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Lies, and the lying liars who tell them

Started 1 year ago by JanS
Latest reply from redblack

JanS
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There are many "distortions" to the truth this year, as we get into election mode fullswing. Have you a favorite one? I'll start:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/opinion/24sun1.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Posted 1 year ago #
Franci
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I just returned from Las Vegas where I couldn't believe the distortions the candidates were accusing each other of.. My favorite was two friends having a conversation about a candidate, it went something like this. "Did you know that Candidate A passed a law that allows rapists to get a perscription for Viagra?".

In reality Candidate A voted for the healthcare reform bill - and this is how they chose to attack. Weak very very weak.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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i was in Arizona and heard the same kind of lies about the health bill and it's impact on local healthcare... including that because of it local emergency rooms are shutting their doors...

what i heard that was worse though was the large number of democrats who said they wouldn't be voting because the democrats wasting their money worse than the republicans...

you tell a lie enough times and people believe it :(

Posted 1 year ago #
Smitty
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I heard one about five years ago that Bush wanted to privatize social security. People still believe that he wanted everyone to move 100% of their SS to the stock market. In reality the proposal would allow you to put "up to" 33% if you had 20 years+ before retirement.

Another good one had to do with Palin saying she could see Russia from her house - never said it - although SNL did. Now it's considered a fact.

Like they say "a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on..."

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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Here's an alternative point of view. It's an article from the Associated Press that looks at what could be a trend: employers dropping existing coverage in favor of government-subsidized plans.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101024/ap_on_re_us/us_employer_health_plans

From the article:

The new health care law wasn't supposed to undercut employer plans that have provided most people in the U.S. with coverage for generations.

But last week a leading manufacturer told workers their costs will jump partly because of the law. Also, a Democratic governor laid out a scheme for employers to get out of health care by shifting workers into taxpayer-subsidized insurance markets that open in 2014.

Apparently Obama thought single-payer (or even a strong public option) wouldn't fly, so he didn't fight for it. The result was a system that leaves the market very much in place but tells providers what products they must provide, without doing anything to limit prices.

Consider this new rule, in place now, that says there can be no lifetime cap on coverage. Does anyone seriously think insurance companies are going to say, Oh well. Looks like we'll just have to swallow the cost of that.

—No. Of course not. Insurance companies are simply going to pass that extra expense along to all their insureds. In the same way, employers are going to pass THEIR new costs along to employees. And what's to stop them? Nothing in the Obama plan, unfortunately. In fact, if the cost of providing insurance or complying with regs becomes an undue burden, employers may simply drop coverage all together, telling their workers: Sorry, folks. You're on your own now.

Also from the AP article:

"The economics of dropping existing coverage is about to become very attractive to many employers, both public and private," said Gov. Phil Bredesen, D-Tenn.

Is this really going to happen in a big way? No one knows. But I think there is cause for concern. In any case, the next two years will tell us whether Mr. Obama's decision to go halfway on health care was a good idea or not.

I say it was not a good idea. Obama and the Dems shouldna sold us out on the public option. And now they're gonna find out why . . .

– David

P.S. Is this maybe a good time to talk about how we could have paid for a public health care option with the money we're wasting on war?

Oh, it's not?

Sorry.

Posted 1 year ago #
waterworld
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Smitty: On the issue of what Sarah Palin said about seeing Alaska: I'm sure you know that what Palin really said in the interview with Charles Gibson is that "you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska." The reason the statement was so deserving of criticism and mockery is that she was citing this fact, and the fact that Russia is Alaska's "next door neighbor," as reasons why she had particular insight into foreign policy involving Russia.

Palin didn't help herself when she elaborated (in the Katie Couric interview) on the initial statement by asserting that the shared border enhanced her foreign policy credentials because "when Putin rears his head," and flies his planes into American airspace, he crosses into Alaska, and the United States conversely monitors Russia by flying its planes out of Alaska.

On both occasions, network interviewers lobbed her softballs -- essentially open-ended opportunities for her to tout anything in her foreign policy resume -- and Palin struck out. Not only that, Palin revealed in those interviews that she did not even know what the Bush Doctrine is.

Americans might remember the caricature of Palin's performance better than the real one, but they didn't miss the point that Palin equated her proximity to Russia with expertise regarding Russia. Fortunately, Americans realized that comments like these demonstrated why Palin was totally unqualified to be second in command to the President.

Posted 1 year ago #
Smitty
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So....did she say it or not? I'm confused.

Nine out of ten libtards think she did - and not for the "nuanced" reasons you state. They really think she said it.

