Yardvark
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The most recent numbers from Pew put Occupy Wall Street ahead of the Tea Party in the polls.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/10/24/public-divided-over-occupy-wall-street-movement/?
Maybe OWS will have an even greater effect and actually bring about some real progress!
csw2119
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Interesting!
I have great hopes for this movement. The fact that it is international is mind blowing! I would like to see the movement become more focused on the top several issues. I'll be at Westlake on Sat. in support.
Yardvark
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It does look like everyone is starting to focus and really deal with the issues head on. It's pretty interesting to see these issues addressed with the Occupy system of consensus, as it definitely provokes more thought that just the old, broken way of Democrats and Republicans fighting among themselves.
Good to see that the people are actually getting involved in the discussion again and realizing that their voices count.
It's good to know that consensus is not a lost art
It's good to see that the genuine movement is more popular than the manufactured one.
I am curious where these numbers stand in three years. I am sure the TP numbers were pretty high after the first couple of weeks as well.
I think it's not even a 50/50 bet that OWS will even exist in one year, let alone three. It may pick up steam if Obama loses though.
Yardvark
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I'd say it's extremely likely that these ideas are here to stay. There's just no going back now. I think everyone really hopes that, a year from now, people won't still have to camp outside in the cold and rain just to try get their voices heard. Obviously, this upcoming year will need to provide some dramatic changes in our politics and our economy.
yes, we do need some very dramatic changes in our politics and economy. Let's see if the movement is as effective as the TEA party was/is.
Something big will be happening here in mid-November. Not allowed to tell you what it is . . .
Notice how the Seattle Times keeps trying to pronounce the Occupy Seattle movement dead, and every time they do, the Movement keeps coming back. From the grave as it were.
How appropriate for the season.
Gotta do something big for N30 this year, though it would be great if the anarchists would stay on the sideline this time. They set this movement back about 20 years.
Dawsoncourt
Agreed
dawsonct: Whom do you mean by anarchists, exactly? Surely you don't mean these cool kids . . .
If you mean "people who smash windows and throw rocks at cops" that's fine. Just say that. But please consider that not ALL anarchists do stuff like that.
And even if they did, I would still argue that it is not THEY who set the movement back.
What set the movement back is apathetic people.
What set the movement back is people who wouldn't join in because to do so would mean they might incur some discomfort and inconvenience.
I see hundreds of people just like that every time I stand out there for peace at the Junction.
Ha-RUMPF!
Yardvark
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Apathy is definitely the biggest threat to our country. If you support (or even oppose) the Occupy movement and haven't gotten out there yet, time to get going on it.
As much as I disagreed with many of the Tea Party's opinions, I found it really inspiring that so many people were finally waking up and demanding to be a part of the process.
Unfortunately, the Tea Party movement seemed to make a mistake by handing over its reigns to Republicans. I'm kinda hoping that slip up is soon corrected.
I also see the Occupy movement having a lot more potential than the Tea Party since the main objective isn't just to get folks elected or put a wrench in the works.
The benefit of a leaderless movement is that success isn't simply determined by someone's victorious election. It's determined by actual change and improvement to our country. And, in that way, the burden is on all of us.
Jiggers
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Nothing going on at Westlake Park this morning. Empty! Only the police hanging around. Go corporate stop the stupidity. Its the new America. Move on!
westseattledood
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Not quite Jiggers.
The camp is moving to Seattle Central Community College on Cap Hill.
Jiggers
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Who cares about over there. Corporate machines surround Westlake Park.
westseattledood
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They have been given the OK to camp there. SCCC says, according to WAC, it is legal to do so on campus.
Jiggers
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I heard earlier this week they said it wasn't legal to camp.
Yardvark
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Westlake is pretty packed at the moment. Where are you, Jiggers?
The camp will be over at SCCC but a lot of the daytime activities will continue at Westlake. SCCC said it was the people's constitutional right to assemble and camp. Why doesn't our Mayor know that?
DP, I just think the WTO protests would have been more effective and reached more sympathizers of it stayed a protest, instead of devolving into a riot. Because of the unnecessary actions of a self-identified anarchists group, I feel that a message of the dangers of globalization was lost in the haze of tear gas.
Had the demonstration stayed at a level of passive resistance, I feel the point would have been made much more effectively.
