WSB Forum » Politics

(123 posts)

I-1098: Questions and Answers


  1. WSB Readers:

    Greetings. David Preston here.

    Some time ago, I posted a short piece on I-1098, an initiative that will be on the November ballot asking voters if they want to implement an income tax on wealthier Washingtonians.

    There was much interest in the topic. Good questions were raised and thoughtful arguments were put forward on both sides. Based on that, I decided to put together some of the concerns WSB readers had raised about I-1098, add a few of my own, and ask I-1098's sponsors for an official reply.

    (Disclosure note: I am in favor of 1098 but am not affiliated with the campaign in any way. I simply want to encourage a vigorous debate on this important issue.)

    Below are my questions, along with the I-1098 staff's responses. I hope you will find their answers as helpful as I have.

    Many thanks to Yes on 1098 staffers Jake Faleschini and Sandeep Kaushik for their time and effort in getting this information to me.

    More information on I-1098 is available at this link:

    http://yeson1098.com/

    For a PDF document containing this information, go here:

    http://roominate.com/blogg/1098_Q_and_A.pdf

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Q: What do you think I-1098’s chance of passing in November is?

    A: This is going to be a hard-fought battle, and we expect it to be close. The opposition, which is being funded by a small group of very wealthy CEOs, venture capitalists, and big developers, has pledged to spend millions to stop 1098 because they want to preserve the massive tax advantages that they get under the current system. But we are confident that Washington’s voters will see through the misinformation. When they learn what I-1098 actually does -- cut taxes for the middle class and small businesses while requiring the very wealthy to pay their fair share so we can restore the deep cuts to education and health care -- they like the idea. Given the recent cuts to education and health care services in Washington State, voters realize that we can no longer afford to give the richest Washingtonians a pass on paying their fair share of taxes.
     
     

    Q: How many Washingtonians will have to start paying income taxes if 1098 passes? (I’m not looking for a percentage figure here; I’m looking for a head count.)

    A: The limited income tax provision under 1098 will affect less than 3% of Washingtonians: about 75,000 households out of more than 2.5 million in the state. However, many of those households would also receive tax cuts from the reduction in their property and B&O taxes (although the exact number is difficult to quantify). Thus, the number of households that will pay more tax after initiative 1098 is passed would be significantly fewer than 75,000. And those are the households that are benefitting from our current unfair system, where the wealthy only pay 2.6 percent of their income in state and local taxes while middle class families pay four times that rate.

     

    Q: How much do you estimate it will cost to collect and administer the new tax? How many new government positions will need to be created to do it? Will those expenses come directly out of the revenue raised?

    A: The income tax on the wealthy will be simple to administer. That is because it will be based directly off of adjusted gross income on the federal tax form. Only those who owe any tax will have to file a state tax form, and it will be simple and take only a few minutes to fill out. Section 902 of Initiative 1098 states: “PERSONS REQUIRED TO FILE RETURNS. (1) Only taxpayers with joint income in excess of $400,000 ($200,000 for individuals) are required to file a tax return with the department. The department must utilize such taxpayer's federal tax returns as a primary tool for obtaining taxpayers' information. The department must prescribe a simple supplement of no more than two pages for computing the excise tax owed under this chapter.” Given this simple system, administrative costs will be minimal.

     

    Q: A state income tax has been challenged (and beaten) in our courts before. Do you anticipate any specific Constitutional challenges to I-1098 if it passes? (If so, what might they be based on?)

    A: After consulting with some of the leading tax and constitutional law experts in the state, we are confident that I-1098 is constitutional. There is a state Supreme Court decision from the 1930s that declared an income tax unconstitutional, but all of the precedents that led to that decision have been overturned in subsequent decades. Other states have faced the exact same question and their courts have all decided that an income tax IS constitutional. We expect a challenge if I-1098 passes but we believe the courts will rule in our favor.

     

    Q: I-1098 imposes an arbitrary income threshold of $200,000 ($400,000 for couples.) How did you come up with those numbers?

    A: We studied our current tax system to understand who pays our current tax burden. We found that those who make above those thresholds are paying a far lower percentage of their income in state and local taxes than working and middle class households. In fact, Washington State ranks dead last -- 50th out of the 50 states -- in basic tax fairness, with the middle class paying four times the tax rate of the wealthy. I-1098 will help to restore some fairness to the system.

