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More politics...need opinions..

Started 8 months ago by JanS
Latest reply from kootchman

JanS
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so, what's your opinion on this? I'm curious as to what the little people are thinking....

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/pre-emptive-moves/?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=thab1

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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First of all, Jan, thank you for calling me little! :-) "Slender" would have been preferred, but I'll take whatever.

This whole scheduling fiasco seems like a tempest in a teacup to me. (So naturally the NYT had to give it a full page.)

Let's look at recent events, shall we?

A few months ago Obama bags bin Laden in an operation Cowboy George couldn't manage after eight years of being President. Then Obama announces an end to the war in Afghanistan in the face of strong criticism from the military establishment.

Oh, and did I mention how Obama had also sacked the general who was previously in charge of said war?

Now they're telling us the guy's weak?
Please, peoples!

Naive? Maybe. –Naive for trusting his enemies to act honorably.

But weak? –Nah.

****************************************************************************************

A word on the punditocracy . . .

I pay the most attention to what people themselves say and do – and much more to what they do than what they say.

I pay the least attention to what pundits say. About anything . . .

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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It was a gutsy call...tough choice given the terrible political outcome of the Iran raid ... there was a lot of political downside if the mission failed. Afghanistan is no place for us.. and neither is Libya. August was the highest casualty month since the start of the Afghan war. The men that went down the fast rope...that was the act of greatest courage.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch..
this one was off the rails..
even for sarcasm

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
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i think ezra klein nailed it:

[I]n the parlance of Washington, Boehner “won.” And perhaps he did. But the rest of us lost. If it wasn’t already clear that Republicans in congress have no intention of working with the White House on further help for the jobless, it’s plenty clear now. If it wasn’t already clear to the business community that the two parties absolutely hate each other and there is no reason to believe that Washington will be able to help the economy if what little recovery we have turns south, it’s plenty clear now.

boehner and the republicans are poking obama in the eye every chance they get. SSDD.

however, the upside of giving the address thursday is that obama won't have to contend with any republican shenanigans afterward, because there won't be time before kickoff.

the downside is that few of the people who care about football and government will remember what the president said, and will rely on the punditocracy to help them form opinions and talking points later.

as for the content of the president's address, i, for one, hope it points out that low taxes for the wealthy and free trade have not been kind to the average american worker for the past 30 years. it's time to reverse course.

Posted 8 months ago #
tom kelley
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Which general got sacked?

Posted 8 months ago #
waynster
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Lets just say pettiness on the media over a scheduling of a speech a no nothing news day. Perhaps fox needed a something small to blowout of context just so their bone headed news casters could blow smoke up our...... As for the jobs and tax cuts for corparations and the rich tie it to job growth. You build factories here you get cuts send offshore or to china you get taxed... fair trade it works as long as its made in usa hmmm now that would be diffrent apple building iphones in eastern washington instead or eastern china.........

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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a little jobs factoid.. worth reading

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/30/258388/corporate-profits-recovery/

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
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While waiting for the trickle-down, we became a nation of pee-ons.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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JoB what in the hell are you talking about.... I said.. given the history of the Iran raid... it was a gutsy call...he had history to tell him how dire a failed mission would be to his political fortunes..despite the downside he made the call...Hell, even Cheney gives it unqualified support... I then pointed out.... the fast rope was where courage was made tangible... you do KNOW a fast rope is a rappelling technique for covert units to get the hell out of the choppers in a pronto fashion without the use of harnesses and caribinars? All in response to DBP...

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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As to his upcoming "speech"... what makes it look like a political stunt... there has been no press corps reports of new blood, new advisors, anything approaching the notion he is considering new approaches to what has been dismally poor performance. No one excepts the die-hards want more debt... it is crushing us now. If he comes to the congress for more stimulus? It's a stunt. They should all walk out in the middle of the speech.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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Kman..hat the heck does that have to do with the topic at hand? Where did you pull Iran out of the hat? I don't see it mentioned in DBP's post. This is about his speech on Thursday night. I know that forum threads can go in different directions, but really...Iran? Sometimes you make no sense. Maybe I should start drinking :)

