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metro funding

Started 11 months ago by hooper1961
Latest reply from Genesee Hill

hooper1961
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i see in today's times that metro is about $60,000,000 short of funding and a proposal is to raise car tab fee by $20. metro serves 350,000 customers a day, raising the fair by 50 cents for all users roughly would raise $45 to 50,000,000. thus why is a fair increase not being brought to the table?

Posted 11 months ago #
JanS
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hoop,, do you take the bus on a regular basis? Do you have any idea what the fares are now? Just curious (no fair looking it up before answering)

Posted 11 months ago #
metrognome
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I think we should terminate all Metro services (bus, carpool, vanpool) for, oh, say a month, and see how many more cars are on the road. And how many people have to quit their jobs.

Here is an article from today's Seattle Times featuring a WSite vanpooling to Bothell that included these stats on why public transportation is important (to be fair, I should note that vanpool fares pay the entire operating cost; bus fares pay about 25% of that service's operating cost):

In 2010, King County’s vanpool program had a large environmental impact:

Reduction in vehicle miles traveled - 46,056,054
Gallons of gas saved - 2,769,785
Metric tons of greenhouse gas reduced - 494,484
Metric tons of carbon dioxide reduced -483,111

http://blog.nwjobs.com/careercenter/easy_riders_vanpooling_can _save_time_money_and_the_planet.html (sorry, had to split the url cuz I'm too lazy to have it shortened.)

Posted 11 months ago #
redblack
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and you all know that mayor mcginn wants to add $20 to seattle citizens' car tabs to fund in-city light rail on our own - without waiting another 15 years for sound transit to do it, right?

i agree wholeheartedly. i say make it $50. let's fund both metro and in-city light rail. maybe even a chunk of that dumbassed tunnel.

mcginn can take a suitcase full of cash to olympia, empty it out on gregoire's desk, and say, "here. will you talk to me now?"

it would be a fitting symbol.

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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Heck, you could add a 200 dollar additional tax to my car tab(s) for light rail to/from West Seattle and I would gladly vote/pay for it. To paraphrase J D Wentworth: I want light rail to West Seattle and I WANT IT NOW!

Posted 11 months ago #
DP
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Heck, you could add a 200 dollar additional tax to my car tab(s) for light rail to/from West Seattle and I would gladly vote/pay for it.

Genesee Hill: I don't share your confidence in the ability of Seattle to finish transportation projects it dreams up and taxes people for. I recall trading a dollar amount similar to the one you mention in exchange for a promise that soon I'd be riding a shiny new monorail in the sky.

Well, I never did get to ride that monorail. And needless to say, I never saw my 200 bucks again, either.

As we know, it's hard to make predictions. Especially about the future.

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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jans i do take the bus regularly to seattle. it's $2.25 that is far cheaper than driving and parking downtown!

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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DP;

I agree. I voted for the goofy monorail as well. But, I don't let one mistake keep me down for the rest of my life! I could not even venture a guess on how much I have spent on useless wars in my life time! But, I am sure there will be another one just around the corner....

Posted 11 months ago #
metrognome
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GenHill -- not sure how old you are, but I am confident in saying that you will never see light rail or even streetcar service from the mainland to WS in your lifetime and probably your children and grandchildren. Simply put -- not enough population density added to the challenge of getting across the Duwamish and dealing with our hills. I'll be happy to buy a case of Mexican Coca-Cola and leave it somewhere for your descendents, just in case.

(notice I said 'from the mainland'; I think it is also highly unlikely streetcar service will ever be built on the peninsula ...)

Posted 11 months ago #
metrognome
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hoop -- to attempt to answer your question, there is something called 'fare elasticity' which means that when you raise fares, you lose a certain amount of ridership. Plus with so many passes, even if the same amount of rides are taken, you don't get an extra 25 cents from every rider.