     

    Q: Under the proposed new tax structure, what would be the difference, in dollars of tax owed, between a single person with a taxable income of $199,999 and another single person with an income of exactly $200,000?

    A: There would be no difference, in dollars of tax owed, between a single person with a taxable income of $199,999 and another single person with a taxable income of exactly $200,000. Neither would owe ANY income tax because the new proposed income tax would only apply to the taxable income a single person makes ABOVE $200,000.

    For example, a single person making an ADJUSTED gross income of $200,100 would pay five dollars in income tax and a person making $200,200 would pay ten dollars in income tax because the first $200,000 is exempt from the income tax. Furthermore, a single person making $200,200 would also likely see a tax reduction from the initiative’s reduction of the Property and B&O taxes and so would still likely pay less in taxes overall.

     

    Q: Historically, one reason Washingtonians have been against a state income tax is that Washington State already has one of the steepest sales taxes in the nation. The sales tax is the most regressive tax there is, hitting the poor the hardest. Why does I-1098 reduce property taxes and the B & O tax, instead of reducing the sales tax?

    A: I-1098 is the best initiative citizens have put forward in over seven decades to improve Washington’s regressive and outdated tax system. It is not going to solve every problem with our tax code, but it is a huge step in the right direction.

    [You are] correct that the Sales Tax is regressive, but so are property taxes. And many economists actually list the B&O tax as the most regressive tax because it is nearly always passed on to consumers (like a sales tax) and can tax the same object or service multiple times. Thus, the effect of a B&O tax is often that of a sales tax on steroids. Eliminating the B&O tax for small businesses makes sense because it will stimulate job creation and help put Washingtonians back to work. Thus, the citizens who put the initiative forward felt that eliminating the B&O tax was a more pressing concern in the short run.

    The citizens who proposed this initiative also spent a lot of time listening to the concerns of average Washington citizens, who felt that property taxes caused them the most hardship. Particularly at a time when so many people are in danger of losing their homes, we wanted to ensure that this Initiative alleviates some of that pressure.

     

    Q: When Washington voters were asked to vote on a state lottery several years ago, they were told by lottery supporters that the money raised would be dedicated to paying for education, but in the end, lottery money was comingled with the general fund and we ended up cutting education funding anyway. I-1098 sponsors say this kind of comingling won’t happen with money raised by a state income tax, but is there any provision in Washington state law that expressly forbids the Legislature from eventually comingling the trust fund money with the general fund if it wants to do that?

    A: When writing 1098, we were very aware of previous actions by the legislature. That is why we built such strict transparency and accountability measures into the initiative. By law, revenues raised by 1098 will not go to the general fund but instead will be directed to a special trust fund that will be dedicated to funding education and health care. The fund will pay for priorities like reducing class sizes, helping students afford a college education at community and four-year colleges and universities, and pay for the voter-approved Basic Health Plan.

     

    Q: Will the money in the trust fund fully restore recent cuts to education and health? If not, what percentage will it restore?

    A: Initiative 1098 will generate enough resources to restore ALL of the money that was recently cut from the Education Legacy Trust Fund for K-12 Education. It will also restore a significant amount of the funding for the recent cuts to health care and higher education.

     

    Q: Some people see I-1098 as creating a potential cash cow for the Legislature. They worry that, two years from now, politicians in Olympia could gradually begin lowering the taxable income threshold set by I-1098. Beyond whatever language you have included in the text of I-1098 is there language anywhere in Washington state law that requires a public vote on new taxes?

    A: Section 1004 of Initiative 1098 states: “The excise tax rates in section 501 of this act may not be increased for any income level without a majority vote of the legislature and submission of the changes to the people for approval.” If the legislature tried to change this language, they would be committing political suicide. And if they did it anyway, it is all but certain that another initiative will be filed to make sure that the public has the final say on any change to the income tax.

     

    Q: When will I-1098 take effect if passed?

    A: If passed, both the tax cuts and the limited income tax provided for in Initiative 1098 will take effect in fiscal year 2012.

     
     

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. I thought this had some useful information, too. It is from a supporting position, but is specifically only attacking dishonest opposition, not honest opposition:

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/trevorgriffey/archives/216216.asp

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Faleschini's response to the question about the chances of I-1098 passing:

    "The opposition, which is being funded by a small group of very wealthy CEOs, venture capitalists, and big developers..."

