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Let the bickering begin..

Started 8 months ago by JanS
Latest reply from JoB

JanS
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because I know it will :)

http://www.politicususa.com/en/the-consequences-of-evil-republican-legislation-since-2010

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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..

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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Jan, I'm a fan . . .

Hey! I just made a rhyme.
In the very first line!

Anyway, I'm a fan, Jan. And you know that I am. But this post might be just a skosh more enticing to us bulls if you gave us some of your own thoughts on the "Politicus" article, instead of just waving it like a red flag in our faces.

For example, do you think Republicans are simply wrong to be against abortion? Or do you just think that they're going about it the wrong way? If so, how SHOULD they proceed instead?

As an ungulate, I don't feel strongly about abortion. But I can see how intelligent animals could disagree on this. And frankly, if abortion was my issue, and I was strongly against it, I'd probably support what some of these Republican animals are doing to restrict it.

See what I'm sayin'?

Yours truly, and with much snorting and pawing of the dirt,

—B. taurus

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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DP. Abortion is legal. Period. It's a medical procedure. How many medical procedures do you know that are voted on by Congress to be legal or illegal? Of course, my feelings are...keep your moral attitude out of my uterus, and the uteruses of all women. Abortion will not stop because of a law. It will continue, and go back into back alleys, and cause much harm to women. You cannot legislate morality. And to make it illegal to have a miscarriage? Are they effing serious? "You've lost your baby, now we're gonna throw you in jail"...how righteous of them !

But the list is not just about abortion..it's about a lot of stuff. I know how I feel about it. I don't need to go into a long discourse about it. But there are some who will. There are some who think the right leaning folks in our gov't. can do no wrong, that if there are any problems , it's all because of those nasty liberals..you know, the one's who want socialism, the "destroyers" of our country. Yet, facts are facts...and I just wanted opinions of people on how they feel about what the Repubs are up to.

Thank you very much :)

(now, if they were only so voracious about getting this country working again, instead of trying to defeat Obama at every turn)

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Well, interesting that Joe Biden critiqued China for its enforced abortion policy. I can show many examples of "medical procedures" that the state mandates..for the moment there is no state mandate for abortions..but times change. wait until the government takes over health care..recessive gene disorders, low IQ parents, depression prone parents..history of heart disease, history of kidney disease..abort..I can see it now...a Federal health care system..they will use the damn commerce clause...Tis a slippery slope... fast forward 20, 30 years... when resources get scarce... or go backwards 60 years... or today in times of famine and poverty... when children are sacrificed routinely. I can understand the rigid respecters of life. Jan you throw your "moral" stand out here all the time, and critique others... for some it's a deeply and profoundly held belief moral belief that life in utero is life. A homicide that takes the life of a mother and a fetus is a double murder count....A wanted fetus is life...and unwanted fetus is not? I don't think it as that simple. One thing for certain, it should never receive state funding, under any circumstance. When state or federal funds are involved.... it's the perfect and legitimate right of a people in opposition to voice that opposition. If you choose to use the power of the state to legitimize abortion... be prepared to have opposing views try to use state powers to de-legitimize it. .
(We ARE trying to get this country back to work... getting rid of Obama is step one, and I must say it looks better and better every day.) I won't go to the barricades though... but i believe in the rights of people to express their conscience.

Posted 8 months ago #
Smitty
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"(now, if they were only so voracious about getting this country working again, instead of trying to defeat Obama at every turn)"

Those are one in the same.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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Kootchman...for those who think it's a deeply moral issue with them, here's my answer. Don't get an abortion. That's simple. I don't care what might happen in the future. I don't give a rat's behind what China might do healthwise for their citizens. I don't live there. Joe Biden was making nice - frankly, the next Repub prez will send someone to make nice, too. The Repubs scream about less government intruding in our lives all the time, yet they think they have the right to have gov't. mandate this one procedure? Hypocritical, if you ask me. Until you have gone there, keep your beliefs and your trap shut about it. Thank you very much !

And , Smitty, no they aren't I haven't seen any cogent anything come from the Republicans about jobs and the economy. They just want the tax rate to be zero. I certainly hope the next Repub prez, when there is one, has those tough decisions to make. Then we'll see how easy it is.

And, here's a question that always pops into my mind when it comes to abortion, and a fetus being a person from the minute the egg meets the sperm...call it silly , but..can I insure it? You know, in case it decides to not live, for some reason. Just a what if question.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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what I find interesting about this discussion is...that article had a whole list of things about the Repubs, and what they've done or haven't done, yet the only thing the males bring up in this discussion is abortion..why is that?