Posted 8 months ago #
MBarrettMiller
Member Profile

Some interesting remarks-
I think Obama has to go big this week or he will be swallowed in more crazy talk from the Republicans who will say and do anything to bring down his administration.
The "American" people do not respect what they perceive as weakness in a leader. Some are seeing his gentle style, intelligence and offer to work with those he disagrees with as weakness. They are wrong but that doesnt stop them-
It was a gutsy call on Carters part to authorize a rescue attempt in iran. I guess thats what the iran reference is about in the above exchanges. The rescue was a failure pointed out repeatedly by Reagan et al resulting in one of the more courageous men going down in defeat....Carter was ahead of his time and more mature in his thinking than what followed with all the jingoism and death of Americans in Lebanon etc. etc etc.
Obama is ahead of his time. We may not deserve him or his
intelligence-yet. We might have to go through some terrible times before we grow up enough to realize that to have a true "great"nation we need to care for the least of our citizens. We need to really invest, and yes, go into greater deficits until we can work our way out of it...we need jobs and a program that goes to the wall.
I hope Obama goes for the long ball. If he loses an election to any of these crazies running he will leave having tried to protect us from ourselves. We were too angry, jealous, single minded, un educated to realize what is truly in our best interests....

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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MBMiller...thanks for that..

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
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Excellent thoughts MBM.
--
Ran across this interesting op-ed about the New Republican Party's thoeligarchial War on the American People©. Perspective from a Republican congressional aide. Definitely worth a read; long and deep. Get settled in.

churchandstate.org.uk/2011/09/goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/#nh1

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Please ... he is as much a hack as any that have graced the office. His machinations of access, political payola, are straight from the rough and tumble wards of Chicago politics. You grease my wheel and I will grease yours. It's as old as the game of politics. I can live with it, to the victor go the spoils. Who has he offered to work with?. Where was this gentle, compromising, intelligent love fest the first two years? Sorry, we have seen too much of him and his administration. Incompetent is the adjective I would reach for. Will it work Thursday? No. Deficit reduction and a balanced budget are favored by over 72 pct of those likely to vote (Pew Research) If he comes up with more deficit or stimulus spending..? Been there done that. If he comes across as trying to manipulate the center and center right into looking like obstructionists..it will be a another campaign trip.. Americans are too wary of him and the empty suit, He has one shot at redemption.... tax reform.. REAL tax reform... simple, applicable to all. Not base appealing "progressive" taxation schemes and demonizing of the successful..No more utopian government solutions... big government and selective cronyism is what got us in this mess. The stakes are high though... he flubs this after calling for a joint session of Congress? He not only has to go big...he has to tell his base..we reached too far. If not we will have a Republican President. At least we will be spared the mind numbing agony of the Presidential debates.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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he doesn't have to manipulate them as obstructionists - they ARE obstructionists of the first order. Mitch McConnell said it early on that he will do whatever it takes to make this sitting president ineffective. And, frankly, he is an ass, and will do that very thing to the detriment of this country. Of course, this is just my opinion, just as the previous post is your opinion. I don't know who you talk to, but everyone that I'm hearing from no longer wants to hear about the deficit. They want congress to get the hell to work on creating jobs in this country, and then maybe we'll get back to paying our way.

Tax reform...as you see it. If it's not that way then he is a failure. And therein lies the problem...the only people the Repubs want to compromise are those in the White House. They have no intention of compromising...ever!

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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BTY redblack... those 820 union jobs that just vaporized in Everett this week?... Kimberly Clark decided not to upgrade the plant to new EPA and WA Dept of Ecology standards... and no buyers want the risk either because they have no idea of what shoe will fall next from DC. That's how jobs disappear. In uncertainty..capital investment disappears. Can't blame poor demand...cause these are commodity products, or as they say in the parlance..."necessities"..Those are your union brothers and sisters that just lost scale jobs, benefits, and healthcare. Well, since Koch bought the paper making assest of GP.... maybe they would step up to the plate... eh? Remember the thread about WA becoming too business hostile... slipping 5 places? Green is fine.. new plants should be built that way.. but like the coal industry... you can't refit the entre industrial base by EPA fiat. It's that old cost/benefit thing,, Hope Obama addresses a little bit of that in his speech...

