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How many teachers could we pay for the cost of the Seattle Blue Angels?

Started 9 months ago by kmweiner
Latest reply from kootchman

kmweiner
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Or add art classes or improve the science programs?
The cost to the Seattle area of the blue angels air show is upwards of $130,000. How much does it cost to own the jets and operate them out of the defense budget? In my pacifist/socialist/un-american/thrill killer view point, the Blue Angels are just a slick marketing trinket and swag for our overly expensive war machine (defense accounts for close to 50% of our national budget).

Posted 9 months ago #
MBarrettMiller
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Funny how so many patriotic images are military in nature. Too bad!

Posted 9 months ago #
cjboffoli
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History has demonstrated that throwing money at the problem does little to fix what's broken with American public education. But I have neither the interest or time to debate that never-ending nugget.

With that point aside, the Blue Angels have an annual budget of just over $30 million, which is a tiny drop in the bucket compared with the better part of a half-trillion dollar US annual defense budget. Your time is better spent attacking huge boondoggles like the V-22 Osprey and F-22 fighter jet programs.

And while we're talking about what our government ought to do, maybe we should also think about the decisions we make in our own lives that motivate our government to go and play hard-ball around the world in pursuit of the massive pile of resources that we Americans consume on any given day.

Of all the money our government spends on the military, the Blue Angels are one of the few parts that we actually get to see from our backyards. And I wouldn't discount the educational value they provide in perhaps inspiring young people to pursue careers in things like aeronautical engineering and Naval aviation.

Posted 9 months ago #
metrognome
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I agree with CJB's last paragraph; I think the Blue Angels appearance actually stimulates some kids interest in science and math because of the way the jets capture their attention and fuel their imaginations.

And while I am more dove than hawk, we need our military cuz we live in the real world, not on Fantasy Island. How much we spend on the latest military technology is another issue altogether, esp. when the men and women in the military (and their families) have paid such a high price over the past decade thanks to George Bush's utter incompetence.

Posted 9 months ago #
Smitty
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1?

Didn't realize it was a zero sum game with all these debt ceiling extensions and all.

Posted 9 months ago #
DP
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It's hard to be a pure peacenik when it comes to the Blue Angels. I love to see 'em fly.

Here's hoping they'll inspire the next generation of kids to go into space, not into war.

Smitty, we've missed you!

Posted 9 months ago #
valvashon
Member Profile

Cool! Someone finally starts a discussion of the Blue Plowshares (Angels). Yes, we do need to cut junk like the Osprey and F-22 as well as the Blue Angels. Why can't solving global warming and further developing wind and solar power inspire kids? There's more important things to solve than any challenges in Naval Aviation and Aeronautical Engineering.

Posted 9 months ago #
velo_nut
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For those of you who don't know anything about the Naval or Air force training programs... these birds would be flying ANY WAY. Flight time is flight time, they just happen to be shinier.

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
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Yea.... let's see who inspires the kiddies to stay in school more... our dysfunctional, mission incapable school board or the world best educated, effective, air/ground combat team. Who take on mission achievement as the guiding light mantra of their lives. Thanks to all those F-14 and A-6 jocks who would chomp at the bit to the tinny PRC-25 calls for help.. day,night, wind, rain, ... if humanly posible they were on station. The military is an anathema to most..few understand the total dedication to mission success. Maybe the WEA should take the tour.. I am sure they could collectively bargain for a compensatory day off or over time pay. The military will probably be the first encounter many young men and women have with nothing accepted but achievement, teamwork, sacrifice of self indulgence to a higher purpose. It will be the first place for some where they will held accountable for the health, welfare and safety of themselves, and as they rise through the ranks, those they command. Ask any US Marine Sergeant... during an IG inspection..the big bird never asks about your technical skills..you wear the chevrons, you are assumed to be a competent small unit leader..what he will ask. are your men getting paid? You better know the condition of enlisted base housing and advocate for them if it is problematic...Where are they from? Whose is married. has dependents? If ya got a man in the brig,,,why didn't you see it coming, have you visited him, what is the prognosis of his return to full duty, Any problems with dependents? How are their kids doing in school? How is the physical therapy going on your injured? Whose hometown school just won a sports trophy..? what are you doing to pepare for the next pay grade, can you step in if your Plt Cmdr is KIA..And ya know what? If the school system on base has problems.. the "old man" gets in their business..quick. Ask a school principal the pucker factor when an IG staff member has come calling...You will never know the investment this country has made in a good citizenry through the US military.. Semper Fidelis

Posted 9 months ago #
smokeycretin9
Member Profile

The only thing wrong with schools is the overall anti-intellectualism going on. The want equal outcome of all students. Dont let the smart children get too far ahead of the class or the rest of them will feel bad.
We wouldnt want to hurt the feelings of the mediocre people in the world would we?

