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1. beachdrivegirl
   Member Profile

   

   I know this is not West Seattle based but I am curious as to what other West Seattlites are feeling about this strike. IMO, the teachers that have chosen to continue to strike should be fired. Imagine the money the district would save with a whole new batch of teachers.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

2. bfranklin4206
   Member Profile

   

   honestly all teacher are way underpaid we can pay a baseball player a million dollars a game but not support the basic needs of a teacher that should only be teaching no more then 20 students instead of 30+ so its the whole system

   Posted 2 years ago #         

3. FullTilt
   Member Profile

   

   This strike is about class size. The money the teachers are losing in the strike is never going to be made up.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

4. sunshine
   Member Profile

   The district might save money by hiring all new teachers, but they'd also be losing 80% of the district's experience and any continuity of education for the students. I'm glad you don't run a school district.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

5. KBear
   Member Profile

   The decision to go on strike, especially in violation of a court order, isn't made lightly. The teachers deserve more respect.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

6. gunnerddog
   Member Profile

   

   Clarification:
   No baseball player makes $1M per game.

   My understanding is that the teachers are not going to lose any money as they are paid by the school day and since the strike is pushing school back, they are simply pushing back their work to a later start date. Is this correct?

   Thirdly, I agree with BDG in that they should be fired. Certain public employees should not be allowed to strike. These include Firefighters, Medics, Police, and Teachers. It is called out in their contracts that they are not allowed to stop work.

   Lastly, I agree with bfranklin in that they are underpaid, but this strike has lessened their level of respectability in my eyes.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

7. Traci
   Member Profile

   

   I went to school in Kent, guest taught there during school, and am a regular substitute teacher there now. This has been a really tough couple weeks for both sides and has been a *first* for the district... Every time I read someone comment in response to some article and say "fire them! They are greedy!" really must not be aware of the negotiation timeline or that both sides (KSD and KEA) are in a difficult position.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

8. gunnerddog
   Member Profile

   

   I don't believe they are greedy. However, they broke their contract by striking and are disobeying a court order by refusing to return to work. We have courts for many reasons. One of which is to enforce contracts. I am not disagreeing with those who say they have legitimate concerns. The state does not sufficiently fund education, and the teachers are one of many who pay the price for that shortfall. However, they are in breach of their contract and a court order.

   I don't really think they are lawbreakers who need to be locked up, and don't believe they will be. I'm curious as to what others think the school should do, if not terminate employement, with teachers who have violated their contracts?

   Posted 2 years ago #         

9. beachdrivegirl
   Member Profile

   

   I agree teachers should be paid more and have smaller class sizes.

   However, if *we* the public do not vote for an increase in property taxes etc then schools will not have the funds available to pay teachers and keep class sizes small.

   I do not agree that teachers salaries should be compared to a baseball players salary. Two completely different things. Our taxes don’t pay for baseball players salaries so they are completely irrelevant. I think all of our government employees are taking pay cuts and making sacrifices. What makes a teacher different?

   But my stance is similar to Gunner dogs, teachers, firemen, policemen etc should not be allowed to strike. In the long run they are hurting these children’s educations more than the large class size would have, they are also hurting these children’s family finances b/c parents are either a) having to take work off or b) having to find and pay for childcare which would be an unexpected expense that some families cannot afford to have right now.

   Gunnerdog, imo, they should not be arrested but all of their contracts should be terminated.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

10. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    In a 365 day window (one year)kids are going to be in school for a predetermined number of days. You are correct that some parents are having to pay for child care that they did not plan on. But when the children do go back to school they will still attend for the predetermined number of days. Come next June families will realize a savings for days they won't have to pay for child care because their little ones are still in school. My grandmother used to say "It all comes out in the wash."
    It is true that public employees are not supposed to strike. Teachers on strike do not pose the same public safety problem that police and firefighters on strike would. Even the judge understood that the teachers might (as is typical) defy the court order to return to work. Some would say that the judge gave a nod to the teachers to defy the order. I'm not sure about that.
    This is a strike about appropriate care for children and best practice in education. Some class sizes include more than 45 children in a class.
    Today is day three in the strike.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

11. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    Flowerpetal, where are you getting your figures? Per the Kent School District website in 2008 the largest class size was 29 in grades 5-6.

    http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/KSD/CR/KSD_facts.html

    When I was growing up I remember having a few classes with more than 30 in them. Doesn’t really seem like much has changed?

