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(75 posts)

Jogger attacked in Lincoln Park

Started 1 year ago by RAK
Latest reply from JoB

RAK
Member Profile

This stuff really makes me mad and affects me personally. I am a single man in my late 50's who relatively frequently jogs/power walks in Lincoln Park. I live in the area and am a good, safe, wonderful man. So now, whenever I am there or sometimes even elsewhere, women have to take a double look at me and potentially be fearful of me because of idiot criminals like this. Of course I have to get over it but, I get offended/hurt when I am looked at that way. Damn these guys.

Posted 1 year ago #
hooper1961
Member Profile

i think they caught the perpetrator; that is good and if guilty should be shown no mercy and put on a chain gang

Posted 1 year ago #
ellenater
Member Profile

RAK. I actually get where you are coming from. I run and hike sometimes in Lincoln Park and I do feel suspicious at times when alone and also bad for it. It's good that you have the understanding. :)

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

Really, it affects you personally? Look, I understand where you're coming from, and it's probably normal to think that way. I believe you when you say you're a good guy, so don't take this as a critique of you as a person.
However, a woman was attacked - no, multiple women have been attacked. Heck, women are attacked each day in this country for no reason other than they are women. We have to constantly be on the defensive, to be aware of what and who is around us. Please take a minute to think about that.
Your post says you're mad. Great; I'm mad, too! But wait -- you're mad because people might think you could be the attacker. You didn't say you're mad that a woman was attacked. That's a big problem.
You may be "offended/hurt" when you're looked at suspiciously, but we women may be "hurt/dead" if we're not suspicious. Please keep that in mind.

Posted 1 year ago #
herongrrrl
Member Profile

Well said, Sarah.

RAK, you certainly aren't the first or only man to feel this way. If your anger about this is strong enough to translate into action to change the problem, here are some places to get started:

Men Against Violence Against Women
http://www.mavaw.org/index2.asp

Men Stopping Violence
http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

herongrrl, correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got from the MAVAW site was that it was for men who actually are (or were) abusers, or who know an abuser.

I think you and SarahScoot are taking away the wrong message from RAK's post. The way I see it, he's actually trying to be supportive. Although he doesn't come right out and say this, the implication from his comment is that violence against women hurts men too, by making all of us potential abusers in the eyes of women.

Maybe his wording wasn't to your liking, but I think he already supports the cause . . .

—DP

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

Yes, I don't think RAK was trying to downplay the effects of this type of violence on women. He was just adding that it affects men, too. Calling his feelings invalid was unfair.

Posted 1 year ago #
herongrrrl
Member Profile

I was offering resources for the OP and others to learn more about the issue, which might help with understanding why it could be construed as belittling or offensive for a woman to hear that a man is offended and hurt that he might be perceived as an attacker.

DP, if you read the "about" page on the MAVAW site, you will see what they are about. Not what you described.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

I believe the OP has good intentions, but I guess I think of his post as akin to saying, "Slavery was bad because it made black people suspicious of white people." It just... misses the point, in my opinion. Slavery was bad because it was an institutionalized and sanctioned egregious violation of human rights. Distrust of white people by black people is a side effect, but it's trivializing to claim that distrust is as bad as slavery itself.
Similarly, women having to be suspicious and hyper-aware of their surroundings at all times is much more oppressing than a man having to deal with the occasional suspicious once-over.
It's not wrong to lament the effect the problem has had on you as an individual. That said, if you express that view publicly, be prepared to be reminded that you are not the true victim in that situation.

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

Yeah, DP, I get that, but you know something? I've been looked at suspiciously AND I've been physically attacked, and I'll take the former any day.
.
Fellas, if it really bothers you, do something about the root problem. The other half of the world's population could use the help.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

FRO, datamuse! (I just made up that acronym; it shall stand for f'ing right on!)
And thank you, herongrrrl, for offering more information on the subject.
Thank you both for understanding where I'm coming from. I saw this post when it first went up last night, and was immediately compelled to reply, but didn't for fear of being accused of being too sensitive. When I found myself thinking about it more this morning, I decided to just make my reply and brace for the backlash. It's such a pleasant surprise to see that others feel the same way and see why the OP's line of thinking could be problematic. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'd love to buy you each a beer. :-)

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

I second the comments made by SarahScoot and datamuse. Not only have I been attacked in the past, but currently work in an isolated situation where there is criminal activity. My employer not only refuses to provide any protection, but will not even provide a communication device for emergencies. Yesterday I was told that if I feel unsafe I should just get another job.

