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Koran burning

Started 1 year ago by sampson1029
Latest reply from JoB

sampson1029
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Is there anything we here in Seattle can do to show the world that we do not support the burning of the Koran. I hate to think that such a small group of people can bring even more violence to our troops who are already in harms way everyday. Does anyone know how to get the word out that these people are "radicals" They do not have the support of more than probably 99.9% of the U.S. population

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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The answer is actually quite simple. Pull the troops out, lessen our need (oil) to be in their countries in the first place.

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
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That is not a simple answer. People will always have disagreements. We as a whole world depend on oil right now. I am just trying to show the world that this is a crazy uneducated man, whose actions are not condoned by most of the United States.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i am sorry i don't know how to shorten links...
but people who matter are speaking out ...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/09/08/2010-09-08_attorney_general_eric_holder_calls_rev_terry_jones_international_burnakoran_day_.html

i checked. the link runs off the page but it works.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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The Rev. Terry Jones is probably the only person supporting him self in this folly right now. This is a man of "Christian values". BS! He was kicked out of a church in Germany (that he supposedly helped found) in 2008 for dipping into the till for his personal expenses one too many times. He is estranged from his daughter. He is doing this for effect. He is misguided to put it mildly...but he , in my book, has no redeeming "Christian values". He's a hypocrite of the worst kind.

We can protest all we want, but he does have 1st Amendment rights.Funny how that works, even for the likes of him.

Posted 1 year ago #
Sue
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sampson, there is an interfaith reading of the Qu'ran scheduled on 9/11 at a Unitarian Universalist church in Kirkland that I just heard about "to remember the victims of 9/11 and to bring awareness and respect for all religious beliefs." http://www.northlakeuu.org/news/9-11-2010.html

JoB, to shorten links, you can go to either tinyurl.com or bit.ly and enter the long URL and you can get a replacement very short one to share that will link to the original one.

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
Member Profile

I travel the world a lot. It is such a bummer that ALL travelers will be more unsafe because of this man's actions. Thank god I am a duel citizen. The minute I get outside this country next time I will have to travel on my other passport.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Sue.. that sounds so simple..
one of these days you are going to have to come over to show me how to do it :)

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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Its a very simple answer actually. We don't belong there, they didn't attack us because of our Freedom, they attacked us because we stick our noses in their affairs. I say burn a stack of bibles and korans, just stay away from my Bible, The Baseball Abstract!

Posted 1 year ago #
MousePotato
Member Profile

What does our being there have to do with some southern bible banging extremist nut job burning the Koran? This idiot is going to put every American in harms way.

I just hope that they get him first. He is already receiving death threats and wearing a bullet proof vest.

Islam is not evil and the Koran does not support terrorism any more than the bible does. This is nothing more than egocentric ignorance that lets a man believe he can throw a match in a powder keg without anyone getting hurt....

Posted 1 year ago #
Jiggers
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Wasn't the Koran wrtten way after the Bible?

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
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Thank you Mouse, I don't think Carson gets it.Sounds like the same kind of radical this crazy pastor is. I know we have issues with our government going into places we probably should not be, but come on. This man is going to put millions of people at risk, and make muslim christian relations in this country in more jeopardy than they already are. Hopefully there will be no news coverage of it, and no one will even see it happen. DOUBT THAT! but what else can be done? Too many crazy disillusioned people in this world. I am VERY proud to be an American. But this makes me want to hide that. I hope the world knows that this is a crazy man doing a crazy act.

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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Oh I get it. Bottom line is this is a free country, but we did start it.....

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
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How about a Q'uran/Bible/Torah (who did I leave out) reading at the Statue of Liberty plaza on Alki Saturday? We organized peace vigils in less time than this early in the Iraq war. We need to take back religion, the flag, the country, the world, from the crazy fanatics -- of whom Carson is obviously NOT one :-)

As of this morning, no one in the Rep leadership stream has made a statement criticizing this "action." That says a lot.

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
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It is a crazy thing to do, and probably a death sentence, but its his right to do it. If I was a betting man, I would lay $5 that someone "talks" to him and he calls the whole thing off.

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
Member Profile

I would love to do that Charlabob. I am of no religion. But that sounds like a great idea.
And Carson, I dont think you get it, but you are totally entitled to your opinion. I am not here to attack you. The last thing I want to do is piss you off. I just want our troops (most of whom are 18-21 yrs. old) not to have an even harder time getting muslims in other countries to help them restore their countries now that they have been destroyed.

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
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I hope you are right Carson!

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
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Sampson, let's talk tonight. You can contact me at charla at charla dot com. (Anyone else who's interested in organizing/participating in a reading Saturday let me know.