I DO think that anarchy, like libertarianism, is a Utopian fantasy.
Also, is there something specific about those young men that identifies them as anarchists? If so, please enlighten me, since I am not seeing it.
http://youtu.be/2JlxbKtBkGM
i like the logic of just sending the junk mail back to them. for those who cannot get downtown or want to do a little bit more.
Yardvark..
the tea party didn't hand it's reins over to anyone...
they were held by the Koch brothers financing from day one...
DP.. and not all hippies were pot smoking, dirty bums...
but those who were sure made it easy to write everyone else off.
Rioting will never produce anything other than over-reaction from authority.. which btw is exactly what those who incite riot count on.
i don't know why they haven't figured out yet that while they may win short term concessions that way.. they lose their message every time:(
Yardvark
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The Tea Party mighta been helped along by financing from the Kochs and coverage from Fox, but there were genuine Americans involved as well, who were really trying to stand up for something. Those genuine Americans seemed to loose their battle the day they decided on propped up candidates and leaders. The Kochs easily took it from there.
Hey JoB .. you and Dave Koch have a falling out? . There are so many people trying to "shape" the WS street message. It's a grand festival of activists of every stripe hoping they can hijack a message trend. This was Obama's core constituents, his army, and they aren't out knocking on doors, organizing van pools, running those phones. Labor and liberals are trying to get this "collection" to speak with a "clear" message. Theirs.
kootch..
dave and i were never on speaking terms
works for me:)
as for the OWS movemnt..
you can't shape what hasn't yet been written
One difference between OWS and The Tea Party is hygiene! Maybe you can't shape this "movement", but can you bathe it? Would it hurt to maybe try occupying a shower?
Another difference; after a Tea Party event, the place is ALWAYS cleaner than it was before the rally. Contrast that with the filth, litter, drugs, rats, damaged property and grafitti that has now occupies downtown Seattle. Is their objective to make Seattle look like Detroit?
I don't have a problem with a rally, hell, whatever gets these people out of their parents' basements, I'm all for it!
http://news.yahoo.com/dozens-arrested-occupy-demonstrations-austin-portland-193750588.html
Not the kind of press a movement that has some momentum does not need. Tell your "friends" that sometimes the rules need to be followed SO THAT YOUR MESSAGE CAN BE HEARD.
Arrests for dealing drugs, public urination, defecation, sexual gratification and other items too numerous to list. Time to let the members to grow up.
The Tea Party has taken a lot of grief and contrary to the misinformation spread quite often, I am not attacking the people who are behind it. I can if you want me to, but for now I won't. It is time to tell your peeps to use the gray matter between their ears.
Doesn't OWS mean Occupy West Seattle?
See ya.
Yardvark
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HMC & JV:
You really need to get down there to see these demonstrations in person. It'd be even better if you participated, regardless of your views.
I'm sure neither of you would be surprised at my conclusion that you're taking derogatory things you've heard from pundits and applying them without your own knowledge included.
I've seen a lot of opinions expressed in these forums. By and large, the discussion is far more informed, investigative, and rational than that of most national media these days. So I'd be really interested in someone who's not in favor of Occupy providing a review of their visit to the events.
Maybe next weekend? Any takers?
JV..
I don't seem to remember tea party activists occupying anything.
As for those kids..
many of them would have a difficult time residing in their mother's basement since mom either resides in a nursing home or died long ago...
their grandkid's basement.. maybe.
It's easy enough to make assumptions about who and what the protesters are since the media seldom profiles the 60+ sensibly dressed grandparents in the crowd ..
but you should be aware that those are only assumptions.
Yard, I see the demonstrations as I drive through downtown, and lately I've been keeping my car window up so I don't have to smell them. I admit, this may be an unfair characterization for the other 20% who go home and shower on a somewhat regular basis.
JoB, you're right. Tea Partiers didn't occupy anything. They got permits, provided their own power, provided their own outhouses, had their rally, leaving the places cleaner than when they arrived. No bottles or rocks thrown at police officers, no crapping on police cars. It's just a different class of human being. (not using the word "class" as you do...I'm using it to mean "classy" as opposed trashy.)
Some people want to believe that this "movement" is some sort of beautiful, peaceful, exercise of free speech. It's not. It's bored 20-somethings with $100,000 in school loan debt, and a worthless degree in left-wing-social-grievance-studies. They should be protesting in front of the universities.
