West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

1. hooper1961
   Member Profile

   It is time the SPD and WSP start ticketing people for causing massive delays because they and their vehicles are not properly equipped to drive in the snow and ice. How many thousands of hours did the prepared motorists spend getting home yesterday due to the unprepared! It is time that the unprepared pay the piper.

   And I am sick and tired of SDOT closing streets to all motorists. For example WSDOT basically says all motorists must use chains on the pass except 4 wheel drive. It is time SDOT and SPD give greater deference to motorists that are properly equipped and stop making blanket street closures.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

2. tanyar23
   Member Profile

   I think people need to shift the onus of responsibility on to themselves instead of on the mayor myself. I took the day off yesterday from work and kept my youngest child home because I've seen enough times before what happens when Seattle ices up. I try my hardest not to get stuck in Seattle because I don't like the idea of waiting for hours to get home, or for fear of getting in an accident when it's freezing. Seattle simply has too many hills an not enough infrastructure to handle below freezing days with snow and ice.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

3. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   You have a point. Someone posted in another comment about those who ventured out yesterday with cars that were not equipped for the conditions. Many drive with less than standard tires, with less than full tanks of gas, with no provisions in their cars for emergencies (food, water, blankets, something to pee in (TMI). I, myself , am the biggest snow and ice wuss that there might possibly be. I am lucky in that I work at home, have clients come to me. So I can avoid the roads when this happens. And way too many people are overcompetent in their driving skills.

   Yes, it's a problem for the city when this happens. We are a city of hills , and we are NOT Chicago (for all you mid-westerners). We don't have the equipment and expertise that some cities have re: snow removal and emergency situations like this. I remember when Charlie Chang wanted to buy extra pre-owned snow plows at a cheap cost, and the city scoffed at him. Live and learn, I say!!!

   Lastly, employers...be flexible. Is one day without your employees going to break you? If so, you might just rethink your business plan. Tell the employees to go home early, and give an extra day off. We'll all be better for it.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

4. Genesee Hill
   Member Profile

   

   hooper1961:

   I could not agree more.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

5. moxilot
   Member Profile

   I wholeheartedly agree. If you can get a ticket for driving too fast for conditions, then you should get a ticket for driving a vehicle unworthy of the conditions. It is absolutely ridiculous that people were leaving their vehicles in the middle of the streets, bridges, and off/on ramps because they THOUGHT they could make it. Don't even get me started on the buses....

   Posted 1 year ago #         

6. hooper1961
   Member Profile

   Heck the SPD tickets people for simply driving the appropriate speed based on street geometrics and design. Admiral Way between SW Olga Street and the WSB is a prime example. The City SDOT based on fantasy lowered the appropriate 35 MPH limit to 30 MPH and now SPD tickets people driving at reasonable speeds. Yet how many tickets did they issue Monday for people illegally parking/stopping in the middle of the Admiral Way hill?

   Posted 1 year ago #         

7. PDieter
   Member Profile

   

   how many cops do you people think seattle has? LOL

   Posted 1 year ago #         

8. hooper1961
   Member Profile

   they have more than enough to ticket people driving at reasonable speeds (based on engineering criteria) during good driving conditions!

   Posted 1 year ago #         

9. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   I see you're still hooked on the Admiral Hill...must have gotten a speeding ticket on it, huh. We all disagree with many things in life. But posted speed limits are still the speed limits, and not arbitrary just because you think differently. And I say that in the nicest way :)

   Posted 1 year ago #         

10. miws
    Member Profile

    

    Jan, thank you for pointing that out.

    You've saved me the hassle of coming in here and posting that hooper1961+the speed limit on Admiral Way between SW Olga Street and the Bridge=Dead Horse.

    Oh, wait....... ;-)

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         

11. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    i want to know where the SPD was Monday evening? they certainly needed to be ticketing motorists for illegally parking/standing in the travel way on Monday evening.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

12. Al
    Member Profile

    Yes, that would certainly have solved the problem, both now and in the future.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

13. Al
    Member Profile

    And I don't think the problems were just due to the unprepared. The huge amount of cars and buses all trying to get out of the city via limited options (no tunnel, no viaduct, no I-5 in some parts, 3 of the 4 routes into/out of W. Seattle shut down, etc., etc., etc. That's what caused the problem. Too many motor vehicles, too few routes.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

14. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    You don't need an 80k SUV or a 4Wd to drive in this city 99% of the time. When the bridge ices up then you do. Every city has engineers who know how much material and manpower it takes to keep a bridge deiced at each temperature gradient. The voters apparently are not willing to tax them selves to that level. So be it.

