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(91 posts)

NRA ideas


  1. so, how does everyone feel about the statement by the NRA earlier today that we should have armed police in all schools in the US? I took not that the person making the statement this morning was a LOBBYIST. That says volumes to me.... Basically , he said the way to fight bad guys with guns is to give guns to the good guys. While we're at it, how do you feel abut teachers carrying on their persons during the school day?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. Arming teachers? Never.

    Arming trained guards? Absolutely.

    Think 9-11. We don't arm the pilots, we arm the flight marshalls.

    Question(s):

    1) What's the difference between arming a air marshall and arming a trained security guard at a school?

    2) Do you think there is a "chance" that 26 would not have died last week had a trained, armed guard been on duty?

    3) Had the gunman known that there was a trained, armed guard on duty would he have even tried to enter in the first place?

    How people can laugh at an idea to protect children is beyond me (not you Jan, but other places on the interwebs).

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. As I said in another thread, this idea is insane. Let's take a look at your questions.

    1) before we even talk about outfitting schools with "trained" armed guards I'd like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America)and where you think that money will come from. Remember, this includes salary, benefits, training, arms and ammo, multiple guards for larger sites, etc.

    2)I'm not going to bother listing the mass shootings that had armed guards on the premises that failed to stop the violence (use your google machine) but one that pops out is Columbine. Another instance of armed guards on the scene- The Empire State building shootings in which most of the gun injuries on bystanders were inflicted by the police-probably the most highly "trained" armed guards you could find.

    3) The gunman was nuts.He didn't care about any armed guards. He killed himself. Most of these guys do. Your question is ridiculous.

    Nobody's laughing at this idea.It's not a serious suggestion. It's a fantasy of gun sales lobbyists like LaPierre and people that think life is like a comic book or a movie where the good guys always shoot straight and the bad guys' gun jams.

    Plus, this idea comes from the same nuts that think Obama is coming to take their guns and hate "big government" while their proposal is the most radical big gov't police state idea to ever come down the pike. C'mon, man, think it thru.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. Smitty..

    so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?

    as one of the generation of duck and cover kids
    i can tell you that continually reinforcing fear in children isn't good for their mental health...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. "so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?"

    No. But, I don't mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?

    "I'd like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America"

    Sounds like a stimulus package to me. I thought liberals loved stimulus?

    "I'm not going to bother listing the mass shootings that had armed guards on the premises that failed to stop the violence"

    I bet there are more that the google machine could list that DIDN'T have armed guards.

    "The gunman was nuts.He didn't care about any armed guards. He killed himself. Most of these guys do. Your question is ridiculous."

    1<26

    Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. realvalueremodeler
    Member Profile

    realvalueremodeler

    How about something truly revolutionary: arming the students and teachers with a peace generating technology, time tested and scientifically verified?

    Watch how its working in San Francisco schools:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-UnzmbdUM

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. "I'd like to know what you think it will cost (there are 98,000 schools in America"

    Sounds like a stimulus package to me. I thought liberals loved stimulus?...

    ...Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?

    So that's your idea of answering a question directly? Did you address the question (how much will it cost?) at all? No, you made a snarky comment and jab at "liberals". And then criticize people for not answering your questions. No wonder its tough to have an intelligent conversation around here these days.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. You first.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. "so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?"

    "No. But, I don't mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?"

    These two things (armed guards on planes, armed guards in public schools) have nothing to do with each other, are non-sequiters, and are only introduced to cloud the argument, not to clear anything up.

    your questions 2 & 3- according to the evidence we have, presence of armed guards at schools have usually not stopped lethal violence and, according to evidence we have, the chance of the insane shooter altering his behavior because of the presence of armed guards is highly unlikely since this guy, like many others of his ilk, took his own life. He was not afraid of being shot. Do you have any evidence to present to dispute those conclusions? Got anything besides snark and obfuscation?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. one word...Lakewood...4 highly trained armed police person, one perpetrator...4 dead highly trained armed police, one live perpetrator (that day).

