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1. thansen
   Member Profile

   

   Here's a sad part the AZ shooting that took the life of Chief Judge John M. Roll.

   The reason Judge Roll was there was to thank Congresswoman Giffords for her help in getting several judges appointed in his district.

   For over TWO YEARS the GOP has blocked almost all of President Obama's Federal judge appointments.

   Judge Roll has been overworked for 2 years, his case load was 50% more than he could handle. He was working 7 days a week for 2 years to keep up.

   With the help of Gabby during the lame duck session, several of the appointments were approved.

   This is disgusting.

   And where was John Boehner last night? He was at a cocktail party in DC. NOT at the memorial for a judge that he had a part in getting killed.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

2. JoB
   Member Profile

   thansen...

   sometimes bad things happen to good people because of poor timing...

   I agree that withholding approval for federal judges was disgusting...
   and i think Boehner made a major political miscalculation by not attending...

   but blaming the republicans
   for the reason for the judge's errand
   perhaps takes the blame game too far...

   it is an ugly coincidence for sure...
   but still a coincidence

   Posted 1 year ago #         

3. DOC
   Member Profile

   I understand your anger over the situation, but to put it bluntly, the Judges death is on noone but the man who killed him. It is not the fault of Boehner, Palin, the GOP or even FAUX News. It was the direct result of a crazy individual. I agree that he may have been influenced somewhat by the above sources, but to say that they are to blame is far from reality. If it realy was the fault of the GOP, these events would be commonplace, as is political rhetoric and infighting. I am just glad that these horrific events are few and far between.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

4. hooper1961
   Member Profile

   doc - ditto and it would be better if there were no horrific events like this at all.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

5. jamminj
   Member Profile

   "these events would be commonplace, "

   unfortunately violence against our government is common place. Thankfully not in this magnitude, but the past two years have seen dozens of violent actions against our elected officials and government workers by its own citizens. It is commonplace.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

6. DOC
   Member Profile

   Jamminj, so you are saying that violence against any elected official is the direct result of the GOP?

   My point was that we do not have mass murders every other weekend like the one in Arizona. That would be commonplace. Yes, there is violence against the government, but rarely to this magnitude and very infrequent.

   I'm just glad I'm not still in Iraq where a carbomb a week at either a police station, recruiting station, school, clinic or really any government building WAS commonplace.

   To sumarize: Violence will happen, crazies will exist and people will die. But it is NOT the fault of the GOP or anyone other then those that pull the trigger.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

7. Harmonic
   Member Profile

   I rarely comment but have been following much of the commentary on this and actually felt somewhat strongly about this as a true independent, middle of the road thinker. What happened in Tucson was disgusting, Palin's map and blood libel speech timing are disgusting, but you cannot generalize that this is the GOP's fault. There has to be some self responsibility in actions. Obviously, this man is mentally troubled in a scary way. He didn't get the help, maybe because it was seen too late, maybe due to the troublesome nature of getting help and the resources available. Our mentally ill need to be taken care of, but there is no easy solution.

   My point is, you can't take the extremist position that it's the GOP fault. Both parties have fault, especially if you take it to the far far right or far far left.

   Ok, off random commenting soap box.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

8. JoB
   Member Profile

   Harmonic

   "Both parties have fault, especially if you take it to the far far right or far far left. "

   When is the last time you saw any elected official from the democratic party condone the hate speech of anyone on the far left?

   In fact.. if i remember correctly.. the last time any substantial liberal political group engaged in militant rhetoric the democratic party couldn't move fast enough to put distance between them and the extremists.

   Unfortunately that can't be said for the GOP.
   You can find an elected official from the republican party condoning the hate speech of far right extremism nearly every day on FOX broadcasting...
   you can find it on the floor of our nation's congress.

   That doesn't make the shooting the fault of the GOP.

   But it does illustrate why it is so important to have a public conversation about hate speech in politics that acknowledges that it has crossed the line into mainstream rhetoric and has become a contributing factor to public acts of violence.

   The republican party is getting too much political traction from that rhetoric to police itself...
   and hate speech is becoming so pervasive that citizens are beginning to think it is normal.

   if we don't intervene.. we are likely to experience more violence in our public spaces

   speaking about violence leads to violent actions and that's what leads to a bomb in a government building a week...

   Posted 1 year ago #         

9. Admiral935
   Member Profile

   "if we don't intervene.. " you mean burn the books right? Police free speech, right? Personally, I find the sponsorship of the OP's post by the WSB incredible. ie the WSB is sponsoring hate speech. Of course you don't, double standard and all....

   for clarity from the OP quoted:
   "NOT at the memorial for a judge that he had a part in getting killed. "

   Thanks, WSB!.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

10. jamminj
    Member Profile

    "But it is NOT the fault of the GOP or anyone other then those that pull the trigger. "

    then why tone down the hate rhetoric?? why not keep up palins hit list poster?? why not keep on insisting that constituents use 2nd amendment remedies? if words don't matter?... why not continue with the 'Obama is a terrorist' talk??

    Posted 1 year ago #         

11. Harmonic
    Member Profile

    JoB - I do agree with you there, I really do. It needs to stop, I don't have the answer. I've seen many of your opinions, some I agree with, some I don't. But I learned a long time ago to pick my battles growing up in a conservative family from Montana......which is why this us probably my 2nd politics post ever!

