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(76 posts)

Public Schools... can't get worse, can it?

  • Started 8 months ago by kootchman
  • Latest reply from kootchman

  1. kootchman
    Member Profile

    As our TEA is out violating a court order... of course. I watched a Stoessel report on public schools. Dismal. But...this being a blue kinda city... critique of unionized government workers is generally ignored. JoB of course never wants parental choice or vouchers..thinks schools need more money. Despite the fact that the USA spends more on public schools than any country (major economy) in the world..most who are kicking our butts.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu-spending-per-primary-school-student

    It's tough to sell ever higher taxes and fees to support higher ed..when the kids can't do the work when they get there.

    We need, must have, cannot do without a higher achieving young population. Without it.. our standard of living will continue in free fall. Sooo I refer you to a bona fide, credentialed liberal.... and PS 149. No excuses now for charter schools skimming off the choice kids.. this is a lottery based student body.

    Record low SAT scores... worst in our recent history. I doubt anyone will acutaLLY READ the book... but maybe the "snippets" will entice some. There is a reason unions are gone from the private sector.. only being propped up vote hungry politicians keeps them breathing. Wonder when kids and education will become the agenda items?

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/opinion/bennett-education/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  2. kootchman
    Member Profile

    In another illustrative case study, Brill compares Harlem Success I, a charter school, with P.S. 149, a traditional public school. Both schools happen to share the same building in New York City, with very similar students, parents, socioeconomic conditions and environments. But Harlem Success blows P.S. 149 out of the water. Eighty-six percent of its students were proficient in English in 2010, compared with 29% of P.S. 149's.

    See what happens when parents have choice?

    Brill's work represents a real tug-of-war inside the Democratic Party, between the teachers' unions and modern reformers, for control of the nation's education machine. The old guard of the Democratic Party, the AFT and NEA, believe that the blame for stagnant and falling test scores falls on anyone but them.

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  3. Bostonman
    Member Profile

    I have 3 kids, if I could send them to private school I would in a second. I am a product of public school and state universities and I turned out ok, make a good living and I am well adjusted member of society but my brother who went to a private school in Boston for 12 years received a full scholarship for his undergrad, went to a very nice college in Boston and has 2 Masters degrees. While I may make more money than him he is far more intelligent than me and has far better study habits.

    Public schools from what I have seen with 3 kids are an utter failure and if you aren't lucky enough to live in a school with good scores you are even worse off. The public schools are a disaster from what I can tell as a parent.

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  4. kootchman
    Member Profile

    We must demand at a minimum vouchers. As long as out politicians are committed to votes and union endorsements we are going to have more of the same. We had no choice after surveying the Seattle PS system. It cost dearly, took away many financial options we could have exploited.

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  5. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    so now you want government money (vouchers) to educate your kids? interesting.

    i'm wondering what a voucher would be worth to you. it costs $7,000 per year to educate a student in king county. that's the lowest investment in the state, from the county that sends the most money to olympia.

    what you pay into the system is based on the value of your property, right? so does your voucher system give folks in broadmoor a big, juicy voucher, while those who rent in the central district get nothing?

    or would you redistribute that wealth?

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  6. kootchman
    Member Profile

    no redblack..since we have a state constitutional mandate to educate k-12 education, and we just posted the lowest SAT scores since the founding of the Department of Education..it's time to admit we are failing our kids. That "redistributed" wealth is MY tax money.. I want it to go to schools that actually perform. I want ALL those poor kids in the central district to be able to walk away from those schools... take those 7K away from the SPS and hand it to a school that will give them a halfway decent education. charter, private, I don't care. We spend more on education than any major industrial country in the world... and we get the worst results. I already did my job dude.. I supported two school systems, SPS and private... I had the options and means to do it. Sadly, we don;t give the Central district parents the same. It's SPS or nothing... that's why our unions bargain for two year tenure. That;s why the best teachers can't get merit pay, that's why they fight to go from 6 hours 40 minutes to 6 hours 20 minutes..or violate back to work orders from judges, or flaunt state law and go on strike... It's not an increase, not a wealth redistribution... it's taking money away from an underperforming monopoly. Charter schools are fine with me...they are public. BTY Broadmoor and SPS get the same state stipend. Those 200 kids that ride the Ferry to Vashon every morning to flee SPS? Vashon gets the 7 grand... taken from SPS. A voucher goes to the school system the kid attends... too hard to figure out? Same 7K.. just going to a place that gets results. The tuition is attached to the kid....where he/she goes.that is where the tuition goes. If there was no Toyota or Honda..we'd still be driving Chrysler "K" cars...reform comes from external pressure.

