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(21 posts)

Proposed: An Intelligent Debate of "Intelligent Design"


  1. In a recent post on religion in schools, someone mentioned Intelligent Design. The two things are clearly related, but "ID" is big enough for its own thread, I think, so let's have a debate.

    Let's score the debate like a wrestling match: You earn points for doing things well, and you lose points for doing things poorly.

    Rules:

    Stating an opinion = +1 point
    Giving a reason for your opinion = +2 points
    Giving a good reason for your opinion = +3 points

    Debunking a false claim = +2 points
    Exposing a poorly made argument = +3 points

    Expressing scorn for an opponent = -1 point
    Expressing scorn for an opinion = -1 point

    Being snarky = Technical Foul

    Now then . . . to get us started . . .

    Anybody recognize me?

    Hint: I'm Canadian. Old school. (Very old school.)
    Some might think me "intelligent"; while others will demur.

    It could be argued either way.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. Just an "anomaly".... ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. anonyme
    Member Profile

    Anomalocaris, to be exact. Large predator of the Burgess Shale. My BFF did an extensive study and graphic representation of this fellow.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. Unfortunately you seem to have missed the issue. Intelligent design is not about the end result but the cause. On the one hand people observe their environment, different species, fossils, the universe and all that stuff and say that on this planet there are so many variables that gettting something like life out of the chaos is inevitable. On the other hand is the underlying theory that the "natural" state is chaos so the fact that we exist shows that some kind of structure/order has been applied. An External Influence has been applied.
    A similar issue is addressed in describing the babel fish in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
    "Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing". "But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic"

    Yes it can be a fun and interesting exercise to discuss the validity of intelligent design but if I saw a unicorn shape in a fluffy cloud I'm not going to say well this suggests that unicorns do exist"

    Julie get 1 point
    DP gets 0 points!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. "We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."
    ---- Ray Mummert, creationist from Dover, Pennsylvania, 2005

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. "To be sure, Darwin's theory of evolution is imperfect,
    However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions."

    -- Judge John Jones III, a Republican appointed by President Bush

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. Only 28% of Americans believe in evolution (and two-thirds of these believe evolution was “guided by God”). 53% are actually creationists.
    -- Sam Harris

    ----------------------------------------

    “Despite a full century of scientific insights attesting to the antiquity of the earth, more than half of our neighbors believe that the entire cosmos was created six thousand years ago. This is, incidentally, about a thousand years after the Sumerians invented glue.”
    -- Sam Harris

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. Per Ken's quote:

    . . . the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific proposition. —Judge Jones

    Judge Jones is describing a fallacy called "argument from ignorance," which goes like this:

        I don't know what causes A.
        Therefore A MUST be caused by B.

    Astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson uses "argument from ignorance" to characterize the way some people justify their belief in extraterrestrial intelligence. They say:

        I saw something odd in the sky.
        I can't explain what it was.
        Therefore, it MUST have been an alien spaceship.

    Translated to ID, the argument goes like this:

        Biological organisms are complicated.
        I can't explain how such complexity could come about.
        God must be responsible.
     
    ************************************************************************************

    I'm not sure I follow mpento's logic above, except to the extent that it demonstrates how difficult the problem is. But anyway, recognizing that God is nothing but a huge paradox might actually be a good start . . .

    A paradox is an interesting critter too, you know. Just like an Anomalocaris.

    The Anomalocaris and the other creatures of the Burgess Shale evolved some 500 million of years ago. The reason these critters are relevant to this debate is this:

    Many of the Burgess Shale life forms were complex and fascinating. Looking at them, you might conclude that they represent intelligent design. However, most of them ultimately perished, and not just because of climate conditions or meteor strikes, either. Most of them just . . . died out, victims of an unsucessful body type. In fact, biologists now think of the Cambrian Era as a time of prolific natural experimentation in design. Designs that were good were "kept"; those that weren't died out.

    So I can see how someone could perceive the hand of a designer at work in the Cambrian. At the same time it makes you wonder: If a design truly represents intelligence, then why wouldn't that design ultimately succeed?

    Did the Designer just goof up? Or what?