    The NRA lobbyists didn't say security guards...he was talking about armed police. Now, consider this...there are already armed police, state patrol in various cities in WA...Ellensburg, Renton, and a few others. Mostly the districts that do this say it's difficult to find the money in the budget to support them, and they will be dropped...

    Smitty, we're talking kids in a school here, with someone who is armed, in uniform. On a plane? No uniform, anonymous., mostly adults flying. Apple, oranges.

    Do I have the answers? No... but fighting the problem with yet more guns just doesn't seem right to me...it's the ultimate police state..be careful what you wish for.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Armed air marshalls and armed guards in school are EXACTLY the same thing. Unless and until we can magically make all guns disappear, the best way to fight fire, is with..........fire.

    Not arming teachers. Not arming students. Arming a trained security guard. Would that make things less safe? How so? Please explain.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. So, the first person the unstable person, hell-bent on killing kids and adults will take out, is the security guard...

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. anonyme
    Member Profile

    Mike hit the nail on the head. These types of killings are very well planned. Not only would it not be that difficult to take out one cop or security guard, but that would add one more gun to their arsenal. Arming teachers is even more ludicrous, for the same reason. The idea that gun violence can be avoided with more guns is absolutely ludicrous.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. "Arming a trained security guard. Would that make things less safe?"

    You still can't address what it would take to make this fantasy/comic book idea actually happen. How much will it cost? You say "a" trained security guard. How many guards per school? There are 98,000 schools in America. 98,000. Some of these schools have 1, 2, or 3000 students.

    If you can't describe some way in which this "security guard (s) in every school" can realistically be implemented you're just blowing smoke.

    "Do people ever answer questions anymore (like I just did) or do they constantly deflect?"

    Your turn.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    I just don't understand why we aren't teaching gun safety in schools. All kids should be issued a .22 caliber rifle starting in 5th grade. By senior year, there should be concealed weapons permits issued with diplomas. Nothing says, "Good job, son. We love you!" like a AR 15 for graduation. Now THAT'S stimulus.

    Just think, there would be dozens of weapons of all types in schools around America with plenty of ammo to take out a small contingent of psycho-killers.

    Problem solved. You're welcome.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Psycho Killer
    Qu'est-ce que c'est
    fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
    Run run run run run run run away
    Psycho Killer
    Qu'est-ce que c'est
    fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
    Run run run run run run run away

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. Columbine had guards. Virginia Tech had its own police force. Ft Hood was a military base filled with gun toting soldiers.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    i heard this insane idea would cost $5,000,000,000.

    does a hunter need a Uzi sub-machine gun to hunt Bambi? i think not.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. We can't even afford enough teachers and librarians, and some people propose adding a security guard in every school? That's patently insane and unworkable.

    The problem isn't just protecting children in schools. It's protecting them (and everyone else) in public and at home. Yes, tighter guns and fewer options for gun owners are not the sole solutions. We need to address mental health, both for the mentally unstable and for the rest of us, which we aren't doing, at least very well. But tighter gun restrictions and controls have to be a part of the solution.

    For your reading pleasure. I promise you'll want a stiff drink after reading this depressing report:

    http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.html

    Here are some highlights:

    * More children and teens died from gunfire in 2008 and 2009 — 5,750 — than the number of U.S. military personnel killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    *The total number of preschool-age children killed by guns in the years studied — 173 —was nearly double the number of law-enforcement officers — 89 — killed in the line of duty.
    *African-American children and teens represented 45 percent of all guns deaths in their age group in 2008 and 2009, but only 15 percent of the total U.S. population of children.
    *The top cause of death for black teens ages 15 to 19 was gun homicide, while for white teens it was motor vehicle accidents followed by gun homicides.

    And if the other stats aren't bad enough, consider this one:

    *Among 23 high-income countries in the world scholars have studied, the United States is home to 80 percent of all gun deaths, and 87 percent of all gun deaths of children younger than 15.

    Still think we shouldn't cut down on the number of guns in US society?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. realvalueremodeler
    Member Profile

    realvalueremodeler

    I'm sorry, but would somebody take 5 minutes to view the video I posted in thread 6. Y'all seem to be stuck on accepting that we have to settle for managing the pervasive darkness in the world. How about considering evidence that a light source is available and it is as effective as turning on a light switch. Like we hear from the school superintendent in the video, "the data don't lie".