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  7. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Tell ya what will do redblack.... take the challenge... you watch this video... the title is obnoxious.... granted. Network ratings and all that. Watch what the other 30 or so countries due... the ones that will hand or kiddies their asses in the global market. Then you tell me why we tolerate it? Schools are supposed to educate kids.. not become a Democratic Party campaign war chest. You watch it.. I'll go down and pick some school supplies.. and you can deliver it to any public school of your choice... then you tell me... this is acceptable? I support private unionization because I know the owners are not monopolies... education is.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9069323583494421392

    Posted 8 months ago #         
  8. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    hold on there, perfesser.

    while the u.s. spends more total dollars on education than any other country on earth, what is our education spending as a percentage of GDP when compared to other industrialized countries?

    go ahead. i'll wait. the answer is an important one.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  9. kootchman
    Member Profile

    What the hell difference does that make? The spending PER PUPIL is the highest... here is one....

    http://www.dailyplunge.com/tag/per-pupil-spending-by-country/

    Geez... and IF you watched the video... gasp..what you will find amazingly ... is there is no hard correlation to spending and achievement... see the Charter Schools in Oakland and Harlem.... getting twice the results for half the money...Belgium isn't even on the list... yet .. an average HS in Belgium on the ISI test .. scored and average 78... and a US News and World Top Ten Public HS... averaged... 47. Random verses handpicked and they cleaned our clock...

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student

    or that terribly hard occupation

    weeks of classes

    Russia 44
    India 42
    Australia 40
    Brazil 40
    Germany 39

    USA? 36

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  10. kootchman
    Member Profile

    And from The Economist

    'American children also have one of the shortest school days, six-and-a-half hours, adding up to 32 hours a week. By contrast, the school week is 37 hours in Luxembourg, 44 in Belgium, 53 in Denmark and 60 in Sweden.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  11. kootchman
    Member Profile

    And if you want to compare income of teachers.... adjusted for per capita income... Yes indeed... American teachers are the best paid in the industrial world... so in summary... they work the least, get paid the most, and have the worst outcomes. Watch the video dude

    The average Teacher in the USA 4K per month (adjusted)
    The average Teacher in Poland 1,013 per month (adjusted)

    And Poland kicks the snot out of the USA in the ISI....

    source http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  12. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    spending as a percentage of GDP makes a huge difference, because things are more expensive here. brand new textbooks every year, paying for privatized testing companies, privatized food service, the cost of teachers' health care... those things are added up before your kid even sits down in his class room.

    also, how many students do those smaller countries educate? we're a big country with a high literacy rate and high standards of living. of course we spend a lot on education.

    again, your argument is, "damned thing's broken. throw it away!" you want to lower someone's standard of living to fix the problem?

    no. take the profit motive out of public schools and spend that money on teachers, students, and classrooms. period. NCLB and teach-to-the-corporate-test are what is killing our education system and sucking the cash out of it.

    by the way, your vaunted private schools are only 5.5% of the country's education system. they couldn't handle the added work load.

    and no, i'm not taking your "challenge." we're having a discussion here, and i can argue my position without someone else's help. you want to cite that video as your source, go right ahead.

    looking at your last cite, though, canadian teachers only work 31 hours per week. in finland, teachers work slightly less than americans. what's your point?

    seems to me that all nations have varying degrees of difficulty in educating their kids.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  13. redblack

    well stated.

    Kootch...

    the challenges facing our public educational system are far more complex than your stats indicate...
    and you know it.

    you neglect to mention the subsidies many of those private schools you put up as models enjoy...
    or the fact that their test scores benefit from the fact that they can refuse admission to any student who has "special needs" including learning difficulties...
    or that the teachers employed there often do not have any benefits at all...

    which means that the public pays the cost of their catastrophic health care and retirement.

    You fail to mention that public schools don't have the flexibility of private schools to spend available dollars on current needs...
    funding based on school bonds tied to capital improvements has fueled the largest expense in our public education system...
    servicing the debt incurred by capital improvements.

    As we speak, there are sports facilities being built on the lot where a junior high was recently torn down...
    at the same time that textbooks are not being ordered because of a lack of available funds...
    and people like you are clamoring to cut the teacher's salaries and benefits.

    Perhaps what needs to change is that "local control" part of public school funding that gives altogether too much control of our educational budget to special interests who have no interest in educating our children?

    because bottom line
    educating every kid is the purpose of public education

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  14. Now help me understand this...

    In the "We're Heading Backwards" thread, Mr. K... you said "bty redblack...not to burst your bubble... but 60Kin Seattle? You can't raise a 2 child family on 60K. No way."

    So what are you saying? Teachers don't deserve to make enough to have children and families? I don't know any elementary school teachers that make over $42K and most I know make in the $30K range, which is way too low to pay off student loans and live.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  15. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I didn't say "privatize" the whole system. Although, that could happen in a heartbeat. Didn't watch the video did ya? Go Charter schools... were there is NO upper limit to what a good teacher could make. It's the unions that cap merit pay... refuse it consider it. The reason? Because there would be a measurable matrix and they don't want that!

