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1. kootchman
   Member Profile

   Well as we watched the partnership of federal housing policy and large bank conglomerates rip apart the fiscal health of most of the world... we get a ring side seat to the next really big show. Federal healthcare policy meets another colluding conglomerate. Now we know how Obamacare is going to be "affordable" God save us. Side bets anyone? Who is going to outsmart who" WalMart vs US Dept of HHS? Clean up on aisle 4 is going to have a whole new meaning.

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204358004577028081422859896.html

   Posted 6 months ago #         

2. JoB
   Member Profile

   kootch...

   your assumptions get the better of you again.

   you rephrase a greed-fest so bad that the mortgage industry cannibalized it's own collateral as a government partnership

   and then go on to compare that to Obamacare.

   I agree that Obamacare is not very good legislation..
   mainly because it didn't go far enough to protect citizens...

   but you seem to have overlooked the burden that the healthcare industry placed on individuals that was the reason for reform in the first place.

   At least we now have a reform bill that can be amended to create real reform.

   Posted 6 months ago #         

3. JoB
   Member Profile

   btw..

   you should stop reading the Wall Street Journal for your information.

   I agree that once it was a reliable publication

   that is...
   before scandal journalism took over the financial page

   Posted 6 months ago #         

4. kootchman
   Member Profile

   It's not reform. Your faith in an institution that is not looking out for you and hasn't for the last 50 years astonishes me. Even when you get the first glimmer that the largest corporation is not going to let 23 per cent of the GDP get past them, and they have a strategy to capture the market... nary an alarm bell rings? That they have already figured out how to dominate the industry, cause Wal Mart doesn't go where it isn't the top dog..you can't see the parallels eh? Better go reread that Naked Capitalism post

   Posted 6 months ago #         

5. cadbury
   Member Profile

   Your faith in huge, for-profit corporations to look out for your best interests with health care is even more astonishing.

   Posted 6 months ago #         

6. kootchman
   Member Profile

   HUH? How could you possibly get that interpretation? I am delighted with the system I have now. Obamacare will be a corporate salami just like the mortgage fiasco...and like all government services.. they never control costs and always deliver an inferior product... just what Wal Mart is famous for.. cheap crap.

   Posted 6 months ago #         

7. tom kelley
   Member Profile

   JoB, could you comment on the burden that individuals have put on the health care industry in the form of law suits and fraud driving some docs out of the market due to insurance costs?
   You mention that Obamacare doesn't go far enough to protect citizens. What do you mean by that?

   Posted 6 months ago #         

8. TDe
   Member Profile

   Hey, I thought you were all for free market capitalism and Wal-Mart is just doing what capitalists do. They see a way to make money and they go for it. Why would you have a problem with that when you espouse free enterprise and unregulated capitalism?

   Maybe I'm missing something in the WSJ article, because I don't subscribe and can't read most of it. Could you cut and paste it?

   Posted 6 months ago #         

9. kootchman
   Member Profile

   I am for free markets. Not crony capitalism where government and private institutions collude. That being an Obama trademark of governance. It is not the federal governments job to provide Wal Mart with a market. That is what they did for the banking industry and look how much that is costing us. Just like big labor... I am fine that folks organize .. I am not for government protecting unions through artificial props like Davis Bacon that increase taxpayer costs. Amazon fights internet sales taxes.. until? They find a way to collect them for themselves and other online sellers and get a piece of the action.. now they are all for interstate sales taxes. Getting the picture here? Job is just so convinced it was "greedy banks" and her hope that her vision of an eternally paternalistic federal government is not what it is. Yea JoB I do read the WSJ.. and lots of other stuff too... you can't source one idealogy you agree with and get a balanced view. She likes centralized, planned, economies... ya know.. the ones that have failed over and over again. I think freedom just scares some people. It's too big.

   Posted 6 months ago #         

10. skeeter
    Member Profile

    I welcome Wal Mart in the healthcare business. Just like they've helped make sneakers, TVs, and jars of pickles cheap, Wal Mart will do the same for medical services. And competitors will be forced to match prices. Bring it on, I say.