    And yes it is only day of three of the strike but they are defying a judge’s order. what type of example is that for kids?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

12. WSMom
    Member Profile

    

    My friend, who is a teacher in Kent, says the district website classroom size figures are not completely correct, that there were many classrooms with over 30 students. She knows of parents who have called the district to inquire why their child's class is listed as having 27 kids when in fact the class had 33 students last year.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

13. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    It is in the talking points between the Kent Edcuation Association and the Kent School District. I got the number directly from the Washington Education Association. Neither the KEA nor the KSD are denying the class size of 45. This number was also quoted last week in the Seattle Times. That's four sources.
    Some would say it is a good example for children. When Rosa Parks sat in an available seat on public transportation it was in defiance of the law. Today Rosa's picture graces many text books. Some times people have to stand in defiance of the law. If women and men hadn't stood in protest of women's suffrage (sometimes protesting outside the law) women would not have been granted the right to vote when they did.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

14. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    I guess we must be reading different articles. The only Seattle Times article I read mentioned a teacher (Hsu) saying their class size was between 30 & 32. So I aplogize. My question to you though is where the he** do you want teh school district to make up the $11.2 million that the teachers are asking for in salary increases & smaller class sizes. We are in a great recesssion right now and we all have to learn to compromise.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

15. FullTilt
    Member Profile

    

    Your taxes do pay baseball players salaries. When you taxes are used to build a stadium, and support a stadium, you are paying for those players.

    Police and fireman are not allowed to strike because public safety is at risk. When garbage collectors, truck drivers, carpenters, longshoremen, and teachers go on strike it is an inconvenience for all involved. It is their only bargaining power though. Taking that away from any workforce removes the power to the owners side of the board. This was done to many industries by Reagan in the 80's.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

16. Kelly
    Member Profile

    

    In my opinion, the Kent teachers ARE setting a good example for their students. You stand up for what you believe in, even if it is difficult and uncomfortable. These teachers do not want to be in this predicament. Striking is not enjoyable. They will still be working the same number of days as they would have been working pre-strike. This is not a paid vacation for them. As for this not being the best time economically for a strike, I will say that most teacher contracts are not negotiated annually. These are multi-year deals. And if the choice is between going on strike and having outrageous class sizes for 3 or more years, I can completely understand the very difficult decision that these teachers made.
    As a National Board Certified teacher of 8+ years (none in the Kent district) and as a teacher who once had 36 children in my class, I will attest that it is nearly impossible to do even a passable job teaching in that environment. One of the numerous challenges of having this many students in a classroom is that they are not at the same level of ability and they do not have the same level of support at home. Even the best-trained teacher cannot support all students in the sea of bodies that is 36 students, especially when they range from severely developmentally disabled to highly gifted to English Language Learner.
    My last point is in regards to the idea of firing all 1800+ teachers in this district. Seriously? Does anyone really think this should happen? And exactly how would one go about filling those positions should those teachers be fired? I have some facetious suggestions but I'll just keep them to myself.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

17. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    BDG, here's the article that I read:
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009776655_noschool31m.html

    I would be happy to read the article from the Times that you read if you would be so kind as to send the link. Perhaps that teacher (Hsu) does have 30-32, but others have numbers as high as 45.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

18. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Nice points you make, Kelly. Maybe they wouldn't have to replace all 1800 teachers, and instead would only replace the 75% who voted to continue the strike. ;~)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

19. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    Here is the link to the article I referenced:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009822384_kent08m.html

    Maybe if class size truely is the bigger issue Kent teachers should forgo asking for their rasies which will cost the district an estimated $8.5 million and use that money instead for more teachers. Just a thought.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

20. jamminj
    Member Profile

    "We are in a great recesssion right now and we all have to learn to compromise. "

    so why is it the teachers and especially the children who are told to compromise? How about administrators cut their salaries - and use, from what I understand, a substantial reserve available to the district?

    Amazing how little we think of the education of our future.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

21. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks BDG. The quote from Hsu is a parent not a teacher. I misspoke if I seemed to frame this as a one issue strike. Class size is only one issue, as you well know from reading the article.

    Succinct statements jamminj!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

22. Kelly
    Member Profile

    

    I found this interesting. It is information from the Kent Education Association website.

    http://www.kentschools.org/index.php/priorities-administrators-or-teachers.html

    Basically, Kent ranks #7 for money spent on teaching and support (when compared to 6 other similar districts), but #1 on building and central administration. Wow.