It's sabbath for Muslims and Jews so I'm not sure what kind of official particiation we can get. Anyone have connections with local mosques?

c

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

charlabob: Good luck on 'taking back' religion. I mean, it's a nice idea, but I don't think it's going to happen. In fact, I don't think it CAN happen.

Unfortunately, there will always be a number of bullies and other mean-spirited running around out there, and I'm afraid they will never have a hard time finding religious justifications for their cruelty, regardless of the particular religious text they rely on for "guidance."

Zionist Jews (and there are many) claim that the Torah gives them a right to occupy Palestine and to treat everyone there who's not Jewish as a second-class citizen.

Radical Muslims (and there are many) feel the Koran justifies the taking of life in the name of the faith, and they can cite you the passages to prove it.

Extremist Christians (including some in very high places) feel that America is on a "civilizing mission" in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere. And if they should happen to bring about the Apocalypse in course of civilizing people? Why, that's all right. They're just fulfilling Biblical prophecy!

Show me a religion with a fool-proof mechanism to keep out the haters and the crazies, and I'll show you a religion that never made it onto the world stage.

Now, having said that, I am well aware that there are many good and loving people who use religion to justify what THEY do as well. In fact, I believe that good religionists far outnumber bad religionists. However, I think I'm in the Carson camp on this one: We need to move beyond religion all together if we're going to survive as a species, because religion has proven itself singularly inept at helping us unite in the face of common threats.

Think about it. If we were living in a secular society right now, instead of the religious-influenced one we are living in, it wouldn't even occur to these nut jobs in Florida to burn a Koran. Because it wouldn't mean anything.

—David

P.S. JanS I salute you for being principled in your arguments. Just like the NY mosque/prayer room, and the opposition to it, this activity is protected by the First Amendment.

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
Member Profile

Guess you are right. No use trying to change anything. I dont believe in God, or anyone else. I just have lots of friends in Afghanistan. I wish them the best. This is why I try to never get into political or religious discussions. I just thought this might be one that could make a difference. How wrong. Well back to doing nothing and watching this world go down the tubes

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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i would never deny Terry Jones his right to burn the Koran...

but i suspect he would be livid if someone suggested burning the bible

Even so..

I support his right to do express himself however he sees fit...

but i really have to question the media for making such a big deal out of this ...

and commend those who choose to speak out against it.

I don't generally choose to participate in public demonstrations.. but i would show up for this if someone puts an event together.

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Thanks, DP -- and, just out of curiosity, how much do the R's pay you to sow hopelessness? I hope you at least get 30 pieces of Beck's gold.

Sampson, when you're ready to get back on that horse, let me know. I'll sleep when I'm dead; until then I hope I'll never be that easily jaded.

Thanks, Jo -- things will be happening, but they won't be announced here. I now return the forums their original focus of nihilistic whining accompanied by shopping tips.

L'Shana Tova

Posted 1 year ago #
DOC
Member Profile

What if we just had a "confort the qu'ran" day on 9/11? As a type of counter protest we could take pictures of the qu'ran in cozy places. Bundle it up in a blanket, give it a centerpiece on your bookshelf, put in on the couch with a nice cup of tea, etc. Then just take a picture and put it up as your profile pic on facebook or something for a day. That could show your support for the book/religion while counter protesting that freak in Florida.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

charlabob..

why not let everyone know here?

i suspect there are many who read without commenting who would welcome the opportunity to show up.

the 34th district endorsed Fitzgibbon by a huge margin. There is hope yet ;->

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
Member Profile

actally, samspon, it is pretty simple.

if you know anyone in florida, send him/her to the site in BFE florida where this idiot is holding his "sermon" and tell him/her to bring an extra-large squirt pistol.

have him/her douse the threatened qu'ran with water and watch hilarity ensue. careful, though! no one likes an undue assault charge.

seriously, though, i can't believe this is an issue in 21st century america, and i can't believe that a parish of 80 mean-spirited half-wits in a swamp can garner worldwide attention.

"hyuk, hyuk! anyone want to come to my bible-burning on 12/25?"

morons.

Posted 1 year ago #
Garden_nymph
Member Profile

If the wack job "preacher man" wants to show those from the Middle East how HE and his cult feel, let's send Terry our frequent flyer miles and fly him to Afghanistan where he can burn a Koran in the midst of his target audience.(Please note I do not condone the burning of anyone's religious books!) Let's make sure we deck him out in red, white and blue, so those around him KNOW he is a "proud American." He said he understands the increased risk to American lives, so let's put HIM in harm's way! What a spineless putz to do this in the safely of THIS country protected by laws allowing him to publicize his stupidity and fan the flames of hate that are already spreading toward Americans. Although the 1st Amendment provides us with freedom of expression, it doesn't mean we always SHOULD express it.