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/swfa/industrial/pulp_kimberly.html

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Me too. I want jobs.. lots of jobs. Sending money to the federal government is not job creation. It's like the comment ya made "everyone thinks Perry is terrible" (paraphrase) yet.... he is the longest serving governor in the nation, re-elected three times.... If you are comfortable with the notion that "Americans" no longer care about deficits... I gently suggest you start talking to folk who aren't just in the "blue box" of conventional wisdom... I just got back from the "red side" of our great state.... on no... deficit spending and government waste and abuse of powers is one hell of a hot topic...and growing in intensity...even the waitress at Pilot" truck stop was raging at Obama... go figure eh?

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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Kootch...

the most effective form of debt reduction is job creation...

all of this talk about corporate fear is just a strategy to convince those who don't know any better to forgo their own best interests in return for handing corporations more of our national assets.

Posted 8 months ago #
MBarrettMiller
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Too much arguing over who is correct and smarter than the other guy...
c'mon-we have a country to save or lose...

Posted 8 months ago #
waynster
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Kootchman acording to your statements from what I see and read. You would be unhappy no matter who was sitting in the white house..... Job is right The economy is job driven with out jobs no one thrives not even the rich. You still haven't said much of what it would take to get america working again. You do alot of research...There is hope for you unlike the republican party all talk with alot of bull...t spewing out of the sides of their mouths. Perry maybe the one of the longest sitting governors he also wants to appel the 16th and 17th amendments to the constitution hates FDR's new deal era and thinks Teddy Roosevelt was a fool in fact he thinks GW was more like a liberal Mcgovern read his book its all there The message from Rick Perry's book: Repeal the 20th Century
BY JOEL CONNELLY, SEATTLEPI.COM STAFF
Published 09:56 p.m., Sunday, September 4, 2011
Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/The-message-from-Rick-Perry-s-book-Repeal-the-2153469.php#ixzz1X6HpmJ1k .
As for your truck stop sweety they are never happy on the other side of our fair state. The only thing they have more then you is they have hate in their hearts where you don't. See even us liberal minded folks have some influence on you..... lol

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Jobs do raise the boat. Herein lies the hurt locker... big government colludes with big corporations. While the economy moves faster and faster to de-centralized, autonomous, independent actions, the reflexive reaction .. at least the end result, is to try and control and direct that action. I have more faith frankly in innovation than a directed government economy. So, where is all this innovation self directed, job creating machine? Try being a small businessman and keeping up with.. fees, reporting requirements, accounting ( horrid overhead and expense.. fully 12% of my overhead now!) licenses, etc. Try getting a 100K line of secured working capital.. tell me as a small business person that as I risk and ride the business cycles, that if in one year... I make 250K...my fellow citizens think they are "fairly" entitled to 1/3 of it, Never mind the next year I may make 50K... it takes a lifetime to build a business for most of us. We do it in gradual stages. Want jobs... get the hell out of the way and stop distorting capital markets. Some one.. right now, out there ,, is mulling over the next big "thing"... he or she will find it daunting. My friends, I create, founded, three businesses.. none were easy to found or nuture.... two were sold off to more capable individuals with access to capital to grow. Carrying the cost burden of government and the cost of being regulated to obscenity is killing the rarest of breeds.. the job creating small to medium size businesses. Obama has the largest job exporter on his economic advisor board..and tax evader, GE You all have no concept of the weight to carry this regulatory, power consolidating government is like. I don't want incentives, qualifying special SBA programs with regulations and preferences...all that means is more government employees to write and administer them.. care to even guess how many deperciation schedules and classifications we have had in the last forty years? Try capital needs budgeting on those variables..every change is some lobbyist that made a horse trade. we need some breathing room. Or.... you will contend with multinationals and big government for the rest of your lives to dictate your living standards. Like it so far? Warren Buffett.... Berkshire pays no dividends... no income taxes on dividen income... he increases portfolio valuations...no income tax there until a shareholder sells his BH shares..he ousts out your 401K.. cutting a deal for BofA to make sure he is at the head of the line with a classification of preferred stock, and of course he has an Obama fund raiser in the works.. of course he wants the "rich".. the other rich ... to pay more. Then in the biggest farce in history... when he dies? All of that wealth gets transferred to the BM Gates Foundation... as far away from the IRS as it can get... untouchable. That's the type of guy that slips the wet tongue into the ear of President of the President,.But, if I wish to pass along a 2 million dollar valued family business... you all think an estate tax is "fair"... jobs come from innovation and ambition... not bigger government. We are killing the former. Would I put capital at risk today? No. I am teaching my child that wealth creation in todays economic world.. is informed speculation. Buying and selling based on information ... not investing in production... that you can do offshore.