    So many seniors have paid a few thousand dollars into medicare and now receive medicare benefits of thousands of dollars per year for 20 years. Completely unsustainable. If you think social security is in trouble, look at medicare. It's in way worse shape. Bush started medicare prescription coverage but didn't raise taxes to pay for it. Again, completely unsustainable.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

11. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Great... let's just trash Obamacare then and you can go to Wal Mart and I will retain my healthcare. Perfect. There ya go. Let's keep the federal government out of it. Happens everyday, some people like Wal Mart shoes.. I don't, I can make my choice and you can make yours. I can comparison shop for pharmaceuticals.. or all manner of things. Whatever fits my needs. I don't need a wizened old hag in the Senate to tell me what my healthcare should look like. Since "we" are buying the service, and to avoid crony back deal capitalism, no federal mandates.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

12. metrognome
    Member Profile

    Kman -- I'd like to thank you for forcing me to retire my old HP laptop with XP and no memory, cuz it exploded when the coffee shot out my nose and doused the keyboard:

    "Not crony capitalism where government and private institutions collude. That being an Obama trademark of governance."

    THANK DOG that didn't happen when George the Incompetent was in office. Heckuva a job, Blackwater and Haliburton and all the other Republican-owned companies that made hundreds of millions if not billions in excess profit from no-bid contracts.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

13. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootchman...

    you seem to have overlooked the fact that our US military (you can't get more government than that) provided top notch services at a very reasonable price until they started outsourcing coverage... to HMO programs among others.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

14. JoB
    Member Profile

    tom kelley,

    the simple remedy for both irresponsible lawsuits and for protecting citizens rights to quality health care at a reasonable cost is the same...

    single payer

    Posted 6 months ago #         

15. kootchman
    Member Profile

    JoB now I know a hell of a lot more about military healthcare than you. First most dependents in lower pay grades, and in intensive deployments billets, have spouses and dependents who do not live on a military facility. They go home to live with families and the larger family support network, Dependent Health care is larger by far than the uniformed members. Second, there are not enough specialty surgeons and docs... so they send head injury, spinal wounds, etc... outside the military system where it can be done correctly. And it is pure bullshit the military provides top notch medical care... ask a vet. The military system is a triage system, treating, stabilizing, and referring... Madigan is sending the most complicated cases to Swedish, Valley etc. If you have athletes feet.. you will get treatment on base...got a 12 hour operation on a severe spinal wound.. you will end up at the Mayo Clinic, Most military docs are reserve officers.. too expensive to retain on full pay. I have had military surgery thank-you... still have access to it...but I use private insurance. It's better care. I wouldn't be using the military or the VA as the shining light of how wonderful and grand a government run system is.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

16. kootchman
    Member Profile

    See metrognome I can see sleaze, regardless of who does it. Because George Bush did it... it;s o-k for Obama to do it?. or better yet.. you refuse to recognize it now. You do know that George Bush is no longer president? Right? We are talking about now.. the present. I need to break out the book of Presidents and list the shortcomings of everyone on each posting? Back to that "Bush did it" thing AGAIN? Stay in the present dude...even if it is a little hard. Concentrate. Some of the grandest whoppers in the history of the republic had a democrate in the oval office.. and republicans are well represented too. Glad to see ya upgrade that HP.... every little bit helps.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

17. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Single payer Job.? The Federal government? They can't manage the Waste fraud and abuse now... in any federal program. Even the GAO says over 20 per cent of Medicare is fraud..your solution is to expand their oversight? Too funny.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

18. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    kootch: why do you assume that the federal government has to be the single payer? there are a number of ways to skin that cat.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

19. JoB
    Member Profile

    redblack...

    but it wouldn't make as good a story ;->

    the truth is that US govt employees had one of the best single payer medical programs available in the world ...

    it's no secret that larger organizations are able to negotiate better rates from insurance companies.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

20. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    and my parents and grandparents were well covered by military medical until the day they died.

    dependent care was once very good...

    until those cost cutting mavens you support decided that they would far rather invest in weapons than the military men who manned them...

    all in the name of patriotism :(

    Posted 6 months ago #         

21. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Our Dear Ms. Job has suggested that the single payer plan was the way to go... it was the holy grail of our present crop of socialists..and I point out, accurately, that every social program on the books is beyond regulation. Costs soar and services suffer when the government get involved. It's the government way.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

22. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    it's amazing how quickly you define liberals as socialists...
    thereby dismissing us as some kind of crackpots...

    and all government programs as social programs thereby dismissing them as well.

