West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

(29 posts)

Mom foils child snatching at Pike Place

Started 3 years ago by mrhineh
Latest reply from JoB

mrhineh
Member Profile

Why I don't care if "the nice man" doesn't say hi to my child:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009000368_webkidnap07m.html

Posted 3 years ago #
CallMeAl
Member Profile

Snatch is nothing to laugh at. I'm glad the child is safe.

Posted 3 years ago #
Traci
Member Profile

That's so scary.

Posted 3 years ago #
goodgraces
Member Profile

Absolutely terrifying.

I highly suggest this DVD about stranger safety. http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Safety-Angela-Shelton/dp/B0009LS9Y4/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1239141056&sr=8-1

It is fabulous and encourages kids to YELL loudly if taken or even approached or solicited by someone they don't know. The program teaches them about whom to consider a "stranger" and to yell things like "This is not my mom!" or "This is not my dad!" if someone snatches them or invites them to leave with them.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

I'm just glad this ended with that POS would-be kidnapper behind bars. He's not going to survive long if he moves into the state prison system, as there is no tolerance for child molesters et al and they will rip him limb from limb.

{mounting soapbox}

Speaking generally and not specifically about this particular story, I guess I'm wondering...whatever happened to holding hands and keeping your kids in your purview at all times? I routinely see parents allowing their small children wander more than a few feet away from them, as if they trust the world to take care of their kids. Jumpin' up Judas Priest! THINK!

Parents are better off assuming the worst and preparing for it through constant unrelenting vigilance. The savage nature of the world requires it.

Posturing is the most critical component for securing your personal perimeter and is your first psychological line of defense. Criminals constantly assess people to determine who is a potential victim and who's not. Stand tall, head high, shoulders back, be attentive, make eye contact, and for the love of Pete, don't LOOK like a victim.

These are your kids and you should do whatever it takes to neutralize anyone who attempts to harm them. Show no mercy.

{un-mounting soap box}

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

Child molesters do survive the state prison system; that's why there is a somewhat sophisticated tracking system to keep the whereabouts know of them when they leave the penal system.
Thanks Goodgraces for recommending the DVD. Prevention is the best defense. This incident could have been nightmarishly bad. I hope the family and boy get the support they need to face this trauma.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

Pardon my ambiguity. This is an emotional issue for me as a parent, and hearing about this stuff infuriates me.

Correction: It is not the case that every child molester et al is dismembered in the state prison system.

However, child molesters and the like are targeted by other inmates in the system and often times it is required that they be segregated from the general population to keep them alive. If they do survive and are released back into society, they enter into the sophisticated system you refer to.

Definitely buy the DVD if you choose. I'm saying that there's some basic instinctual stuff you can draw upon without making a material purchase.

Posted 3 years ago #
Traci
Member Profile

It's surprising how much is done to inform people of sexual predators in our state. Just the other day I was substitute teaching in a middle school and handed out four sheets of info on newly registered local predators in class. Every kid gets them. They have a picture, name, location, and exactly what they did. One of them went something along the lines of "raped a five year old girl in 2000". I liked that they didn't sugar coat it for the students, they take them seriously.

Luigi, I agree completely. It sounds crazy but every time a child goes missing I think about John Walsh's son getting abducted from a supermarket.

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

No apologies needed. Its an emotional issue for everyone. I salute all parents for taking on the job.
I met John Walsh many years ago (before America's Most Wanted). The recollections he shared about his own son, Adam; and the stories of other parents who lost children; burned an image into me that I will never forget. These are stories that were so horrific that I have not once in more than 20 years, been able to repeat them to anyone.
I remember these each time there is an incident like the one at Pike Place Market.

Posted 3 years ago #
Irukandji
Member Profile

For the adults: Gavin deBecker's book The Gift of Fear is a good one and applies to helping kids keep their instincts in tact.

Creeps and predators abound, and the sex offender registry is only a small sample.

Posted 3 years ago #
Oliver
Member Profile

Thanks for the recommendation, good graces. i saw the article earlier and was realizing that I haven't taught my 4 year old what to do in that situation. This is very scary.

Posted 3 years ago #
goodgraces
Member Profile

Just another note: The DVD I recommended was produced by John Walsh's company. It's available through the Seattle Public Library system (for free). :)

Posted 3 years ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

The abduction of a child is so abhorrent to us that it is natural for everyone to get really worked up and scared when you read a story like this. By all means do what you have to do to protect your children but before all you parents out there lose any sleep tonight consider this: There are around 100 non-family child abductions in the USA each year. And there currently are about 74 million children in the United States. The chance of this happening to your child is rare in the extreme. The vast majority of child abductions are by a parent. Likewise, by far the greatest threat of sexual abuse comes from members of the child's immediate family or people who are friends of the family. The notion of sex offenders cruising playgrounds to abduct and abuse children is largely a myth. Just a little bit of perspective in our collective culture of fear.