Yardvark
Member Profile
Again, JV, I don't think you've been to the demonstrations and I'd encourage you to visit at some point.
Yard, you are correct. I would not want to be mistaken for one of them, and I can see the chaos just fine from my car without the risk of getting fleas.
All joking aside, I'm happy that the Seattle franchise has not followed suit in the violence that so many of the other occupiers have. It's unpredictable, but let's hope they just continue to stay high and docile!
Yardvark
Member Profile
There's a lot of people who disagree with Occupy's main sentiments who are still down there peacefully and openly engaging in dialog. To me, this respectful dialog is essential to a true democracy.
JV, I hope you're able to overcome those quick judgements and false perceptions so that you can share your ideas with the demonstrators. Maybe they could learn something from you and together we could help move this country forward.
For my part, I promise you I don't have fleas, I'm not high, I'm not lazy, I'm not violent, I'm not bored, I just showered this morning, and I'll treat you with respect.
JV obviously has no need to overcome their quick judgement and false perceptions, apparently the Fox Propaganda Channel has provided them with all the "intelligence" they need.
I think everybody is still confused...what are occupy's main sentiments? Everybody seems to have their own issues, so I guess that's the draw.
As for false perceptions, maybe every single news station is incorrect, and the bottles and rocks levitated at the police officers. You have to take responsibility for those actions.
The problem is Occupy has created a chaotic situation that brings out bad people along with good people (I'm including you in the good, in case you are wondering) and you're trying to act like the bad apples don't represent the rest of the group. Maybe they don't represent you, but you still have to take responsibility because OWS threw the party, and invited everybody. You now have big numbers, but with that came the undesirable elements too. Now you own it, for better or for worse...and it's getting worse.
Yardvark
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The Seahawks have the same effect and deal with the same situation, JV. It's up to both the "good" people and the police to isolate these bad elements rather than attack an entire population. Imagine if the police shot tear gas and flash grenades into the Seahawks crowd just because some drunken idiot was getting out of hand. That doesn't happen at the games and it shouldn't happen at otherwise peaceful demonstrations. Thanks, JV.
JV..
and who paid for the tea party rally permits and outhouses and ... ?
as for what you call the "bored 20 somethings"
you need to look again.
some of them have a lot of grey hair.
Who paid for the permits? Not the taxpayers, so who cares? I'm sure there is a lot of grey hair there as well. What else are professors going to do during the other 22 hours of the day that they are not molding young minds?
Yard, it's your job to deal with the bad apples, not the police. Their job is to protect and serve the citizens FROM those people. Their job is NOT to help you sort out which issues are valid for the occupiers. Sorry to break it to you, but while you are standing on the other side of the police tape, you are standing with those bad apples. I wouldn't advise standing next to them when they start throwing stuff at police. Hopefully you can expell that element before they get violent.
I would submit that it requires much more courage to stand up to the bad apples in your movement than anything that has been done up to this point.
Yardvark
Member Profile
It's no more my job than it is your job, JV.
You really need to go down there.
No one is throwing bottles or on any side of any fictional police tape. The demonstrators and the police are working closely together to identify problems and deal with them.
Whatever you say Yard. At the core of this conversation, you don't seem to think you have a public relations problem, and I do.
You don't think the other protests reflect on you, but they do.
If you don't want to stand up to bad apples in your group, then you are standing with them. Saying, "they aren't with us" takes no courage.
You and I are on a different page because I see it as a national/world wide movement, and you see your fellow occupiers up close, who are probably nice folks. I'm looking at the whole forest, you're down in the trees. I see kids playing with fireworks about to start a forest fire, and you see a nice campsite in our little corner of the forest.
You don't have to take my advice, but if you don't do something about the kids with fireworks, we will all get burned.
JV..here's my problem with you...you see everyone else as wrong, and you have all the right answers. What you have is opinions, just like the rest of people on here. You know more than those involved with the Occupation Seattle movement, and you haven't even been close to going down there and finding out for yourself. You've just made up your mind that you know better. Sigh. So much for give and take discourse.
It must be hard to hear an opposing opinion for the first time, huh?
Read my last post again, and tell me if you think I claim to know more than the Occupation Seattle movement. I said I don't. If anything, I was helping Yardvark with a PR problem that he thinks he doesn't have.