Watch the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

sometime. the future is HERE!

Posted 9 months ago #
DP
Member Profile

smokeycretin: Welcome aboard. I assume you're a conservative. Good! We need more conservatives here to balance things out. Please try not to take anything I may say as a personal affront.

kootchman: To the extent I can figure out what you're saying about the military, I agree with you. The military provides just the challenge that some kids need. At the same time, I think there are serious problems with the military mentality that you're ignoring. One of those problems is free will. —As in, soldiers don't have it. Because soldiers are not free agents they're sometimes required to do immoral things. And when they do those things, they rarely have to take the blame, because they were just "following orders." And their COs don't have to take the blame either, because they didn't actually commit the immoral acts. So in the end, immoral acts are committed, and no one has to accept responsibility for them. See how that works?

(See "Iraq war." See also "George W. Bush.")

Let's take military pilots, since we're on the subject. When it comes to flying a jet or attack helicopter, pilots are required to think independently. However, when it comes to launching missiles and destroying "targets" pilots are told to switch off the ethical part of their brains and just do as they're told. This results in many, many civilian deaths.

Remember this? ( http://www.collateralmurder.com/ )

—or would you rather conveniently forget it?

The US military refused to accept ANY responsiblity for the civilians deaths shown above. Regardless of what the military says, though, killing these people was morally wrong. It was a war crime, and "following orders" doesn't make it somehow less of one.

So if you're going to go bragging up pilots and Marines, fine. But just remember that in addition to being loyal, intelligent, well-disciplined men, some of these folks have done some very bad things, precisely because of the way they were trained.

So here's my take on the military ethic in a nutshell:

Personal Achievement = good
Mental Discipline = good
Unquestioning Obedience = bad, very very bad

Let's call that equal time for the peacenik position, shall we?

*************************************************************************************

In memory of Jarod Newlove.

Posted 9 months ago #
smokeycretin9
Member Profile

Sorry DP to disappoint but I am pretty much right down the middle. I dont think America should be spending billions over seas on two wars that are getting us pretty much no where, AND I also dont want my government taking my money and giving it to welfare moms who will not work and have more children to increase the size of their benefit checks.
I work hard. I have learned a trade, provide for my family and dont want my weather redistributed to the idiots of the world, either side of whatever political party they belong to.

Education should be first.

Posted 9 months ago #
sbre
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Semper Fi 'kootchman'.

If it wasn't for my time in the Marine Corps I would likely still be a pampered and spineless rich kids leeching off the sweat of those who get more out of life than most of the 'ble$$ed' in our society.

My time spent in uniform was a collection of invaluable life-experiences which showed & taught me first hand just how GOOD we have it here in the U.S.of A.

There is a lot of good in our country due to having a strong and well equipped military, just as there is a lot of bad due to the same.

But if you've ever had to 'show your papers' just to drive to visit Grandma and Grandpa in the next town, or had to hide your religious practices or sexual preferences, then you know begin to understand the freedoms our military affords us. I’ve been witness to all the above and more first-hand, and along with that is the lawlessness and the lack of a working infrastructure that we unknowingly enjoy day-to-day. (ever had to walk a mile to obtain you daily ration of water from a standing pool and then carry it back home?)

There is a lot wrong with this country and conversely there is a lot right with it, I for one stand on the shoulders of the latter.

Those who endorse our military as examples and inspiration for our youth, I support your stance. Those that feel we need to divert the monies for some of our new fighting toys I understand but have to ask: what language/system of government/monetary unit do you want to rule our country once our weakened and out-dated (sophisticated and domineering equipment) military has been beaten and our boarders breeched?

Let’s put it in other terms that might be more understandable but first you (will probably) need to change you mind-set to make this work. You’re no longer a law abiding citizen, now you are jobless, moneyless and desperate: Lets say you’re intent on robbing a store, would you chose the mom & pop one on this side of the street? Or the one with the two NFL lineman sized guys standing near the entrance on the other?

“I pledge allegiance to the flag...”

Posted 9 months ago #
velo_nut
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Back to the Blue Angel Whiners...

Posted 9 months ago #
DP
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Thanks for your comments, sbre.

First I'll answer your question, then you answer one from me, ok?

—I'd go for the mom & pop store. Definitely. That is, assuming the guys across the street who hired the NFL linemen hadn't gotten to the cash register first. (Either way, Mom & Pop are screwed, aren't they?)

Now here's my question to you, and it involves a much more real-life type of scenario:

You're the trigger-man on an air-to-ground missile launcher. You're eyeballing the "target" along with your CO and some CIA or Defense analyst guys.