    I do have to hand it to you for your hubris...

    "Costs soar and services suffer when the government get involved."

    one of the exceptions to that would be medicare...

    total costs may be soaring because of an aging population

    but per patient costs are remarkably low.

    Do you think that could be because direct negotiation has eliminated profit center upon profit center?

    Nah.. that would be too ... logical.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

23. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Uh huh... think how much lower they would be if for every dollar the system took in... 28 cents wasn't taken as government overhead.. a higher percentage than my private coverage! You also do note that there is a shortage of doctors? Yes indeed... call a primary car doc.. first question. your insurance? Medicaire you wait 3-4 weeks. If you are accepted at all. GAO says it all..20% or better of Medicaid and Medicare dollars are lost to fraud.... so we start off with HALF the premiums being pissed away, to make up the shortfall, we dip into future beneficiaries premiums or the general fund. Did you also note they cut the payments to the providers so they didn;t have to raise your rates? Profit centers work great... they get their margins in productivity gains... government gets theirs by raising taxes to cover their efficiency, or ration, or deliver an inferior product. Maybe YOUR costs are exceptionally low.. but they are being paid. A lot of it by that cash strapped, senior subsidizing, student debt laden, younger generation. If your medicaire costs didn't rise 18 per cent last year... someone else subsidized it. What a hoot.. efficient government? ROFLMAO big time!!! Inconceivable!

    Posted 6 months ago #         

24. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    i point out that your assertion is false

    and you counter with but look how much lower it could be...
    and it's lousy service anyway...

    LOL.. thanks for the laugh.

    I think i will go toddle off to my bath now.
    soaking my head is far more productive than bashing my brain cells trying to counter your rapidly moving target.

    y'all have a good day now ;->

    Posted 6 months ago #         

25. kootchman
    Member Profile

    No you didn't. You merely displayed how much you will overlook for the socialist cause. Comrade. Don't drown.. 9-1-1 will work though... ok... some things work.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

26. TDe
    Member Profile

    "...think how much lower they would be if for every dollar the system took in... 28 cents wasn't taken as government overhead.."

    Well, good news for you, K. Wal-Mart will likely step in to grant your healthcare wishes.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

27. cadbury
    Member Profile

    Please provide back-up for your 28 cent overhead statement.
    Every article I'm finding shows medicare overhead to be far less than that (closer to 5%) and less than private for-profit insurance companies.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

28. RarelyEver
    Member Profile

    

    Okay, didn't want to really comment on this, but - I'm from Germany where we have a single payer health care system. I have had a lot of health issues growing up and have always had fantastic & immediate care. In fact, in order to boost my immune system I was twice sent to "Kur" at a resort/spa on the North Sea coast (for two months each), which really helped better my health. I also underwent five surgeries within 3 years without having to worry about being kicked out of the hospital before I was fully recovered.

    Okay, so that was 20 years ago, BUT - my parents, who are both in their 80's now still enjoy fantastic health care. There is no waiting, and when my mom had to have open-heart surgery she was sent to recover at a state-of-the-art facility in the Black Forest for THREE MONTHS afterwards.

    All of this - every single procedure for all of our family, including prescription medications and "health vacations" cost us EXACTLY NOTHING. Yes, taxes are much higher in Germany, but at least you know that your net take home is yours to spend on what you like without having to worry about medical expenses or your children's college education.

    And before I get the usual "then go back to where you came from if it's so much better" - I am moving back in two years and I'm taking my American husband and son with me, partly because I don't see how we can manage to afford our son's college education, our family's health care needs, or a decent retirement in this country - even with both my husband and I working full-time and a household income of $100k+.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

29. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Thanks for the reassurance TDe...