    DID YOU see in any post where I suggested we LOWER anyones standard of iiving or cut salaries? JoB ..Charter schools teach them all..they ARE public schools.... you too did not see the video. I said..we have the highest pay, works the shortest hours, and get the worst results.... I didn't say cut pay anywhere.

    You proved my point though... if 95% of the kids are going to public schools and the SAT are the lowest in history.... a monopoly isn't working. Is it?

    It can get worse... and it will. As long as we have no structural reforms. Europe is laughing their asses off... they have no fear from us. BTY every Catholic school in this city has a pension plan, health care plan. They do pay SS..just like you do..is that your definition of a public paid retirement? . I don't where you come up with this stuff. Why you can even watch a "special needs" Charter school... and their outcomes. IF PS are so great why are there lines around the block in the NYC and Oakland lottery for Charter school admissions? Why so many parents so desperate to get their kids OUT? Lottery does not mean selective ..it means random drawing. You have two models... both public, side by side, in the same building, with identical demographics ... and the Charter school (with merit pay) kicks the PS ass and ...for LESS money. Now there is as much a control experiment as you can get.

    Germany kicks our ass... Japan does... the 3rd and 4th largest economies...as does France, Italy, Sweden..hell even Poland cleans our clock I said.. I want better results from the money we spend... because we ain't cheap...the WEA song doesn't fly in the face of actuarial evidence. When you unshackle good teachers..you get great results. See the teachers who work in Charter schools .. see what they say... it's a better work environment. You would rather the trend line of failure at worst, and mediocrity at best survives and propagates. It's the kids that live with the results... sadly. 23% per cent of our graduates are literate by world standards.... and you are ok with that?

    It isn't the taxpayer... it's the system.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  16. Ah, money, money, money the endless argument.
    If the education were relevant, interesting with measurable results you would see a different result.
    There are good reasons for the results in many other countries that make a real effort to create a good product.....

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  17. @RB "by the way, your vaunted private schools are only 5.5% of the country's education system. they couldn't handle the added work load."

    Looks like it's closer to 10% and growing....
    http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=65

    @TD "I don't know any elementary school teachers that make over $42K and most I know make in the $30K range, which is way too low to pay off student loans and live."

    You must know teachers in the their 20's. Once they stick around awhile, it can get pretty lucrative - especially for 10/12ths of the year work.

    Also, I've been hearing that teachers are underpaid since the early 80's. Here's a suggestion - if you know a particular profession is underpaid DON'T GO INTO IT AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT!

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  18. Genesee Hill
    Member Profile

    Genesee Hill

    Can you imagine if the k-man and smitty were your teachers in any grade? ROFL.

    ... and...furthermore...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  19. kootchman
    Member Profile

    It helps to argue your position with the most information.. or so I would think. We are RB, NOT a highly literate people. Not by the industrial world standards. 60% of the masters degrees in engineering, math, sciences, are conferred upon foreign students? At the Phd level, it gets worse. Isn't it a bit vexing that we are being asked as taxpayers to fund more and more to UW, WSU.. so they can educate the foreign work force of tomorrow? Now that is some great visionary work on your part RB. Not only will we give away the low skill manufacturing trades...we will send the intellectual competitiveness offshore too. I hope your urban scrounge skills are up to the task... you will need them. All it takes is a recognition... we have a problem, and we have examples of successes... ones that can be duplicated. Actual progress...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  20. kootchman
    Member Profile

    GH... all I would have to do is fake it for two years.... and then coast to an unassailable retirement courtesy of tenure. Heck that should be easy enough. Sadly though, I came through a tougher winnowing process... stay competitive, stay productive, and achieve or seek other employment.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  21. "Can you imagine if the k-man and smitty were your teachers in any grade? ROFL."

    You more than likely wouldn't be on this board with all the other liberal sheeple. You might be out making money, paying taxes and not bitching about the job creators.

    It's amazing how many conservatives there actually are after 17 years (13 in your case?) of liberal indoctrination......

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  22. Comparisons to Europe are useless - they have a completely different educational system that 'tracks' kids and essentially doesn't make the same attempt to educate everyone.

    Plus their much derided social welfare system provides a better chance for every student. Study after study has shown that healthy kids with food in their bellies and parents with time to focus on their kids' education is perhaps THE primary factor in how kids learn. Imagine trying to learn algebra with an untreated toothache.