    Pretty incredible to attack people like John Nordstrom, Howard Behar, Jon Runstad, Tom Alberg, Tim Boyle, and the many other contributors to the opposition, when they've created a massive amount of jobs in this state.

    And btw, the last time I checked on the PDC's website, the opposition had more small donors than the proponents.

    I also had to laugh at Faleschini's response to concerns that the State Legislature may expand the tax downward to everyone:

    "And if they did it anyway, it is all but certain that another initiative will be filed to make sure that the public has the final say on any change to the income tax."

    In other words, let's pass this state income tax because, hey, we can always have another initiative if the legislature expands it downward.

    Question for Faleschini: What side of the debate will you be on when that time comes?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. Gosh, I can only hope they expand this downward. Imagine a tax system that is more fair and equitable to all, and pro-business too boot!! Seems like a no-brainer to me. Yea on 1098, yea for opening the door!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. Create massive amount of jobs? Only because they create massive amounts of profits from which they have benefited entirely too extravagantly for the past 30 years.

    Between 1980 and 2006 the richest 1% of America tripled their after-tax percentage of the nation’s total income, while the bottom 90% have seen their share drop over 20%. Between 2002 and 2006, it was even worse. Three quarters of all economic growth was captured by the top 1%.

    Must we continue to reward economic elites for making us serfs in their duchies? Requiring them to contribute some of the obscene wealth they have amassed is not only logical it is a moral imparitive.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    C@lbob,

    They made massive profits because they put forth a product that people wanted to buy.

    It's called capitalism. You create something people want, they buy it, you make money. Then, you put that money back into the economy by buying things. In turn, the economy grows and expands.

    From the AP this week:

    "Economists say overall consumer spending has slowed mainly because the richest 5 percent of Americans -- those earning at least $207,000 -- are buying less. They account for about 14 percent of total spending. Think of the wealthy as the main engine of the economy: When they buy more, the economy hums. When they cut back, it sputters."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100801/ap_on_bi_ge/us_wealthy_cut_back

    Yeah, probably not the right time for a high-earners income tax in WA...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. The numbers the AP has are total bunk and defy any logic in Wa State. The wealthy, those earning over 250k a year pay less as a % of income then those earning less that 100k. Do the wealthy buy more taxable items? Perhaps, but only marginally so. What they do with their money, travel, save, invest is not taxed locally. Its time they pay at a minimum, what the rest of us pay.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    And how exactly are the AP's numbers "total bunk"?

    Because they make it hard to justify a state income tax in WA, or...?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Oh, btw:

    "Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax" - Yahoo! Finance

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

    "The result is a tax system that exempts almost half the country from paying for programs that benefit everyone, including national defense, public safety, infrastructure and education. It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners -- households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 -- paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government."

    Talk about "fair share"...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. Total BS. Please take your crap and shove it. Unless you have actual WA state stats, AP, Yahoo, mean nothing to us. Our current system is unfair and anti business. We need a state income tax, we need lower sales tax and for those business owners that actually hire people, lower business taxes. But by all means, keep giving us links that have NOTHING to do with local matters. Duh....

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Please, list for us all the small, medium and large business owners that make more than 200k.

    The Nordstoms, Gates, Schultz's, etc don't count, they are not business owners, all those companies are public, the taxes they pay, or not, should have zero influence on hiring.

    So, again, please, who that makes over 200k (400 if they are married) has said they will hire less as a result of a potential tax. There might be many that say they will hire less, because they hate any taxes, but who among them actually will have to pay an income tax?

    I will wait for that list...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    You DO realize that I-1098 doesn't lower the sales tax, right?

    And how is national news about the wealthy not relevant to our state? You think our wealthy are different from the wealthy in the 49 other states? That they somehow act differently when it comes to spending/saving? That their federal income taxes don't count toward the overall total?

    And btw, Carson. Where are you getting your numbers showing the rich in WA don't pay enough? The EOI? ITEP?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    "So, again, please, who that makes over 200k (400 if they are married) has said they will hire less as a result of a potential tax."

    Carson, you honestly don't believe that businesses will abstain from hiring new workers due to having to pay a state income tax?

