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(36 posts)

Progresive is not just another word for democrat


  1. I won't mention who because he was a nice kid

    ... ok..ok..so i have officially turned into an old fart...

    but one of our local campaigners dropped by the house this weekend and when asked what was progressive about him, he told me that progressive was just the new label for democrats:(

    is this the new face of progressive democrats... as lazy and inarticulate as the republicans.. expecting us to salivate at buzzwords like progressive?

    if you want my vote... make the word progressive on your campaign literature stand for something worthwhile.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

    http://www.progressive.org/

    progressive is not just another label for democrat.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    I think there's a lot of progressives out there who would be deeply insulted by that responce from one of our local campaigners, and I think it's important that you share who that was, JoB.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. People also think progressive is a replacement word for liberal.

    In the past there were republican liberals as well as progressives.

    No more. They have been purged. Well maybe the teabaggers will finish the job...

    Here is the last one I have read:
    http://republicansunited.us/2010/04/competing-liberalism-and-conservatism-liberal-republicans-and-conservative-democrats/

    Excerpt:

    Past “liberal” republicans such as Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, La Guardia, Thomas Dewey, Nelson Rockefeller and Earl Warren represented Republicans who adhered to basic liberal ideology of positive government action to alleviate economic and social ills and to funnel and guide in a basic way the powerful free-market system to ultimately benefit not the CEO’s or stockholders or the upper echelon of society but for the rest of Americans.

    People of a political unit (City, State or country)owning and operating their infrastructure (Roads, water, power and waste disposal) are progressive values and have been under attack by conservatives for decades. As liberals and progressives are driven out of the republican party, electing republican becomes more dangerous since the corporate, theocratic and know nothing (teabagger) wings are all that is left.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. Yardvark..

    LOL... i think the conversation he had with me was probably censure enough .. and hopefully educational:)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. Ken,

    You forget to also mention the original Liberals. Our Founding Fathers, a few of whom actually participated in The Tea Party (which has little to do with a group using the same name these days).

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    As long as you set him straight, JoB. He was probably just delusional from all the doorbellin'.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. Hmm. It's pretty easy to refute. Just reference the Blue Dogs.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. Yardvark..

    having interacted with the group of "progressives" who came out for the primary.. i don't think he really knew the difference. I am sure they didn't.

    i am glad to see all of the political enthusiasm in younger people.. i just wish they were more informed.

    it probably seemed to him that i was quibbling.. but these things matter. If you don't know what you stand for.. how can you stand?

    and yes.. i did set him straight.

    julie..

    i did ;->

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. Ah, but what does it mean to be "progressive" anyway?

    Ken, you've given one example of a political value (local ownership and control) but I don't think you'd be able to find any conservative (tea-flavored or otherwise) coming out against something like that.

    Something a conservative might be against, I imagine, is local infrastructure being regulated by an expanding federal government. But is that something a progressive would be against? Not necessarily . . .

    Hm . . .

    JoB, would you be willing to consider that part of the problem stems from the loaded nature of this term "progressive"? All it means, technically, is someone who's for progress. But when's the last time you heard someone come out against it?

    See, when you call yourself progressive, you are asking people to buy into your assertion that you are somehow more enlightened (i.e., for progress) than the other guy.

    Hell, maybe you are . . . but the label itself doesn't mean much until it's put into the context of deeds. And even then, it's the deeds that are important, not the label.

    It's kind of like starting off a discussion about Israel by referring to Jews as "God's Chosen People."

    Still, it IS important to talk about progress, so let's talk about that.

    Yeah. Um . . . So what is it?

    Well, to a liberal, it might mean spending more on the social safety net, on the theory that it will lift people out of poverty. To a conservative, it might mean cutting taxes on the same theory, viz., that it will lift people out of poverty. Since both programs aim to move society forward, then either one would constitute a progressive program, would it not?

    So what I'm saying, JoB, in a very roundabout way, is that you are absolutely right to question ANY candidate referring to himself as "progressive" and expecting to get your vote based on that.

    So I agree with you, actually.

    Just not for the reasons you wanted me to.