I never feel bad that I feel suspicious. I feel bad that I have to.

Posted 1 year ago #
AlkiCabCompany
Member Profile

I wish people would just stop committing crimes all together so I wouldn't have to go to jury duty. I mean..it would be great to go sit in a court all day and decide someones fate but it's hard when I have to find care for my Chupacabra all day. And believe me it costs more than the $10 a day they give you for jury duty to have someone care for my Chupy properly. ugh!

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

Look, OP wasn't blaming the women who look at him suspiciously. (At least I don't think he was.) He's angry at the bad guys. Isn't that where his anger should be directed? But if you're going to trivialize his feelings about the matter, how can you expect any understanding or compassion from him or other men?

Posted 1 year ago #
ellenater
Member Profile

Thank you, KBear. Well said.

Posted 1 year ago #
RAK
Member Profile

Friends,

SarahScoot and herongrrrl,

I apologize for not stating the obvious. Women are the victims.

DP,

Thank You for seeing where I was coming from.

Posted 1 year ago #
yes2ws
Member Profile

Everyone knows the ill-effects a violent act has on the victim. Everyone knows the ill-feelings and fear it causes other women. But until RAK's post, did everyone really know the ill-effects an act of this nature might have on an innocent man?

It baffles me that there was a need for a stating of the obvious from the OP. The words, "I'm a good, safe, wonderful man" sort of gave us an indication of his character.

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

Actually, yes2ws, I do. This is something I've discussed at some length with my husband and my male friends. I totally agree that it sucks to be treated as a potential threat by default simply because of your gender. It sucks to be treated in a certain way because of your gender, period, and I think that most people, regardless of their gender, know what that's like.

And, now that a suspect has been identified, I think that RAK doesn't have a whole lot to worry about. Thanks to WSB's reporting, we know who the assailant is and what he looks like and have a specific individual to keep an eye out for.

My point, RAK and DP, is simply this: I can understand women who do think this way even though I don't share their thinking, because women are still far more likely to be the targets of sexual violence than men (and if anyone thinks that that isn't an accurate description of what happened in this instance, I invite you to go take a look at the coverage on the home page). It's better than it used to be, but it could be better still.

My request, then, is that since you see how incidents like this affect you, you give us a hand in helping to prevent them.

Posted 1 year ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

I think it was the use of the word "wonderful" that gave me pause. I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I'd want to hear, but "wonderful" throws me off, as I can hear the attacker saying the same things about himself (which I just did--basically).

I'm sure my college-student son may be viewed differently after this (should he take a run through L.P.), but it's my daughters and their friends and mine and every other woman for whom I now feel a new notch of care/fear/unity.

Posted 1 year ago #
LStephens
Member Profile

angelscrest, so you want to compare Mr. RAK to the attacker because of his use of the word wonderful?!? Really??? Grossly unfair and quite a disservice to a person who simply expressed his feelings about the situation.

Posted 1 year ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

No, it was the temrinology...it's just not what I wanted to hear after all of this. It's an odd term to use to describe oneself, and again--it made me pause--as I wanted to hear something more supportive about women/how women can be supported, etc. How's the jogger/victim feeling?
You never run the same after this kind of thing, I know.

Posted 1 year ago #
maplesyrup
Member Profile

So datamuse what are you asking we do that we're not already doing?

Posted 1 year ago #
waterworld
Member Profile

What can men do to help prevent violence against women? Maplesyrup, I think it's a good question. As a woman, and someone who lives next to Lincoln Park and likes solitary walks, I confess my initial reaction to the OP was more like that of SarahScoot and datamuse. On reflection, it's sad that both women and men suffer for the misconduct of one guy.

I did some thinking and looking around, and I came up with a few things that I think men, specifically, can do to help prevent violence against women. Here they are, in no particular order:

(1) Be a mentor to younger men and boys and teach them to respect the equality of women, to not degrade or objectify them, and to not abuse or tolerate abuse of women.
(2) Avoid enabling violence or abuse of women: speak up to family members, friends, or colleagues who reveal either outright abusive tendencies or who are overtly sexist, demeaning, or denigrating of women.
(3) Offer to escort women (at work, school, whatever) to their cars or to the bus stop, or offer a ride when it will help a woman avoid a dangerous walk somewhere. Some women don't ask to be escorted even when they are anxious or fearful.
(4) Intervene personally when you see a woman being assaulted or harassed or verbally abused in public. Speak up to men on the street who are catcalling and harassing women as they walk by. Don't ignore the verbal abuse that women receive on the street every single day.
(5) If you see a situation that requires intervention but you cannot intervene, call the police, wait until they arrive, and be available to give a report to the police. Get other people who saw the event to stay as well to talk to the police. It's not always enough that the victim can identify her attacker; sometimes, independent witnesses are critically important.
(6) If you see a situation that is questionable -- it looks a woman is about to get hit, but you are not sure -- speak up anyway. Ask if she wants help, wants you to call someone, wants to be escorted somewhere safe. Better to offend people by interfering than to walk away when someone needed help but felt she could not say so.
(7) Educate yourself sufficiently about violence against women so that you can recognize situations in which a woman needs help but cannot speak up or cannot get herself away to a safer place.
(8) If a woman confides in you that she is being abused or stalked, help her get out of the house or get the right kind of assistance. If you know that a woman is being abused but she refuses to discuss it, give her emotional support and contact information for people or agencies and organizations that can help. Someday, she'll use it.
(9) Don't "go with the flow" when men you are hanging out with or working with are degrading or debasing women. If you're out with your male friends and their behavior crosses the line from, say, flirtation to harassment, don't ignore it. Tell them it needs to stop.
(10) Where you see abusive sexism or sexual violence in advertising or the media, let your money do the talking. Don't buy products or media that are marketing with messages of sexual violence, degradation, or abuse.
(11) Do all the things you would do to confront any other issue of human rights or social injustice that you are concerned about. If you are someone who attends rallies, then look for and attend the rallies. If you write to editors, do that. If you have a blog, post comments.
(12) Donate to non-profit organizations that provide services and support to women who are victims of sexual violence, domestic abuse, or stalking and harassment. Some of the local organizations -- off the top of my head -- are King County Sexual Assault Resource Center (KCSARC), the Harborview Center for Sexual Assault Traumatic Stress, Northwest Women's Law Center, King County Coalition Against Domestic Violence, the Sexual Violence Law Center, and the Domestic Abuse Women's Network (DAWN).

Posted 1 year ago #
RAK
Member Profile

First, my apology should have been to all women not just posters.

angelescrest, I do not think wonderful is an odd term to describe oneself though it was unnecessary and probably shouldn't have been included in my original post. Sorry, it was posted in in slight rage.

At the time I posted, I knew there was no physical harm done to the victim. But, I do realize, something like that is a personal, mental harm.

I am sorry that women must sometimes distrust men's presence, but I understand why they might. I understand.

I am uneasy and disappointed about it but, I understand and I can get over taking it personally.

I am on your side.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Look guys..
i don't mean to be rude here

but when women are targeted
unless you are the attacker

it just plain isn't about you

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

"Thanks to WSB's reporting, we know who the assailant is and what he looks like and have a specific individual to keep an eye out for."

No, we know who the alleged assailant is. Just in case any of us winds up on the jury. Unless we have replaced trial by jury with trial by press and public opinion and no one told me.

This attack worries me a lot -- I'm not very mobile, but I still try to walk and I'd appear to be an easy target.

But, even more, the vigilante mentality expressed some places worries me as much.

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

No, JoB, you're wrong. Maybe the OP didn't express it the best way, but it the issue IS about everyone. Creeps like the Lincoln Park attacker make the community unsafe for EVERYONE. If you're going to dismiss the opinions and feelings of all men, then you're placing the sexist/misogynist motivations of the attacker upon men in general. And guess what? THAT'S sexist.

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

No, KBear, that's REALITY. JoB is correct. I don't think anyone on this post has suggested that the feelings of all men are completely irrelevant, they are saying that they are not terribly important in contrast to the feelings of millions of women who are assaulted on a daily basis. How exactly does this attack in Lincoln Park make the community unsafe for EVERYONE? I haven't heard any reports of male joggers being attacked by women...? Even if such an event actually occurred, it would be accompanied by a lot of misogynist sniggering - by men, not women. And therein lies the problem - an atmosphere and culture that objectifies women. Until all "wonderful" men begin to speak up and take action against violence towards women then you've no right to complain about YOUR feelings not being honored.

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

So, basically, men need to speak up, even though their opinions and feelings are wrong and/or irrelevant?