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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OK, Jan. You've added value by giving us some of your own thoughts. I appreciate that.

Personally, I singled out abortion because I feel it's the most compelling of all the issues that divide Liberals and Conservatives. No other motive there that I can think of . . .

Now then, on the question of whether Congress, or the Supreme Court, or even the Constitution, decides an issue once and for all . . . I think it's fair to say that, while there are relative degrees of decidedness, nothing is ever really FINALLY decided. Why, there's even bickering over what the 10 Commandments mean! ('Specially that one about not killing folks.)

Anyway . . .

No matter what Congress thinks today, Congress can always flip-flop tomorrow.

The Supreme Court can flip-flip, too.

Constitutional amendments can be addded.
Constitutional amendments can be substracted.

Abortion laws can be relaxed.
Abortion laws can be tightened.

Watch the pendulum go back and forth, Jan.
See how it moves?

back and forth
back and forth
back and forth

Your eyelids are getting heavy now, Jan.
Very heavy.

You are getting sleepy.
Verrrrryyyyy sssssleeeeeeeeeppppppyyyyyy.

Posted 8 months ago #
Smitty
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"They just want the tax rate to be zero. "

Who said that?

Republicans I know think government is necessary and needs to be funded - just not bloated. We all agree in safety nets and government assistance - I was a free lunch kid for goodness sake - but miraculously didn't starve to death during the summer break. We just don't think that government is the solutions to all our ills - like some liberals do.

Most also think that tax rates are sufficient and fair. "Fair share" means different things to different people and will never, ever be agreed upon.

As to a woman's right to choose? I agree that the "woman" (or man) in the womb deserves a choice.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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Smitty

if more men made the choice to use birth control there wouldn't be such a need for abortions...

so.. just an idea...
why don't we criminialize men impregnating women

let the howling begin

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Mighty selective we are eh JanS... "just don't have them".. funny how you will throw individual choice out the window when it "fits" your agenda that trends liberal. The state has castrated, lobotomized, irradiated, sterilized, infected, committed .... in the name of science, social engineering.. etc. The left went looking for a constitutional abortion "right" and found it with a liberal court, Here comes the other side... doing the same.. Amazing... you have praised the notion that a constitution is an "evolving, living document"... in one period, one iteration, a liberal panel of justices decided Roe v Wade. Well, here we are again... it is not so secure now.. that "evolving" document is heading towards a contrarian point of view. Funny how the left is so wildly in love with using the government to socially engineer....but so against it when it doesn't fit their paradigm. Here;s a simple fact...elections and the representatives should decide. If it is repugnant for Oklahomans to permit terminating life in vitro... so be it. Oklahomans should not be forced to live with urban, coastal values if they don't want to. My oh my aren;t we "strong" women JoB... "men impregnating women"?.... why don't we criminalize women who allow themselves to be impregnated? Both statements are ridiculous..takes two to tango.. (sometimes more..) The left joyously is willing to tell me, how much of my income they are entitled to, how many mpg my car should get, what my property taxes should be, how tolerant i need to be of illegal immigration, what type of medical care I need and what medical care I have to provide others,.... paper or plastic.... it never ends.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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As to the thread... as soon as I see Noam Chomsky quoted... I am reminded of the expression... "assumes facts not in evidence"...

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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where did you see Noam Chomsky quoted? Whatever are you talking about?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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Jeez Jan .. ya give us a link... only to find out you don't even read your own material.... See the section on collective bargaining... how far did you get before you just saw "red" and posted?

Posted 8 months ago #
Smitty
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"if more men made the choice to use birth control there wouldn't be such a need for abortions..."

Or, just keep it in their pants, altogether. Granted, about 90% of the responsibility lies with the man (IMO), but both sides should be accountable for unwanted pregnancies.

I just don't believe in killing an unborn child (fetus, zygote, whatever makes you feel better) for convenience sake. It's sad.

Posted 8 months ago #
dhg
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Reminds me of when the Vatican took out a full page ad in the newspaper asking to "Start a dialog" on abortion and then proposed that the common point we can all agree on is that abortion is murder. I don't think their attempt to reach out was met with much success.

If the Left were to take out an ad asking to start a dialog with the Right and proposed common ground, I think it would be:
1. Less government is good
2. Less spending is good
but that does not get us very far.