    ;->

    Anyway, have a progressive day, y'all.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    Agreed, DP. But the one definition that doesn't work is:

    "Progressive is just the new label for Democrats"

    It's a bit worrisome and kinda offesive if one of our Democrat cadidates actually believes that. A lot of folks who might be happy to be labeled progressive - whatever it means to them - might not dig being automatically lumped in with a political organization.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. If a republican has supported municipal ownership of any infrastructure, in the last 40 years, I seem to have missed them.

    http://foundsf.org/index.php?title=MUNI_History_II:_The_Progressive_Era_and_Public_Development

    But that is all history.
    Nearly everyone is unsure what progressive really means.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/141218/americans-unsure-progressive-political-label.aspx

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. wiki says it well..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

    "American progressives tend to support international economics: they advocate progressive taxation and oppose the growing influence of corporations. Progressives are in agreement on an international scale with left-liberalism in that they support organized labor and trade unions, they usually wish to introduce a living wage, and they often support the creation of a universal health care system. Yet progressives tend to be more concerned with environmentalism than mainstream liberals."

    considering where progressive thought began in the united states... agian from wiki..

    "The Progressive Movement began in cities with settlement workers and reformers who were interested in helping those facing harsh conditions at home and at work. The reformers spoke out about the need for laws regulating tenement housing and child labor. They also called for better working conditions for women."

    it's unlikely that progressives are going to advocate a "free market" ... since a free market does not protect workers at all.

    or.. you could just read the progressive. lots of good ideas in there :)

    http://www.progressive.org/

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. maplesyrup
    Member Profile

    maplesyrup

    Are opposition to corporations and progressive taxation tenets of international economics? What defines "international economics" anyway? I'm curious.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. "International economics" is indeed a bit vague. By that, the Wiki author(s) probably meant someone who sees both American workers and American corporations as part of a global whole.

    In any case, Wiki's definition, though accurate, is also limited to a certain historical context. It's talking about the Progressive Movement, as opposed to a broader set of principles. (By Wiki's definition Teddy Roosevelt, grand imperialist though he was, was still a Progressive.)

    There are some folks around today who would very much like to resurrect the Progressive Movement of the early 1900s. I could go for that, as long as there were some updates to account for a vastly more globalized economy.

    The Green Party has borrowed a lot from the Progressive Movement. Maybe they're what we need.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. Geez, give the kid a break. He might have just been caught off guard by your question. We all shoot our mouths off sometimes and say things we wish we could take back. One of those young political wannabees came to my gate yesterday and the fact that he was doing a lot of hard leg work (I live on a hill) impressed me. He took the time to shake my hand and introduce himself and scored some points with me just for doing that. I'll check out his political positions closer as his campaign progresses.

    Interesting information posted on Progressive thought though. Thanks for the good info.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. Seattle Dems are mostly progressives anyway. With just enough of us old fashioned liberals to keep them from "going Nader" at election time.

    The kid can be forgiven for not living through the "blue hair old ladies only" era of the 34th district Democrats. Though some of them were really hard core progressives too.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. DP..

    imperialism somewhat worked in teddy's day...
    he was too busy reforming American institutions to worry to much about what was happening outside our borders..

    these days the focus on international politics is due to the fact that it no longer does... we will have to take a wider perspective than our shores if we want to compete globally.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. Ken...

    i forgive him for his lack of historical perspective... but worry that the new crop of kids actually think Obama's politics are progressive:(

    We will only make progress by electing more democrats and holding their collective feet to the fire... and

    our newly elected representatives won't do that if they don't understand the need.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    Sadly, JoB, recent tragic events have shown we won't make progress by electing more Democrats.

    How can they take risky and progresive stances when they're so handicapped by their party's consequent vulnerabilities?

    They can't. Their first allegiance is to the Donkey. So what we'll end up with are Obama progressives, who are forced to look at their party's overall national strategy rather than just advocating for what they might believe is right.

    We end up with progressives who were more worried about mid-election election disasters for their Democratic party that they were for the potential (and now very real) disaster in the Gulf.

    Or progressives that, upon closer examination, realize that closing Guantanamo would make their Democratic Party look weak on national defense, despite the fact that the opeation remains undeniably and uncomfortably illegal on all counts.