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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Smitty, do you think Palin is a bright, intelligent person qualified to be anything more than a mouth piece on Fox? No need to spin, just yes or no.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Smitty..

putting 1/3 of your money into the stock market instead of social security would "privatize" part of your social security income...
instead of investing in a government insured pension you would be speculating in the private stock market..

that's what privatization is.

like the privatization of our retirement funds...

which created captive "retirement" money for stock market speculation ...
money that would have made more in a CD after all the ups and downs of the market..
and will likely to be worth less at retirement than when it was invested if by some luck the original capital still exists....

that privatization...
what a great idea that was.

that is.. for the top 2%.
they made real riches off of our captive money...

privatizing 1/3 of social security funds would create even more captive money for the stock market and tranfer even more wealth to the wealthy...

would putting financial pressure on the program by diverting funds ...

not such a great idea for those who will need to depend upon that money when they retire.

but that's the idea.. isn't it.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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DP...

"what could be a trend: employers dropping existing coverage in favor of government-subsidized plans."

and this is a bad thing because?

do you think we could make it possible for employers to buy into the government run single payer system ?

that's one way to skin the cat.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Smitty

Lord you make me laugh

"So....did she say it or not? I'm confused.

Nine out of ten libtards think she did - and not for the "nuanced" reasons you state. They really think she said it."

No.. nine out of ten libtards don't think she said that...

but nine out of ten Faux news listeners think that nine out of ten libtards think she said that.

the fair and balanced reporting of their favorite teevee station told them so.

most of us libtards can tell the difference between entertainment and news...
I will venture that at least 9 out of 10 can...

the ability to distinguish the difference is what causes us to become liberals in the first place :)))

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Carson...

you don't think that Smitty will answer that one honestly do you?

Either he thinks she is...
or he really wants to sell the idea that she is to those who aren't smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

either way he isn't likely to answer that one...

of course he could counter that it is sexist to assume that she isn't smart enough to govern since she obviously is smart enough to parlay her nomination into a highly lucrative career as a celebrity for both herself and her daughter... a fitting example for young republican girls everywhere..

it appears ignorance and unwed motherhood can really pay off... who needs school?

and who needs and educated populace anyway.. too politically unreliable...
as long as someone... somewhere in the world... is educating workers.

Posted 1 year ago #
waterworld
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Smitty: what are you confused about? Palin said you can see Russia from land in Alaska. Not specifically from her house. You can watch the exchange on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL86v8NoGk

And the Katie Couric interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nokTjEdaUGg&feature=fvw

The difference between the SNL version and her own is meaningless in terms of what people concluded about her foreign policy expertise.

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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JoB,

Of course its a trap question. I would love to see her as the face of the new right wing, but deep down, most are the right are still smart enough to let her be anything more than a well rehearsed sound bite.

She reminds me of a saying, "smart like rock, quick like tree"

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Carson..

I wouldn't love to see Sarah as the face of the new right wing after hearing dyed in the wool.. too old to change spots now.. republicans defend her.

they may be smart enough to see through her..
but are not smart enough to walk away from the political machine that promotes her.

She was the republican candidate for Vice President in the last election... and otherwise reasonable republicans voted for her.

That fact alone is frightening enough.

Posted 1 year ago #
dobro
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Waterworld- It seems that smitty is confused about a lot of things...doesn't seem to know what the word privatization means...apparently doesn't know how to use the google machine-it took me 2 seconds to find that clip of Palin's line...actually thinks he knows what 9 out of 10 "libtards" (i'm sure Sarah wouldn't like that term) think...

A better question might be- what ISN'T smitty confused about :)

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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LOL.. i concede the floor tonight...
it's past my bedtime anyway:)

:) hubby says i yield the floor..
i don't have to concede anything:)

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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lord, I only have 3 days until I need to be somewhere ... I don't think that is enough time to list all the Republican lies ... here's my top dozen:
1) Fox News: Fair and Balanced. We Report, You Decide
2) Sarah Palin: death panels
3) George HW Bush: Read My Lips -- No New Taxes (actually, that's a libtard lie -- he said No New Texas, which is true)
4) Glenn Beck: anything that comes out of his mouth or his chalk
5) Richard Nixon: I am NOT a crook
6) Rush Limbaugh: overexercising is causing the health care crisis
7) RNC political hatchet ads against Patty Murray implying that the economic crisis is her fault.
8) Karl Rove: anything he writes in the Wall Street Journal or says on Fox Noise or thinks
9) The concept that Dubya served in the military
10) George W Bush: Mission Accomplished (by the way, where is Dubya these days ... if he was such a great president, he would be out campaigning for his party)
11) Ann Coulter: anything she gets paid to say, but particularly her pit bull attack against Max Cleland
12) Newt Gingrich and his Contract On America.

tafn

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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metrognome..

you forgot to throw in the 13th to make it a baker's dozen:)

13) the tea party movement is a spontaneous political movement unaffiliated with the republican party

Posted 1 year ago #
Smitty
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Carson, the answer is NO - but I LOVE how she riles the Left.

