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1. HMC Rich
   Member Profile

   

   Please read this link. In this forum each side tries to convince the other of the flaws of the opposition. Here is an article that takes issue with some inherent problems we the people face.

   It first shows certain Democratic Party issues that hinder us. Yes there are some macro race issues broached. Then it attacks certain Republicans like Newt, and Corporate America. (I know, when it attacks the people we like it sucks). But to be fair you have to read all of it.

   I do believe this article will tick off at some point left right and middle. It is a long but good read. I do not expect people to agree with everything and some of you three quarters, but use if as food for thought.

   http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pub/reports/201112PSI_issue.html

   Making Private and Public officers personally accountable to pay back funds would solve a lot.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

2. kootchman
   Member Profile

   Nothing feeds the illusion of well being then carrying wheelbarrows of cash to buy a loaf of bread. Yet you ask any American citizen what inflation did to the Weimar Republic and the shocking parallels to ourselves... well, you will get no response...this is a country where our high school teachers let alone their students will look with a vacuous stare on the subject . In desperation, the German people looked to a political orthodoxy, a submission to the political state to solve all their problems. The "new liberalism" broke the German state, an the modern facist state was born. HMC... nothing is new... deficits, borrowing, printing money with no collateral...and of course..the state as the only recourse for entitlements. History does repeat itself. See the Dawes plan..and damned if we aren' doing it again..buying European assets and loaning US dollars against European bank assets. Facism or reform, the choice is that stark in 2012.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

3. JoB
   Member Profile

   HMCRich...

   i would like you to go back and read that article again...

   and when you come to the point where he explains the GNP decline in America, i would like you to look for where he mentions the decline in manufacturing in the United States.

   I can spare you the effort.. he doesn't.

   Now, when you are speaking of gross national product... that is...what we grow or make here .. don't you think the decline in manufacturing might be a factor?

   he doesn't mention it.

   Or.. when we are speaking of gross national product..
   don't you think the sheltering of funds overseas by American manufacturers might be a relevant factor?

   funny, he doesn't mention that either.

   What he does do is a really good job of data mining...
   and he is right.. you will have a tough time challenging the data he presents...
   he simply doesn't present all of the relevant factors

   all in all, exactly what you would expect from an investor adviser...

   a fine sales job.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

4. kootchman
   Member Profile

   The point of the article is GDP is a fudged number. The USA is still the largetst manufacturing entity in the world..believe it or not. However if you want to use GDP.... and apportion it to the value of all goods and services... while we have lost some manufacturing, it has been more than supplanted by the value of knowledge workers,.. information technology, etc. The Conestoga Wagon was replaced by the jet airliner for cross continental travel with far greater economic value. .. unless you built Conestoga Wagons... It happens..capital gets allocated to where it is best used. Those goods and services manufactured overseas are not counted as gross DOMESTIC product. Those are foreign earnings. It's still out out of your reach JoB..you are a New England whalers wife, walking in perpetual circles on the widow walk.waiting for you husband who is 20 years overdue....he (it) ain't coming home...it's not US earnings .it was taxed where it was produced and sold. The salaries and wages of the USA Coca Cola workers is GDP..The Cocal Cola produced in India is counted in India's GDP... minus anything that may have been produced here... and sent to India. The reason he doesn't mention either is the former is not true and the latter is totally irrelevant. Good and services are allocated to the country where that good or service was produced, or portions thereof. NOw do you see the value of recruiting highly educated, high skilled labor to work here and send goods and service there? That improves GDP... legal, desirable immigrant workers increase GDP. Illegal, illiterate, unskilled immigrants add very marginally to GDP and consume disproportionate resources.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

5. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   whatever would we do without you to interpret these articles for us. We might not see it the right way without your guidance. Thanks, Kootch :)

   Posted 4 months ago #         

6. kootchman
   Member Profile

   I know it's not "simpleton tax the rich jingoisms" that you so thrive on. But the author of the thread did suggest it was food for thought. And I did think about it. Job asked two questions and they were answered, with thought. Got some food for thought or more insecure snarkisms?

   Posted 4 months ago #         

7. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   insecure? surely you jest...Nah..I just am not willing to get into anything with someone who drinks too much kool-aid. Again..we simply disagree. You are entitled to what you believe, and I will not belittle you for it the way you belittle others on here. So, I simply won't get into the fray. But....I do pay attention :)

   Posted 4 months ago #         

8. JoB
   Member Profile

   Actually kootch..
   you didn't answer the two questions i asked..

   you threw plenty of shit on the road
   insinuating that i failed reading comprehension
   but you didn't answer my questions.