    Posted 6 months ago #         

30. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    the best you can do is to call me comrade?

    gosh I am glad i didn't stick around all day for that.

    cadbury..

    i think he got that 28% number frorm some conservative commentator...

    i don't think it will stand up to fact check...

    I don't think Kootch's assertion that his health care is provided at an overhead lower than 28% will either.
    Somehow I am betting he is failing to report the overhead on a profit center or two.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

31. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Actually JoB the figure is low. First you have the costs of collecting it. That's the IRS, The costs of administering the allocation, that would be the Dept of HHS, the costs of compliance and monitoring. Then, you have the costs of the state overhead and burden, that is taken out of the total block grant. So those costs get repeated again. And of course there is the federal fleet of vehicles, printing, shared resources like audits, enforcement costs, etc, GAO, Inspector General, etc..In many cases that burden is even larger. Add the trillion per annum for federal pension expenses...Since we are currently borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend, we have to add the interest expense, a ten T Bill paying 6% per cent per year. The average corporate overhead. Federal pensions alone cost 1 trillion.. pretty damn sobering. We spend and borrow and a rate greater than 100% of our gross domestic product... and you think there are more taxes in there to be had? We are digesting muscle tissue now, not just eating the fat and surplus. I don't care about corporate profits... I know the market will moderate those. There is no mechanism to moderate government costs... in fact the proof is my insurance company doesn't spend more than it makes!!!!!!!!! The government DOES. For heavens sake look at what we have to borrow as a nation!! Now I see your point about "not caring about the numbers" as long as anyone else has more than you, you are convinced more taxes are the answer. Ya think we could raise taxes by about 4 Trillion? That is about the cost to just balance the per annum budget.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

32. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Actually JoB the figure is low. First you have the costs of collecting it. That's the IRS, The costs of administering the allocation, that would be the Dept of HHS, the costs of compliance and monitoring. Then, you have the costs of the state overhead and burden, that is taken out of the total block grant. So those costs get repeated again. And of course there is the federal fleet of vehicles, printing, shared resources like audits, enforcement costs, etc, GAO, Inspector General, etc..In many cases that burden is even larger. Add the trillion per annum for federal pension expenses...Since we are currently borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend, we have to add the interest expense, a ten T Bill paying 6% per cent per year. Federal pensions alone cost 1 trillion.. pretty damn sobering. . and you think there are more taxes in there to be had? We are digesting muscle tissue now, not just eating the fat and surplus. I don't care about corporate profits... I know the market will moderate those. There is no mechanism to moderate government costs... in fact the proof is my insurance company doesn't spend more than it makes!!!!!!!!! The government DOES. For heavens sake look at what we have to borrow as a nation!! Now I see your point about "not caring about the numbers" as long as anyone else has more than you, you are convinced more taxes are the answer. Ya think we could raise taxes by about 1,2 Trillion? That is about the cost to just balance the per annum budget. Not touching the 15 trillion we owe now. Kool Aid finance.

    Obama Deficits Bush Deficits
    FY 2012: $1,101 billion FY 2009: $1,413 billion
    FY 2011: $1,299 billion FY 2008: $248 billion
    FY 2010: $1,293 billion FY 2007: $161 billion

    Posted 6 months ago #         

33. TDe
    Member Profile

    Am I reading your chart correctly? From 2007 to 2009 the Bush administration drove the deficit up from $161 Billion to $1413 Billion and since then the Obama administration has brought that down to $1101 Billion during the worst recession since the Great Depression? That almost makes the Obama administration look Republican.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

34. JoB
    Member Profile

    Kootchman...

    when i ask about the price for potatoes..
    i am not looking for the aggregate of all root crops.

    TDe...

    i didn't do the math
    but a quite scan of totals would lead me to believe you did.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

35. kootchman
    Member Profile

    .... Bush about 2 trillion.... Obama 3.56 trillion ... Obama wins.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

36. kootchman
    Member Profile

    No, Bush was acing more like a democrate ... and Obama for SURE was acting AS a Democrate.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

37. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch..

    bush didn't have to deal with the economic recession he created.