If you want some background on the current financial situation, check here:

http://metro.kingcounty.gov/am/future/

If you want general background on the benefits of public transportation, go to

http://www.apta.com/RESOURCES/Pages/Default.aspx, select 'Advocacy and Education' from the left nav bar and look for anything by Paul Weyrich, a noted conservative, who researched and wrote on this topic.

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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metrognome i understand basic economics and the value of transportation. a 25 to 50 cent fare increase across the board is very reasonable. presuming a 50 cent fare increase means the 56 would cost $2.75 (off-peak) to get to downtown seattle that is still way cheaper than driving and paying for parking!

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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metrognome,

Yes, you are no doubt correct, it is very doubtful I will see it. The cost alone will almost ensure that. I feel we have the density for light rail though. The hills weren't a hindrance in the 1920s when we had streetcars to West Seattle. They crossed the Duwamish and went up Avalon to the Junction. Another branch went to Alki and to 61st. On my walks, I can still see where the tracks were on 61st!

I asked one of my elderly neighbors if he remembers the streetcars in West Seattle. He replied: "Hell, I used to ride 'em"! Another elderly friend used to ride them to Lincoln Park. He said his sister was afraid to look down when they crossed the old wooden viaduct across the Duwamish!

Posted 11 months ago #
Elizagrace
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Forget the flat rate car tab, what ever happened to the value of the car to determine the car tab fee...

Posted 11 months ago #
anonyme
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The fares for elderly and disabled passengers were recently tripled in just over 12 months. With food and utility prices skyrocketing and Social Security frozen for the past two years now, this demographic simply cannot take another fare increase.

Posted 11 months ago #
365Stairs
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Tim Eye Man is lurking somewhere...I can smell him...

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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elizagrace - people voted to ax the car tab due to unrealistic valuations that they used when it was in use.

anonyme - social security was never intended to be a sole source retirement. the bus fares for elderly are dirt cheap as it is and raising them is not unreasonable.

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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The value based car tab fee was an Eyeman measure that passed in an election.

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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Yeah, people thought it was unfair that the owner of a Ferarri 330GTB 2+2 paid more for his/her tabs than an owner of a 1962 Renault Dauphine!

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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no they thought it was unfair the State valued their 10 year old ford focus at $5,000 instead of at the Kelley Blue Book value of $1,000. The values are illustrative only. this measure may not have passed if the legislature/governor had stepped to the plate and FIXED this issue that annoyed a lot of people that could very well have been the difference.

it's like the legislature if they had limited the soda tax to soda the initiative likely would have not passed.

Posted 11 months ago #
miws
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Hoop, it's nice that the $2.25 bus fare is such a bargain for you, but there are many people that are on limited incomes, or are not getting regular raises at work, or are unemployed, and every $0.25 increase, (and there have been several over the last few short years) add up to quite a bit, when multiplied by daily, or otherwise frequent bus riding.

Mike

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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it's a bargain for everyone

Posted 11 months ago #
dobro
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"it's a bargain for everyone"

unproveable assertion based on your own prejudiced ideas.Even when contradicted by people with factual information (redblack, JoB) and anecdotal evidence drawn from their own circumstances (Mike), nothing gets thru. This is why I see no reason to engage in conversation with a person like yourself. I'm out.

Posted 11 months ago #
Sue
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BTW, the peak fare for Metro (one zone) is actually $2.50 now, not $2.25 (which is the off-peak fare).

Posted 11 months ago #
maplesyrup
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Car tab fees should be raised to cover transportation projects. The problem is that you can't trust the legislature to use the funds raised strictly for those purposes.

Anyway, roughly 25% of Seattle proper lives in West Seattle. Seems like enough to justify a rail project to me.

Posted 11 months ago #
hooper1961
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i said off-peak

$4.50 for a round trip to and from seattle downtown versus driving and paying for parking ~$15.00. this is a flat out bargain

Posted 11 months ago #
JanS
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Most people go to work during the peak hours...they can't decide to go later for themselves.