   In my most humble opinion
   if you think that the point of that article was that the way GDP is calculated is in error..
   you missed the point.

   though his point was based on what he considers errors of calculation...
   this is still a classic case of cherry picking data to make a point...
   not one of thoughtful analysis...

   in other words..
   a fine sales job

   Posted 4 months ago #         

9. HMC Rich
   Member Profile

   

   The group that did this is certainly a capitalist group. Human beings have prospered under capitalism.

   He only covered a few things. Is there anything you learned?

   Let me put it another way. Our President is asking for another debt limit hike. His predecessor did the same. If they and the congress were personally liable for cost over-runs then this would not be happening.

   JoB, what article can pick out everything. These items directly affect us.

   Government does not create wealth. It takes and hinders.

   Those inner city statistics were brutal. The war on poverty has failed in so many ways.

   And Millionaires should not get subsidized by the Government.

   Take part of this. Add your own fact checks, and put aside the BS and make those people who we elected more accountable.

   The nation for now is in decline in many areas. It galls me that our politicians have their own bank, healthcare, retirement, inside trader freedom, cronyism.

   You guys don't like the Tea Party Conservatives, and I don't like the Occupiers but each side has a point. The status quo is screwing the middle class and needs to change. If we are at the other end of each groups spectrum in views, so be it.

   I have achieved a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. I don't like to fight. But if I need to, I will defend myself, and will attempt to win. In a competition I respect my opponent. On the street I have to deter the attacker and survive. I view politics the same way. The forum is the friendly competition. The vote is the street fight.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

10. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    Human beings have prospered under capitalism.

    far more have starved.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

11. HMC Rich
    Member Profile

    

    They starved under feudalism, Oligarchies, Monarchies and communism too.

    Christianity helped define the individual and individual rights whether slave or king. Capitalism allowed the willing to work and save. Unlike the usury of certain "governments", Unlike slave driven societies, unlike medieval style governments. Even China sees what some elements of capitalism can help create wealth. Unlike North Korea, a shining example of prosperity.

    Good to "see" you Redblack.
    I hope you had a wonderful Christmas. Happy New Year!!!

    Posted 4 months ago #         

12. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    thanks, rich. happy holidays to you, too, no matter how you celebrate.

    it's true that every economic system favors those who control the system. the united states, however, has been unique since the new deal, in that we have sought to advance all of our people, regardless of heritage, upbringing, or wealth. in fact, we have institutionalized that notion.

    it seems to me, though, that the "tea party" has striven to tear apart the new deal in favor of oligarchs', plutocrats', and aristocrats' control of the entire economic system - in vain hope that the wealthy will invest enough in the american economy to keep the entire thing prosperous, while not engaging in profit-taking and narcissism.

    in terms of economic success, what i look at is the direction in which the nation's wealth is flowing. even the most staunch conservative can't deny that the wealthy have prospered while the poor and middle classes have not.

    we, the people, are indeed approaching $15 trillion in debt. the question i keep asking - for which i never get an answer - is, "who benefited from that debt and who lost?"

    if you think that the welfare queens benefited the most and that the nation is full of prosperous unemployed people who have plenty to eat and leisure time for gaming on their PS3's - and who vote democratic just so they can get free handouts - than i guess you align yourself with the "tea party."

    but if you think - as i do - that paris hilton's family has benefited more and that american college students can't afford in-state educations without garnering massive debt to corporate megabanks while corporate-sponsored immigrants get H1B visas or the first shot at taxpayer-provided education grants, then i guess you want to occupy something.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

13. JoB
    Member Profile

    redblack..

    there you go again with those essential truths..

    "the question i keep asking - for which i never get an answer - is, "who benefited from that debt and who lost?""

    all you have to do is take a look at the massive transfer of assets in this country to see the answer.

    While the rest of us have suffered through what keeps being labeled as a downturn, the rich have prospered.

    HMCRich

    first rule of politics
    follow the money

    it's a good rule when looking at financial advice too..
    an investors vested interest is in keeping his investments intact...

    what is killing our nation is benefiting those with capital to invest...

    what kind of economic advice do you think an investor is going to give you?

    The question you have to ask is whether the good of the investors trumps the good of the nation...

    Posted 4 months ago #         

14. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Here is your trajectory... Greece has published its austerity budget. 58% of that budget is going to pay interest debt. Won't build a road, feed a mouth, house the poor. We will borrow 40% of the money we spend to feed the deficits. I am starting to believe we should transfer even more wealth upstream.... at least is is preserved instead of being squandered. As to you two questions JoB... displacement of manufacturing jobs was more than compensated for by new industires, and second, you want to count as GDP that which is not GDP... to force a political point.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

15. kootchman
    Member Profile

    The mere fact there is wealth of others to fight over...and try to grab, is a testament to the value investors are to this country. First you cry they aren't investing...then when they do invest, you want to take the investment income. Which is it? When investors don't invest...you have...this economy. Enjoying it?

    Posted 4 months ago #         

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