Posted 3 years ago #
cathyw
Member Profile

I was one of those horrible mothers that put their kids on a leash any time I took them to the Market! They still hate me for it. :)

Posted 3 years ago #
Lucile 2
Member Profile

Haha Cathyw: I was one of those leashed kids (not yours). It kept my mother from pulling her hair out.

Posted 3 years ago #
Luckie
Member Profile

I leashed my kid (who was a "runner") occasionally, especially in the airport. I don't remember getting stinkeye from anyone. Of course, the leash was better than my first choice: duct tape....

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

LOL... i think some days my kids would have appreciated duct tape...

as they grew, we settled on whistles so they could be jsut out of sight and still signal me if they needed me.

Predators are not nice people...

Cjboffoli, you would be surprised at how many live hidden among us. they prey on their families and friend's kids.. and too many families still hush it up.

Had you or someone you love ever been the victim of one of these predators... you wouldn't find any risk acceptable.

Posted 3 years ago #
GAnative
Member Profile

My oldest was a wanderer but she only got away from me once in the downtown Nordstrom at Christmas time. It was a terrifying 10 minutes before we found her playing in a dressing room.

After that I bought a leash but I only had to use it once. She hated it so much that I just had it with me as a threat if she took her hand off the cart, stroller, me, etc and it worked.

Posted 3 years ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

JoB: I actually wouldn't be surprised considering that you've essentially re-worded the same point I was making. And I did not put a value on the acceptability of any risk, but instead illustrated that the sensationalist coverage of these stories overemphasizes the wrong kind of danger.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

cjboffoli...

children are at risk everywhere.. even at public events you might consider safe.

a known pedophile tried to leave my brother's wedding reception with my pre-teen daughter.

He reached the door before being stopped by my husband and I... and there were those standing near who asked what the fuss was... he was such a nice man and he really loved children.

Recently, a granddaughter of mine escaped a similar encounter at one of our local malls.

My guess is that the number of near misses that go unreported would significantly impact those statistics you quoted.

As far as i am concerned, there can't be enough publicity about the dangers of child predators...

It doesn't matter whether a child is accosted by a predator in a public space or a private one.. the damage done is life long.

I am the nearly 60 year old survivor of a predator and believe me he left me with a "gift" that never stopped giving... 50 years later i am still feeling the impact.

There is no acceptable risk when it comes to children...

it should be safe to let the hand of your child go long enough to remove a stone from your shoe.. but it isn't...

Parents need to be made aware of the dangers facing their children so that they can educate them to speak up instead of automatically ceding authority to adults.

They won't learn that unless encounters like the one at Pike Place market are publicized.

it is easier to begin the discussion of danger with strangers.. but that conversation opens the door to a much larger conversation that will help protect children from all predators.. even those they know and are taught to respect.

and... it will help teach parents to listen to their children when they attempt to express their discomfort.

the conversation has to start somewhere... there is still far too much abuse.

Posted 3 years ago #
WS4fun
Member Profile

I didn't read cjboffoli's comment as diminishing the importance of watching out for your kids safety. As a mother of 4, I haven't stopped worrying about my kids for the last 24 years...starting with the time I decided to try to get pregnant.

From the very beginning we worry about every little thing that could possibly happen. At some point we need to relax just a bit and enjoy our kids and what it means to be a parent.

No bad statistic is a good one, no matter how small. But keep your eyes and ears open and enjoy your kids.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

WS4fun...

i agree that we all need to enjoy our children.. and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren and that we shouldn't let our own fears get in the way.

I bought my kids whistles the minute they were old enough to need some independence... and i still held my breath and prayed every time they were out of sight.

however, having lived through times when even the kind of predator that preys on children at pike place market was swept under the rug.. considered inappropriate for reporting as long as the abuse stopped short of murder.. i welcome the change in reporting.

What some see as sensationalism, i see as desensitizing shame for the victims of these predators...

and as the opening for conversations with children of all ages about what they can do if something similar happens to them.

nothing is worse than the feeling of helplessness a child feels when victimized... giving them any tools that make them feel like they have options is a very good thing.

as is being so open about the subject with children that they feel free to talk to you about anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.

child predators make us uncomfortable... so it is easier to just overlook the truth that all of life's skills are learned.. predators count on that discomfort.

somehow we expect children to just know the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior after having our talk with them instead of realizing that awareness will be an ongoing process that is constantly challenged by new experiences... and thus requires continued conversation.

if the "sensationalism" some complain about generates conversation that saves one child... that kind of reporting serves a greater good.

Posted 3 years ago #
WS4fun
Member Profile

I know from a personal, painful experience the importance of making sure your kids know the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. I also am relieved that in the incidence that "hit home" for my family, I was immediately informed so I could take the appropriate actions to protect my children and others.

What my family learned was sharing our story with others was theraputic for some people and an eye opener for others. I was shocked how many women said "that happened to me too, but I never told anyone".

Yes, stories like the one at Pike Place Market should be told. But compared to what can happen in your own home or that of family members and friends...the stats will prove that family and friends are the biggest concern...sadly.