    The ironic thing is that among Washingtonians aged 18-29, 51% support this income tax (PPP poll). What they fail to realize is that if I-1098 passes, it's THEM who won't be hired by businesses that are forced to freeze hiring.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. WAPol,

    The AP numbers defy logic, your logic at least, because the taxes on the rich are as low as they have been in 80 years - what is keeping these engines of capitalism from spending now?

    It's called greed. They have theirs and they are keeping it. Trickle down was, is and will always be total bunk. The way you get the A-holes to invest in the USA is to penalize them if they don't, firstly by a confiscatory tax on wealth that isn't fueling your beloved capitalism. Another tax to put back to historic levels is the inheritance tax.

    That Yahoo number you quote ignores employment taxes: SS, Medicare, unemployment, etc. The rich consider these some sort of welfare, mainly because they don't need them. What they do need is to benefit from the relatively high taxes we working stiffs have to pay on our incomes, and believe me, I am not one who escapes federal income tax.

    Give it a rest, Pol, your welfare for the wealthy pitch is a bust.

    Are you poor, forlorn, and hungry
    Are there lots of things you lack
    Is your life made up of misery
    Then dump the bosses off your back

    Don't wait for them to trickle it to you, boys, grab their balls and squeeze.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. Again, please, the list, if any, of business owners that will hire fewer employees, or fire more, as a result of having to pay a State Income Tax (please only site business owners that make over 200k ).

    We are waiting for that list (but know it will never come)

    ......

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. A hint. People that make over 200K and hire illegals to cook and garden, don't count...

    ......still waiting.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. Carson, I am always suspect of someone who answers with a question when you ask them one. To me, it's a sign that they really have no idea what they're talking about...they are simply regurgitating what they've heard. And...Yahoo Financial? Are we serious here? There are much more credible sites than anything Yahoo has to offer, IMO.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. JanS,

    We all know the answer, but will they admit it? nah....

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. WAPolitico: You've got guts. I admire that in a politico.

    You are now officially in my will. (Would you like the Dell laptop that has a punctured screen but still works, or would you prefer the Mamie Eisenhower commemorative plate set?)

    As for the rest o' youse lugs, I've got a question. I'm not saying that this would taint your studied opinions on the matter or anything, but is there anyone here who will actually have to pay any tax under I-1098?

    I know I won't. And frankly . . . I'm loving it. It's the one time I've ever been really glad I was poor.

    —That and the time this scruffy guy at the bottom of the off-ramp on 145th asked me if I could spare a buck.

    And then I thought about it for a minute. —You know what I mean? I really thought about it.

    And then I said "Nope."

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. DP, you are right about Politico, he is nuts for sure! I am still waiting for the name of that business owner who will lay off employee's if he has to pay a state income tax.

    An example might be:

    My name is John Galt, I own John Galt Plumbing. Last year I made $230,000. If I am forced to pay $11,000 in state income taxes I will be forced to fire 3 employee's.

    Of course there is no logic in that, for the same reason the argument has no merit.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. I agree with you in this respect, Carson: we should be tough on people who make unsupported claims or cite statistics without backing them up.

    So I like your line of attack on this.

    However, I don't like that you told WAPolitico to "take your crap and shove it." I think that might just have given him the excuse he was looking for to bug out of here before you could deliver the death blow to his arguments.

    I know the Blogosphere is not for sissies. I'd just like to see this particular forum be a place where people can take a chance on making an unpopular argument without being spoken to harshly.

    I see this as a distinct possibility. :-)

    —D.P.

    P.S. Yes, I well remember what an ass I've been on this forum, acting smarmy and putting people down for just for questioning my point of view.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. DP,

    Politico has an agenda, like others, they post BS and move on. ie, nothing more than crap. He won't/can't back up anything. You are also smart enough to smell them out.

    Sure, my approach can be a little over the top, but if you don't call out those pushing their own narrow special interest then others might actually accept what they say as fact.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. WaPolitico...

    ok.. let's say your arguments have merit..

    so could you go back through that list of Washington high earners who hasn't laid off workers since 2007 or better yet has added to their payroll since 2007?

    and a question...

    in a state where sales tax has replaced income tax as a tax structure..
    how do we replace the income from the lost sales tax of that 14% of state sales tax income ?
    because according to your references those who would be affected by the new tax aren't spending now.

