West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Politics

1. CountingCoup
   Member Profile

   

   As the debate grows nearer (tonight at 6pm) I have the premonition that our expectations could be waylaid by the moderators.

   After watching the democratic debates, I believe the debate was completely controled and dependent of the moderator gotcha type questions stemmed around political agendas. Example: flagpin questions

   Based on the type of questions and the time and amount of rebuttals that were allowed, this debate could be channeled to favor either of the candidates positions.

   It's unfortunate that the moderators setting up the questions and managing the debate often believe they are the stars of these debates instead of the canidates.

   My only hope is that the moderators open up the floor with good questions that allow the candidates to respond with deep answers and allow them to debate each other with rebuttals. We Americans deserve that...

   With that said, "Let The Games Begin" :-)

   Posted 3 years ago #         

2. Ken
   Member Profile

   

   It seems the WSJ has a time machine and it looks like McCadaver won the debate. Check out this screenshot.
   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/images/26Sep_Friday_WSJ.JPG

   Some web site coder is gonna get fired by Murdoch for jumping the gun I suspect.

   Posted 3 years ago #         

3. beachdrivegirl
   Member Profile

   

   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/26/ex-adviser-mccain-blinked_n_129611.html
   more n Ken's post

   Posted 3 years ago #         

4. CountingCoup
   Member Profile

   

   Wow, amazing. I guess in this case even one of the canidates wants to make this Presidential Debate a sitcom reality show...

   If McCain is willing to make himself look like fool before the moderators could give him a pass, I guess I shouldn't worry about the tone, candor, and legitimacy of the questions for this evening.

   Obama wins by default! (the art of winning a debate without debating)

   Posted 3 years ago #         

5. mellaw6565
   Member Profile

   

   In my civics and government classes, I ask my students to focus on several things when watching a debate, including:
   - topics discussed
   - Demeanor/Dress/Debate Style
   - sufficient support for arguments/positions
   - What's NOT said or discussed
   - moderator's tone and questions - is there a bias one way or another? Did they spoonfeed or ask the tough questions? Did they pursue or allow clarifications?

   There are so many ways that a candidate can LOSE or WIN a debate - it's like a scorecard at the end of the evening.

   Posted 3 years ago #         

6. CountingCoup
   Member Profile

   

   Thats a great breakdown mellaw6565. It would be interesting to see your take on tonights debate.

   Posted 3 years ago #         

7. mellaw6565
   Member Profile

   

   I'm going to be showing it to my kids next week in US History class - It will be interesting to see what they say as well. I find more and more that the kids call it right every time - they're not as cynical as adults and read body language better I think.

   Posted 3 years ago #         

8. mellaw6565
   Member Profile

   

   CC - I teach debate as well, and it's pretty obvious already who the better debater is - but it's not everything as my checklist suggests.

   Posted 3 years ago #         

9. CountingCoup
   Member Profile

   

   Mellaw6565,

   I just want to applaud you and your class on engaging the subject of debate. It's good to know that kids today are getting an education to simply look beyond the surface of issues and events.

   I know the debate classes I took over 35 years ago certainly shaped my own current views to understand there are many layers of fact, fiction, and a multitude of opinions behind the most simple of issues. I also to this day thank my teacher in facilitating our debate classes.

   Cheers to you and your students, they definitely are our future...

   Posted 3 years ago #         

10. mellaw6565
    Member Profile

    

    I work with offenders and drop-out prevention, and yes, they are our future too. Many of them just need someone to believe in them and treat them with respect - they appreciate it when I tell them that their opinions are worthy, even when someone disagrees.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

11. mellaw6565
    Member Profile

    

    Oh and thanks CC for the kudos:)

    Posted 3 years ago #         

12. Zenguy
    Member Profile

    

    An estimated 100,000,000 will watch the debate tonight and that is heartening to me. Hopefully this will counteract the 30 second commercials that so many seem to base their decisions on.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

13. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Of course, in some respects counter-culture can see directly through the fluff of pop culture.

    Along with respect and support, opening the door of opportunity to those who know little about them can be a challenge also.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

14. mellaw6565
    Member Profile

    

    Yes CC - so true! Which is why it is even more important for them to understand their government and their rights (and responsibilities as a fellow citizen).

    Posted 3 years ago #         

15. mellaw6565
    Member Profile

    

    Zen - That's sad! Only 100,000 out of 300 million! Oh I forgot - it's Friday night. They must be at the bars!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

16. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    I believe without a doubt (based on facts that I understand) that Obama answers are far more accurate and truer to the facts as they are stated and recorded.