On the subject of healthcare, Kootchman imagines a sci-fi future where government dictates who gets health care. In the present, those decisions are left to insurance company bureaucrats who are rewarded for denying coverage. Which system is better?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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well we will see very shortly.... no cuts to Medicaid... not to you... better check with your provider though.... I have yet to see the guts of the new Obama stimulus package.. and I may be completely wrong... my source is a FOX talking head... but your provider and hospital will get a 30 per cent reimbursement whack.... now call me naive... but how many providers will just not take new patients or, ya get the doc in a box treatment... 15 minutes ... you can't force docs to provide care ... in fact .. it's tough now to get a Medicare doc... or IF you do get one... forget an appointment in a timely manner... that is rationed health care ...my health insurance works just fine... I am very satisfied. Unless he is on vacation.. I have never waited longer than a week for a routine appt... Your Medicarie just got cut 30%.....is that not double speak or what? "I won't cut your salary... but I am charging you $100 bucks a week for (fill in the blank).... it says right on my primary cares check in.... "We are sorry, we are not accepting new Medicare patients at this time... how many layoffs in medical offices are coming with this gem?

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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dhg, I like your thinking on this. Since we seem to be on abortion for the moment, I wonder what "common ground" would look like on that. How about this for starters:

1) Men should admit that they can never truly understand how women feel about it.

2) Both sides should admit that the issue is not black and white, regardless of what preachers and Supreme Court justices say.

3) Abortion should not be considered a form of birth control.

It seems to me that many battles in the current "culture wars" would end in a truce if each party would just admit that the other side may have some right on their side as well.

But no . . . Pro-abortion folks reason that if abortion is legal, it is therefore a universal and affirmative good, and must be made easily available to the masses, funded by tax dollars, accessible to minors without parental consent, etc. regardless of how the other side feels.

Conversely, anti-abortion folks seem to feel that if abortion is wrong it must be universally wrong, and should be prohibited even in cases of rape and incest. Moreover, they want to define abortion as broadly as possible, restricting access to the "morning after pill" and birth control in general, and giving pharmacists the option not to dispense it.

At their fringes, the two sides would seem to be very far apart. Still, for all that, I don't think this has to be a battle to the death. I think abortion advocates could at least acknowledge that the other side has legitimate moral qualms about it, even if they don't agree with those qualms. And for their part, abortion foes could acknowledge that democracy trumps theocracy.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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" It is, as Noam Chomsky writes, an attack on democracy itself."

Out of that whole article, you single out 11 words, and reject it on a simple quote. Yes, I saw it, but it didn't change how I feel about the article. That quote did not have the most meaning of the entire article. I was too busy letting the rest of it sink in. You, on the other hand, seem to be not paying attention to the rest. I read the article more than once. You? I just didn't dwell on a very, very short quote. It had nothing to do with the rest of it, now did it?

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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I am insulted that men think that women, for the most part, use abortion as birth control, DP. I have never had to make the decision, but I know women who have, and it ain't an easy one.l Yes, men will never, ever have to make that decision, or know the pain of it. 'Nuff said.

The rest? There will always be arguments about it. But the legalization of abortion did not make a criminal out of anyone. Making it illegal will, and that is forcing someone else's morality on the woman who will inevitable get one illegally, if the law changes. And would the man who got her pregnant also be a criminal? Of course not. Funny how that works.

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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I am insulted that men think that women, for the most part, use abortion as birth control, DP

You go right ahead and be insulted, Jan, but I personally know three women who have done just that. For these women, getting an abortion must have been a pretty casual choice, because they made it repeatedly, and without consulting their partners.

I'm not saying this is typical of women who get abortions. But it definitely happens.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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not on those 11 words... it is a liberal rant and rag... I rejected it on that..Chomsky was the proverbial icing on the cake. Some of the sections looked quite pragmatic and reasonable. Those evil, evil, evil republicans... that in the main ... foot the bills.

Posted 8 months ago #
oddreality
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Abortion is a religious issue and should not be legislated ...period.Women's bodies should not be legislated..period. We are not little ovens for men's progeny and should never be forced to be that.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
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your progeny too... ?

Posted 8 months ago #
oddreality
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I had my progeny ,thanks. Fixed it so I would not have anymore.
But accidents do happen and no woman should be forced to carry what is essentially an alien being inside of her if she does not want it there.PERIOD.