"Privatize" social security means exactly that. Most people assume it means 100%. Heck,to this day the Left always says "if we had put ALL your money into the market in 2005.....it would be worth CRAP today.....". They DO NOT say 1/3 of YOUNGER peoples money, and you all know it.

metro - you forgot Dan Rather!

dobro - post the link - I have yet to see her saying that she can see Russia from her home. Thanks in advance.

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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Smitty,

wow, you shocked me, good for you. Now, stop getting upset over picking apart statements, both sides do it, both sides have done it before, both sides know it works, both sides will keep doing it. Its effective like it or not and legal.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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smitty: 1% is too much. "if we just skim a little of that wage deduction we can make ourselves some serious dough!"

no. not everything is for sale.

i'm tired of captains of industry trying to get their fat little fingers in everyone's pie while evading responsibility to their country.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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Smitty...another of my pet peeves is people who do not read AND absorb. It was stated above that no, she did not say she saw it from her home. There was a great explanation in post #13 by waterworld, accompanied by a you tube video. It is self explanatory...don't play dumb. We know you're not...:)

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Smitty...

so you don't think Palin is smart enough to govern... but you would have placed her in the VP seat of a man with a serious heart condition anyway?

that speaks volumes as to your lack of respect for your country.

it logically follows that the only reason you would elect a loose cannon like Palin in that position is that it doesn't matter to you what clown you put in that seat because you don't think they have any real power..

that pesky logic thing won't let me go...

if you don't believe the presidency has any real power you don't believe even half a word of what you have been preaching about Obama...

all of that big business fear exposed as nothing more than a political power grab :(

And you think no-one can see through that crap.. or at least not enough of us to make a difference ;0

I will agree that money can buy a lot...
but not everything.

Posted 1 year ago #
dobro
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smitty-i was commenting on waterworld's posted link with Palin's correct quote.

you know, when I read comments that begin with
"Most people assume" or "9 out of 10 people think" or "Some people say" I know I'm about to hear a load of BS. Personally, I'm much more interested in discussions that start with " I think that..." Then we can actually talk about the reality that you or I perceive rather than a bunch of lies that the spinmeisters and lying liars throw out to distract us from stuff that actually affects our lives.

Posted 1 year ago #
dobro
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Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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uh oh, dobro..at a loss for words? or self-censoring? ;->

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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JoB -- I thought about the Tea Party as #13 after I logged off, so thanks for adding it.
Smitty -- not sure what you meant by your comment about Dan Rather. If you were referring to the Bush TexANG letters, Rather didn't tell a lie, as he thought the letters were genuine. At worst, he didn't have them authenticated. Now, if, by including that in the lie list, you meant that that whole episode was engineered by Karl Rove to ensure a Bushwa re-election by diverting attention away from what a lousy president Rove, I mean Bush, had been, you are most likely correct. It is interesting to note that this 'controversy' forced 60 Minutes to delay an expose on Bush lying us into Iraq until after the election, which would have been exactly what Rove wanted. I mean, come on, who would have been dumb enough to fake a 1970's era letter on a computer unless they wanted it to be uncovered as a fake to destroy the opposition. Interesting that the person who faxed the letters to CBS burned the originals immediately after (you can't authenticate duplicates.) However, we will never know unless Rove does a Lee Atwater on his deathbed and confesses his sins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy#Accusations_of_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater#Illness

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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metrognome...

i suspect we will hear more from Rove sooner than that. I don't think he can resist bragging.

Posted 1 year ago #
dobro
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metrognome- that Dan Rather thing was a quote from smitty's post that I accidentally pasted into my post. I've edited it out. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
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dobro -- actually, I think that was my mistake; I should have directed my comment to smitty. I think I got dizzy from all the scrolling up and down. I'll fix my post. Interesting that that was the only 'lie' that he could come up with as a rebuttal. Good thing I didn't mention Watergate or Agnew or Swiftboating or Iran-Contra. He might have come up with something really good like, um ... how the Democrats foisted a useless program like the National Parks system on the country.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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if we want to talk history
i think the the republicans foisted social security on the country :->

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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Sooo . . . let's see here . . . if Republicans (who are admittedly partisan) lie in order to win elections . . . that's reprehensible.

But . . . if a respected and ostensibly neutral national news journalist (Dan Rather) releases damaging material on a Republican presidential candidate right before the election —and that material that later turns out to be wrong . . . that's somehow ok?

That's just a little problem of authentication?

Gimme a break . . .