Posted 1 year ago #
WSB
Member Profile

Something some of you might be interested in:

For several years now, the First Lutheran Church of West Seattle pastor has taught an "Understanding the Koran" class.

We always post notice of it on the Events page. I just got his newest announcement the other day and was about to put it there when I remembered this thread.

If you are interested:

OCTOBER 7, 14, 21, 28: READ THE KORAN IN FOUR WEEKS, First Lutheran Church of West
Seattle, 935-6530, http://www.flcws.org (Have you wanted to know for yourself what the
Koran says in a world where Islam is mentioned nearly every day in the news? Then
make plans now to join this four-week guided reading led by Pastor Ron Marshall --
who's been teaching this class four times a year since 2003. The $50 registration
fee includes an authorized translation of the Koran for your keeping. Worksheets and
other background handouts from Islamic scholars will be provided for each class
session the week before. Call now to register or make inquiries.)

We did a story about it a couple years ago:

http://westseattleblog.com/2008/05/learn-about-the-koran-from-a-lutheran-pastor

Posted 1 year ago #
WorldCitizen
Member Profile

However you decide to get the word out, you must figure a way for it to be a headline worthy action. This guy is obviously a sociopath. The reason he is getting so much attention is because of the shock factor. This kind of shit sells papers and ad space. If you want to get a message out to the world that this guy is crazy and a radical, and us folks here in Seattle are against it, you must do so in a way that gets attention and sells ad space...just as he has done. If it doesn't make headlines, or shock, or appall the general public, then it won't get the attention necessary to get the word out. We live in a country of people and events defined by thirty second sound bites. You must take advantage of this fact to get your issue into the mix. I can't say what you must do to achieve this, but you MUST achieve this to get your word out. Sad, isn't it?

Posted 1 year ago #
Garden_nymph
Member Profile

I'm free in the morning until about 3 in the afternoon. On September 11th, 2001, I was part of the vigil at the International Fountain in Seattle Center. I later lit a candle and left flowers at our Statue of Liberty and then took flowers to my local firehouse. I would happily take part, lending my support for the respect of the Koran, Muslims, peace and neighborly love. I like the idea of returning to our West Seattle Statue of Liberty for this event.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

it is a sad reality that peace demonstrations don't make headlines any more no matter how well attended...

anger sells.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't still stand up for peace... a whispered message is still being shared long after a shout is yesterday's news.

that said...
i just thought of the Target dance in.

We have a statue and if someone filmed us silently gathering looking at it.. if we had enough people.. that could be powerful.

anyone remember the name of our local peace singer?
anyone have a camera and youtube know how?

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

A couple more thoughts on religion:

All the religions I've read about have, as one of their core tenets, the belief that SOME people are favored by God, and thus worthy of being saved, while others are doomed to eternal suffering. While God loves us all equally at the start, whether we end up in Paradise or in Hell depends on whether we follow certain rituals and accept certain (often non-sensical) articles of faith.

To me, all religion represents a system of discrimination, primarily against those who believe in reason. Thefore, I'm not sure how much we'll ever be able to "reform" it.

Of course, theology isn't much worse than any other rigid idealogical system. Just look at Marxism, for example! But at least idealogy has the advantage that it can be tested in the real world and modified or discarded as experience dictates. Not so for theology, which makes pie-in-the-sky promises (Nirvana, Pearly Gates, boatloads of virgins) that it will never have to keep here on earth.

I know that getting a heavenly reward isn't the only thing religion is about. But it's a big part of it. I submit that anyone who denies this either hasn't read the scripture or is cherry-picking it to suit their own beliefs.

But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, trying to mount a logical critique of something that's not based on logic to begin with.

Mark Twain defined religious faith as "believing in something that you know ain't so." Once you start down that road, I guess anything goes . . .

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DP..

as a person of faith
your comments offend me.

religion is not the problem here

individuals who use religion as an excuse for their own personal prejudice or to inflame others in order to secure personal power or fame or money are the problem...

burning the koran in public is just a symptom...

Posted 1 year ago #
biankat
Member Profile

he's decided to canel the burning now: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2012846470_apquranburning.html

Posted 1 year ago #
sampson1029
Member Profile

I am so happy to hear that this has been cancelled. It is a very smart move.