    Turn on just a couple of lights and watch the cockroaches (violence, disease, suffering) scatter.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. I watched your video. It's a nice infomercial for Transcendental Meditation™ (don't forget the ™) but it has little to do with this discussion of mass murder,proliferation of military style weapons, and the NRAs sick and twisted viewpoint of same.

    One of the lights that needs to come on is the one shining on a sane and rational national firearms policy. That's what the subject is.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. waynster
    Member Profile

    waynster

    If we go along with what the NRA and the hard core gun nuts are saying we might as well arm the pre-schoolers with AK's and AR's that way they can learn to become snipers and school swat team members. Who would think a cute 4 to 5 year old would be packing......lets get real assault weapons are designed to do one thing that's to kill.. not deer or elk just people the military didn't have theses weapons designed for them to hunt animals now did they........ ...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. Just think, there would be dozens of weapons of all types in schools around America with plenty of ammo to take out a small contingent of psycho-killers."

    Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Columbine had guards. Virginia Tech had its own police force. Ft Hood was a military base filled with gun toting soldiers."

    The guard at Columbine exchanged gunfire with one of the gunman and started the evacuation. He got the gunman to fire at him rather than more kids. Now, he missed him when he shot at him, but drew fire away and sounded the evacuation. Sounds pretty darn good to me.

    Th Ft Hood shooter was *shot* and paralyzed.

    Virginia Tech is a HUGE campus unlike a grade, middle or high school. Tough to defend.

    "does a hunter need a Uzi sub-machine gun to hunt Bambi? i think not."

    No. But banning them today will not make them magically disappear from the streets will it?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. smitty

    ""so.. you want to send your kids to school under armed guard?"

    No. But, I don't mind flying on a plane with one. Do you?"

    i hate to burst your bubble.. but most of the time that armed guard you think is flying on the plane with you doesn't exist.

    yup... it's all random

    as hubby learned when he took everything off that could trigger the alarm at security check and sailed through the monitors only to be pulled aside and wait while his belongings were rifled and they wanded and patted down every part of his body because he was lucky enough to pull the random check card.

    all in the name of making America safer.

    Columbine had an armed guard.
    Virgina tech had it's own police force.

    providing the illusion of security doesn't prevent terrorism.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. waynster
    Member Profile

    waynster

    No smitty it wouldn't...It would however prevent future killings and heavily regulating future sales from gun shows and privet unregulated sells on those who own them now would slow down the slaughter of the innocent and may end it in years to come.......

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. Smitty

    "The guard at Columbine exchanged gunfire with one of the gunman and started the evacuation. He got the gunman to fire at him rather than more kids. Now, he missed him when he shot at him, but drew fire away and sounded the evacuation. Sounds pretty darn good to me.

    Th Ft Hood shooter was *shot* and paralyzed.

    Virginia Tech is a HUGE campus unlike a grade, middle or high school. Tough to defend."

    and all is right with the world because someone shot back?

    my kid was at Virginia Tech and would have likely been one of those in the crosshairs that day if she hadn't decided she needed a little extra sleep that morning.
    Many of her classmates weren't so lucky.

    I could go into a detailed analysis of what went right and what went wrong at Virginia Tech that day because what happened there came close enough to me to make it my business... but i won't.

    what i will say is that your glib "Virginia Tech is a HUGE campus unlike a grade, middle or high school. Tough to defend" doesn't even begin to do that subject justice.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. "i hate to burst your bubble.. but most of the time that armed guard you think is flying on the plane with you doesn't exist."

    Yes, I know that. But the point is he/she "might" be onboard. I suppose you could do the same thing at schools, a mystery rotation so gunman have no idea if they are on duty or not. But, putting one at every school is a far less logistical problem then one on every flight.

    "Columbine had an armed guard."