    So kootch, once you're willing to pay into a system that provides basic health benefits to kids, then you can complain if student performance doesn't improve.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  23. kootchman
    Member Profile

    JoB

    "because bottom line
    educating every kid is the purpose of public education"

    But bottom line is ... they aren't. See the Belgian teacher... who speaks so profoundly...about American educating "every kid"... she laughs at how outrageous the presumption is. See the SC Governer and his wife... and their kids. Then listen to the State Education Director justify the SC position of being last in the nation in SAT scores... your jaw will drop with shock.. talk about "teacher speak"..... watch the five year odyssey to get a convicted child molester terminated from the NYC school system... or the four buildings called "rubber rooms" where teachers deemed to be a threat to students are warehoused at FULL pay because they cannot be permitted in the classroom... HUNDREDS of them. Good grief... ignorance should not be bliss... Give ya the same challenge I gave RB.... watch the video... then we can hit OfficeMax and make a school supplies donation... some coloring books and reading material to N'Ville kids too...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  24. kootchman
    Member Profile

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9069323583494421392

    start at 7:30in the tape..... nuff said'?

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  25. kootchman
    Member Profile

    And worse.... because of the depth and death grip of public schools.... the OUTRAGE of residency inspectors, trampling over civil rights, unreasonable search.... to protect teacher unions... this is the horror of hooror...and you don't think liberalism is the kissing cousin of fascism? 15:18 second into the tape. Funny thing is... 57% of American parents rate the PS systems as good.... and only 23 % of their kids are proficient in literacy...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  26. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    you know, i think i'm going to become a teacher. then i'll teach your kids to be politically correct and that having three mommies and a horse for parents is okay. i'll go home to my lavish palace every night and smoke hash. after having careless sex with strangers, i'll use my taxpayer-funded cadillac health care plan for an abortion. and i won't show up for work for a month afterward, because my job is secured by my strong-arm union-enforced tenure.

    oh, wait. i don't have a uterus. scratch that.

    you know, kootch, the teacher's union doesn't write the curriculum in any school district in this country.

    the private testing companies do.

    worried about public school education and america's rank in global education? get rid of the standardized tests.

    like i've insinuated in other threads, republicans can either try to work in good faith to fix the problem in a reasonable manner, or they can talk a long walk off a short pier. when you start negotiations from the standpoint of tearing down the entire system and slashing people's wages and benefits the other side gets entrenched and angry.

    the union isn't even the damned issue here, kootch. the curriculum is. but i suspect you find it easier to bash liberals than to go up against the testing corporations.

    pretty cowardly, in my opinion.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  27. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    hey, by the way...

    should education be a business?

    if it is, i'd like to remove the churches' tax-exempt status.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  28. kootchman
    Member Profile

    redblack..go for that degree..you could use it. . Curriculum is determined by school boards. BUT if you watched the video..what you will see... how refreshing.. good teachers at Charter schools can select their own texts..and design their own curriculum. How about that? The are given objectives, year end expectations, and then meet them. They get merit pay! The highest paid teachers in Oakland? Charter school teachers! Not increases for sitting on their asses for years. Again.. watch the video..listen to your great teachers unions spout drivel. Watch them threaten to strike unless they get a 6 hour, 40 minute work day and compare themselves to the private sector. "Not a busines one minute, a business the next"... depends. If it isn't a business... they why do they even have unions? All the rest of the world takes standardized tests. That which is not counted..doesn't count. Unions HATE standards because they can't meet them and are held accountable. Note again...I said I support increased pay for teachers... for merit. If unions are not the problem... then why do PUBLIC charter schools do better? Watch the video dude... watch the video. Even you have to pass "wrench/bond" standards after laying up those bricks. SATs count dude.. all the other school systems in the world seem to be fine with being measured. Public educations is a failure..why not admit it, and get to fixing it? It seems private education IS growing... because public education is failing. Bury your head in shame dude...you would rather doom generations of kids to dismal futures than fix it and scrutinize the role of unions in preserving mediocrity.... like the clip says.. "American don't know what they don't know... bingo!

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  29. kootchman
    Member Profile

    NYC.. 2 teacher dismissals out of 80,000 educators in one year. Even McDonalds fires more per year for incompetency. Six years to dismiss a teacher for propositioning a 15 year old girl for oral, anal, sex...on the school computer system... and he admitted it.. the e-mails were there for all to see... six years. I never suspected you would support such an agenda...but by your post..I suppose you would. You better believe public education is a multi-billion dollar business. Church tax exemption revoked in exchange for a non-unionized civil service? You don't like parochial schools because the HS's routinely kick PS butts in SATs... with a non-union work force.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  30. kootchman...

    i didn't have to watch a video kootch.
    i assisted a friend who helped start a charter school a decade ago...
    i know what charter schools are...

    and i also know that unless the provide a service for the local school district.. in this case providing educational access for those kids labeled "special needs" they do drain off resources from the local school district...

    this one provided an alternative learning environment for ADD and autistic kids.

    do you really think a video you found is the be all end all of the discussion kootch?

    would it amaze you to know that some of us have looked far deeper into this subject with a more objective eye than that of one video that was produced to create only one conclusion?

    your rants against teachers are emblematic of your assessment of the issues facing our public the school system.

    your end goal.. busting unions and public subsidization of private religious school systems.