    In East coast cities the snow removal contracts are routinely awarded to the mafia since the cost runs into the millions to clear a big snowfall and they already have the dumptrucks and construction companies. If they don't start out "connected" they soon are.

    Those who abandoned their cars after running out of gas sitting on I-5 or 99 for hours may have started out with half a tank.

    I have a 1990 Festiva (sold in japan as the mazda 1-2-1) that handled the ice just fine, passing SUV's and lowriders and Volvos who's drivers overestimated the abilities of their cars.

    I used to drive the pass back and forth to eastern WA several times a week and inevitably there would be some knucklehead in an SUV or a big pickup passing all of us behind the snowplow and we would blow the horn in greeting a few miles up the road as we passed him in the ditch.

    Most people don't prepare for icy conditions here and SPD refuses to clear a accident scene until all the evidence is collected. That's why when 4 out of 5 of the major bottlenecks have blocking accidents, the options narrow PDQ.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

15. JoB
    Member Profile

    I am with Ken
    there is no way to be prepared for the idiots who don't know their own capabilities
    and routinely exceed them
    blocking the way for the rest of us.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

16. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    its the idiots who drive obscenely slow that cause the problem because people then try to get around them. if all motorists drove at prudent reasonable speeds (5 MPH is not reasonable; 15 to 20 MPH is) lot of the incidents would not happen. it is the slugs that cause the problem and the SPD has a duty to ticket them aggressively.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

17. Andy
    Member Profile

    Riiiiiight. Because the best way to keep traffic moving on icy roads is to throw on a bunch of lights and sirens and make people try to pull over and stop on icy roads. Aggressively, no less.

    Sometimes conditions JUST. PLAIN. SUCK. So, what then, let's get the police darting around all over the place, busting people for being too careful? Genius. Have some patience, some understanding, and don't expect an aggressive ticketing policy to mitigate the complications inherent in mother nature's extreme conditions.

    And seriously, Hooper, the next time it snows, or rains, or there's a baby seal on the beach, or a chupacabra attacks a produce stand, don't use it as a way to gripe about the speed limit on Admiral. Mmmmkay?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

18. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    motorists that stop/park in the middle of a street create a hazard and the SPD has a duty to ticket. further motorists driving obscenely slow are a hazard (it simply is not safe to drive at absurdly slow (5 MPH) speeds that force other motorists to try to pass) and need to be ticketed. most motorists slow to 15 to 20 mph that is appropriate on arterials.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

19. oddreality
    Member Profile

    I have 4 wheel drive and snow tires and still had trouble slip sliding on the ice..You can be prepared and still hit a bad spot.Glad I was not coming in from downtown last evening. I'd have been stuck with the rest of them.
    It's not the snow..it's the ice.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

20. MrJT
    Member Profile

    

    hooper1961 - Get. over. it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

21. Smitty
    Member Profile

    Pedestrians need to be smart as well. If a car is sliding down a hill or trying to gain speed UP a hill don't cross in front just because it is your right, have some common sense.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

22. austin
    Member Profile

    

    I saw a ped cross in front of a firetruck with its lights going earlier. Common sense got buried in the snow it seems.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

23. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    wow, oh, wow...like SPD has the best cars, the most people, the most time, are insulated...do you really think that they have time to come take care of little gripes like yours? It's their duty? You get your butt out there and help your neighbors get out of the road, and home...be a good citizen, and do more than just gripe about all those others that don't know as much as you do (or think you do). Can you tell we really get tired of someone pointing out all the ways other people are "wrong"?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

24. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    my bad; every year the prepared have to pay the price for the unprepared when will the unprepared be penalized for causing massive delays to the prepared?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

25. Andy
    Member Profile

    So, having all the roads of a very hilly major metropolitan area covered in ice during rush hour is a situation that can come off without any troubles? Really? And how, again? By simply punishing people for not being as awesome as you? Giving people tickets is going to make ice...less slippery?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

26. JoB
    Member Profile

    hooper1961..

    today i watched people buzz around me on pavement that was almost clear and then slide into the intersection as they tried to brake at the light.

    i slow down on ice so i never have to stop...

    there are times when slow and steady wins the race
    by completing it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

27. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    i never said not to slow down (but not to an obscenely slow speed); i have said that people that do not know how to drive in snow and are not equipped should stay of the streets and highways.