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
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You DO know that if you make OVER a certain amount Kootch, that they tax ONLY the amount of money you make OVER that threshold? They don't suddenly say, "whoops! You made too much by $1, now ALL your earnings are going to be taxed at a higher percentage. Sorry, sucker!"
---
So you are teaching your child to be a morally vacuous monetarist. I hope they rebel against your nihilistic vision.

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
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Besides, who is to say your kid will be the right person to take your grand business vision into the future? Maybe they don't want to do whatever it is you do, or maybe you overestimate their intellectual gifts.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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I know exactly how much I pay in taxes. A small business rolls earning over into the business. As a point of fact...given all the taxes and fees... I work over half of he year to support government. You tell me where the incentive is when half your income goes to a growing and insatiable government? The distortions are horrid. The spending revenue rate is now about government spending is 25% of GDP...taxes...16%. In the Clinton era... it was I believe spending 17% of GDP and revenue 18%. Now give the left side of the aisle some credibility that revenue has dropped ... it dropped 2% percentage points. BUT spending ...spending went up .. 8% percentage points, This is the trend line. You will get tax increases... they are needed. Are you willing to accept a revenue increase of as a percentage of GDP at 11%.... ? To get back to the pre-Bush, Clinton era federal budget? That would be a 32% cut in federal spending. That is the magnitude of the problem. I watched that goofy Maxine Walters throw out a figure of a "trillion" dollar jobs programs... trillion is so easy to say... that's where we are. If Obama comes up with a 3: 1 cuts to spending increase... the RNC will fall in line. But... given the ease to which congress and the presidency are special interest driven... I think the "freshman: congress in quite correct... while we are waiting for a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget... I would support a pre-Bush, Clinton era revenue/spending ratio of 18% of GDP and 17 oer cent of GDP respectively,... as a 10 year fiscal responsibility program passed by Congress and signed into law by the President... bullshit offers like the Reid bill... they will never fly. Now, there is a compromise of substance . Second, FHA divests itself of Fanny and Freddy ... if they won't regulate it... sell it. Stop interfering in and propping up failed businesses..just because they are union laden jobs. Finally, put economic limits on executive branch mandates and regulations.... that is the roll of Congress. The kiddies might rebel....I show them everyday the workings of robbing Peter to pay Paul... and the type of "friend" Paul really is. what they do with that information,,,unknown..but I am comfortable that the decisions won't be made in the absence of information. The question is... are Democrats really willing to go back to pre-Bush tax cuts? I am all for it. I will be the first to caucus for it....The "no tax" increase is security bars on the window to keep the fiscal crackheads out of the house and force serious neogtiations. Unless there are some assurances that spending is less than revenue...no sense handing out more tax crack. It's not hard math.. spend less than you take in...deficits get reduced. You tell me what good it does for American jobs to have to borrow and pay interest on growing debt? Pay off the credit cards.

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
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kootch: only 3 pages of google news results for "kimberly clark everett" and not one word about the EPA and new regs being the motive for the sale of that mill.

http://www.snohomishcountybusinessjournal.com/article/20110901/SCBJ14/709019862/-1/SCBJ

got insider information, do ya? did you get that from your monthly shareholder reports? or did you pull it straight from your backside?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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OPh there is plenty in there... you can also see the how many humdreds of millions KC spend in the lats 10 years of ownership... and the

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/1107047.pdf

"Since the merger, the company has invested about $300 million in the Everett operation, installing major wastewater treatment systems, adding a new effluent outfall and switching its pulp-making system from one based on chlorine to chlorine dioxide, which is considered more environmentally friendly"

and

It also teamed with the Snohomish County Public Utility District to operate a cogeneration facility that burned waste wood to create electricity. The company recently terminated its operating agreement with the PUD to make buyers more interested in the site, Brand said.