Posted 11 months ago #
metrognome
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maplesyrup -- that 25% figure sounds grossly inflated to me; cite your source. Per the 2000 Census, the population of Seattle is 563,374 with 258,499 households. Are you saying there are 60,000 plus households with over 140,000 people in WS?

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/Population_
Demographics/Overview/default.asp

Posted 11 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

no, there are around 85,000 souls in west seattle. we are roughly 1/6 of seattle, IIRC.

still a sizable voting bloc.

so therefore we must have roads - and nothing but roads.

Posted 11 months ago #
maplesyrup
Member Profile

metrognome, usually if I were ordered to "cite your source" I'd respond with something anti-authoritarian and unpleasant, but here ya go, Commander.

http://homes.point2.com/Neighborhood/US/Washington/King-County/Seattle/West-Seattle-Demographics.aspx

I did mistakenly add the 98199 and 98108 zip codes, so instead of the 145k I calculated initially, the real number should be around 102k. My mistake.

So we're talking around 18%, still a sizable enough of a percentage to merit some attention with respect to rail or other transportation issues.

Posted 11 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

You all are just a hoot....Seattle is a city. West Seattle is not an enclave. I love the "green savings" posted to justify van pooling...or the self professed "sustainable" greenie beans. The greenest development is the densist development..water and sewer lines are in closer proximity to treatment plants..like bodies in cars...it's the pipes in the ground and pumping stations that cost. GHill, rarely right (literally and politically) hit the nail on the head...increase density, raise the height limits on buildings and rezone east and west of CA Ave for a mile on either side to 140 feet or better. You will get light rail for sure. Love to have my property rezoned...so I can sell it to a developer who will do that Post Slalinist box thing they are doing in the Junction...(now there is some crap architecture!) let me recoup the housing market meltdown... go for density..it's the civic thing to do. Maybe instead of coffee shops ad naseum, and ho hum sanwhic shops we can actually attract some diverse business interests...is there a street anywhere in the USA with more coffee/donut/sandwhich shops? When you can shop local, a function of density....you don't need to drive to Southcenter, Northgate, downtown....just keep it mixed use and cram it full

Posted 11 months ago #
chrisma
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I'm pretty sure there are more nail salons and hair salons than either coffee or sandwich shops on California Ave. Closely followed by drinking establishments.

Posted 11 months ago #
metrognome
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maplesyrup -- sorry if my request seemed abrupt; 'cite your source' is the phrase I have seen most commonly used to seek add'l info.

I prefer to use official gov't sources for this kind of data; unfortunately, the city's site isn't geared to answer this question easily and the same neighborhood name can have 2 or more definitions. For the 2000 census, WS was divided into two districts: SW and Delridge. South Park was included in a third district.

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/cms/groups/pan/@pan/documents/
web_informational/dpds_006621.pdf

The SW district had 45,886 residents while Delridge had 33,000 for a total of 78,886. Seattle's total population is 563,374, so WS had 14% of Seattle's residents (if you include South Park, you add 3,717 residents which brings the percentage to 14.7%.)

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/Population_Demographics/
Census_2000_Data/Data_Maps_for_Locally_Defined_Areas/
DPDS_007015.asp#single

If you scroll through these reports, there is a lot of interesting info, incl. transportation.

What I couldn't find is density, which is as important as population in transportation planning. WS has several huge parks and greenbelts as well as a large industrial area. Population cores are scattered, making them difficult to serve by rail (i.e. if rail serves Delridge and WS Junction, everyone else has to bus to get there.

Also, the challenging topography in WS makes it very difficult to lay rail anywhere after AK Junction except Morgan Junction (remember the Monorail??) After that, the hills and ridges make it very difficult to go south through residential neighborhoods to other population centers.

The last issue is 'trip generators,' places like colleges and large employment centers where a lot of people want to go ... except for SCCC, WS doesn't have any and likely never will as its primarily residential and small business in nature (with the obvious exception of the Duwamish industrial area.)