Posted 3 years ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

JoB: Again, the incident at Pike Place was a situation in which a complete and total stranger attempted to abduct a child. Even allowing for under-reported cases they are still extremely rare events. The personal experiences you related further support my warning that adults who are known to the child, often in a familiar environment, pose a much greater threat than perfect strangers.

The mainstream American media covers events like these in the same sensationalist way that they cover most news: in a manner that garners the most attention and stokes fear. Airplane crashes and shark attacks are covered in the same way. All of these things tap into primal fears: Our need to protect ourselves from death and our offspring from predators.

But when it comes to the subject of children being involved in abductions and sex crimes the media often goes one step further and caters to a prurient interest. I cannot count the number of stories I have seen in which the media relays horrible, excessive detail. I'll never forget the network television interview with Elizabeth Smart in which they actually asked a young teenaged victim of an abduction and rape for intricate details of her experience.

Criticism of the mainstream media's penchant for sensationalism has absolutely nothing to do with shining light upon the deeds of child predators. Overselling incidents like the one at Pike Place obscures the real danger to our children because it is inherently much easier for us to believe that the danger is lurking somewhere out there and much too disturbing to even consider that the danger is REALLY lurking right under our noses.

I or someone I know might be involved in a plane crash. They might be attacked by a shark. It would be devastating for me and/or my family and would no doubt alter my emotions and opinions regarding these things for the rest of my life. But it would not alter the fact that incidents like these are still exceedingly rare. No one is saying not to be vigilant. No one is saying not to communicate with your children. All I am saying is keep things in perspective and look at the facts. You could get on every plane for the rest of your life and conclude that it will probably crash. You might expect a shark to gobble you up the second you dip a toe in the ocean. Or you could just live your life with reasonable caution and not emotional hysteria.

If there is "no acceptable risk when it comes to children" then why even let them out of the house? Maybe everyone should wrap them in a suit of armor and hang a sign on the outside that reads "There is not a child inside this suit of armor. There is nothing to see here. Move along." There IS an acceptable level of risk because that's what living a rational life requires.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

cjboffoli...

we see things very differently.

i didn't see the sensationalism you did in the reporting of the incident at Pike Place Market.

I saw an incident where a parent was momentarily distracted, a predator took immediate advantage, the parents responded quickly and rationally, a child was recovered, the police were notified and the perpetrator was arrested.

I believe it is naive if to think that incidents of this sort are over-reported.

There would have been no story here after the child was recovered if the police had not apprehended the perpetrator... there was a story because an actual arrest in incidents like this is not common.

even then, this story got little more coverage than the recent theft of a dog from the owner's vehicle outside a restaurant.

sensationalism? occassionally that happens, but more often incidents go unreported... as anyone who has ever been involved in that kind of incident will tell you.

it's amazing what you hear about experiences with child predators if you are open enough to speak about your experience to others... there are far too many stories told for this to be such an uncommon event.

Posted 3 years ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

JoB: Finally something we agree on! We absolutely DO see things very differently. And now it seems that all of our assumptions were misguided. The Seattle Times is reporting that the man who attempted to abduct that child at Pike Place was apparently not a "predator" at all but a mentally ill man who was having a bad reaction to new meds.

BTW, the FBI statistics I referenced are not based on arrests but on reports of missing children. I know you'd like to find a a way to make the facts support your emotion on this issue but they simply don't. Again, about 74 million children in the USA. Around 100 non-family abductions a year. Some years less. There were only 91 in 2001. Even if you tripled those numbers to account for under-reporting your child would still have an astronomically higher chance of contracting avian flu than having a stranger abduct them.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Cjboffoli...

I don't think the fact that this was simply a mentally ill person having a bad reaction to new meds kept that child from being frightened as he was taken away from his parents... or would necessarily have returned him safely to them.

do you?

i hope the man involved receives more assistance than a change in his medications..

As for focusing only on abduction stats.. they leave a great deal of the harm done to children out of the picture.

in fact.. the family abduction stats are inflated by parents of both sexes removing children from court mandated visitations where they strongly suspect their child is in danger...

but let's say you are right...

Do you tell the family member or friend who becomes the parent of one of those 100 that their kid had a greater chance of contracting the Avian Flu so there was no need to make such a big deal of the dangers?

Probably not.

that is what i mean by no acceptable risk.. because any risk becomes unacceptable when the child is your own.

Posted 3 years ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

JoB: The story is still developing. But it doesn't sound like the man has any history of predatory activity towards children. Though I know little to nothing about the medical treatment of psychiatric patients I know enough to say that it is within the realm of possibility that they act erratically.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

cjboffoli...

i have no doubt the man was acting erratically...

but i also have no doubt that his erratic behavior impacted the child he walked off with... not to mention the child's parents.

his abduction is no less because it may not have been that kind of predatory behavior... and it still could have been.... the lack of a legal history of predatory behavior might mean only that he hasn't been caught before...

luckily we won't find out either way this time.

but even if he thought that was his grandson or his child when he walked away with him... it was still a traumatic event for that family.

Posted 3 years ago #