    Who drew fire from the gunman and called for the evacuation. Yes, he shot and missed, but god knows how many more kids would have been killed had he not been the target for those precious minutes. How is that not a success?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. Smitty..

    if you know that
    don't you think terrorists do too?

    our privacy has been invaded..
    our freedom of movement curtailed
    we now regularly accept harassment from minimum wage workers in a uniform that we wouldn't tolerate from our city's well trained policeforce as the price we pay for being able to travel

    and we are no safer.

    And you would like to replicate that for your kids?

    Not a good plan.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. What Dobro said... "Plus, this idea comes from the same nuts that think Obama is coming to take their guns and hate "big government" while their proposal is the most radical big gov't police state idea to ever come down the pike."

    Clearly the NRA best represents gun manufacturers and only gives a rip about selling more guns - period! They'd love it if the gov't bought more guns and sent armed personnel into the more than 90,000 schools in America. Then they could promote how the gov't is too big and regular folks need to stockpile more guns to protect themselves against big gov't. It's all about capitalism folks.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. I used to think the NRA was a mouthpiece for gun manufacturers, now I consider it a terrorist organization.

    Anyone who pays into this cabal of evil is birds of the feather.

    If the desire to blow stuff up is so strong in you that blowing little kids up is merely collateral damage, you need a psychiatrist.

    Just like the shooters.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. So, is it the idea that bothers you or just the fact that the NRA proposed it?

    Let me here your reasons why putting an armed guard in every school is a bad idea. I explained above how it is similar to air marshalls and how the armed guard at Columbine drew fire away from kids and called for the evacuation precious minutes before police arrived.

    I am not saying it is the only answer - but tell me why, as a stand alone idea, it is bad.

    Waste of money? Won't work? Is a stand-in ploy for real fixes?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. "if you know that don't you think terrorists do too?"

    What am I missing? The point is that nobody knows which flight has an air marshall therefore they all might have one. It's a deterrent.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. Smitty

    if the basic concept of deterrent worked,
    do you think our prisons would be so full?

    you suspend reason and up the ante for consequences
    and expect different results?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. Smitty..

    i am not playing the game where you set the agenda and the questions and then demand answers you have no intention of actually responding to

    the reasons that people think putting armed guards in schools have already been cited and ignored by you

    it's time for a little critical reasoning

    we have more private ownership of guns than pretty much the rest of the world combined
    we have no political insurrection on our streets yet we have more kids killed by guns in the United States than soldiers killed in one of our war zones last year.

    it is more dangerous for our kids to be in our homes and public space than it is for our soldiers to be deployed to a war zone

    do you think there might be a correlation between the number of guns and the number of deaths by guns?

    or a correlation between the availability of guns and the suicide rates in the military and in comparable age groups in the United States?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. From our friends at FactCheck.Org:

    http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. "if the basic concept of deterrent worked,
    do you think our prisons would be so full?"

    So now we're talking about prisons?

    Stay on issue, JoB.........

    Smitty's view:

    Trained, armed guards in school > No armed guards in school.

    Do you agree?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. "Let me here your reasons why putting an armed guard in every school is a bad idea."

    Still waiting for your estimate of how much it will cost to outfit 98000 schools with these guards, their equipment, training, etc.and where the money will come from. I'm sure you won't want to add it to our awesome deficit. This is the question you're busy deflecting.

    And since you clearly answered "No" when asked if you'd like your kids going to school under armed guard, what's you're reason for thinking its a bad idea?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. Putting cops in every school is no idea, at all.

    It's preposterous, deserves no consideration. Defending it is mental diarrhea.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. Putting cops in every school is no idea, at all.

    It's preposterous, deserves no consideration. Defending it is mental diarrhea."

    Good answer.

    Tell that to this little girl.....
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019957518_nrareax22m.html

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. dobro,

    I have no idea, but how much is a child's life worth? Somebody threw out 5 billion. What's that? Ten Solyndra's or one B-1 bomber per year? Fine. Add it to my property tax bill - as long as it keeps kids safe.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. Safety is not the issue, the issue is impotence and the desire to get a big one to replace one's shortcomings, pun intended.

    Masterbate instead, fewer people are put at risk.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. NBC news went to one of the gun orgies in Texas after the Newtown gun rape to ask about gun control.