I have yet to hear a cogent argument on the forum that justifies why at least $2 billion (plus debt service) should be spent on light rail. No one has ever proffered an argument about what the $2 billion buys that bus service won't do equally well or better (except that the trains can bypass clogged traffic, which doesn't happen $2billion worth of the time, in my opinion.) Every one thinks rail is 'sexy' (yes, that is a technical transportation planning term) when in fact it is expensive and really doesn't solve the kinds of transpo problems WS faces.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

hoop...

"$4.50 for a round trip to and from seattle downtown versus driving and paying for parking ~$15.00. this is a flat out bargain "

doesn't your statement kind of assume that the bus is only a "bargain" for people who can afford to own and operate a car?

Sorry Charlie.. that's not everyone.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

metrognome...

i have an argument for you.
it won't fit your "preference" for government sources since it is not based on the dollarspeak of bureaucracy... but on simple geographics.

no matter how many buses you put on the grid.. they still have to compete with cars and are subject to the gridlock caused by even minor accidents.

Or.. are you thinking a new bridge and a bus only corridor from West Seattle is in the offing?

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootchman...

it doesn't take a dose of green to figure out that adding an hour to your commute every time there is a fender bender makes transportation in and out of West Seattle a relevant issue.

The reduced flow from the recent hwy 99 restrictions and the resulting back-up t I-5 makes even the smallest accident reverberate through the system...

and.. there are no workarounds... unless you would like a tour through Southgate and Burien on your way back to West Seattle...

yup.. it actually was faster to go all of the way out to Burien to get home the other day when something on the West Seattle Bridge brought traffic to a halt.

ouch :(

Posted 11 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

kootch: that's pretty funny coming from a conservative.

before you go making plans to develop a 15-story mixed-use condo building, i'd suggest we ask city engineers how much more capacity our 100-year-old sewer system can handle.

and i'm going to bet dollars to doughnuts that it's due for a huge upgrade, especially if we do as you suggest and increase the load on that system by packing people in and stacking them up.

and how do you propose we pay for major infrastructure improvements?

i guess the perfect libertarian answer would be to sell infrastructure systems to private industry and let someone make a profit at the same time, right?

Posted 11 months ago #
redblack
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metrognome: you feel the same way about spending $2 billion on in-city light rail as i do about spending $4 billion on DBT. i.e. i haven't heard a cogent argument for that expense.

Posted 11 months ago #
Magpie
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Working downtown and taking the bus for over 30 years, many downtown employers subsidize their employee bus passes (I only pay $20 per month for all zone). I consider myself very fortunate (it used to be free, but as of January, we have to pick up some cost and of course, there were the complainers). If you work directly in downtown, buses are the only way to go for work, but I work on the outskirts of town and it is easier for me to walk the 3/4 mile than take the bus due to bad connection times. I figure I can use the exercise.

That said, parking downtown at many lots is $10 for early bird for 10 hours (sign on Benaroya just yesterday). Parking at my employer is $50 per month.If I drove, it might save me at least 5 hours in commuting, (on the viaduct), but when would I have time to read my book?

Many low income people take the bus as they have no other transportation, I would have no problem paying an extra $40 per year (we have 2 vehicles, one we hardly ever use)to ensure that my fellow Seattleite has a bus to take at a reasonable cost when they need it.

If there was light rail to a hub (like the junction, morgan junction and Admiral and 35th and Avalon,) buses could serve the rest of West Seattle. These are where most of the people get off. Hmm, sounds like the monorail...

I can't believe that we are so concerned about a $20 fee that is the equivalent cost of 6-7 gallons of gas purchased over a year.

There are just a few people on this forum that seem to think helping people less fortunate borders on socialism..

Posted 11 months ago #
Genesee Hill
Member Profile

metrognome:

You are VASTLY under-estimating the ability of light rail to conquer hills. I do not mean to quibble with you. I like your posts.

And, I realize I OFTEN get carried away on these forums!!!

But, light rail has an incredible ability to ascend rather steep hills. Four percent grades for light rail is not a big hindrance!

Posted 11 months ago #

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