    it still amazes me how many idiots stop on an uphill grade for stop signs and red lights (it is better to slow down and try to time yourself to no cross traffic (lower traffic intersections) or green light (heavily trafficked intersections) so you do not stop because once stopped you can be stuck!)

    when driving conditions improve they should drive to a vacant snow covered parking lot and practice (btw this can be fun too). or maybe requiring a snow/ice endorsement on a license like a motorcycle endorsement

    Posted 1 year ago #         

28. oddreality
    Member Profile

    Can't learn how to drive in the snow if you never drive in the snow.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

29. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    as andy said, yesterday was a perfect storm. ice + rush hour + inexperienced drivers = disaster. if the cold front had passed through 4 hours later, SDOT, KC, and WSDOT would have had no trouble keeping the roads clear.

    the city did prepare for a snow/ice event, and very thoroughly. but when roadways which suck at rush hour on dry days freeze and re-freeze during rush hour, how exactly is a salt/sand/plow truck supposed to get to the bridge? fly over the immobile cars and jackknifed buses? same thing with cops, ambulances, and tow trucks. unlike on dry days, drivers couldn't just ease over to the right to allow utility and emergency vehicles through.

    i will suggest this as a better response, though:

    SDOT should have closed one lane in each direction on the high bridge at the first sign of trouble; a lane dedicated solely for the use of salt/sand trucks, tow trucks, emergency vehicles, etc. maybe even remove some jersey barriers so they can respond in force to incidents in either direction.

    and maybe some thought should be put into electric ice-melters in the bridge deck, like the new I-35 bridge in minnesota has.

    i'll close with a rant, though: wtf happened to the new traffic info sign boards??

    Posted 1 year ago #         

30. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    btw, i have a VW golf that handles great in the current conditions. if i put chains on, i could scale mt. baker in that car.

    and another thing: i have seen chicago and other major midwestern cities similarly paralyzed from time to time. even places with frequent icy weather get blind-sided, maybe as much as once per season, and they don't accuse their cities' governments of ineptitude.

    then again, those cities have real transit systems.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

31. JoB
    Member Profile

    redblack..

    ah yes... a real transit system.
    the folks commuting by train and light rail got home just fine.

    West Seattle could have been one of those destinations...

    Posted 1 year ago #         

32. JoB
    Member Profile

    oddreality..

    there is plenty of snow in the mountains all winter.
    if you want to learn how to drive in snowy conditions..
    all you have to do is go there and practice.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

33. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    good point JoB

    Posted 1 year ago #         

34. yeah-me
    Member Profile

    

    Wow! I grew up driving in ice and snow in Idaho and I still wouldn't drive on Seattle roads in these conditions. This is not just your average snow on the road around here. It is wetter and icier than many places and when you combine that with steep hills throughout all of the city -- you have a driving disaster. Yea, people could avoid more accidents by going slower and/or staying completely off the roads...but let's be serious...not everyone has the convenience of just staying home in bad weather. Or purchasing snow tires for the few times it snows.

    Many schools didn't close until noon -- depending on where you work or live -- just getting your kids home may have been enough to put you in an accident. The roads were a mess by that time.

    I think the police are correct in closing certain streets. Did you see the bus video on YouTube? It is not like anyone was racing down that street. They were all going as slow as possible and were still not able to stop.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZCyQ3emQg if you missed it@

    Posted 1 year ago #         

35. hoffanimal
    Member Profile

    I'm not sure how the fleet of trucks carrying containers is regulated but it was pretty obvious those vehicles caused a lot of the problems. If a car gets stuck you can go around it, but once a semi is out of commission it's game over. They were a major reason for the total cluster on the first ave. S bridge. Those things one the road during a snowstorm without chains is negligent at best.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

36. JoB
    Member Profile

    hoffanimal..
    i couldn't agree more.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

37. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    So what does it really take to be prepared to drive in serious snow and ice in a city with hills near the water?

    In the blizzard of '78 I drove a cab in Boston/Cambridge.

    I drove a checker outfitted for snow and ice. Its empty weight was 4500 lbs. It had railroad ties mounted as bumpers with winches fore and aft with a combined cable length if 500 ft.

    I spent much of the day pulling people out of intersections where the snow plows had dumped truckloads of snow at the bottom of a hill. Many of them were cop cars, emergency vehicles and bus mechanics.

    I spent 3 hours pulling myself back up an ice covered street by hooking to one light pole after another after getting too close to the break on an incline and sliding 400ft down iced cobblestones.