    That said, unfortunately there is an aspect of debate which is manipulation, and McCain is an expert in this area.

    Think of Obama's statements with the McCain debate tactics.

    If Obama stated prior to making a point; "this is an area I know alot about", or "McCain doesn't seem to understand etc..." he would have been perceived of having a stronger debate.

    Debates are about how we interpret what he have heard and/or seen. I guess it's your own style of interpretation of what you hear to the that filled with rhetoric.

    IMO I know Obama had the facts, and McCain was grasping with attacks and mis-information in almost every topic, but he did it with conviction and bolster he may have bluffed those unwilling to check his facts...

    All I can say, is check McCain's true record.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

17. add
    Member Profile

    CC - you touched on the point that bothered me the most. I actually thought it was a good debate, but it really bugged me that McCain said "Sen Obama doesn't understand that..." about 12 times. I was really wishing Obama would have, at one point, said something like, "actually, I do understand, quite clearly. I have a different idea about how to handle...".

    Posted 3 years ago #         

18. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Exactly add, Obama's strength at bringing people together is his weakness in distiguishing the difference between two points of an issue.

    You can only hope that Obama gets a little coaching from Joe Biden on how to sharpen his blade. Obama cannot depend on the news media to be the attack dog against the McCain mis-facts...

    A majority of Americans will not fact check McCain against what he stated.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

19. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Obama cannot depend on Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow and the Jones Network/Air America (radio) to ensure the fact checks against McCain happen.

    He cannot depend on his ads, he needs to call McCain out for his lies and distortion of the fact including his supposed experience.

    (example: McCain's visits to Iran were in the green zone with exception to a market walk where he wore a bullet proof vest and with military attack helicopters hovering overhead in a military cleared zone prior to the photo op.

    That is not visiting true Iraq ~ Please....

    Posted 3 years ago #         

20. Zenguy
    Member Profile

    

    Mellaw that was 100 million, a third of the country. More than will probably vote.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

21. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Regardless of the banter after the debates, I just wanted to say that I believed Jim Leyher did a good job of allowing the canidates to engage and he didn't try to steal the show...

    He also injected the ecomomic questions and allowed the canidates to move it toward the intended goal of foreign affairs.

    Good on Jim for that IMO...

    My hope can be the rest of the debates are run as well as this one was...

    Posted 3 years ago #         

22. HunterG
    Member Profile

    

    Obama has to stop saying "John is absolutely right."

    My lord.

    There is being diplomatic, but come on this is ridiculous.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

23. add
    Member Profile

    HunterG, I agree. At first he was being what would be considererd "normal" and respectful - agreeing on principle and then adding his nuances. But of course it will be spin (and already has been - apparently the McCain campaign already has an ad out with clips from the debate). But then I realized that McCain didn't make eye contact when shaking hands with Obama either before or after the debate, so he really doesn't deserve that kind of respect if he isn't willing to offer it up either

    Posted 3 years ago #         

24. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Agreed, his character for being a peace-maker, a person that seeks a partisan resolution doesn't fair well in a debate.

    I am also reflecting on his debates with Senator Clinton...

    I wish he would attack a little more, especially against McCain who is a Prime target of flip flopping and policies like military aggression rather than diplomacy or lobbyist finacial support rather than social reform on issues (health, infrastructure, education, energy), Obama counter punches when he could easily attack with documented facts.

    That said, I think his fact were more truthful and his demeaner more presidental.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

25. ellenater
    Member Profile

    

    I agree. Obama came out of the gate strong and then went back to the stable. SO sorry for the bad analogy. But McCain was pretty transparent in his attacks, as well as condescending.

    I was disappointed that foreign relations were discussed more than issues at home. I did feel Obama was stronger on those that were discussed. McCain didn't even mention helping people or healthcare, except to say that people want choices about their doctors. No, people want choices about GETTING to go to the doctor!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

26. RainyDay1235
    Member Profile

    

    Each debate has a topic. Tonight's was foreign policy and national security. I believe this is the rest of the schedule:

    October 2, 2008: Vice Presidential debate, Washington University, St. Louis, MO

    October 7, 2008: Presidential debate in a town hall format (no set topic), Belmont University, Nashville, TN

    October 15, 2008: Presidential debate with domestic policy focus, Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY

    Posted 3 years ago #         

27. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Exactly ellenater, as we dissect the debate I think it will be apparent who was the real winner.