    If you want to compare apples to apples kootch...
    why don't you look at the Texas school system where the unbridled charter school systems have had time to accrue some actual stats on their effect on public education.

    The truth is that you aren't intereted in educating all children. Your choice of quote from the Belgian school teacher illustrates that. You don't think all children should be educated.

    you think that public money should be spent to subsidize the school systems of a selected few.

    And btw Kootch.. that 60% figure you threw out for foreign students in our universities is fairly recent... and coincides with the economic downturn that has pushed the debt load of most graduates beyond serviceability.

    You did realize that the political agenda you promote would further reduce the number of American students in our advanced educational systems by eliminating student grants and restricting student loans.. didn't you?

    Your end goal is transparent.
    Please stop trying to sell an illusion.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  31. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Nope... you presume fact not in evidence. The public school system is failing. Argue that? By every measure and standard recognized as legitimate. Charter schools are public schools. Many, increase resources because they accomplish the education mission at a lower cost. Yes, it would amaze me. Other than throwing more money at a system that in inflation adjusted dollars, has doubled its funding, Seattle being particularly generous, there will be no public action until the PS system gets the message, it's intolerable. I rest on the issue. In the end the voters will decide, as they always do. You can remain secure in defending the status quo. But then again, you have no current children in school who are at risk, I presume. I already educate all the children...as all taxpayers do. I think the results speak for themselves.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  32. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Yea... this is what it is like to be a student in todays HS..... bullying from teachers. What a petty man.... Someone should just knock him on his wizened, old, bitter ass.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/29/vacaville-students-lost-2_n_987930.html?ncid=webmail8

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  33. kootch...

    look at Texas..

    it's not a pretty picture

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  34. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Well, I am not a taxpayer of Texas. What should I look at? And the purpose of what I am looking for? Are you reciprocating and looking at the video?

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  35. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I "suspect" that their will be a statistically significant correlation by number of hispanics within the general population. I could find out by delving into the PEW Hispanic Center data base.. they may even break it down by county. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Central American and Mexican populations underperform at every education level. There are some very dismal statts contained therein.. Cubans (FL) and second generation Puerto Ricans (NY) break the "latino" curve though and while not faring as well as Asians and Whites, do better then latino populations as a whole. What data do you wish me to glean?

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  36. kootchman
    Member Profile

    • Regional dispersion. One-third of Mexicans (36%) live in California,
    and one-in-four (25%) live in Texas

    Pew Hispanic Center

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  37. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    see, kootch, the problem with corporate standardized tests is that profit is the motive for passing students. not merit.

    it's the free market economy at work.

    again, teachers' unions don't write the curriculum. they simply guarantee that teachers make good money and benefits for their efforts.

    typical right wing blather, though, to find a few examples of bad behavior, then throw the baby out with the bathwater. less resistance that way, huh?

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  38. kootchman
    Member Profile

    First after the "fever" of corporate testing subsides... SAT, ACT etc.. have predictive values for colleges. Are you kidding? A "few" examples? Where have you been hiding dude.. we rate at the BOTTOM of the industrialized world... 25th in the world... that is a "few" to you? NO improvement in over 30 years... the entire country.. the lowest SAT scores in 40 years... those are not a few stats.. that is called a persistant trend. Nothing in the free economy would tolerate sub par earnings, declining market share, for over a year let alone four decades. BTY.... the most successful curriculums ARE written by teachers...teachers are freed to find the methods and instruction techniques that best fit their class..they are treated as professionals. The better the outcome..the higher the pay... MERIT pay...it stimulates the creative teachers.. in Charter Schools. SAT doesn't give a hoot if the students pass or fail....if they did what would justify falling test scores?. Your logic is sooo not there dude. You make no sense. The customers for ACT and SAT are the colleges that use them to evaluate the probability of success... if they did not offer accurate predictive values...the colleges would not use them. Watch the video dude... watch the video. It won't hurt one little bit to go a wee bit out of the old rigid leftwing doctrinaire... hell I watch your favorite pinheads from time to time... Keith Obermann and Lawrence O'Donnell.. Heck ... I can even dig up a Charlie Rose show for ya... if, as you say, passing students is "for profit" who exactly is "profiting"? ... every Seattle PS classroom represents a $250,000 check to the school district from the taxpayer.... where does it all go? I can tell ya. Put it to the the test... attach 7800 to every student... they can spend it at the school of their choice... if PS educations is sooooo good, they should retain their students right? You know and I know those kids and parents will look like scurrying rats getting off a sinking ship. Education is not immune to atrophy... it too needs innovation.... I never see teachers striking for that... nope.. just more money, smaller classes (more union dues) less class time, better benefits... and NO accountability for results.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  39. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    yeah, and a corporation trying to teach all kids - with all of their various problems and proclivities - the same things in the same way and expecting them to answer each question the same way or face having his or her education wrecked by some minimum-wage flunkie test scorer is a reflexive education system.

    then some bureaucratic auditor says, "well, crap! looky here! this school and its teachers can't teach to our test! there must be something wrong with this school!" and bingo! funding gets threatened. teachers get insulted and have their pay cut.

    the ironic thing is, the reason you hate public schools and their low performance compared to private and charter schools is because someone started making a profit from education and testing.

