, brethren--and I find myself the ONLY one from WSB taking over for the jamjets in supplying water to NV? I'm hauling hundreds of gallons back and forth--and I'd really like some help. I'd like to remain anonymous in my endeavors, but my demographics would read "single mom, teacher, M.A. student...sans pick-up truck and strong hands".

By the way, to add allure to the job, there is an adorable espresso drive-thru--shaped like a ship--a block away from NV. Great coffee!

Posted 10 months ago #
chrisma
Member Profile

I'll try to bring some water (10-20 gal) this afternoon, angelescrest. Not sure when because I'm full time parent today of a preschooler, so my activities are somewhat dependent on her mood and sleeping. Can you tell me where to go? I know it's been mentioned on the forums before, but I'd appreciate it if you could just tell me.

Thanks!

PS: I may be able to make this a regular delivery for the time that the jamjets are gone. I don't have a large vehicle, but it's something anyway.

I have some blankets to bring down there if they're still in need, as well.

Posted 10 months ago #
mehud7
Member Profile

The thread is about why on earth would someone donate goats to Nickelsville. Thank you JimmyG for understanding tie point. When you are struggling to survive, why would you bring more mouths to feed into your home? Something as frivilous as goats to clear vegetation should not even be on a want list at Nickelsville. Food, water, shelter, blankets, and jobs on a list of NEEDS makes sense.

Posted 10 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

velo_nut, I respect your posts, but when you say "We are where we are based on life's decisions", I find that a full of crock. Yes... the road you take is the one you create, but there are those who have been compramised by health issues(Not related to substance abuse) that you can't phantom. They didn't ask for those health issues that all of a sudden put them out of the work force. If there's no support for people who have nowhere to turn to, then what else are they supposed to do? I myself fall right in that catergory.

Posted 10 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

This thread was about goats not luck. talked with the goat lady and a rescue. Both thought this was a BAD idea. Whether donated or bought.

I guess they have goat coach? Facts:
Need to be dewormed about every 6 weeks who is going to do that? What about the lice(no humans can not get lice from a goat) what are you doing with feces? urine. kids playing dirt being toxic and possibly goat feces. I at least know the cats have litter boxes to use.
Trim hooves. when it gets rainy out side and goats are in mud again they will get hoove raught. Who will treat that. there are NO vets locally who deal with goats, nor will they come down and treat a goat. I do not know if a traveling vet will as they don't work on weekends. What happens if there is an emergency? who has the means to put a goat in a safe vehicle. It is not like you can put a goat in the back of a car or pickup truck.

Once vegitation is gone what then? ie fall and winter. They CAN NOT survive on blackberry bushes alone they need minerals and supplements and hay. who is going to buy that. As it is people there are stuggling enough. Anglecrest you are begging for help to get water to the people and now you have 2 goats to take care too. I am going to assume the goat coach knows all of this.

Both rescues said people think these animals are easy care for they are not they are high maintaince. WHile legally they have food, water and shelter. Not exactly the best place for a goat. Again once they have done their "job" what are you going to do with them. I have no issues if they are killed for meat, but who has a freezer to keep meat? Who is going pay for the butcher?

there is so much that was not thought out and a "goat coach" thought this was a good idea?

This is about the safety of the animals and humans. They do kick you know and can bite.
I have truly done my research and these are fact based and even took time to reread this.:)

I guess the males goats can be aggressive.

Posted 10 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

I agree with hammerhead and lenamegan. I've been around goats and worked on a farm. They'll clear the grass is no time - although I don't quite understand the necessity for that, nor why the task would require goats. Two goats will supply next to nothing in terms of milk or meat, and if they receive anything near proper care (including veterinary care) it would almost certainly be more expensive than just purchasing milk or meat outright. Not making any judgments about people at NV, but goats are almost as bad an idea as chihuahuas.

I don't agree that everyone at NV is completely a victim of circumstances rather than of their own poor choices. Realistically, I'm sure it's a mix of both, and I sympathize either way - to some extent. However, some very unwise choices are being made here that really don't benefit anyone.

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

WHY DO WE THINK THIS IS OUR BUSINESS?

but assuming it is...

The goats do fit into Nickelsvile's long range plan.
if they are going to build structures, they will need to clear land that is infested with blackberry bushes.

I saw how long it took 3 strong men to clear the space to place 3 tents...

yes genhillone, they do have 100 pairs of hands.. give or take.
but they don't have 100 pairs of clippers to cut back those bushes.
I doubt they have two.
Tools are in short supply at Nickelsville.

and those bushes grow back fast.
really fast.
a tent floor is no obstacle to blackberries.

those of you like me who live with blackberries encroaching on both sides appreciate just how much work it is to keep our yards free of them.

they have a really really big yard.

right now i am envying them those goats.
i would love to turn them loose next door.

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

velonut...

you just keep believing that luck has nothing to do with your success.

you weren't lucky to be born where you had access to a good education.
you weren't lucky to be born without inherited diseases.
you weren't lucky to never suffer an accident that completely changed the possibilities in your life.

luck has nothing to do with it.

i will agree that luck won't do you a heck of a lot of good if you aren't willing to do the work to take advantage of opportunities...

but luck has a lot to do with opportunities at every single step of the way along life.

no-one ever expects their luck to run out.
but there isn't a safety net large enough to protect you if it does.