    "From the AP this week:
    "Economists say overall consumer spending has slowed mainly because the richest 5 percent of Americans -- those earning at least $207,000 -- are buying less. They account for about 14 percent of total spending. Think of the wealthy as the main engine of the economy: When they buy more, the economy hums. When they cut back, it sputters."

    I really don't understand the logic here.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. Jiggers
    Member Profile

    Jiggers

    Look..unless you guys understand that the State Of Washington's goal is to squeeze the middle-class out, you're going to drown in your own mud soon. They have for years been unkind to small business owners and lower-income families. It is, and has been, their goal to make Seattle a place of wealth $$$$$ wise. If you can't read between the lines, you're already drowning. I'd be glad to give more money to the government if I was making what the top 5%centile is. That tells me I'm doing better. Maybe I'm off my rocker. Oh yeah.. I am all for state income tax too.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

  25. Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. Seattle Friendly
    Member Profile

    It's pretty clear that "WAPolitico" is a troll working for the Defeat 1098 camp. All the comments he made are straight from their website.

    In response to WaPolitico's suggestion that the legislature will simply extend this tax to everyone in the future: that's just plain dumb.

    If history is any guide to the future, the state legislature will NOT expand this income tax downward. They haven't implemented an income tax in Washington State in the last 130 years, so why would they do it now just because this initiative is passed? There's no logic in that at all. To do so after this initiative is passed and thus to extend the income tax only on the lower and middle class, would be political suicide -- as Mr. Faleschini said.

    That said, I agree with some of the other commentators who suggested that the legislature SHOULD extend this income tax down. But I would only be in favor of it if the legislature used the expansion of the income tax to reduce the state sales tax. The state sales tax must be the next to go!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    So let me get this straight,

    I'm both "nuts" and a "troll", and Yahoo! Finance and the Associated Press are not credible media outlets.

    Got it.

    Let's be real here. You'll disparage *any* source I quote, so why waste my time answering your questions? If you don't believe any businesses will freeze hiring or that any wealthy people will leave the state, then great. No statistics or data I show you will change your opinion.

    The quotes I posted from the AP and Yahoo! Finance are reality. If you don't want to accept reality and instead attack the source, feel free. Whatever makes you feel better about supporting a state income tax in the middle of a recession.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. Troll and nut are people being nice, this is a family paper after all....

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. WA Politico...and now you have an excuse for not answering any questions...convenient. We don't want you to slink away. We just want you to back up what you are claiming. It's called being part of the discussion. We can't have a discussion with you if you decide that you are just not going to talk. I can't come on here and make some claim about something that I just pulled out of a hat. People would want me to state something a bit more specific, too. That's not the truth you're spouting, whatever the source. That's more like...gossip ! It's the story that starts one way, and after it's been through the grapevine, it ends up with things in there that may or may not be true. So...someone asked for you to back it up. A shame you aren't willing, or just can't....maybe you'd be taken more seriously if you did, huh...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. WAPolitico! Good to see you back, dude!

    I'm afraid I agree with Carson's logic on this. It's hard for me to imagine a successful Washington business owner who would lay off workers because of having to pay an additional few thousands in personal income taxes each year. But if you know of one personally, this would be a good time to tell us about it . . .

    Sure, maybe said businessman could beat the tax if he simply pulled up stakes and relocated to, say, Alabama. But then, hey . . . he'd have to live in Alabama, right?

    —Not that there's anything wrong with living in Alabama, but presumably our guy liked Washington, or he wouldn't be here in the first place. Right?

    And then there's the cost of moving, leasing or building a new plant, training new workers, etc. And maybe, after all this fuss and expense, Alabama's infrastructure won't even be able to support the business. Good roads/schools/water/health care count for something too, don't they?

    All things to think about . . .

    Your argument implies that Washington business owners in the $200,000+ income bracket are living on the razor's edge of profitability, and that is kind of hard to see. Two hundred grand is a good living, methinks—even in this somewhat pricey state.

    Granted that there is a tax threshold beyond which businesses WILL relocate, but I don't think I-1098 takes us anywhere near that. (Hint: Here is something you might want to look into for the future. Somewhere on the Internet there's got to be a chart on this.)

    People often make a similar argument against raising the minimum wage: that it will cost jobs. But I believe experience shows that not to be so.
    The kinds of jobs that pay minimum wage tend to be service jobs anyway. Baristas, bank tellers, food service workers, and so on. Not the kind of jobs a company could exactly pack up and move overseas anyway.