"He said the agreement required the company to operate the facility at a rate that was unsustainable. (EPA air mandate forced then to stop producing their own power)

After spending some 300 million... they decided enough is enough...

see redblack with another 900 pages of air regulations generated this year alone by the EPA.... businesses don't like to invest in uncertainty... like Boeing... what was it? Five works stoppages in three years... they are going to build the replacement for the 737 in SC.... where the business climate is stable, predictable.

And yes ... it's called a stockbroker... it's their job to get the future plans of a public traded company.... amazing... they call investor relations... try it. Sota gives ya a more complete picture than Google... BTY... they are expanding production outside of WA and overseas...

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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redblack....then the downside of "getting those greedy bastard Wall Street guys" or getting corporations to pay "their fair share".... letter to the editor... this state is by nature business hostile.... as most liberal states are...

To John C. You are right on. It's not just the 750 families of KC employees who will be affected by this closure. Somewhere down the road everyone will feel the impact of this.

Alot of KC venders are local. By the grace of God I hope it's just 750 jobs that are lost but the possibility remains that it will be more due to the impact on these "outside" sources. To name just a few: BNSF, local saw mills, Pepsi, Coke, Food America, Longview fiber to name a few. There are many more small machine shops that will lose KC business not to mention the long haul truckers, chemical suppliers and venders out of state.
If you think that closing this mill will not affect the consumers or businesses, open your eyes. How many more homes will be lost to foreclosure, car loans defaulted on? How many displaced workers will have to rely on state medical for their children, food banks and food stamps?

The whole community will be affected by this in one way or another. May God help us all!

Posted 8 months ago #
sydney
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I looked but couldn't see whether anyone pointed out that Reagan's backers PAID THE IRANIANS TO KEEP THE HOSTAGES and RELEASE THEM WHEN REAGAN GOT INAUGURATED.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Kman...

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110125/SCBJ02/301259997/1011/BIZ02

please, please show us where exactly K-C says that they're closing the Everett plant because regulations are simply too tough. Is that also why they are closing the operation in...Australia? Are you entirely sure about that? In all that I'm reading about this closure, I don't see K-C grousing about how we have over regulated them out of businees there, that EPA has something to do with it. So...a few facts would be nice. Clue us in to where you are reading that this is the cause. OK?

Posted 8 months ago #
elikapeka
Member Profile

Kooch, as a small business person myself, all I can say is if accounting is 12 percent of your expenses and you're working half the year to pay your taxes and fees, and you don't have a mechanism to pass your business valued at over $2 million to your family, dude, seriously, you need to get a better accountant.

Posted 8 months ago #
Bostonman
Member Profile

To answer the original questions I think Obama did the right thing moving the speech. Even as a Republican I don't think what he did was out of weakness or backing down. He just made the right decision since the debate was on the schedule first. Too many writters like to put a nice political spin into why he did something but maybe it was just because he knew it was right.

Honestly I try not to read too much into those articles. I can make an informed decision without reading opinion articles.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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I have to agree about the political spin. However, I do think that when he originally brought it up to John Boehner, things would have been simpler if Boehner had said it wouldn't work right form the start. A lot of the flap could have been avoided. I am not a Repub, yet I am extremely curious as to how the debate will go. We all need to be paying attention to everything all the candidates say. You know, that "promise them anything" thing. It helps to make an informed decision. And I'm not really into the first NFL Thursday night game, so don't give a rip that the speech ends before kickoff. Come on, folks, priorities, for goodness sake.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

elikapedia..

you make me smile..
and yes, that's a good thing

Kootch..

your timing on the environmental rules that are shutting big business down failed as the Obama administration just came down on the side of big business when it comes to air quality.

to take a page from elikapedia..
if your stockbroker is really feeding you that story line ..
you need a new stockbroker :(

any company that quits now over air standards after investing 300 million is penny wise and pound foolish.