    Obama did.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

38. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Bush did it, Bush dit it, Bush did it... and Obama can't do it. can't do it. can't do it. Two failures in a row. That fit better?

    Posted 6 months ago #         

39. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    oh, but obama can do it. that's what has the right so apoplectic.

    he has the will, and he has public opinion behind him. what he doesn't have is big money on his side.

    the writing is on the wall, and you know it. if we're going to break the deficit cycle, there will be tax increases and heavier regulation of the monetary system.

    btw, i'm with cadbury. i think you pulled that 28% number out of thin air. you set up a straw man, stated that "overhead" number would be lower if medicare was privatized, all so you can factor profit into the numbers.

    .. and you think there are more taxes in there to be had?

    i know there are. retool the top marginal rates to reflect real income distribution across the population and add FICA taxes to incomes over $107,000.

    comrade.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

40. TDe
    Member Profile

    "i know there are. retool the top marginal rates to reflect real income distribution across the population and add FICA taxes to incomes over $107,000.

    comrade."

    Re-tooling those 2 items would begin to restore my faith that our elected representatives still have the moral fortitude to represent all the people of the United States. Not just the top tiers.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

41. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    blaming Obama because he couldn't overcome Republican resistance in the house and the Senate to fix what Bush created is self serving.

    your post is childish

    Posted 6 months ago #         

42. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Rarelyever... as Europe is crumbling, I began to wonder, how can Germany do these amazing things? Well it seems that they really can't. Not long term anyway. For such a young economy, post war, why the outflows of people? So which of these statements are true and which ones not? Are you an emigre or immigre' ? Now I understand why Merkel and the German people are so fed up with the S. Europe debt crisis... they are getting stressed too.

    "Clocking in just beneath Finland is Germany, with a 45% marginal tax rate on average income workers. Despite having the largest national economy in Europe (and the fourth largest in the world measured by nominal GDP), Germany has effectively traded off having a comprehensive social safety net against more robust economic growth. Its GDP measured by PPP is $35,539 according to the International Monetary Fund – 21st on the list, behind Belgium. As recently as 2007, TheNewEditor.com reported that Germans were emigrating at their highest rate since the 1940′s, resulting in a “brain drain” on the nation’s brightest and most motivated people. As a result of “high taxes and bureaucracy, thousands of Germans have upped sticks for Austria and Switzerland, or emigrated to the United States” — 155,290 during the year in question, which rivals “levels last experienced in the 1940s during the chaotic aftermath of the Second World War.” Furthermore, emigrants are generally said to be highly motivated and educated, while those immigrating to Germany are increasingly poorer and less educated — perhaps more inclined to consume Germany’s generous social benefits."

    Posted 6 months ago #         

43. kootchman
    Member Profile

    JoB... remember the "great conspiracy" theory posted .. where the withholding investments and hiring were a grand collusion of capitalists to usurp the Newly Ascended One? Based on results, I think you are right. There is is a grand theory. Destroy the private sector, make destitute, then dependent, enough people to insure a permanent population of Democratic voters? ! That is our current trend! "Fixing the system" means higher taxes and less service... it's the government way. Sucking the vitality and viability from the young. Very ghoulish..

    I love this one: "i know there are. retool the top marginal rates to reflect real income distribution across the population and add FICA taxes to incomes over $107,000."

    Going to raise my monthly check too? It's not a welfare program. I am supposed to get a return on that government annuity plan. How about CAPPING at 40K..to pay for the subsistance of the working poor. . let me take the the other 14% of that income and invest it as I see fit? I will gladly opt out for any future benefits. We have raised the rates, raised the marginal contribution threshold, and STILL can't make the fund solvent. Uh.. ? I can do a hell of a lot better with my 14% of my income than the government, . Dying younger with rationed health care and the general fund won't have to pay my heirs.. it works. The true hidden estate tax! If I was 24 again, I would be demanding to be decoupled from this scam. Another heist to pass along to the sub 40 crowd. Burp, burp.. whose picking up the tab? We boomers should be ashamed of ourselves.

    Posted 6 months ago #         

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