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

KBear..

i didn't call men irrelevant

i simply pointed out that when it comes to violence against women..
men are not the victims here..

the OP stated they were hurt/offended because women had become cautious of them because some other man was targeting women in the park...

the simple truth is that regardless of whether there is someone in Lincoln Park currently targeting women ..

women running alone should be cautious of any anyone not known to them ...

That's a woman's reality...
not an accusation.

It is a good thing to see injustice and feel saddened.
But feel saddened for the victims...

not for yourself because potential victims respond differently to you in the wake of repeated attacks.

Far from thinking men irrelevant...
i think there is a great deal men can do to make this world safer for all women.

waterworld posted a great list of things men can do if they want to help prevent violence against women...

I find each and every one of those suggestions relevant.

the sad truth is that a woman's safety begins with the attitudes of the men in her community.

Posted 1 year ago #
yes2ws
Member Profile

"the sad truth is that a woman's safety begins with the attitudes of the men in her community."

Then could we please stop giving men like the OP a hard time? Goodness; I'm not even a man and some of you are turning me off.

The OP simply stated that he's mad and is being affected personally. How is that not a legitimate statement? He's being looked at with mistrust for no other reason than the fact that he's a man. Why is it insignificant to feel bad when being prejudged?

Bad things happen to people everyday. Are we not allowed to express our feelings unless we are in the group most mistreated?

I honestly wish some of you would rethink your approach.

Posted 1 year ago #
MB
Member Profile

Thank you yes2ws! I've been trying really hard to just bite my tough on this one, but you took the words out of my mouth and put them in a much less bitchy way than I could have :) I understand what the OP was trying to say, wether he worded it to everyone's liking or not. And for the record, I'm a 29 year old female who runs through Lincoln Park...just saying.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

historically..
violence against women has been all about men
men's property rights

women won't be safe in the park until the attitude of men towards women changes...
and that won't happen until dad's stop teaching their son's to look at women as sex objects first and people second.
and that won't happen until our society stops celebrating the woman who does business like a man, motherhood like a Madonna and love like a sex kitten.

Somehow i don't think we are going to get there by celebrating the victimhood of the poor man that has to suffer while women are cautious about him in the park.

Making violence about women about the men who suffer is a step in the wrong direction.

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

Good grief, JoB, nobody--not even the OP--asked you to "celebrate his victimhood". It was you and several other posters who tried to elevate his comments to that level. He didn't say "It's all about me", or "It hurts me just as much as the female victim". He just said "It affects me, too." He probably should have said, "It affects me in a teeny weeny way that really annoys me but I know it's minor compared to the unimaginable pain the actual victim feels", but I'm glad some of the women who posted here were able to make that distinction.

If men aren't even allowed to discuss their views without fear of being told to shut up, you can't have an honest dialog. And while women are more than capable of solving most problems on their own, this isn't one of them.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

KBear...

at what point did i say the OP couldn't have feelings?

what i found offensive was the choices he made in expressing them.

"This stuff really makes me mad and affects me personally."
"whenever I am there or sometimes even elsewhere, women have to take a double look at me and potentially be fearful of me"
"Of course I have to get over it but, I get offended/hurt when I am looked at that way"

Try as i might i don't find a single sentence in the OPs remarks that expresses his distress that this is happening to women...

only that as a result he has been made to feel bad.

His problem would be alleviated entirely if women just stopped looking at him as though he could be dangerous to them.

And your response is that i am denying him his feelings... thereby making the problem worse.

all i said was that it wasn't all about him.

we supposedly already did that men's conscious raising thing... about 40 years of it.. so at least a couple of generations... and i will admit there has been some progress...

but references to what a woman is wearing when she is attacked are still a regular feature of news reporting...
that's the old "she asked for it" still raising it's ugly head.

and women are still excusing men for choosing to place more importance on their own personal distress....
than on the very real danger that is a reality for woman.

silly me..
i expected more ...

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

"Try as i might i don't find a single sentence in the OPs remarks that expresses his distress that this is happening to women..."

Yes, that's the problem. You are twisting what he said into something that supports your argument. You're assuming that because he didn't express outrage on the victim's behalf that he was trying to put his own injustice above the victim's suffering. I chalked that up to poor communication, while you vilified him as a raging sexist pig.

Posted 1 year ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

We should be discussing this aloud.

Edit: I did not see waterworld's posting (thank you, datamuse). It deserves to be read reread and copied and shared. I will do so.

Posted 1 year ago #
dhg
Member Profile

So maybe there's a market for a new t-shirt??

"I am not a Lincoln Park butt-muncher..."