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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DP...

here we go with the context thing again.

the documents that were released on the 60 minutes program were not authenticated...

however.. and this is important... the information they contained was vetted and found to be both consistent with military operations at the time they were written..
and accurate in content by the secretary to the alleged author...

and not being able to prove their authenticity is the same thing as republicans intentionally lieing to win elections?

you would have let your kids get away with that?
i don't think so.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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and guess what...Dan Rather lost his job. Can we please fire those people who are purposefully filling the airwaves with blatant lies? Or are we just arguing here to "one-up", DP? I know that there are untruths in some of the more left leaning TeeVee ads, too..and to me that's just as reprehensible. Now...one thing I will say..a lot of the ads that are on the telly right now are from neither the candidates nor the parties...they're from G-d knows who, because they can...and they have balls, I gotta tell ya..and it's despicable! We have met the enemy, and methinks it's us.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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I think there should be a new rule...all Political ads on TeeVee have to be pulled 10 days before the election. Whaddya think? The silence would be golden...maybe people would even read the Voters Pamphlet before voting!

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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I'd vote for that. i think we have just found a great use for the initiative process :)

In Portland Oregon there is a measure on the ballot that would effectively end the purchase of city elections by controlling the election process.

They want to campaign the old fashioned way by shaking hands and convincing constituents that you have their best interests at heart...

imagine that.

and i think it is just possible they might pass it:) i have hope.

Posted 1 year ago #
acemotel
Member Profile

>>>>Palin didn't help herself when she elaborated (in the Katie Couric interview) on the initial statement by asserting that the shared border enhanced her foreign policy credentials because "when Putin rears his head," and flies his planes into American airspace, he crosses into Alaska, and the United States conversely monitors Russia by flying its planes out of Alaska.

oh, ha ha ha ha. Thank you for reminding me of that moronic incident. If only it were a joke or a reality show, or something. that woman should have been retired to the arctic tundra ecosystem, never to be seen in public again.

Posted 1 year ago #
dhg
Member Profile

Nothing on Reichert here? I know he is not in our district but come on, his ads are on the tv. He's saying that NO ONE will play politics with healthcare on his watch. (Somehow the fact that we have to have bake sales for kidneys is ok with him.)

HE'S the one playing politics with healthcare by voting against any meaningful change.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

dhg...

his ads play politics with healthcare...

but he sure looks good lieing doesn't he.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

I have been thinking about this...

and i think our side is going about this the wrong way..
they are countering attack ads with attack ads so it all looks like some big trash talk contest instead of some pretty serious decisions people need to make.

It's too late for this election since the dollars are already spent on attack ads...
but i think that our candidates ought to go on the air.. look straight into the camera.. and tell people exactly what is at stake with their decisions...

i don't think we can win at this political game by out nasty-ing them... all that does is allow them to control the public conversation.
We need to change the conversation.

I know Obama is trying to do that in his addresses.. but that effort hasn't trickled down far enough into the democratic party.

Although i contributed money early in the campaigns.. i stopped once the attack ads flew.

if i had the energy i would donate time to the phone banks.. and i encourage everyone out there who can to do so.

perhaps putting sanity into the vote is as simple as speaking with people one to one about what matters to them....

and i think we would get further by asking that question and answering it than by repeating campaign rhetoric.

we need to take our elections back from the gamers
and put people back into we the people.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

Well said, JoB!
Great idea, JanS!

One last jab, then I shall "retire from the floor."

http://roominate.com/blogg/cool_dan_luke.mp3

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DP..

what is authentication?

it is some expert willing to lay their reputation on the line that something is authentic...

an amazing number of fakes have been granted legitimacy that way.

Did the crew at 60 minutes validate the source material? yes.

did they authenticate the letters? no

have the letters ever been proven fakes? no

but those letters based on source materials that might have been faked did put George W's military record to rest...

and killed the story questioning the WMD materials just before his re-election.

pretty good for a President whose strongest endorsement by the local st Paul paper was that even though he hadn't fulfilled a single campaign promise.. he still might. One might ask who made out like a bandit here?

Was it pure luck on their part or Rovian manipulation?

whether he pulled this one off or not...
I personally think Rove has finally trumped Machiavelli and deserves some current linguistic recognition ..

don't you?

Posted 1 year ago #
dhg
Member Profile

I think it would be better for Patty and other to emphasize the positive. TALK about the health care bill accomplishments, SHOW the children and college age kids who are now covered, PROJECT an ideal for our upcoming legislative sessions. That would get people excited. Negative messages excite no one.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Too bad we aren't running campaigns

Posted 1 year ago #
WD
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Sorry... error.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Make sure Jan is your co-chair.... please!

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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care to explain that last statement?

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Tween the two of you.. it would be a republican landslide!

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
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kootch:

never mind.

Posted 6 months ago #

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