    I mean, who's gonna spend $2000 to fly all the way to Beijing, just to get a taco?

    Yowzah!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. the reality of that "razor's edge of profitability" is that American Corporations just completed an exceedingly profitable year.

    some razor's edge.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Thought I'd post one more article.

    It's from Investment News ("The leading source for financial advisors") and was posted yesterday morning:

    http://www.investmentnews.com/article/20100808/REG/308089976

    "More wealthy migrate south to avoid tax hikes"

    For years, wealthy retirees from high-tax states in the Northeast and Midwest have been streaming to sunny, low-tax Florida. That stream is now turning into a flood.

    “We haven't had a situation like this in quite a few years,” said Greg Rosica, a tax partner at Ernst & Young LLP.

    “We have this impending tax increase, and people are trying to looking for ways to hide from that, but they're not seeing many from the federal perspective. One of the ways they're looking to do it is changing their state income tax rate,” Mr. Rosica said.

    “This move to no-tax states is absolutely big business,” said Thomas Handler, a partner at the law firm Handler Thayer LLP. “People are doing it all day long, and it's ramping up.”

    In addition to Florida, the states that don't tax income are Alaska, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. New Hampshire and Tennessee tax only dividend and interest income.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. No one cares about your articles. What we care about is whats most fair to the greatest number of citizens. An income tax for all is what we need, and if it needs to start with the wealthy, then so be it. The bottom 98% will not be effected no matter how you try and twist and turn your crap.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    See, that's the problem, Carson.

    You *should* care about my articles, because they deal with reality.

    That's now three stories I've posted that you've dismissed out of hand as "crap". That's your prerogative, but it adds nothing substantive to the debate.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. Politico,

    You have yet to make a single point. You are the worlds best at posting links, but most of us know how to do basic searches these days. So, what are the names of a single business person, who will pay taxes on income over 200k that will fire employees as a direct result? I know you don't like direct questions, so I won't expect anything besides another link, to another persons opinions...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Carson, there were several businesses in Oregon that laid off workers *directly* after Measures 66 and 67 were approved.

    I'm amazed that you don't think that's possible.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. So, for maybe the 5th time. Tell me the name, or names of a business owner, in Washington that makes over 200k a year and if he has to pay state income taxes will lay off employees as a result of that.

    Still waiting....but keep spinning!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    I could post 1,000 names and it would make no difference in your opinion. Tell me I'm wrong.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. I asked for one, if you want to give me 1000, go for it. I want to know the name of 1 business owner that will lay off employees as a result of having to pay a state income tax if he makes over 200k. 1 name. Keep in mind, any business owner that is making over 200k is probably not in retail, so any employee he fires is an employee that should directly add to the owners bottom line. If he has anyone on his payroll that doesn't contribute then he isn't smart enough to make that much in the first place. So its a bit of a double edge sword you have stepped on. But I would still love to know one name, let alone 1000.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Let's make a bet. If this passes and there are no companies that lay off workers, I'll buy you a steak dinner. If the opposite happens, you buy me a steak dinner.

    I like my odds...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. So you don't actually know one....let alone 1000

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. WAPolitico: Your excerpt from the "investment news" site is somewhat more effective. It's still not enough to change my mind on I-1098, but it is at least something specific that we can evaluate, without having to do a lot of research.

    Note: Whenever you post a link to an article, it helps if you also briefly excerpt or summarize the main points from the article. Then, if people question your facts or your interpretation of those facts, they can go look for themselves.

    OK, so I'll concede that a few businesses might leave Washington (after I-1098 passes) if they think they can make a better go of it elsewhere. If the owners are moving for purely business reasons, I respect that; it's the logical thing to do. But if they're leaving on idealogical grounds, because they don't think they should have to pay one dollar more in taxes, then I have to say I won't miss them. In any case, I think that some other business owner will be happy to fill their place after they leave.

    As for wealthy retirees jumping ship . . . Yeah, you might have an even better argument there. But the same thing I said for the business owners goes for retirees: Let's say there's a retired couple living in a nice condo in sunny Wenatchee.

    And they're making, say, $400,000 a year on their investments.

    And they're they're getting Medicare.

    And they're getting Social Security.