If men want to control all aspects of procreation then they should get a nice uterus transplanted into themselves and try it.[ok I know we aren't there yet but I pray one day we can do just that!!]I guarantee you that abortions would not only be legal but easily available if men had to do it.Pregnancy is not a walk in the park.It changes your life forever.

Posted 8 months ago #
oddreality
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For the record I am not pro abortion but I am totally pro choice.I could never have had an abortion ...well I was never put into a position where I had to decide either so can't really say for sure...but I think not, it is not in my makeup to have one. But who am I to tell some poor struggling desperate woman that she needs to bear a child no matter the personal trauma be it mental or physical??Who am I?? Who are you??

Posted 8 months ago #
WorldCitizen
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What's the issue with Chomsky? Too smart and relevant for you? Or do you have a problem with poignancy?

And I think we can all agree abortion is quite the bummer. Good thing it's legal though, huh?

Posted 8 months ago #
Smitty
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"no woman should be forced to carry what is essentially an alien being inside of her if she does not want it there.PERIOD."

Unreal.

Quick, come feel my alien kick!

Posted 8 months ago #
oddreality
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Ever see the Invasion of the Body Snatchers??? How about "Aliens"?

Whatever..if you do not want it there it's an alien to your body. Incredible that you would think it was not.Just something unwanted living inside your own body...alien get it??Not an actual outer space alien...geesh...

Posted 8 months ago #
EmmyJane
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Abortion, in my opinion, is an area that people are going to always have strong, conflicting opinions on. One side is not going to sway the other. You know what else that reminds me of? Everything that Republicans and Democrats are fighting over. So like all the other issues, I think we need to stop trying to push our beliefs on others and understand and respect where the other view is coming from and find some middle ground. Just my opinion.

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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Well spoke, EmmyJ.

We are not little ovens for men's progeny and should never be forced to be that.

Nobody said you were, odd r . . .

Look at it this way. We all want men to take responsibility for their children, right? But with responsibilities come rights.

Fortunately, men now have to take responsibility for their children; the law has seen to that. But according to some people, men should not have ANY rights when it comes to a decision of whether to bring their child into the world in the first place.

As things presently stand, a woman can:

1) decide to become pregnant without telling her partner about it.

2) decide to carry the baby to term without telling her partner about it.

3) decide to abort without telling her partner about it.

Any of these decisions can have profound consequences for a man. Permanent, life changing consequences. And now you're going to tell me that the man doesn't need to have a say, or even be informed? That strikes me as very cruel.

I, too, think that abortion should be legal. But I don't object to laws that would require the father to be at least notified and to have his opinion heard before the final decision is made.

Posted 8 months ago #
Smitty
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"Abortion, in my opinion, is an area that people are going to always have strong, conflicting opinions on. One side is not going to sway the other. You know what else that reminds me of? Everything that Republicans and Democrats are fighting over. So like all the other issues, I think we need to stop trying to push our beliefs on others and understand and respect where the other view is coming from and find some middle ground. Just my opinion."

I think you are correct, BUT what about people who said that about slavery? What if someone said that about murder? Taxes? Some things (life in this case) need to be fought for - especially when the "alien beings" (half of whom are woman) are not given the "choice" that some people hold so dear..

Posted 8 months ago #
oddreality
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Smitty, in my life I have had a woman tell me that she felt like her body had been invaded by an alien...so why do have a problem with that term??

Sorry DBP, lots of men out there still want their women barefoot and preggers..a little woman oven for breeding purposes.It's true it's out there.Some men [really watch Judge Judy sometimes] have several women pregnant at the same time...should all of them be forced to carry to term?

Smitty, If the baby "alien" [they are only aliens if you don't want them other wise they are your special loved baby...and more than half are women..]is kicking they have waited too long to abort..my view only.... Used to be you had no idea you were pregnant for about 4 months. Now you can find out in days.They are not kicking then...

Emmy...unfortunatly the middle ground in the abortion debate is......ta-da.... choice.no one is forced to do anything.That is how it ought to be in a perfect world. But you are so right no one ever changes their mind...

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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DP, I understand what you're saying. Now..if there are laws that say the father has to be notified, will rapists be excluded? What about abusive husbands, who could give a crap about the wife and child but just wants control? How do we deal with that? What about a 15 years old male child who impregnates a 14 yo female child...and he says that he won't give permission for an abortion that her family has decided will be the decision for them. Neither are prepared to be parents. When does waiting for the father to give or take away permission take away the choice that is should be for the woman who will carry an unwanted child for 9 months, sometimes to the detriment of her health? Get complicated, doesn't it? So, I'm asking how you feel about scenario like that...