    In addition, the website reports, "Kent ranks at the absolute bottom for pay in the Puget Sound metro area, and 80th statewide for new teachers. But look at salaries for Kent’s administrators and the trend is just the opposite." (see website for specific numbers)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

23. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    What good does it do to have a union if you have no means of fighting for your rights? You have a problem with it? Do more between contracts to make sure that the people you entrust with your children and their futures are making a fair wage. Neglect this issue all year long and this is what happens.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

24. rockhills
    Member Profile

    

    Interesting, Kelly,
    You found some support for one of my pet (and heretofore unsubstantiated) theories about the problems Kent seems to have in attracting and keeping good staff. Of the South King school district offices I have visited or worked through, Kent's is the shiniest and newest--and staff are fleeing them in droves. Other districts, (Federal Way, Highline, and Auburn are the only ones I can speak to) have ugly offices--old, brown and orange, water-stained, and a little smelly. I can't say it makes for a great work environment, but at least there has been a general consensus that those districts' fiscal priorities are on the students rather than the administrators.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

25. melissa
    Member Profile

    I've read and listened to quite a few debates about the Kent teachers' strike over the last few days. Until this one, I found those discussions saddening and dispiriting. This one, however, made me a little teary because of the warmth, sympathy and understanding I saw in it. Thank you to Flowerpetal, Cait, FullTilt, Rockhills, Kelly, and Jamminj.

    While I don't teach in Kent, I do teach. I pour my heart and soul into the kids I teach. I'm making the barest bit more than I did last year, but I also know that I'm fortunate to have a job. I also have reasonable class sizes and few of meetings. I have enough time to meet with students individually. And I have a union that bargained hard so that my job is sane.

    I support the Kent teachers in their strike and so deeply appreciate folks who understand the reasons for it and do the same -- with respect and without rancor.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

26. Kelly
    Member Profile

    

    I wholeheartedly agree, Melissa. I appreciate that this discussion has been respectful and civil.

    It sounds like if Kent teachers don't hold their ground on this issue, they could be looking at class sizes of 35-50 children in their classes (since the district will not agree to any hard-and-fast caps on class size). Is that what is best for teachers OR kids?

    Here is another excerpt from the KEA website (http://www.kentschools.org/index.php/the-district-budget.html) regarding concessions that teachers have already made in efforts to settle on a contract:

    Kent educators have already made significant compromises at the bargaining table to reflect the current economic times. Teachers have:

    * * Withdrawn our proposal that the district pay a 4.3 percent COLA approved by taxpayers under Initiative 732.
    * * Reduced $4 million from our initial proposal for supplemental pay to offset teachers’ responsibilities that extend beyond the students’ school day.
    * * Reduced our request for smaller class sizes; instead we are essentially asking the district to commit to ensuring overcrowded classes don’t grow even larger. The district has refused.
    * * Withdrawn proposals for various compensation increases when reassigned, transferred and engaged in quality-improvement programs such as National Board certification.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

27. anatidaephobia
    Member Profile

    The teachers are almost morally obligated to strike if they have 45 kids assigned to one classroom. Also, the ratio probably violates the "contract", thereby freeing the teachers to strike. Parents should also raise their voices and support these teachers, for the good of the children. The kids can't advocate for themselves.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

28. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Forty Five kids in a classroom certainly defies the legislation; so following BDG's (whom we haven't heard from for 16 hours) #1 post, perhaps the administrators and school board should be fired.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

29. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    Rosa Parks is your comparison? Really? This situation compares to that injustice? OK, lets follow your logic of extremes. Those who kill abortion doctors feel very strongly that they are doing something for the greater good of society. One murder spares the murder of thousands of others. Lets all rally our support behind that noble deed.

    If class size breaks their contract, then they had a right to their original strike and dispute. However, to defy a court order sets the precedent that when "we" feel strongly that something we believe in is right, it's ok in those circumstances to break the law.

    When does that thinking cross the line? Only when another set of "we" disagree with the cause? This is a terrible example to set for children. It's the time now to employ different negotiating techniques that do not involve breaking the law, merely because "we" have justified it.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

30. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    Here are some of the *facts* from the Kent School District web page to address some *concerns* I am hearing some of you state.

    http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/ksd/cr/budget/budget_negotiations/budget_negotiations/budget_negotiations/html/faq_1.html

    1) Per the Kent School District website all class numbers have been restored to 2008-2009 levels.
    2) Kelly, you are correct, that the current average teachers compensation is below the average. However, the current KSD proposal (which isn’t good enough for teachers) is moving the average toward the middle. This is despite the fact that they have less funding than the top three schools (Tacoma, Bellevue, and Lake Washington).
    3) The community was involved in designing this year’s budget. So if these teachers and parents supporting these teachers were concerned with class sizes and salaries it should have been discussed at that time. Not when school was supposed to be starting. Not after a judge has ruled their strike illegal.
    4) Administration costs. KSD recognized that they needed to make cuts in this area. Some of the things they have done include cutting 4 assistant principal positions as well as other central administration and school leadership mandatory reductions. Lets also note that KSD is below average for both state & large school district administration.
    5) Lastly, long term financial stability is critical for a long term successful school district. Kind of similar to family financial or business financial stability. Therefore this fund balance (savings account) cannot be used for the spending on teachers’ salaries b/c in the long term it risks the districts’ financial stability.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

31. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks for your response BDG. We are obviously on "different pages" on this topic.