    Of course, there was some dimwit with a semi-automatic defending his right to hunt.

    Using a weapon that fires more than two shots in succession is not hunting, it's animal massacre.

    I once knew a real hunter, he used bow and arrow. And he made the bows and arrows himself.

    That's hunting.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. Smitty

    "Stay on issue, JoB........."

    Smitty..you made deterrant an issue...
    own it dude

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. "Fine. Add it to my property tax bill..."

    So, by giving this non-answer, you're actually acknowledging that this isn't a realistic idea that might help avert future tragedies, but a fantasy trope that merely diverts attention from people offering some ideas that could really be implemented.

    Do you have any thoughts on, for instance, the six points that NYC mayor Bloomberg offered in an oped in USA Today? I summarized it in the other gun control thread.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. rw

    stats on guns/violence don't really answer the question of why anyone would think owning an assault weapon with access to unlimited ammunition is a good thing for anyone, do they?

    the gun used in the latest massacre is America's best selling gun

    it's not used for hunting food

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. o, by giving this non-answer, you're actually acknowledging that this isn't a realistic idea that might help avert future tragedies,"

    Ummmm no.

    I think it would work. And, I provided a local example of where it did. I also showed where the Columbine guard drew fire away from kids and called for an evacuation quicker than would have been accomplished otherwise.

    You guys continually deflect.

    One more time and then I am done.

    Would putting trained armed security guards in schools make them safer? Yes or no?

    Please, no references to cost, or masturbating or prisons or hunting with bows and arrows.

    Yes or no?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. oh, please...the answer to gun violence is not more guns. No one wants to take away your guns, or your right to have them. But the socalled "assault rifles" have no place in our society, period. What does one want to do with them? Hunt rabbits? Hunt deer? There'd be nothing left of the animals. Hunt people? Bingo!

    Smitty...you have kids? This is a terrible thing to say, but...sit and imagine the destruction to those little bodies after absorbing 11 shots from an assault rifle.It is devastating. It's not white washed like on the TeeVee. Now envision that happening to your child.

    School districts across the nation already have SRO's, and can't afford them any more. Volunteers? Hahahahaha! No matter what background checks, and training you give people, trigger happy volunteers will...um..volunteer...and we can really trust that? And after schools, where do we go? Grocery stores? Shopping malls? Police state? From the people who want smaller government? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

    In answer to your first question...NO! It will not make them safer, in my opinion. How many armed security guards...one? How about in a school with 2-3,000 kids? Two? Three? How many would make it safe? And, yes, the cost has to come into consideration. You can't dance around it. Masturbation - mocking people on here gets you nowhere. If you want serious answers to serious questions, leave the other stuff out. You get what you give.
    Merry Christmas!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. "Please, no references to cost..."

    In other words, no references to reality.

    Would banning the sale of assault weapons, high capacity clips and drums, requiring background checks in all gun sales, stiffening legal penalties for gun crimes, illegal gun sales and smuggling, make our schools (and society in general) safer?

    Yes or no?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. Yes!

    See how easy that is?

    Your turn.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. The Times article Smitty cites above in #39 ("School cops helpful but costly") convinces me that having a cop or a beefy security guy on school grounds would be a good thing. It does not convince me that the only thing that will stop a school attack is a gun. Far from it.

    In the case cited in the article, a 17-year-old attacker dropped his knives when a cop confronted him. Yes, the cop was pointing a gun . . . but the attacker was just a kid, like Adam Lanza. He probably would've surrendered to the cop anyway. And if he didn't, the cop could still have rushed him with a billy club or chair.

    Richard Reid ("Shoe Bomber") was wrestled to the floor by unarmed passengers.

    Two muscular and VERY DETERMINED knife-wielding terrorists on United 93 were overpowered by unarmed passengers.

    In spite of what the NRA would have us believe, guns do not impart super powers to ordinary mortals. Yes, they do give a marginal advantage in the hands of a trained defender, but at the same time they add an extra element of lethality to most attack/defense scenarios.

    Even cops will tell you this. That's why they're supposed to use non-lethal methods whenever possible. Which is most of the time.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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