Posted 8 months ago #
datamuse
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DBP, in principle I can agree with what you're saying.

But take that to its logical conclusion, and you potentially have a woman forced to carry a pregnancy to term even though she doesn't want to.

Otherwise--what? His opinion is heard but functionally makes no difference? I have a hard time understanding how else your scenario plays out...

Posted 8 months ago #
redblack
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DP: not sure i can let the term "pro-abortion" slide without getting my knuckles bloody.

fair warning that if you want that fight, i'm oiled up and ready to go.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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Kootch...

"JoB... "men impregnating women"?.... why don't we criminalize women who allow themselves to be impregnated? Both statements are ridiculous..takes two to tango.. "

but only one has to pay the price when pregnancy occurs...
men have always had a choice
why shouldn't women have one too?

being forced to carry a baby for 9 months because someone else thinks you should is punishment.. pure and simple... punishment that can have life long physical ramifications as well as psychological costs...

investigating miscarriages as a probable murders is criminalization of failed pregnancy...

there is already a double standard kootch...

i am simply suggesting we level the playing field

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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DP..

when a man can carry a child to term, then he should be able to make the decision whether or not to do so.

until then, insisting that a woman carry a child for 9 months simply because you impregnated her is pretty self serving.

as for those "responsibilities" men have...
tell that to the millions of children who go without the child support awarded to their mothers in their divorces ...

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
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oddreality...

I had to make that choice once and carried my child to term before giving him up for adoption...

but i funded my cousin when she found herself pregnant once again in the midst of her divorce..
and my friend who was raped by her boyfriend's best friend
and a young woman who was raped by her step-father
and...

altogether i have funded 5 abortions...

my unintended pregnancy had lifelong physical and psychological consequences...
and produced a healthy boy who came back into my life with a wife and 4 kids. One of those grand-daughters recently made me a grandma-great for the second time:)

I got lucky. The agony of giving a child up for adoption ultimately came with a happy ending for me..
but that young man who kootch would say tangoed still does not want to meet his son....

I have good friends who are nearing 80 without even knowing if their children live. That's not the kind of pain that disappears with time.

I made my choice at a time when there was a grey area.. abortion would have been possible if not legal... but my 80 yr old friends had no choice.
They were stuck away in "homes" for unwed mothers and punished for their sins.. and their children as often as not stuck in orphanages.

it's easy to see abortion as a moral choice...
but if it is a moral choice..
it is not a choice you can make for another..
not even if you are willing to take responsibility for the outcome...
and we know for a fact that the anti abortion right is not willing to take responsibility for either the unwed mother or her child

the right to life does not begin at conception and end at birth...

Posted 8 months ago #
EmmyJane
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Good point Smitty. I don't have an answer for co-existing for that one. :-)

Posted 8 months ago #
dhg
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Ah, Job, you bring tears to my eyes. You've stated it so well. As for me, I believe the soul enters with the first breath, just as it leaves with the last.

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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and we know for a fact that the anti abortion right is not willing to take responsibility for either the unwed mother or her child

No, you do not know that for a fact, JoB. You take it for a fact, however, simply because you have heard it repeated a lot. And now you're repeating it, too . . . But it's still not a fact.

Here's something I imagine to be true, although I confess that I don't know it for a fact . . . If you were to approach any person on the anti-abortion right and say: "I'm going to have a baby and I don't want it," you would be connected with a family wanting to adopt your baby AND pay for your medical bills.

What you said about "unwed mothers" might have been true once upon a time. But not anymore.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
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DP...and I imagine you are wrong. So there.

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
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Here's a little gem from the "Consequences of Evil" article Jan linked to:

In Minnesota, the Education Finance Committee is readying a funding bill that will eliminate the goal of desegregated schools. On page 53 of the legislation is a complete repeal of the school integration section of the Minnesota Administrative rules. In defense, Pat Garofalo (R-Farmington), chair of the committee, claims the goal is to change the focus to academic achievement from diversity of the student body.

Oh my stars! Changing the focus of schools back to academic achievement?

What were those reactionaries thinking?

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Smitty,

forcing a woman to carry a child to term and assume 18 years of responsibility for that child is punishing the woman for becoming pregnant.. regardless of whether the sex that created that pregnancy was consensual or not.