    And they're getting senior discounst at restaurants.

    And they say, "Oh No!! If I have to pay one more dollar in taxes, then I'm outta here!"

    Well then, all I can say is . . . Bon Voyage.

    But I really don't foresee a mass exodus over this.

    In any case, if I-1098 passes, I will be buying everyone who posted on this thread pizza at Zeek's, because that's how happy I'll be about it.

    And if it fails, I'll gladly buy Politico the steak of his choice.

    Then we'll raise a glass and drink a toast to the proposition that "intelligent men can disagree."

    —DP

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. I am a business owner that like most small busineses is organized as an S-Corporation. So the gross income from my business flows directly to my individual tax return. This means that if the company generates $300,000 in profits, I have to report all of it on my 1040 return. All of this income does not go into my pocket since I must still pay Federal tax, debt service and keep enough working capital on hand to make payroll, buy inventory, etc. I-1098 will take funds from small business owners that they would likely re-invest in the business itself. This will constrain funds that could be use for hiring or capital investment to grow the company. In some cases, a business with tight cash flow (which is common in this credit environment) may have to consider cutting hours or benefits in the wake of sending thousands of dollars to Olympia. These new taxes will undoubtedly be detrimental to small business, as the reduction in B & O and property tazes will not offset their cost. We will make the necessary adjustment to survive, but our state's economy will suffer as a result.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. Good info, KMo. We need more input from folks like you, so we can make a more informed choice in November.

    I'm curious about the "S-Corporation" thing, though. Can you tell us, in a couple of lines, what an S-Corporation is and why a small business owner would choose this form of organization?

    I'm assuming there is some business advantage to you in having an S-Corporation. Is it a tax advantage, perhaps? Also, is there any way you might be able to redirect at least part of your business proceeds so that you would not be paying tax on money that was not, strictly speaking, income?

    —DP

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. KMo, I'd also like to know how much you pay in B&O and property tax?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. Critiques of the argument that states that raise taxes on the wealthy precipitate their flight to lower-tax states:

    Research desk reports: Do millionaires flee high-tax states?

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/06/research_desk_reports_do_milli.html

    "experts on public finance and migration say they have yet to document a substantial “rich drain” in states that have raised income taxes in recent years"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/nyregion/19leave.html?_r=1

    "...To the contrary, the number of high income households in the state has increased sharply during this period..."

    http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/commentary/mary-e-forsberg-facts-dont-necessarily-support-wealth-and-income-leaving-new-jersey

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    A testimonial from Salmo g. at PiscatorialPursuits.com:

    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/609610/Salmo_g.html#Post609610

    Certainly the ABSENCE of state income taxes has had a real impact on my life in Washington:

    a) I moved here to take a job with Microsoft, which Gates & Co. did NOT found in WA, but rather moved here from New Mexico. Beyond being Bill's home, I understand that the absence of a state income tax actually won Washington State a large prize for the past 30 years.

    b) We regularly recruit and hire employees from out-of-state, and bring them here to stable, high-paying positions. The lack of state income taxes lets me offer comparable salaries to them as they are paid by my out-of-state competitors, and for the employees it's like getting a raise...

    I'm very mixed on this legislation.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Julie, take a look at InvestmentNews article I posted.

    The wealthy are leaving high-tax states in droves.

    Can *anyone* tell me why we would want to give up our competitive advantage of being one of just seven states without an income tax? Why would we do that to ourselves? For education? We spend $10,000+ per pupil in this state. For healthcare? The three earmarks in I-1098 are duplications of federal funds.

    What justifiable reason is there to pass this?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. What justifiable reason? Um, its more fair to have a blend of sales/property/income taxes than just relying on one or two of them? I know, no sense injecting common sense at this point.

    Did you find that name yet Politico?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. WAPolitico
    Member Profile

    Carson, look at the testimonial above from Salmo g.

    "We regularly recruit and hire employees from out-of-state, and bring them here to stable, high-paying positions. The lack of state income taxes lets me offer comparable salaries to them as they are paid by my out-of-state competitors, and for the employees it's like getting a raise..."

    Sounds to me like he'd be mighty tempted to lay off some of his workers or refuse to bring any more workers to WA. Hmmm...

    I'll take my steak medium-rare at the Metropolitan Grill, btw. I won't even make you pay for dessert.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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