    No amount of skill, experience or hardware is going to give you traction where there is none.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

38. Carson
    Member Profile

    

    Ken,

    Thats pretty funny. I was just a high school senior during that storm and remember we got lucky, the milk truck got stuck delivering to us (it was a boarding school) so we at least had milk for a few days until we dug out! I can still remember pictures of Rt 128 days later, still just a parking lot. btw, sunny and breezy, high of 68 on the Outer Banks today...

    Posted 1 year ago #         

39. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    I got the snow cab because I was the first one into the cab barn. I dressed in ski pants and parka and a snowmobile suit and a motorcycle helmet to walk in. I am pretty sure I was the only pedestrian out in the middle of the storm at 3 am. I was blown across every intersection from North Cambridge to Central square. The paint was blasted off the top of the helmet.

    I was 24.

    I am still 24 inside this decrepit exterior but I break a lot easier now. I stay home, feed the wood stove and watch the storms through windows.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

40. Carson
    Member Profile

    

    So Ken, was that you that took me home from the Hong Kong back in 1980?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

41. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Carson...I would so love to be in the Outer Banks just about now...it's oh, so beautiful there !

    Posted 1 year ago #         

42. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    WSDOT is currently requiring traction tires to cross the pass. Maybe during the next snow storm in Seattle SDOT will make the same requirement and those don't head the warning and get stuck and block traffic well get fined stiffly?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

43. Al
    Member Profile

    Of course I can then predict that when the required tire removal date arrives that some will complain that it's certainly w/in their rights to leave the tires on and that any fine is impinging on their individual freedom to use said tires w/impunity. Never mind that we still don't have snow covered streets for more than days even at the worst and everyone using snow tires (which are not cheap and you ever tried storing snow tires in an apartment?) would damage the streets quickly - oh, and that would require *more* road maintenance and *gasp* taxes for said maintenance funding which we all know won't happen since, you know, the roads are magically just provided for everyone.

    Or are there enough tire shops available to install and then remove snow tires for every vehicle in the city within a few days? So sure, let's bring on mandatory snow tires just prior to every predicted winter storm - I'm sure the tire stores would love it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

44. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    all season tires or simply tires that are not bald. traction tires do not necessarily have studs thus your statement regarding wear and tear on streets is not fully accurate. or simply do not drive during the snow conditions. if you drive and get stuck and cause delay to other motorists more prepared motorist be willing to pay a fine.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

45. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    At the beginning of this last storm even Cliff Mass, the weather expert, was saying "no snow in Seattle". It caught a lot of people offguard. People who left for work that morning never expected what would happen during the day. We aren't magical creatures who can predict that these things will happen. If we were, everyone would have stayed home that morning. But, the reality of it it, it was a bit of a surprise to everyone, and it was what it was. I'm assuming that you were personally inconvenienced by it? If not...I guess I don't understand the rant. It's a shame it happened. Snow is one of the hardest things to predict around here. Me? I work at home...didn't affect me one bit, except that I had to run my heating source more.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

46. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    yes i was i spent hours in traffic due to people illegally stopping/standing in the roadway

    Posted 1 year ago #         

47. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    well, look at it this way. You weren't alone :) Where's that magic wand that makes everyone else disappear when we need it, huh...

    and it's done and over now...

    Posted 1 year ago #         

48. miws
    Member Profile

    

    What about all of the bus riders, that "did the right thing", by not each clogging up the roads with a single occupancy vehicle?

    They, too, were punished by hours of waiting in traffic, and/or miles of walking home (and those were the able-bodied ones that could do so). And they had tried to make things easier on themselves and others by not even adding a properly equipped SOV to the traffic mix.

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         

49. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    I agree the bus riders who did everything right were unfairly delayed. The people who caused the delay should be cited accordingly.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

50. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    well, hooper, you're home now. chalk it up to experience, laugh a little, and move on. it'll be something to tell your great grandchildren (who will be getting around with jet packs.)

    and remember that if cops and tow trucks can't drive on the stuff, either, then they can't very well cite motorists for impeding traffic or tow them out of the way.

    come to think of it, giving a ticket to someone who can't move his car across an ice sheet (which practically formed under him) seems kind of ridiculous. and if you go down that road, you'll be ticketing every driver that breaks down on the viaduct during rush hour.

    life in the big city...

    for the record, if i was the guy at the top of the bridge who couldn't quite make it over, i would have had the nearest 4WD push me until i could get traction. that's what bumpers are for, after all: contact with other vehicles.

    and i'm sure that i'm not the first one to have had that thought. i'll bet it even occurred to the drivers who were stuck on monday.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.