    In your original post you said you were curious what other West Seattleites are feeling about this strike. I trust you got some answers.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

32. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    I did get my answers. and it made me do a little research myself-which i appreciated.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

33. JoB
    Member Profile

    I got some answers too...

    and from a position of having no opinion on this matter...

    i am now in full support of the Kent teacher's strike.

    BDG quoted the Kent School District website...

    "Per the Kent School District website all class numbers have been restored to 2008-2009 levels"

    Part of the complaint was that the numbers on the school district website did not match the reality of classroom size in 2008-2009.

    What we didn't hear from the district was that they were even committed to classrooms with less than 30 children.

    It's easy enough to frame this as a greedy or self serving teachers issue... to make this all about dollars...

    but when teachers aren't paid a living wage they stop teaching and when they have too many children in their classrooms... the kid's suffer.

    Someone has to stand up for the kids... and most of the time it's left to their teachers to do so.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

34. bluebird
    Member Profile

    Who is framing it as greed? They are defying a court order.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

35. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    JoB, I am so happy to hear that you were able to form an opinion on a matter by taking a look at the facts. I am curious though as to where you find your facts about the cost of living etc. according to this site, http://www.city-data.com/city/Kent-Washington.html, the median household income in Kent in 2007 was $51,855. According the KSD site, the average teachers salary will be raised to $57,646. How is this below the cost of living???

    Posted 2 years ago #         

36. JoB
    Member Profile

    beachdrivegirl...

    A living wage is one at which an individual can pay for housing, food, medical care, transportation, insurance, education, etc... for all members of the household that wage supports.

    You might ask yourself just how far that average salary of $57,646 would go if you were supporting your lifestyle? That's about $3500 +/- a month in take home. What if you were also supporting children on that wage? Would you consider it a living wage? When you start adding up expenses, you really do wonder how some people make ends meet.. even at the median income.

    btw.. did you realize that you compared the projected average salary for 2009-2010 to the median income in 2007?
    what was the average teacher's salary for 2007 ... the year that actually competed with those median wages?
    And does the same website give you the information for the median wage for college graduates in the county?

    If we value our teachers in terms of dollars, what does it say that the average wage for our teachers barely keeps track with the median wage for all workers in the county?

    We require our teachers to pursue degrees in higher education... and to continue their education during their career... so why aren't our teachers paid the median wage for professionals with comparable credentials?

    and that doesn't even approach the question of comparing the average teacher's wage with the average administrator's wage.

    Why isn't the education of our children important enough to pay professional teachers a professional wage? Why would they have to strike to ensure class sizes small enough to effectively educate the children in them?

    Isn't that what we employ them for.... to educate our children?

    If that is true, it's high time we stopped paying lip service to the concept of public education and blaming teachers for our own failure to provide them with the tools to get the job done.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

37. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    JoB you missed the point of the topic once again. If you want to discuss teacher wages etc rather than high jack this post please start a new forum topic. I think most if not all of us posting here have agreed that teachers should be paid more. Heck, I said this early on in post nine. And don't be silly I am intelligent enough to know what a living wage is. ( I have wikipedia, too.) and please refrain from making public assumptions and comments about me - that is uncalled for and on the verge of name calling which is against the rules.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

38. bluebird
    Member Profile

    Please JoB, you're getting all apple-orangie here. You can come up with all kinds of scenarios where any and every job isn't enough. Why not say a two teacher household with zero kids make over a hundred grand. Not a bad living and comparable to most other jobs held with a degree.

    And there is a union that negotiates these things. You're choosing not to address what is a known. These teachers are defying a court order supposedly for the sake of the children while the children are actually out picketing and protesting their teachers. They want to be in school. Period.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

39. jamminj
    Member Profile

    I still find it amazing that we are arguing about paying teachers a living wage, or a little above it.

    I have always felt that most of us felt that school was nothing more than a glorified day care. And I think some of the sentiment here shows that.

    Teachers shouldn't be paid at JUST a living wage, their responsibility goes beyond 'average'.

    Our family went to a Mariners game recently, cost us a pretty penny, as well as seeing all the families there on kids day who also shelled out some serious dough. Seems as if we have no problem spending some $$$$ for entertainment, but when it comes to raising our taxes when it comes to teachers, we seem to have a problem and feel the need to tell them to keep there place.