    They are not progressives. They are Democrats. And the other boys and girls at the party across the street are not conservatives. They are Republicans.

    You just can't elect a Party and expect an idealogy. It doesn't work that way.

    You can, however, elect an independent.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. What Yardvark said. Twice over.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. Yardvark, you're officially in my will. (Shall I put you down for the toaster oven or the end tables?)

    Just beware, for if you vote independent on any race where it actually matters, you will feel the Wrath of the Donkey!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. charlabob
    Member Profile

    charlabob

    And, if enough people feel that way, we will wind up with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Speaker of the House John Boehner. And if you do anything to make that happen, you will face not only the wrath of the donkey -- but, additionally, the contempt of people with a clew(tm)

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. Yardvark
    Member Profile

    Yardvark

    If enough people feel that way, we'll end up with politicians who have enough backbone to stand up to Donkeys, or at least to stand free of them.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. I've said it before, I'll say it again . . .

    (only a little differently each time, just to keep the spice in our relationship)

    The reason we wind up with the politicians we wind up with is because we set our sights so low.

    If the Dems really served their constituencies, then more people would vote for the Dems and wouldn't feel compelled to either stay home or vote for third-party candidates. If Patty Murray loses to Dino Rossi because I didn't vote for her, then the blame rests firmly with her, for not doing what she should have done, like ending the war(s).

    I get so tired of hearing Patty Murray talk about all she's doing for our injured vets. Why doesn't she do something to keep them from getting injured in the first place?

    Why doesn't she bring them home?

    Now there's a clew(tm) for you!

     
     

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. There aren't enough people, so in the mean time we walk into the booth (or open the envelope), hold our nose and vote for the least objectionable. Principle is great, but the last time we voted on principle we sent 5000 kids to their death and watch the economy crumble. Never again.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. Carson, you are contradicting yourself. First you strongly agree with Yardvark (who says vote independent), and now you say you're going to vote Democratic.

    So which is it? Do you agree with Yardvark and me, or do you feel you've got to vote Democrat no matter what? You can't have it both ways.
     

    ** Clarification 1:

    Bush and the Congress—which included Hillary Clinton and a whole bunch of other Democrats— sent X,000 kids to their deaths in Iraq, not us. Maybe you were out there telling the government that it was OK to go into Iraq. I was out there telling them not to.

    I'm still out there, in fact, and they're STILL not listening.
     

    ** Clarification 2:

    Obama has already sent X00 MORE kids to their deaths by refusing to end the wars that Mr. Bush started.
     

    ** Clarification 3:

    The time for standing up for principles isn't just when you get "enough people" or when you're sure it won't hurt.

    When it comes to war, the time for standing up for principles is now.

    If you vote your conscience, and the wrong guy wins, at least you've still got your conscience, and presumably you'll still be able to act on it. But if you vote against your conscience, and things still go south (like they have on the war, for example) then you've been had twice over.

    The Democratic Party has been rightly referred to as "the graveyard of progressive movements." They get people all excited about the future. They get people using words like "hope" and "change" as if they actually meant something. Then what do they do with all that energy?

    They pour it down the deepest rathole that ever was.

    When I think of all the "hope" the Democratic Party has squandered, all the confusion they've sown, it just makes me ill.

     

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. It all depends on the race. In 2000 Nader gave us Bush. Locally, for US Senate for example, it is a 2 horse race, so as much as you might not like Murray (she is not my favorite) the other choice is far worse. I would prefer an independent (NOT like Lieberman) who can actually win, but if its a close race, I vote to pick the best of the 2 worst, not who I might like to win, but doesn't stand a chance.

    I can actually have it both ways. You can blame Hillary for the war, I blame W. Maybe we are both right, maybe we are both wrong. Does it matter? Nope, its just the internet and I hope no one takes this crap seriously.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. Carson..

    i take this crap seriously...

    and i will take it very seriously if we end up with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Speaker of the House John Boehner because a bunch of people thought it was more important to make a point than to make sure we had representatives and senators who could actually govern.