    I just hope these types of discussions are occurring in those states that are defined the heartland of America.

    In many respects here in the NW we are preaching to the crowd.

    BTW that is one of the reasons why I live here and particularly in West Seattle!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

28. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks Rainy Day, I am almost tentative about that Vice Pres debate after seeing clips of the Katie Couric interview but what the hey, its all about selecting a VP...

    Posted 3 years ago #         

29. RainyDay1235
    Member Profile

    

    My mostly-biased thoughts....

    * McCain appeared very disrespectful right from the handshake - reluctant to address Obama directly, look him in the eye etc.
    * Of course they are going to agree on some points, but yes - Obama said "John, you're right" way too much, esp. since McCain never gave him that in return.
    * McCain - poor choice of tie, and too pale
    * McCain sounds just like Bush when he laughs
    * Obama was not clear enough on his initial position on the Russian invasion of Georgia
    * McCain was holding onto that 'old' pen way too tight (old?)
    * McCain said 'Ms. Congeniality' and 'fundamental' way too much
    * Obama lowered his head to listen and concentrate and listen when he could have been making more eye contact with the camera
    * McCain came across as too old
    * Obama did not come across as too young

    Overall, good debate. I feel Obama came out far ahead (and fact-checking seems to show Obama was more correct in his)....And this was McCain's strong area?

    Posted 3 years ago #         

30. HunterG
    Member Profile

    

    Looking forward to the next debate, I'm sure Obama's people are all over him about the "John is right." comments.

    ----------------------------------------------

    I thought the audience response meter was interesting. Isn't it funny that when McCain even came on screen those "lines" dropped, and tanked when he spoke?

    The fact that John McCain didn't outright win this evenings debate, which was focused on one of his "specialties", Forgien Policy, won't prove well for him.

    Can't wait to see Joe Biden tear apart Sarah, that will be great.

    Edited to add a response/addition to RainyDay's last post.

    *McCain stuck out his tounge like a snake too much when sucking up all his extra saliva.

    Sorry, couldn't resist - we can't be serious ALL the time :.)

    Posted 3 years ago #         

31. RainyDay1235
    Member Profile

    

    * I think Obama must have won $100 bet from Joe Biden by working in the word "orgy" LOL

    Posted 3 years ago #         

32. mellaw6565
    Member Profile

    

    I agree with most of the assessments so far. I also thought Obama looked a little pale and sweaty vs. earlier Democratic debates.

    I also thought Obama was too diplomatic and McCain was too condescending. Obama needs to beef up his "slam dunk" moments. One of the best tonight was the "why use a hatchet when what you need is a scalpel" remark.

    Still, I'm disappointed that I didn't hear a lot of substance from either of them tonight, despite Lehrer's attempts to pin them down - especially when he asked them what they would cut next year as part of the bailout plan. They both skirted the issue several times.

    Obama's steadfastness on doing a surgical strike in Pakistan if Osama Bin Laden turns up is the right approach, IMO, given Pakistan's unwillingness/inability to stem the rise of extremism in the area. McCain made a couple of clear historical mistakes in talking about Musharaf's rise to power. It was clear he didn't know much of their history.

    Zen - you're right about the 100 million - I glanced at the number too quick! That's why I teach LA and Social Studies:) LOL

    Posted 3 years ago #         

33. HunterG
    Member Profile

    

    RainyDay - Oh my god! I am laughing so hard right now!!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

34. cruiser
    Member Profile

    

    Very sedate compared the election debates we had back home. Obama needs to grow a pair and take it to McCain,get him angry and make him throw a wobbly:)

    Posted 3 years ago #         

35. Magpie
    Member Profile

    

    I thought McCain was pretty condescending. I also found it interesting how he inferred many times that Obama lacked experience. Huh? I thought that was pretty risky considering who his running mate is. Then I thought, maybe that old line is all that he can remember..I think if I were Obama, I would call Colbert and Stewart and ask them if their writers could come up with some effective one liners..and then figure out how to incorporate them.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

36. grr
    Member Profile

    It bugs me that Obama doesn't get the concept that if you CUT taxes on business, it encourages business growth. I don't know anyone that's ever gotten a job from a poor person. Lord knows MY business would grow faster if I didn't shell out so much tax $$.
    -
    It also amazes me the Huckabee was the ONLY candidate running that understood how great the FairTax.org plan is. Too bad he was a right-wing bible-thumping bonehead.
    -
    I still stand by my main tenants of how to fix our country's mess (and I'm still voting for Obama).
    -
    three easy steps:

    1) ELIMINATE the Capital Gains Tax COMPLETELY.