You worry about a "murdering" a fetus that is not a viable child until it has been successfully incubated in a woman's womb for 9 months and successfully survives birth...

but you have no problem condemning a woman to 9 months of at best limited activities and opportunities culminating with the pain of giving birth simply because she is pregnant?

passing gallstones or kidney stones is nothing in comparison with the physical agony of giving birth...

and then there is the physical damage that pregnancy inflicts on our bodies ... we don't all just drop our kids in the field and go back to work you know. Those oh so cute plumbing people adds.. you know the ones for incontinence... are aimed at women for a reason... and that's just the most obvious sign of the stress pregnancy creates in a woman's body.

And then there is the fetus...
take a look at our live birth stats. For a developed country the death rate for both mother and child in this country is abysmal. The primary cause for those abysmal stats is our unwillingness as a nation to invest in prenatal care.

Shouldn't we be as concerned with a fetus's well being both before and after it's birth as we about whether the woman has the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy?

Although it is easy to get lost in the slogans about father's rights and the "right to life"...

the fact of the matter is that we as a nation expect a woman to assume full responsibility for any possible pregnancy from the point of conception thru a viable child's 18th year.

Although a father may be required by law to provide minimal child support if he acknowledges the child or it is proven by DNA that he fathered the child... a woman has the full 24/7 responsibility of that child's welfare whether the father pays child support or not.

Are you willing to let someone else decide that you have that kind of responsibility for nearly 19 years for you?

I think not.

I have a lot of respect for those men who realize that unintended consequences can be an opportunity and convince the mothers of their children that they are willing to make a lifetime commitment with them for the well being of their child.

I believe that commitment to be the greatest deterrent to abortion.

Before we talk in terms of murder..
let's talk about responsibility.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DP...

over the years i have encountered many right to life activists.

I ask all of them the same question..
"how many children have you adopted?"

the answer is almost always a shocked .. "none".

On the few occasions that i have encountered someone who actually takes that kind of personal responsibility for unwanted children, i have engaged in long serious discussions with them about the tragedy of unintended pregnancy, the need for better pregnancy prevention efforts, the need for better prenatal care and the undeniable need for better nutrition and health care for our nation's neglected children.

We find that we agree far more than we disagree.

As for those who choose to make decisions for others but do not choose to take any responsibility...

everyone is entitled to an opinion
but they aren't entitled to make someone else pay for their choices.

Posted 8 months ago #
skeeter
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24.
oddreality
Member Profile

Abortion is a religious issue and should not be legislated ...period.Women's bodies should not be legislated..period. We are not little ovens for men's progeny and should never be forced to be that.
*********
I've never understood positions like this and I respectfully disagree with this opinion. Abortion can be debated as either a religious issue or a legal issue. On a legal level, the relevant question to ask is at what point the state has an interest in the protection of the baby/fetus/whatever you want to call it. I suspect we all agree that the state has an interest in protecting a two year-old. If a parent decided to starve a two year-old, the state, if aware, would remove the child and see to her protection. Why? Because the state has an interest in protecting the two year-old.
Those who believe abortion should be illegal may or may not be religious. Those who believe abortion should be legal may or may not be religious. The legal argument and the religious argument are completely separate. Those who believe abortion should be legal believe the state’s interest in the baby/fetus/whatever begin at birth. Those who believe abortion should be illegal believe the state’s interest in the baby/fetus/whatever begin at some point prior to birth.
To say that the abortion debate is purely religious is simply not true. Although it is a topic of religious debate, it is also a topic of legal debate with respect to protection of society’s interests – just like any other legislation.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DP..

BTW..
you show me the evidence that the religious right is willing to take responsibility for an unborn mother and her child.

Start anywhere..
Prenatal care?
medical insurance?
nutrition programs
early childhood education programs?
housing assistance?
tuition assistance?

When they say we should all "share the pain"..
What they really mean is that people without resources should shoulder the burden

Yes, some churches do choose to invest in faith based assistance programs

but the religious right draws the line at publicly funding assistance for pregnant women and children
while lobbying to enact public laws forcing women to carry any fetus to term
and penalizing her if she miscarries

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

skeeter..

if the state has the responsibility to protect a fetus..
does it not have an equal responsibility to provide prenatal care and safe medical delivery for the woman carrying that fetus?

Because there is no way around the fact that a fetus requires a healthy host environment to accomplish the successful delivery of a viable child.

on the other hand, if this is a religious question
our constitution guarantees individual religious freedom..
which would guarantee choice

Posted 8 months ago #

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