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

Waterworld: thanks for your post. It said pretty much what I wanted to say, but was more thorough. (Sorry I dropped out of the discussion, everyone; I've been away for a couple of days.)

Charlabob: excellent point; my choice of words was rash.

I think I got a little bit annoyed because personally, incidents like this DON'T make me look at everyone I meet in the vicinity of where they happened as a potential aggressor. I'm no pollyanna but I do assume good will of most of the people I meet, and most of the time, I'm right.

On the other hand, if the women I know are at all representative of the average, then that 1-in-6 statistic isn't exaggerated and may in fact be understating the situation, and that really bothers me.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

KBear....

now let me see if i understand your argument here...

i am unfairly chastising the OP because..
when the OP failed to express his concern for the women who are being targeted...
i didn't read that concern into his post?

LOL.. yeah.. that works ;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

Is it legal to put up a tent anywhere in Lincoln Park during opening hours?

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
Member Profile

No, JoB, that's not quite it, but that's probably as close as we're gonna get. Can we at least agree that OP is probably a decent person who is concerned about the problem?

dhg, the t-shirt should read "It's not about me".

Jiggers, if you go down to Lincoln Park and pitch a tent, you'll probably deserve whatever happens to you.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

KBear...

i am sorry...
there isn't enough info in the Ops post to determine whether or not they are a decent person:(

however i will agree to give them the benefit of doubt...
which is more than you gave me when i simply stated it wasn't all about him

you may think me a testy old lady...
sadly.. the latest news only reinforces my determination to be clear about what is happening here..

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion

apparently our friends in the GOP don't think it's enough to say no...
you would have to prove evidence of violent assault to use even your own flex ben funds to pay for an abortion.

incest? underage? date rape? drugged?
doesn't matter.
it's apparently the woman's responsibility to prevent rape...

No political one-up-man-ship here.. just one very sad lady
i saw this coming .. and it still breaks my heart.

Posted 1 year ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

ya know, JoB, some people aren't as practiced at briefly putting their complete thoughts and feelings on a complicated issue in writing, esp. in a public forum where feedback will be swiftly provided ... I mean, heck, what's more complicated than the relationship between men and women (except maybe the relationship between Democrats and Republicans.) Isn't this really a learning process for everyone?

Seems pretty clear to me that the OP wasn't trying to make his issue bigger than the attack issue; maybe he felt that there was no point in saying how horrible the attacks are for women's sense of security as he felt we would all agree about that (and this had been discussed at length in comments after the WSB story.)

Instead, it seemed to me he was expressing his frustration about how some people's bad behavior can result in categories of similar people being treated differently as a result ... which, ironically, was how he was treated based on his attempt at starting a dialogue ...

If we are going to have a civil dialogue where complex ideas can be discussed, maybe we should take the extra time to ask clarifying questions when unclear about what a poster meant (or didn't mean) by what s/he said (or didn't say) before we decide whether to agree or disagree. If we are going to demonize someone, we should at least make sure they have two horns poking out of their head and have a long, pointed tail. If we can't, why should we expect public figures to be able to do it?

Posted 1 year ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

metrognome, you can't apply logic to ideology. People who are always right and know everything, are the same people who should be ignored. Their agenda is not to listen or learn. They can not be educated about another's experience or feel empathy. It really is all about them.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Bluebird
tell me what kind of dialogue is possible with someone who labels you an idealogue?

You may not like what I have to say but I have more than earned my right to say it.

I speak as a woman who understands too well the double prongs of sexual assault ... the assault itself and judgment that follows about whether you were appopriately prudent or immodestly dressed.

Posted 1 year ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

There is no dialog possible. You refuse to address the OP's concerns which are very valid to him. You are free to open your own thread to discuss your concerns. Because one issue is the bigger of the two, does not invalidate his feelings or right to express them and get feedback. On HIS feelings, not yours. You're being selfish and of singular vision, shaming him for having a thought that doesn't fit your purpose.

Posted 1 year ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

And...you are not the only one to suffer abuse by the hands of a male. Don't speak for all of us. I feel badly that any man gets tainted by the sins of another.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

As a woman who has experienced sexual assault I can tell you that I am offended that the focus of this discussion has been men's rights instead of outrage that women have been assaulted or that the suspected perpetrator justified his actions because women wear "suggestive" running clothing.

It's no wonder so many women choose not to report this kind of behavior.

Posted 1 year ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

Be offended. This isn't about you.

Posted 1 year ago #

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