    "who's profiting?" you ask.

    i'm surprised you don't know this, since you have kids.

    WASL was replaced with the measurement of student progress (MSP) for grades 3-8, and the high school proficiency exam (HSPE). then there's the washington alternate assessment system (WAAS) for special needs students.

    the scoring contractor is data recognition corporation. apparently those tests are written by bright education testing services, inc. but the state is moving to online testing this spring, to be administered by computerized assessments & learning.

    some funny and tragic reading regarding testing, NCLB, and teach-to-the-test, written by a teacher and a test scorer:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/07/953476/-Notice-to-All-Banker-Types-from-a-Teacher

    Teacher Merit Pay: Why Test Scores Shouldn't Dictate Salaries

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  40. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Yes... well redblack... if you will recall... the WASL was designed by the state of WA... ooops! Another darn fact.

    And I quote:

    (http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_Frequently_about/?page=2)

    5. Who writes the WASL test questions?

    Washington educators helped build the WASL and continue to refine it. They review every question for content quality and its relation to the state’s learning standards.

    Did ya read that redblack?

    That is until the kiddies all flunked it... then they trashed it. HSPE is a very very dumbed own version of WASL..They did that too to SAT it was called "repegging"...

    I will read your links dude... knowing they are written by and for teachers and teachers unions.... sigh. The entire world takes the IEA.... except the USA... we tried it once...five states passed... you guessed it... the NEA said no more! There is of course the PISA... Program for International Student Assessment.. now why don't we take that as currently 39 countries do? NEA says no way no how... so I have to dig in the old wallet to have it privately administered. The profit is in these new creations of having to sculpt tests to meet the lowered expectations of literacy in this country... we are too dumb to take PISA is the short and sweet of it. So we have to create "self esteem affirming tests" that educators and teachers can say yahoo... we are doing great. Why not just take PISA? We did... my critters aren't going to find the source/origin of time..or the grand unifying theory of quantum mechanics.. but they will do just fine. I can safely and confidently say that they have nothing to fear from Singapore, Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium, Japan... in fact, may even find an economic future there if need be,

    Now Messsr redblack... I will read your links... though I have some trepidation I am going to be NEA'd.... I at least offer a more entertaining video... but read them I will. Will you watch "Stupid in America".... there is some value in listening to the actual teachers who get merit pay....and how they do so. ? Fair exchange? You are intractable enough... it won;t change you that much.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  41. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I read all but the link to Teacher Merit Pay... the link won;t connect.

    The others relate to corporations who assess and train.... I saw no underlying message, I take proficiency exams all the time, You bet I use study guides and aids. Testing my friend is part of the great big world. We all do it, I even had to use a study guide and aids to get Coast Guard Master certified... there wasn't enough information in The Old Man and The Sea.. used a private company.

    Of more importance...did ya note the help wanted? DRC has job openings... see all those BS and higher for system analysts, programmers, ...? Cause the unemployment rate for those cats is less than 4.8 per cent.... that my friend says it all. Even "just" a HS education is less than 9.2 per cent... the rest, the huge bulge in all this suffering? The kids who walked away from the PS system and judged it crap.

    The teacher to bank... well one thing I can assure you he/she knows nothing about banking. One glaring omission of course being, she was not not making assessments relative to others performance, i,e the deposits on hand... that was not relative to the deposits on hand of other depositors. So, there is no way to compare the performance of a bank relative to the status of other banks or even if such a depositor base exists. I grant there are select and special teaching skills. But, I also know there are as many parents out there with as good or better educations. Parents who have the acuity to know a good education from a bad one, This in not the same populace of 40 years ago where a BA or MA was a rare thing and parents bought the BS...line from a "more intelligent" class... these are trade unions... and most professionals would rather contract herpes than belong to one.

    Just tell me this, simply. The facts are, we pay more, have one of the most lenient work schedules, and grant tenure before a teacher can even demonstrate competency. These are facts. So why do we rate in the bottom quartile in the industrialized world in student achievement? Simple question ... why can't Johnny read? Fritz can, Gerhardt can, Marie' can, Sebastiano can, and their teachers have less resources, teach longer hours and have larger classes?