Yardvark
Member Profile
I hear what you're saying, JV, about pushing out the violent elements that inevitably show up. I don't think you hear me when I tell you that those who are peacefully involved in this definitely do stand up and push out those elements. At around 2am on Sunday morning, those at the Occupy camp physically removed three skinhead Nazis who walked into the camp and tried to spread their filth.
Those that are involved in this feel a strong tie not only to everyone who's part of the movement here in Seattle but also to all the other Occupy sites. An attack on any of them is an attack on all of us, those who are camping out, those who stopping by, and those who are participating however they can (on blogs, for instance.)
I wouldn't say that Occupy has a PR problem, though, as it's not looking to put a spin on anything. It is what it is. Democracy is messy and (hopefully) no one's gonna start spreading dittohead talking points around just to clean it up.
That said, before you try to interpret it, I'd again recommend that you head on down there just to check it out before you continue on. Give it a chance. Start an argument or two. Even if it's just to get some better material.
For me, it seems as if I'm looking at the forest and the trees but you're trying to convince me that they're all baseball bats or bowling pins.
JV...I hear opposing opinions all the time. You have to make disparaging remarks if I simply don't agree with your opinion?
JV, I disagree with many of the people on this forum but I will say this.
First. They are very nice people except a few, who admit they are not,(but really are). Most lean left as you can tell. OK, a few are idiots but they can be ignored.
In fact, they are acting like Americans by helping out the Nickelsville folks. They are picking up the slack where the government has failed or is not supposed to be involved. Sounds like the old days.
Second. Did many of you who dislike the Tea Party go to some of the meetings or gatherings they had? I went to a citizens meeting sponsored by MoveON.org on the Peninsula. The people were great, well behaved and had a whole lot of thoughts about what is currently happening, (Some which ran parallel with the Tea Party - some, not many)
Considering all the trash that has been piled on the Tea Party from various members of this forum, I find it quite interesting when the right side decides to answer back with their "opinions" it is met with some interesting quips.
Hey, what is the OWS name calling version of a Teabagger? I don't know, probably a .... or a ......?! Name calling is juvenile. Maybe some of you will grow up some day and see reality.
But the tone on the forum has been fairly civil so far. So have fun and know that Progressive Seattle is taking a major body blow with a few upper cuts in the coming elections.
Yardvark, I commend you on your work. I know unsavory elements were also pushed out certain Tea Party gatherings. The truth is a lot of people are unhappy about a lot of things.
Trick or Treaters knocking at my door. I am finished with the Passive Aggressive postings for a bit.
Yardvark, that's good! I'm glad to hear that on Sunday morning you did exactly what I said you should be doing. (That shouldn't have taken that much typing back and forth.) Some of the other franchises should try it. It will be interesting to see where each club chooses to draw their line. "Nazis? No. Communists? Yes. Anarchists? Sure. All are welcome! Chaos, but with the line drawn at Nazis." It's a start!
I agree, HMC Rich, the tone has been fairly civil. Which is why I've kept most of my OWS nicknames to myself thus far! =)
I should go down to SCCC to visit some future employees. They have or had a very good Electronics Communications (Video) program.
Since I can't make it down there tonight, I thought I would post some of the supporters of OWS.
Communist Party USA -
American Nazi Party
Ayatollah Khamenei- Supreme Leader of Iran
Barack Obama
The Government of North Korea
Louis Farrakhan, Nation of Islam
Revolutionary Communist Party
David Duke
Joe Biden
Hugo Chavez
Revolutionary Guards of Iran
Black Panthers
Socialist Party USA
US Border Guard
Industrial Workers of the World
CAIR
Nancy Pelosi
Communist Party of China
Hezbollah
9/11Truth.Org
International Bolshevik Tendency
Anonymous
White Revolution
International Socialist Organization
PressTV (Iranian government outlet)
Marxist Student Union
Freedom Road Socialist Organization
ANSWER
Party for Socialism and Liberation
This list has been stolen from the Big Government which I found on Twitter. It has links and source links.
I am OK with all of these groups supporting the OWS, but I find the list interesting. With friends like the Ayatollah Khamenei, who needs an enema ... I mean enemies.
However...when asked, over 70 per cent of the parents polled said of "occupiers" said they would prefer their children were working on Wall Street, vs protesting there. Go figure.
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