    2) Cut corporate taxes DRASTICALLY (nobody ever gets hired by a poor person). Rich people start and build companies and CREATE JOBS). Employed people PAY TAXES. (mostly).

    3) Govt Mandate that ALL mortgage companies/banks, etc., offer a ONE-TIME Refinance for anyone that wants it. 4.5-5% fixed, 30-40 year. NO POINTS, NO CLOSING COSTS, NO REALTOR BS FEES..
    - Let some of that 700 BIL that the govt seemed to be able to pull out of their ass COVER whatever loss their MIGHT be for people who's mortgages are upside down.
    -
    and yes..I like Obama. Not to thrilled with Biden tho...I'm fed up with old white guys with bad comb-overs running this country.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

37. GenHillOne
    Member Profile

    I think I've a little fried and still digesting, but why isn't any of the media talking about McCain's utterance of "horsesh*t" twice during Obama's mention of his Spain gaffe? (4:30 mark)
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26909249#26909711

    Posted 3 years ago #         

38. GenHillOne
    Member Profile

    Well, there are some arguments now that McCain was saying "course not" - so, okay maybe, it was muffled. So if we go with that, was he saying "course not" to the fact that he said he wouldn't meet with Spain, that country in South America? Whatever you say, John.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

39. CountingCoup
    Member Profile

    

    In the case of McCain making any statements about SPAIN, he would have been better off saying nothing.

    I listened to the questions posed to McCain several times by the reporter in Miami who had a Spanish speaking accent.

    And I could not help but conclude that McCain believed she (reporter) when asking if McCain would meet Spain's Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, he immediately thought Zapatero was a leader in our Latin countries.

    In fact McCain started talking about Latin America immediately. When she corrected him into the side of the world, and that she was asking about a meeting with Spain, he seemed dumbfounded.

    The stance his campaign in trying to cover up for a Homer Simpson "doh" moment was that McCain is not guaranteeing a meeting with the NATO Ally Spain.

    I guess his campaign thinks that is the lesser of two decision based on a huge gaffe of his broad generalization that if you speak Spanish you must be from Latin America.

    Now that was a classic Bush moment!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

40. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    I sit here pondering last night's debate, and no matter how I feel about the outcome, it's interesting to flip between CNN, MSNBC, and Fox to hear all the different takes on it...at times thinking if we were listening to the same thing. If the news people are doing that, then the public must be, too.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

41. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    How can we expect McCain to participate in a foreign policy discussion with leaders that we aren't fond of (but share this planet with) if he can't make eye contact with a man who, just like him, wants the best for this country?! It was overtly disrespectful and cowardly! You can say a lot of unfounded and ridiculous things when you don't have to look your opponent in the face - and that's just about what I saw.

    Does anyone else wish that there could be a FactCheck.com station with closed captioning that was available in real time with picture-in-picture? I would love that. There was a lot of "nuh-uh" "yeah-huh" "nuh-uh!" "yeah-huh!"ing going on.

    Who the hell did the makeup by the way? Chris Matthews actually looked decent on MSNBC and it was McCain and Obama that looked like a mortician had their way with them.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

42. add
    Member Profile

    Cait - re: the factcheck.com station idea. I kept thinking they should have a feature like "phone a friend" on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire to check things out. Like when they kept arguing about what Petreus or Kissinger said - I wanted Jim Lehrer to say, "well, let's just give him a call and find out exactly what it is he DID say!".

    Posted 3 years ago #         

43. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    add - an excellent idea! Live feed!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

44. add
    Member Profile

    Funny, on SNL last night Amy Poehler & Tina Fey did a sketch on the Palin interview with Katie Couric - Fey/Palin asked if she could phone a friend to answer one of the questions!

    Posted 3 years ago #         

45. grr
    Member Profile

    Tina Fey is BRILLIANT as Palin. Hysterical.

    Posted 3 years ago #         

46. WSMom
    Member Profile

    

    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html

    Fact checking the debate

    Posted 3 years ago #         

47. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    another perspective..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/opinion/28dowd.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

    Posted 3 years ago #         

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.