    As soon as I can get the link up... I will read why merit pay is not acceptable only to the teaching industry... or any union work force. God Bless America dude... I LOVE merit pay... the more incentive the harder I work.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  42. kootchman
    Member Profile

    redblack... re post the line on merit pay... it's a dead one.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  43. LOL kootch...

    did you just blame the failure of the Texas school system on people of South American descent?

    it has nothing to do with taking money from the public schools those students attend and moving it to charter and private schools?

    get a grip...

    as for that two year "fake it" stuff... so you could slide till retirement?

    i'd like to see you last two days in a public school classroom.

    fake it indeed.

    I don't know what you're drinking these days kootch...
    but whatever it is
    maybe you should cut back.

    i am told that even caffeine can rattle the brain.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  44. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-farley/teacher-merit-pay_b_800119.html

    "intractable?" heh. says the pot to the kettle.

    from your link:

    It doesn’t matter what the average score on the test is or whether some drivers scored above or below you. What matters is whether you can show you have the driving skills and knowledge of traffic laws to “meet the standard” and get a license.

    that right there is why teaching to standardized corporate tests won't allow america to compete.

    but there is no more WASL, and teachers no longer write or score the tests.

    nor did the teachers' unions push for NCLB or the washington ERL. they don't like teaching to the test. and not because it's more work. because it gets poor results.

    so why can't johnny read? (you forgot to mention veejay, samir, tran, and hideo, btw.) my opinion is that he's self-absorbed, self-entitled, distracted, and spoiled due to the culture he lives in. he's more interested in bling than knowledge of the universe. in a consumer-driven society, his parents are willing to buy him whatever he needs to compete instead of making sure that he comprehends.

    another possibility is that his family is so poor that he has to work after school. or he's distracted by hunger. or he's a part-time criminal. maybe he sells ecstasy to suburban johnny.

    if we're going to fix it, we need to raise per capita spending on education instead of cutting teachers' pay, driving good people out of education, and increasing class sizes. we need to improve the funding stream, too, so that it's not solely carried by property taxes.

    we need to recognize that one size does not fit all. using rigid standards isn't the answer. teachers need the flexibility and resources to be able to recognize individual strengths and weaknesses in their students, and they need to change strategies accordingly.

    so here are my ideas: by law, states have to meet standards set by NCLB. fine. but get rid of these damned testing companies - and with them, their fees for doing us the "favor" of evaluating our students. charge the school boards, the PTA, individual parents, and teachers with writing those tests, and codify it. maybe throw some tradesmen, college professors, judges, and business leaders in there if they want to put in $.02 about what kids need to compete in the world. (it takes a village, right?) on test day, get volunteer students, TA's, and professors from local universities to help score them, and give the students incentive to do so by way of class credits.

    and, in my opinion, we need to get trade unions into our schools on career day. let kids know that building things isn't just for poor people and immigrants, and that there's a lot of honor in that.

    frankly, though, i don't think conservatives care that much about education; caring about other people's success is anathema to their world view. they don't care about teachers; why do they claim to care about students? to them, it's merely about cost. they claim our budget is broken because we're spending too much on education, and they're holding students' proficiency and teachers' paychecks hostage in order to get their taxes reduced. they're all about the costs to them, personally.

    reality: school boards are the ones who grant all of these concessions you complain about when they negotiate with teachers' unions. don't like the contract? get new negotiators. it's not illegal to fire teachers who don't perform, nor does it violate contracts. the simple fact is that school boards simply choose not to fight those battles - for example, laying of the most recently-hired teachers first, instead of veterans who don't perform as well.

    then there's empirical evidence: the gulf coast states have very few unionized teachers. according to your logic, they should be outperforming new york, illinois, and california. but that isn't the case.

    is it even remotely possible, in your opinion, that poverty has a negative effect on education? and that increases in poverty exacerbate the problem?

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  45. redblack...

    "reality: school boards are the ones who grant all of these concessions you complain about when they negotiate with teachers' unions. don't like the contract? get new negotiators."

    couldn't have said it better myself :)

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  46. kootchman
    Member Profile

    How about this... you REALLY need to see the video portion on how NYC goes about firing teachers... there is no friggin way possible given the union contract... let's see.. 80,000 teachers.. only two fired for incompetency? Dude it took six years to terminate a sexaul predator..and hundreds of thousands in legal bills..exactly what the union intended. ...HUH? How about teachers, act like professionals... the very definition of a professional is they are not unionized. How about a principal firing on the spot an incompetent..as the executive in charge of the school he should have that authority. Yes, again, poverty ha an effect... if you look at the Charter schools in Harlem and Oakland... the best performing schools are the in the poorest districts. Especially watch the Oakland teacher... the highest scoring school, ...is the most impoverished. Charter school dude... free work rules, teachers creating their own curriculum, getting merit pay... and they LOVE teaching there.

    That's like telling a patient that to remove a wart on finger... you have to take off an arm. Look at the NYC flow chart... the flow chart that is over 30 feet long to dismiss an incompetent teacher.