     

    Perhaps we should ask Hallucigenia.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. Don't bother, DP. I've asked hallucigenia many times and I'm no closer to an answer. :)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. A physician of my acquaintance once called the human knee the best argument against Intelligent Design he'd ever encountered.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Genesee Hill
    Member Profile

    Genesee Hill

    Oh, datamuse!

    Why did you bring the knee up? My right knee has been GREAT for 59 years, 7 months. But, now it wakes me up at night, throbbing. At 59 years, 8 months.

    Where is this intelligent design that so many foam about?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. AHexpat
    Member Profile

    AHexpat

    I was driving through Utah last Sunday and caught part of a sermon being broadcast on the radio in Salt Lake City. The person leading the service was lamenting the "lies of Darwin" and saying that it is a shame anyone is tricked into believing them. His argument against evolution was based on the fact that mules are unable to reproduce. He said that since they are the product of two different animals with different DNA, it is clearly impossible for any animal with a genetic mutation to reproduce. He followed that by saying something to the effect of, that is all you ever need to know about evolution, so don't bother looking it up.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. When infected by Hallucigenia, would said life forms have soluccinations? (Hallucination induced Solutions?) I know I have had some awesome ideas but couldn't remember them the next day!

    I Love the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The books and the BBC television series, not so much the movie. It was not Intelligently Designed.

    That preacher reminds me of a dumb blonde joke.

    A blonde was driving down the road listening to the radio and was quite upset when she heard blonde joke after blonde joke. A little way down the road, she saw another blonde out in a field rowing a boat. The blonde stopped her car and angrily jumped out yelling,

    "You dumb blonde bimbo! It's blondes like you that give the rest of us a bad name! If I could swim I'd come out there and give you what's coming to you!"

    The creator or random chance must have a sense of humor.

    My sincere apologies to you dumb blondes. I will await your reply.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. HMC Rich

    even a dumb blonde understands that two animals with a genetic mutation can reproduce...

    after all.. they had parents too.

    the stork that delivered them definately wasn't sterile.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. 2 Much Whine
    Member Profile

    2 Much Whine

    I have yet to post on this thread but would surely receive a technical foul at some point so I'll just save everyone the trouble and step away from the discussion.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. 2 Much Whine...
    good for a small chuckle..
    reserving laughter for the actual post...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. Genesee Hill
    Member Profile

    Genesee Hill

    2 Much Whine:

    Yep. Almost everyday, I swear to myself, in the morning, of course, that I will quit posting on these WSB forums.

    One day, hopefully, for all of the WSB forum readers, I will keep my promise!

    Tomorrow, April 5th, will be the day I keep my promise. I promise!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. Genessee Hill...

    you would be missed if you quite posting

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. The way some people think about complexity is the same way they think about coincidence. Which is to say, sloppily. And magically.

    http://www.wimp.com/justcoincidence/

    Now I'll be the first to admit that if humans were incapable of magical thinking, life here on Earth wouldn't be very . . . well . . . magical.

       

    —Which is not to say that I reject Intelligent Design out of hand just because there's a bit of pixie dust in it. In fact, I'm more than willing to entertain ID as a theory. But I do wish ID proponents would show a little more um . . . Intellectual Discipline.

    They can start by defining what constitutes intelligence. Does it equate to complexity, for example? I don't think so.

    You see, just because one design is more complex than another doesn't mean that it's the more intelligent of the two. In fact, some of Nature's most elegant answers are also the simplest.

       

     

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. Caduceus
    Member Profile

    Caduceus

    There really isn't much to discuss on the current concept of ID.

    Most people think [insert mathematical probability with a large number here] Therefore God must exist.

    Or [Insert something about primordial soup, simple proteins and nucleic acid here] Which is more believable than God because of how Science-y it is.

    To be fair there are a few in the middle humdruming around not really caring.

    But in reality we haven't reached the point where we've developed or discovered the answer, if we ever will. I mean the world ends next year, right? We're kind of running out of time.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. Caduceus

    The world has routinely ended for some branch of some religious sect every year for all of time...

    So many... so disappointed....
    to have to clean up the mess they thought they were leaving behind.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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