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

DP: Right on. I think it's a crime that reason has become something to be reviled, that science is now viewed more suspiciously than a belief in space aliens that come down to earth and impregnate virginal human females. As a nation, we've gone dangerously far down the road toward becoming a theocracy - and there is nothing more dangerous than a religious zealot. In a humanist society, there would be no books to burn.

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Not cancelled -- suspended. The psycho-preacher will cancel if the Islamic center in NY is not built. This whole thing is just sick -- this idiot should not get a minute's attention.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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anonyme...

contrary to what seems to be popular opinion..
there is plenty of room for reason to co-exist with faith...

.

Posted 1 year ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

I agree quit giving him the attention.

While I don't agree with censoring. I think it should be done here, if it puts ANY of our troops over there and us in danger here, it should be stopped period. It is not worth it. Even General Petraeus says this bad.

While yes that is why we are Americans and our troops are over there fighting for that right lets not give the extremist any more ammunition.

Posted 1 year ago #
JayDee
Member Profile

One, this guy is aiming for publicity for his 50-member "church"--burning something is just his way to get it. He will milk this as long as he can.
-
Second, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
-
Lastly, doesn't becoming a lightning rod draw lightning? Do you think that maybe someone is looking at the "church" tax returns, or his own? Has he or his flock properly paid the taxes owed to Caesar? For someone as off-the-handle as this guy I have a hard time imagining him tracking these issues.
-
My two cents.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

For an engaging take on this subject:

America's Jihad on America

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/islam-phobia-ground-zero-mosque?page=1

General Petraeus would have a Koran donated to the Afghan army for every book burned

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/09/group-send-afghan-new-koran-every-one-jones-burns-mrff-islam

I am wondering if there is a mechanism for donating to the "ground zero" mosque.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
Member Profile

jo: interesting question. i heard a blurb yesterday that suggested donald trump might do that very thing. but probably not in the way you mean: looks like he wanted to buy the property to prevent the community center from being built at that site. (a condition of his offer was that they move any mosque 5 blocks farther away from WTC.)

breaking news: trump's bid was just rejected as reported by the street less than an hour ago.

back to the topic, if i burn bibles in front of the lutheran church tomorrow, think i could get CNN to notice the "read the qu'ran" campaign there?

somehow i doubt it.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
Member Profile

do not get me started on Donald Trump...the man offered 6.2 million dollars for the site. There have been offers from others of $20 mil. So, he lowballed. The Imam said no, and Mr. Trump is calling it a publicity stunt by the Imam to just get more money. My personal feelings aside about the "community center/mosque" location brouhaha....maybe Mr. Trump is wrong and it's not all about money, after all. I suppose we'll see.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Trump is a grandstanding idiot..

ok.. so that is very clearly a personal opinion
which could be written...

Trumps offer to buy the mosque property was nothing more than a publicity stunt.

i suppose i should delete my original statement :(
but i believe that one to be true too ;->

Posted 1 year ago #
rdm
Member Profile

Some of the "rules" of this nutjobs church
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/koran-burner-creepier-you-think

Posted 1 year ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

The guy is nothing more than an attention whore!

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

Word of advice for critics from all persuasions:

You want to dispute someone else's religion? For God's sake, don't burn their holy book! —The only thing that's going to do is make more converts for them. It's far better to take that book and hold it up to the sun. The light of day is sure to do more harm to it than fire ever could.

You want to criticize the American government? Don't torch the flag. —That's the surest way to get people to tune you out. Instead, give that sucker a good stiff yank and see all the cockroaches come scurrying out from their hiding place. It's much easier to pick them off that way.

Of course this guy in Florida isn't about to initiate a serious public discussion of religion, because such a discussion might double back and bite him in the ass.

Maybe it's high time the rest of us started that discussion on our own, though.

No wait . . . We still haven't had the one on race yet, have we?

;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
BikerDude
Member Profile

if the press had ignored the idiot in the first place there would not be a blog on the issue now

Posted 1 year ago #
miws
Member Profile

Geez! I clicked through the links on the Smoking Gun (from rdm's post), and the rule book itself looks like the guy wrote it in a foriegn language, then ran it through a translator from that language to English.

It reads much like an instruction book/sheet that comes with a product, that is translated from the language of the product's country of manufacture, to English.

Mike

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DP..

i don't know who you hang out with...

but i have been part of an on-going multicultural and multigenerational conversation about race for the past 45 years ...

and that religion conversation...
big in my circle of atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Hindus, born again everythings, fundamentalists and agnostics...

oh.. and that gender thing too...
not sexuality but gender specific behavior...

every time we think we have come to a conclusion.. we learn more..
mostly about ourselves.

Posted 1 year ago #

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