    How about .... making WA not a mandatory union state? Optional? There are only 19 states left with compulsory union representation... yep WA is one. redblack... did you watch any of the video? dude? C'mon be a school hero... I will pop for a shopping cart of pens, paper, etc... support your local schools!

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  47. Kootch...

    all you can see is unions and union contracts..

    you seem incapable of seeing the debt on capital improvements
    the administrative abuses
    the decisions not to fund materials and textbooks

    all good teachers who are still teaching are doing so because they love teaching

    they sure aren't doing it for the money or benefits any more...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  48. kootchman
    Member Profile

    The money is fine. An almost part time job? ALL is as ridiculous as EVERY... some teach because it is benefit loaded. It has more days off than any private sector job. We have updated and invested a lot in capital improvements, but those my friend do not come from the operating budget. Those were voter approved initiatives. They are for better or worse, fixed costs to the old taxpayer. They are finite, defined, and time limited.

    Sometimes ya just have to call bull______ !

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/seattle-schools/article/What-cuts-Seattle-Public-School-s-budget-is-more-1463424.php

    "collective bargaining costs associated with principal and teacher contracts raised expenses $8.6 million for the coming school year. And pensions will cost about $2.4 million above projected revenue."

    Finne points out that Seattle Public Schools has millions in reserve funds -- and a funding level that outpaces other Washington state school districts.

    "Seattle school district is the richest in our state, and so really, for them to be crying poverty is simply not true," she said.
    Finne added: "I'd like to see people tell it straight to the public. I think the public deserves better treatment.

    Or this little gem of liberal corruption...

    http://www.kuow.washington.edu/program.php?id=22746

    75% of the State General Education fund is allocated to... teacher and staff salary.

    Just cause ya hear it, over and over and it fits your paradigm..just doesn't make it true. Ya know what I notice a LOT... facts are inconvenient, and there are many who just flat out refuse to do the research. Every source, from the Heritage Foundation, to the WEA will put their agenda forth... directed neither at truth or thoughtful discourse. I am a Libertarian with some blemish... I can be convinced of thought modification.... on this issue, I am so for decentralized, autonomous, teacher excellence.. I hope they can rise to the intellectual achievement their education would support. But... they can't. They have two great hurdles..union protections of the worst, the longest serving, and a school board system that is driven by politics. I say give charter schools a fair chance Let the principals decide how that 275K per classroom are allocated to get the best results... and damn .. if there is a teacher who can take 26 kids to the top 10% ... who uses his or her ingenuity, love of the profession, and creativity... I will be the first to champion a 100K compensation. The status quo as it is ? The ones that don't move the needle... 40K is too much. Get rid of them. There has to be room to allow attempts at innovation.... or we get more of what we have 40 years of flat and declining test scores, and increased drop out rates. C/mon we have forty years of failure...

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  49. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I give you this gem... I would get 40-60 pimply faced boot camp grads. Some were dumb as rocks... but not my call. God (Commandant of the Marine Corps) said he needed those artillary or mortar men.. and he needed them in 8 weeks. Little did they know, they would be doing trig.. and we never mentioned the word. Now, I could adhere to the training schedule.. but trust me...god would not get his quota. So ... if it took 18 hour days, peer mentoring, visual aids, after dinner remedial help..hand holding, foot in the ass, cajoling, hell phone calls to their mothers.... I never failed to deliver...not once. Now... I made E-6 in 18 months... a rarity in combat arms MOS's... (from E-4)..and left as an E-7 GY/Sgt ..after six years... five pay grades were meritorious promotions. Most of my peers..got their time in grade promotions... E-4, E-5's.... merit pay ... not seniority. Lo and behold, I found the same to be true in the private sector.. unions fight like hell to refuse motivational option.

    Posted 7 months ago #         
  50. kootch...

    you think teaching is an almost part time job?
    and you base this on what?
    the hours teachers are required to spend in classrooms?

    have you added in the hours required for administrative meetings?
    What about the hours required to grade homework?
    what about the hours spent mentoring students?
    What about the hours required to supervise social and sports programs at the school?
    what about the hours required for continuing education .. not for promotion but simply to keep your job?

    it is very clear to me that you have never stood close enough to a teacher to realize just what their work day or work year entails...

    "So ... if it took 18 hour days, peer mentoring, visual aids, after dinner remedial help..hand holding, foot in the ass, cajoling, hell phone calls to their mothers.... I never failed to deliver...not once."

    how is it you didn't learn more about the reality of teaching from this experience?

    do you really think it takes any less commitment to teach kids?

    teaching is no more a part time position than owning your own business.
    however.. the payoff has a lot more to do with personal satisfaction than with money.

    And the reality of those paychecks..
    unless they teach in the inner city or suburban decay or rural America...
    teachers can't afford to live in the school districts in which they teach..

    but hey..

    as long as you think they do all right with their part time jobs it's ok :(

    Posted 7 months ago #         

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