    This idea of electing progressive independents is a great one.. except for one itty bitty little thing.. you don't get to dance if you aren't invited to the party..

    except for making a lot of great speeches that make everyone feel great they are pretty ineffective at getting actual legislation passed.

    in case you missed it.. that is the job we elect these guys and gals to do...

    yes, they are going to have to compromise to get anything done... but that doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.

    something is almost always better than nothing...
    and nothing is what you will get by making this point.

    as for Obama.. we got just what he said we would get. no less.. and certainly no more:(

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. JoB,

    I take that serious, the stuff posted here, not at all. Like me, you have one vote, I will cast my vote for Murray. Thats the best we can do to keep the senate out of the R's control. As for the House, is there anyone running against McDermott? Either way, he gets my vote as well. One man, one vote, the rants and raves don't change a thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. carson..

    you would be surprised how many minds get changed by some of the comments on this forum.. information has helped many a person make up their mind how to cast that vote.

    btw...lieberman was not elected as an independent

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. JoB,

    I would hope no one takes this forum for anything more than it is. Entertainment. Unless a candidate was willing to post him/herself on here its nothing more than bantering and one liners.

    As for taking serious, I am saying this inclusive to the politics. I do take other postings (reviews, questions, etc) serious. This is like a local version of The Daily Show. Entertaining and for the most part, I agree with whats said. I make my political choices on what the candidates say, not the pundits, or pundit wanna be's.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. Carson...

    i am delighted if you find my conversation entertaining...
    but i still think it's conversation...
    the source of most dynamic public shifts of perception.

    i am first and foremost a radical.
    my venue of choice is conversation.

    if i can be entertaining at the same time..
    so much the better.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. Ahem. Sounds like it's time to trot out my reminder that the voting system needs changing, so that we can vote our conscience without worrying about the "spoiler" effect: We need ranked choice voting.

    Sadly, we lost an opportunity last year when those who would like to maintain the entrenched two-party power system prevailed, both in Pierce County, where misinformation convinced voters to repeal their new system, and in King County, where the committee charged with making recommendations about elections voted to keep the (very flawed) status quo.

    For those who're not familiar with it: on your ballot, you can rank the candidates in order of your preference. If you first choice candidate fails to get enough votes, your vote transfers to your second choice candidate.

    No election system is perfect, but ranked choice, or single-transferable voting, is more accurate than the system we use now, in which you have to decide--do you vote for a very long-shot candidate with whom you most agree, and risk throwing the election toward a candidate with whom you very much disagree, or do you vote the "safe" choice?

    But it will take a lot of work before we improve our democracy with a better voting system.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. It is a representative republic. I think Duckitude wants a true Democracy.

    Why are you complaining? Progressives are sneaky socialists. Progressives might be Democrats but not all Democrats are Progressives. I believe in certain community issues and funding. As much as you try, the Republicans are not the party of NO. They have been the party of sometimes. Spending did not drop during Bush and Republican majorities, did it?

    I do not see or have seen any Republicans elected in the 34th District or the 7th Congressional. Most of you have elected the politicians that have been representing you. Locally, Democrat and Progressives have been elected. That is the make up of this general area. Locally you have determined who goes to Olympia and DC. Obviously, nationally, it is a different story.

    In fact, top two voting is probably better for the Democratic stranglehold you have in this district. Have fun fighting among yourselves. Lefty fighting is very entertaining to watch.

    JoB, you are a nice radical IMO.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. JoB,

    Of course I find you entertaining, but then again, I also find Smitty entertaining. If I ever had questions about an issue, the last place I would ever take serious is an anonymous forum. I also happen to agree with you on more issues than not, but still its nothing more than entertainment.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. HMCRich..

    i have to admit.. the republicans never saw a tax cut for the wealthy or a war or a corporate give away they weren't willing to fund with my dollars.. present or future...

    it's been a very long time since republicans were willing to finance anything else.

    and thanks.. i try to be a very nice radical :)

    Carson...

    what is entertainment for you may be enlightenment for someone else. you never know.

    if the banter makes even one person think it has served it's purpose.

    Julie..

    i am not sure how i feel about that voting system... but it sure would have solved some pesky problems.. like george w :)

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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