there must be much more to this story

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

elikapedia.... it's called cutting your losses... if the 300 million won't satsify them... what will? Yes, Obama did roll on the coal industry.. he had to. Over 20% of the current grid is powered by generation facilities that do not meet the EPA standards... they would shut them down in a second rather than invest in them... talk about energy costs SOARING..that math was simple enough to understand, even for him. . we are in the process of being transformed to shale natural gas... lots of wells to be drilled and lots of pipleine to be laid before LNG can replace coal... but it will. (damn... those pesky investment tax credits... that went to "Big Oil" to find new energy sources and write downs in R&D..and investments in fracturing and horizonal boring.... those horrible subsidies...) Elikapedia... if your business is JUST like mine,,,, you are paying 12%... and glad to be doing it... if you are a resaler, consultant or manufacturer... it would be high) I churn paper and trade and have import/export rules and regulations. Sydney... you are boarding on whacko...prove this grand theory...sources other than Keith Oberman, rachal Maddox...and what ya heard at the last gathering of Looney Leftists..would be appreciated... Now RR DID get his fingers caught in the Iran Contra affair... want to see the video where he manned up, confessed to the nation...mad a public apology, and appointed a Democratic led investigation team to ferret out all the details? It was called the Tower Commission Report.... Tell me where to send your free Kool Aid for life voucher if you can locate the Reagan Administration paying Iran to delay the hostage release... The Iranians did it for two reasons... one.. RR would have stood for hostage taking for about 1 day... Iran would have met the absolute fury of the 7th Fleet and all the ground assets necessary to smash the Kohmeni regime. Thanks to Wiki Leaks.. we know that message was delivered by no less than the Soviet Ambassador... who had their hands full in of all places..Afghanistan...Second, they wanted to punish Carter ... and hopefully curry favor with the new administration.. which sadly they did. Hence the Iran Contra affair.. bty 17 Reagan appointees were indicted INCLUDING Caspar Weinberger... We will see if Obama is equally as brave with Operation Fast and Furious... I am betting no.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Back to the topic... Obama has to request a joint session... it ain't his house. He is one third of the checks and balances system. Second, Congress has to officially invite the Senate..The Senate then has to send a formal acceptance..damn that Constituion. it sure screws up democratic politics!!! .. the senate just doesn't stroll on over. Ronald Reagan .. for a little historical perspective..... asked then Speaker of the House Tip O Neil to speak on the House floor.... O' Neil said.. no. RR did not cry,
kick his heels, acry "obstructionist, obstructionist... the right did not froth at the mouth... He simply made a national address from the Oval Office....as this President could have also done. No... this was a political dog and pony show... there was no substance to his request other then to get the "no" in front of his adoring devotees.... and upstage the first republican debates. The last time he addressed Congress he was arrogant and rude...calling republicans " unpatriotic".... phone it in Obama... from the big black bus that won't go near a big black neighborhood... he could have just put up cardboard cut outs of house and senate members,,,dubbed in the applause lines.. and pretended he had a speech of great gravitas...save us the expense of a joint session. Even FDR was taken to the woodshed for similar grandstanding...

Is Jersey Shore on at the same time? Seinfeld re-runs? Anything interesting?

From American Thinker:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/obamas_joint_session_blunder.html

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

And to elikapedia... I wrote.... ONE of the favored envy/greed grabs is the inheritence tax.... this is a Democratic favorite... I didn't say I was going to pay it or didn't have it shielded... I said..the cost of having to jump through these machinations is an outrage. It has crushed many a family owned business...and jobs... lots of jobs..when a family has to liquidate plant, equipment, property to pay taxes on an enterprise that has been paying taxes since its inception... Washington State... you work the equivalent of 106 working days to pay taxes.... unless you are a government worker.. there are 244 working days per year.... close enough? Washington State... is the FIFTH most confiscatory state in the nation....what employee would want to hire here? It would be an endless battle to keep employees ahead of the tax curve... it puts wage pressures up, and up and up.... new $60 car tabs... fee for clubs with a dance floor, .... on and on... I also checked.... every state that is higher? NY, CA, NJ, CT.... they also have a state income tax... go figure. And the WA State legislature wants an income tax too!!!

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/tfd_bystate_days&rank-20110330-4.pdf

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
Member Profile

Hell Kootch, the people KNOW we need a jobs program. It's CONGRESS that obviously hasn't gotten the message yet, hence, the speech before a joint session of OUR very comfortable "representatives."

Posted 8 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

I have no facts other then MY reality. I am looking to hire.

Job creation? really we don't have money to pay for the post office and here in then next couple of months it may have to shut down and yet some the government gets money to pay for infrastructure type jobs, most for union people hmmmm.