Posted 10 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

JoB

"WHY DO WE THINK THIS IS OUR BUSINESS?"

Because you keep making it our business.

Posted 10 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

Jiggers-

Thanks... That does make sense.

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Velo..
I don't remember bringing up goats ..or pets for that matter.
It has long been my contention that if I chose to allow only those people into my life who made only those choices I approve of, I would be a very lonely woman.

Posted 10 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

This is our business they are asking for water for the humans and the animals that are there. So it is our business. If we can NOT provide enough water or find people to get the water there that means the animals and humans don't get the water. Right?
Who are they going to call if there is an issue with the goats medically?
Again this is about goats that did not need to be purchased or donated. Maybe the people at NV need to think about the things they really need. I have plenty of yard tools to donate to cut the blackberry bushes back and you could burn them. Plus you don't need a 100 pairs of clippers.

For the 1st time I agree with Velo_nut. I am making it my business because of the animals.

Angelcrest again I am surprised you aren't protesting a little bit more about having to supply water to animals that did NOT need to be there.

Posted 10 months ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

Enough about the friggin goats. Water is needed, and water we shall supply. Would you like to help out, HH? I remember you volunteered your driveway and water supply to a poster who wanted to wash his car...heck, same H20!!!

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

angelescrest...thank you for being proactive intstead of sitting back and complaining/judging about how things should be run your way instead of the way NV decides their way. rm chair quarterbacking at it's best. If I had a vehicle, I'd definitely be helping you out :)

Posted 10 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

Anglecrest I don't make it public as to what I have done for NV. But I will make is make it public about the animals. um yes anglecrest I did and I have hired 2 ppl who ACTUALLY want to get the hell out of there, not the ones who have been there since day one. I help the ones that work with me and that is all that needs to be known.

Again I am sticking with the goat thread on this one. Goats are TOO living breathing things, if they weren't there I wouldn't have to worry about them. I would rather worry about the goats. That is were my heart is, your heart is, yours is with the humans, to different worlds.

Again I stated FACTS about the long term care of these goats. That is where it should remain.

Posted 10 months ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

I suppose if I'm/we're supplying water to NV, it's to ALL inhabitants, huh?

Have I really gotten sucked into this? It's a gorgeous evening, amazing moon--peace, love, goodnight.

Posted 10 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

yep you sucked yourself in this keeping asking for help to deliver water down there, again why supply animals when we DON"T NEED too?

Have a good nights sleep:)

Posted 10 months ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

As long as the community is being asked to help, it is the community's business. *can't believe I'm agreeing with velo_nut on something - not everything, but something* Saying "enough," "move on," etc. is truly condescending and will not alleviate concerns. It's a cheap way to try to end a discussion and as a matter of fact, fuels my fire. Re: the original thread on goats. All I want to see are more responsible choices/rules when it comes to animals at NV. And lest you think I'm "picking on" NV, I think there ought to be better rules/laws in general, so no one who knows me will be surprised.

Posted 10 months ago #
tanyar23
Member Profile

There was an old lady who swallowed a fly...
I've been following this thread, and do wonder about whose business it is for the goats. And then wondered whose business it is for any sort of animal neglect. I have read other threads about the plight of animals at NV. So, I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about the welfare of these animals.
I think it's also reasonable to be concerned about the stability of a living environment for people and animals who are in this temporary housing. I could be wrong about this and I am unsure if NV will be come a permanent housing situation, which then makes me wonder whose business it would be if they do not have running water. I could be wrong about this, but I do believe that housing without running water is unsafe and possibly illegal and may be a public health threat.
So my question is...are these tent cities a permanent fixture of our city? If they are, does the city have an obligation to these? What kind of precedent does this set?
I have been homeless in my life and know that it absolutely sucks. However, I don't know that these places are the solution for this problem. However, I have to confess that I don't honestly know of any other great solutions either.

Posted 10 months ago #
Cait
Member Profile

HH - I couldn't agree more. The double standards here are so astounding. Or, should I say, I WISH I were astounded by them.

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Geez Louise...
Stop already.

Do you really think harassing people who are trying to supply water and assistance to a community that exists is the way to right the wrongs that you see in that community?

give me a break.

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

here's a thought. Those that have the knowledge about goats....have you thought about talking to the powers that be at NV about it, instead of grousing about it here? Again..just a thought...maybe some education would help them out, don't you think? I mean..if you're involved in a quiet way there already, what could it hurt?

Posted 10 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

JanS why yes and they did NOT listen to me. Plus since I don't live there my input does NOT mean a thing. I don't get to vote on their "issues" and concerns. They want no outside opinions especially mine.

Education isn't that what the goat coach is supposed to do? Again this was not a well thought out issue with the goats.

Posted 10 months ago #
JimmyG
Member Profile

I think based on what HH has posted on numerous threads about the animal issues at NV that she has been trying to work with them, but her experience and knowledge has been disregarded.

Again, I'm waiting to hear in any news report, any thread on WSB, or from any of my neighbors what programs NV has in place to get the residents on their feet again and to provide the necessary skills to reintegrate. They've been around long enough that some of their prioritizing should be going to programs to help them move on from homelessness.

Posted 10 months ago #
HunterG
Member Profile

Here here, Jimmy. NV should not be a permanent solution.

Posted 10 months ago #