    As far as the court order, I don't know if its the best example for the children, but what other tool do the teachers have who have legitimate claims??

    Posted 2 years ago #         

40. jamminj
    Member Profile

    "These teachers are defying a court order supposedly for the sake of the children"

    so is there a claim that reducing class size is false by the teachers and union??? That reducing class size is not a benefit for the children, but for the teachers?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

41. Kelly
    Member Profile

    

    I will reiterate that the teachers also want to be in school right now. A strike is a last resort. The union and the district have most likely been bargaining all summer since the end of the previous school year. The teachers are left with few options at this point since they do not have a fair contract.
    To those who believe that these teachers should not strike, what would you have these teachers do?
    As a parent, I would never want my child in a class of 35 students, let alone 40 or more. I personally don't believe that it is safe to have that many students in one class. As a teacher, I would absolutely be hindered from doing even a passable job under these conditions.

    What would you have these teachers do?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

42. JoB
    Member Profile

    beachdrivegirl..

    I didn't make any assumptions about you or verge on calling you names..

    tho i did point out the weaknesses in the stats you provided to try to rebut my comment.

    If you think that is personal, that is your problem.

    If i ever do call you names i promise to promptly report myself.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

43. JoB
    Member Profile

    bluebird,

    Yes, there is a union and the teachers are exercising their right to strike.

    they have as much right to ignore the court order ordering them back to work as you or I..

    and as much risk of the consequences.

    as for their contract.. how can they have a valid contract if... as someone else pointed out... the school district already broke it by exceeding class sizes?

    And those kids on the picket-lines.. i suspect their parents have something to do with that, don't you?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

44. anatidaephobia
    Member Profile

    This isn't about the teachers, it's about the students. The teachers obviously are fighting for the kids.

    The ratios put out by the district are erroneous b/c they include personnel other than teachers in their calculations for the teacher:student ratio (ex. counseling staff, nurses, library staff, etc...). Since more non-personnel staff has been hired this year, returning the ratios to the 2008-2009 level does not equal the same amount of students in each classroom this year when compared to the prior year. In other words, there are more students sitting in each classroom than reported in the ratio.

    Also, the teachers argue that they are required to attend too many meetings, taking them away from time with the students. Anyone who knows a teacher is aware that this job is from morning until night at least 5 days a week, with much of it done at home AFTER school lets out. They plan lessons and grade papers/tests on their own time. If you break down their salaries by the hour, their pay is close to minimum wage + overtime.

    The KIDS are shortchanged by the district's imposition of unfair ratios. The teachers are on strike b/c they understand what is happening, and are in the best position to advocate for kids & bring awareness to the parents.

    The district's position will lead to teacher burn-out, neglected kids, decreased learning, and eventually many teachers leaving the field. Supporting our teachers only benefits the kids.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

45. JoB
    Member Profile

    jamminj...

    i suspect if we asked any of those who think the teachers make enough..

    *to live on the wages we pay them or to marry so that they are a two income family
    *to work the overtime every teacher i know works
    *to pay for school supplies not provided by the district out of their salaries
    *to volunteer for after school activities
    *to keep going back to school to get continuing education credits to keep their jobs..
    *to deal with undisciplined children
    *to take the abuse parents heap on them when their child isn't doing well

    and ... to be considered little more than a babysitter to America's kids...

    they would say no.

    Maybe that's why they don't have much respect or admiration for people who make those kinds of sacrifices to teach in our schools...

    And maybe that lack of respect is what has caused our educational scores to slip steadily towards the bottom of the pack.

    If we want a larger number of dedicated teachers we need to pay them for their commitment and give them the tools they need to do the job...

    Posted 2 years ago #         

46. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    JoB- you made personal assumptions about me which i said imo were on the verge name of name calling. please read my posts more thoroughly.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

47. Kelly
    Member Profile

    

    beachdrivegirl,
    I am not seeing what you are seeing in regards to JoB's comments. I think that JoB's comments were quite straightforward and I do not see the "personal assumptions" to which you refer. I definitely don't see anything that could be construed as "name calling."
    Perhaps we could just stick to the topic.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

48. JoB
    Member Profile

    post dited by poster....

    beachdrivegirl...

    I am sorry you don't understand the difference between a personal attack and refuting a point in an argument.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

49. JoB
    Member Profile

    i have dutifully edited my own post.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

50. beachdrivegirl
    Member Profile

    

    I have stuck to the topic at hand. I am sorry I have know idea waht you are rambling about in half of your post??? where are you getting these ideas?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

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