We don't have money to feed the poor and cutting costs in that area too and still have money to build a bridge or tunnel some where. God the insanity of it. Like HWY 99

I am just sick and tired of people saying they can't find a job. The job before you had before you got laid off is not out there any more. Get over that. Hell I know most people don't want to scrub a toilet well cry me a river people. It is a job.

The job I have to offer is not a $20-30.00 per hr job nor do I do benefits I can't afford. I am in the same boat kman. God the amount of taxes I pay urgh, don't get me wrong I am ok with paying my taxes. I just don't want to pay for the governments health club or health insurance.

Sorry if I may be bit off topic, but it is talking about jobs and job creation.

Posted 8 months ago #
kr
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Perhaps there would be a more reasoned debate in both Washingtons if both sides started to use a little punctuation and grammar. Some of these posts are nearly incomprehensible.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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Totally agree :)

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
Member Profile

Hammerhead, we have the money to rebuild our neglected infrastructure and run our necessary government services AND feed, cloth, and shelter the poor, it is just tied up in foreign conquests, jailing the poor and brown-skinned people for petty crimes, and the offshore bank accounts and tax-shelters of the hyper-wealthy and the corporations they control. Tired of paying onerous taxes on your small business? DEMAND that taxes on the out-of-sight wealthy be returned to a level that will allow us to once again take care of our people. There is a reason the tax burden is so heavy, it's been shifted onto your backs by these big corporate so-called "job creators" who don't create jobs. Blame it on Republicans and DCCC-style Democrats,
and we, the people, who, through our neglect, let them get away with it.

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

kootch: you might want to peruse this link:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/01/122865/regulations-taxes-arent-killing.html#ixzz1WnAbTmEQ

secondly, if kimberly clark can't do business without poisoning the environment, then screw 'em. it's a tough old world out there, and we, the people, sometimes have to do the hard thing to put business back in its place. that's our air and our water, not theirs, and we will decide what we will tolerate, not them.

really, now. how much more of that shit do we have to put up with? after BP, massey energy and the mine collapses, mountaintop removal, fracking... who in his right mind thinks that the EPA, OSHA, or MSHA is too tough on business?

cry me a river, but quit trying to BS me.

although i suppose it's possible that you really believe that drivel. then again, you still offered no proof whatsoever that kimberly clark is closing that mill because of increased EPA regulations. read the snohomish business journal link i provided.

Posted 8 months ago #
dawsonct
Member Profile

Yeah, funny how the self-proclaimed free-marketeers always want to eliminate the rules by which the game is played.
You know, if no one "regulated" my walking into a bank and taking all the money I want without question or recrimination, I would be a wealthy man. Why do you people insist on stifling my prosperity!?

Posted 8 months ago #
elikapeka
Member Profile

KR, thank you!

Kootch, you are conflating personal and business taxes, state and local taxes, taxes and fees, and throwing inheritance taxes into the mix. They are all very different - you've lost me with your stream of consciousness.

Bottom line for me and I think for most businesses is that you hire people when there is a demand for your product, and the person you hire will cost you less than you can bring in. Taxes are not the deciding factor for most businesses when it comes to hiring. In fact, there is an argument to be made (and others make it much more cogently than I) that when taxes are higher, businesses will invest more money into the company since they don't want to pay the taxes incurred upon taking it out, actually improving the economy.

The mantra of low taxes and low regulation hasn't worked. We've been doing that since the days of RR. Time to try something else. I don't see anybody in either party right now that is offering anything to get excited about. Too much pettiness and greed all the way around.