    Posted 1 year ago #         

12. jamminj
    Member Profile

    "It needs to stop"... what speech needs to stop on the left?? What progressive asked it's constituents to take up arms when the ballots don't go their way??? obama, at fault in my opinion, has asked over and over and over to reach over and ask for bipartisanship... what gets thrown in his face is a picture of hitler or a monkey. there is a difference of policy, when did Obama use the 2nd amendment as a remedy to settle that difference??

    Posted 1 year ago #         

13. DOC
    Member Profile

    Jamminj;
    You can't quote me saying something, then ask me questions based on something I didn't say.

    I didn't say to tome down the hate rhetoric, to take down Palin's webiste, or call Obama a terrorist by any means. If you are going to quote me, you cannot group my quote in with what other people said. It doesn't work that way.

    Do I believe that there is a connection between hate rhetoric and what this guy perhaps believed? Sure! Everyone gets their reality from somewhere, but it is the sane that understand how to comprehend it and understand we don't need to kill everyone.

    I want bipartisanship, I want a large decrease in hate speach, I wan't the left and the right to disappear and simply do what is best for the country. I want a lot of things that are not reality, but I will also not let my reality be created by the media because I am sane. The INSANE gentleman is the one that pulled the trigger and is DIRECTLY responsable, NOT the GOP. Period.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

14. Harmonic
    Member Profile

    DOC's last statement is spot on and where I peacefully leave the conversation. My two cents was added and that is as much that I will most likely share. Carry on, my poor husband is the only one that gets to see fired up Harmonic.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

15. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    I encourage everyone to cross-reference the "How Do We Cool The Rhetoric" forum discussion as well as it seems that it's now just JoB and me sparring with each other and me making Muppet references. Take it as a damning forecast of where this conversation is going.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

16. Harmonic
    Member Profile

    Cait, I've followed that topic a bit. With politics, I find it simply interesting and a bit pointless. Does the conversation just change any opinion, or is it only to prove one side or the other? Not asking to be an ass, but do people get swayed if they are so opinionated by blog postings? Does someone that feels so strongly on one side or the other merely just try and prove a point or can it be meaningful and cooperative? Off to read the latest postings on that now...,,,,

    Posted 1 year ago #         

17. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    I can assure you that you will be most disappointed. Hell, I'm disappointed.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

18. Harmonic
    Member Profile

    Honestly Cait, my head was spinning and I had to stop reading. It's too much for me. I think you made some great points, however. Who gets to win this one? (note, there's a small bit of sarcasm here, jokingly)

    Posted 1 year ago #         

19. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    I think since I degraded this very important topic with arguments that invoked the Muppets AND stool samples (that's a big feat) I'm pretty sure I do. But really who wins in that case? Certainly not the American political system that I've spent most of today angrily vomitting on... via forum post.

    It happens so quickly.

    One minute you're making a well reasoned argument about something you're passionate about and the next you are spouting off impassioned and snarky comments like a caged animal.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

20. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    any possibility that you're wrong, cait? why so defensive?

    to the topic, the GOP isn't directly responsible for judge roll's death, no. i.e. they didn't come out and tell someone to shoot up the giffords meet-and-greet.

    but they are responsible for fomenting a culture of political violence among the tea partiers - and for not denouncing the ted nugent crowd's rhetoric. their silence on the topic is deafening.

    you could say that liberals are politicizing the tucson shootings. i'd respond that we are using this as a perfect opportunity to discuss something ugly that's been brewing under the surface ever since obama was elected president. (edit: actually, since pelosi was elected speaker of the house.)

    edit: and actually it has brewing out in the open; no one has bothered to look too closely until now, though. "hey, look! those (republican/conservative) people over there are talking out loud about killing liberal members of government!"

    what makes my head spin? reasonable people denying or ignoring what is patently obvious.

    are you seriously trying to tell me that appropriation of the culpepper minutemen's slogan - "don't tread on me" - isn't a veiled threat against elected officials whom the bubbas think are arab commies that have infiltrated the government?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

21. JoB
    Member Profile

    Admiral935...

    ""if we don't intervene.. " you mean burn the books right? Police free speech, right? "

    where do you get this stuff?

    book burning is not a liberal pastime.
    nor is policing free speech.

    the rhetoric you are labeling free speech has crossed the line into hate speech and death threats...

    It's already illegal to direct that kind of speech to individuals.

    Harmonic...

    LOL.. i can relate to picking your battles.

    I too grew up in a conservative household but emerged more determined than ever to speak up regularly.

    I urge you to post more often.

    when reasonable people are silent...
    the only opinions heard are those of the extremists.

    My goal in life is to get reasonable people talking....

    even when they disagree with me:)

    jamminj...

    Although the rhetoric of the mainstream left has not reached the hate speech level yet ...
    it can't be said that they are are not pushing it's boundaries.

    It is comforting to me that some of our incendiary voices are taking this opportunity to examine their own complicity...

    but fighting the fire of political rhetoric with fire won't put out this blaze.

    redblack...

    i wish this was such a recent phenomenon as to have originated with Obama's presidency.

    To paraphrase my deceased father-in-law who was so active in the Republican party in Arizona that he was a delegate at two national conventions and met sitting presidents often enough to be recognized by name....

    'I refuse to give money to the local republican party because militant right wing extremists have taken over our party and destroyed everything we worked so hard to build.'

    the conversation that produced those comments occurred over a decade ago...
    and the takeover that prompted them at least a decade before that.

    This is nothing new.
    what is new is the hate speech that was once confined to closed circles is now being promoted from political podiums.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

22. Cait
    Member Profile

    

    redblack - Either I need an updated definition of defensive or I'm gonna need an example. Because I'll be honest, I'm not seeing it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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