Posted 8 months ago #
blackwatch
Member Profile

kootchman you're obviously a smart guy, but what confuses me is how you guys get your sense of morality so out of skew.
First off it's not just the Reps or the Democrat it's both that are screwing the average American, the Republicans just do it shamelessly, because the big corporations are paying them to. And you're being led along like a puppy to the slaughter, spouting the party line the whole way down.. The people that run these giant multi-national corps respond to nothing other than the bottom line and growth. Most would sell their mother for a black line. And this is the problem, they will almost always win because they have the money and the power the only thing we have is our feet and our voices, and they don't care about the "little" guy at all. They don't care about our air or water and argue the global warming isn't real so they can pollute to their hearts content,and that's the real reason the 820 union jobs were lost because we're being penalized for doing the right thing and the company wants to go where stupid people allow it to pollute for just a while longer until it's so messed up it can't be brought back. And I'm sure they don't even realize just how messed up their thinking is.
And I've heard the left's tired arguments for so long but you guys just don't get it. It's morally wrong to let people suffer through circumstances they had no control over. And it's been proven over and over that more money going to the already wealthy just ends up in their stock account. And all the while we are the only major country in the world that doesn't have health care for all it's citizens.
The progressive thinkers have got to get their heads together and figure out how to fight this growing selfish scourge or we're done for. Because now they want to cut all government out while we should be investing until this depression is over. This country really became the great country it was when the upper tax brackets were 72-98%. Time to do it again.
Too much fantasy, and not enough reality, and no heart at all.......

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

A somewhat skewed version of a truth. redblack... your very trade depends upon HUGE energy to burn calcium carbonate to clinker, then milled to cement. One ton of cement... a little over one ton of CO2... that limestone? Ever actually see a calcium carbonate strip mine? The clinker cooker... natural gas or oil... if you want electricity..you have to generate heat... or dam wild running rivers... take your pick. I read it...redblack. Ya think that motel owner is paying union scale job wages? Low skill, service industry wages. tragic. But. we were talking about high capital requiring, investor owned, Kimberly Clark... who just trashed union workers... but as long as you can disagree with me.. it's ok to sorta reverse gears eh? If you drive a car... you extract ore or burn fossil fuels, ... I said clearly in my post... yes.. there are things companies can..and should do to mitigate enviornmental damges.. I like a lot of animals out there to hunt and kill...and fish. In the case of KC...they DID invest 300 million.. was it perfect No... but at some point..all of these plants become obsolete enough so they will not be efficient and they will be replaced... THAT is the time to invest in state of the art mitigation... going back in time to a 50's era plant reaches a point of diminishing returns... as it did in this case. So... KC builds new plant and equipment with their capital... but... it did cost 800 plus union jobs redblack... and where they do build and expand will be in states with the best return on that investment. Would you take a job here in WA with the fifth largest tax burden at 30 per hour.. or 20 per hour in the state with the half the tax burdern? Wanna REALLY clean up the Sound? Stop flushing synthetic hormones (pesticides, plastics, birth control containing urine) they are called persistants and your waste treatment plants don't catch em'...pesticides, surface water runoff from highways driveways, parking lots.. (numer one source of PS pollution) ... we do have health care for our citizens ...Messr Blackwatch... it's just not socialized... and given the state of the European economy... it's all about cutting back on those social "freebies"...they are tanking faster then we were... Greece, Italy, France, Spain... etc... none of it is free. Let's not hear about the $$$$ ... it is a pure bs argument... the left has plenty of powder... in fact has more lobby money and campaign money in the game. Try to raise tax rates to 72 per cent... go ahead. Where do you think all that investment will go? We are going to be a land of part time barristas.. at best. It ain't perfect for sure... ya wanna take a trip down memory lane to when the top tax brackets were 72-92 per cent...? You want that society back again? Talk about a misery laden existence.... the 50's, and 60's?.... it was friggen horrible ... for most of our citizens... not too many minorities in your family tree I am betting. A little of that Appalachia poverty? A HS graduation rate of 25 per cent or less?... less than 10 per cent of the populations with a 4 year college degree, ... noooo not me.

Posted 8 months ago #
blackwatch
Member Profile

Actually no, we don't have health care for all our citizens and that's the problem, the're using the emergency rooms and it's an overly expensive way of just providing health care for all. You want to really see a misery laden existence? Just keep up with the austerity package in a "repression"
And just why do you think that by bringing back 72% tax rate will automatically bring back racism? The low educational rates were due to the fact that we were a farm nation...no need for higher education. You have a very skewed way of seeing things....

Posted 8 months ago #
HMC Rich
Member Profile

Obama lost. I expect to hear that phrase fourteen months from now.

Mr. President, Don't you dare interrupt the reigning World Champion Green Bay Packers vs the New Orleans Saints.

BHO's only way to re-election is to throw out this tax code and implement a new one conducive to business growth.

Posted 8 months ago #

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