The target is a guy carrying a bulky object that MIGHT be a bomb.

Or then again, it MIGHT be a video camera.

He's in the middle of a crowded street; there's a bunch of kids playing there.

Your CO says "fire."

What do you do?

Well?

Posted 9 months ago #
JanS
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and how about those of us who weren't in the marines and don't have that mindset...are we lesser people because of it? What if we were in a different branch of the armed forces, and found it lacking, a far cry from real life? Are we lesser people because of that. Good on you that you served. It doesn't define life for the rest of us, and it doesn't make you better than others. It doesn't make you always right, either. Not everyone who serves comes out of it a fine upstanding human being..it's just like society...there are crooks and felons everywhere.

(and how about how the armed forces , and I'm betting particularly the marines, made many people hide their sexual preferences for many years)?

Posted 9 months ago #
karen
Member Profile

Where did you get the "$130,000" figure? According to the Seattle Times it's $12,000.

"The Navy charged Seafair organizers its customary fee of $6,000 per day of performance, or $12,000 total (no charge for buzzing Seattle and Bellevue during practice Thursday and Friday)."

Posted 9 months ago #
saney
Member Profile

how much $$$$ do you think this sort of event brings to our city??? as someone who works in the hospitality industry...i can tell you it brings in a lot. the people coming into town to see the blue angels are spending money in hotels, in retail stores, in restaurants....adding tax revenue to our city.

Posted 9 months ago #
Smitty
Member Profile

Careful, Saney - it almost sounds like you are saying the economic impacts would "trickle down" through the economy.

People on here don't think that's a valid economic reality - despite the increase in tax revenues post Bush tax cuts........

Posted 9 months ago #
MBarrettMiller
Member Profile

Semper Fi-Koothman.
Watching their predecessors, f4's, coming low and fast over the jungle was a thing of...
Don't recall one high school dropout piloting one of those, or anything else......
War-bad.
Education-good.

Posted 9 months ago #
DP
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Smitty: "Trickle-down" works, and anyone who says it doesn't flunked Economics 101. But there are trickles and then there are trickles . . .

Take two equal piles of money.

Spend one pile building jets that can do neat stunts and blow up 3rd World villages as necessary.

Spend the other pile building roads and schools and growing local businesses.

Guess which spending program generated more jobs.

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
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Dp.. he doesn't drop under that scenario. BTY the CIA ain't in the chain of command.. they can't issue orders. Actually I found the Marines to less threatened than you might imagine. No vet will ever say there were no gay members in their units... at the grunt level...no big deal. who had the time? I know our corpsman was gay.but he was "our" doc..under our umbrella, f__l with him at your peril. . Funny how the AF has had more diversity issues at every level...including the academy...if SecNav and the Commandant says zero tolerance for sexual discrimination and harassment.. that ends the debate. Funny how line units do that... Army grunts out there agree?

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
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DP.. back in the day.. Soviet Kashin class surface ship had a mutiny....( I think it was a missle frigate) recaptured and the results were predictable. Know why? Only three officers aboard could navigate..two were killed and one injured. compare anything in the US fleet bobbing off the pier... there are probably twenty or more sailors aboard that can plot a course and get home.. or away. No one ever asked me, encouraged me, or insinuated I gave up free will...free will carries the day.. always. I suggest you read this... you may understand better the ethos... and no Jan.. any self respecting 101st 82nd, 1st Cav... will tell you we are one breath above pond scum...but in our hearts..yes, we were the annointed... would you want it any other way?

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

here ya go Dp....

http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/co/

These are the men we follow... by free will. I was honored to do so...

Posted 9 months ago #
DP
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Thank you, kootchman.

And now, out of respect for the 30 Navy Seals (and 7 Afghans) lost in the helicopter shoot-down today, I'm shutting up.

Posted 9 months ago #
Cait
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Velo - how have I never heard of the Seattle Salmon before?! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Posted 9 months ago #
jamminj
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"You will never know the investment this country has made in a good citizenry through the US military.."

Yet we saddle them with the largest government run, dictated, military health care system. Both for the activity duty and veterans.

for many who believe government shouldn't be in health care, that private enterprise knows best... interesting that you pump up the largest socialistic program (military), and decide to give them the largest government run health care. just find it ironic.

and you want talk about 'small' government? yet you raah raah the military... talk about hypocrites.

and being a military brat, and serving 8 years myself... our military screams anything except small government.

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

It's a biggie alright. As it should be. Lots of vets out there. It was a fair bargain...it was part of the contract... go forth at cheap wages, and if you are hurt, we will provide for you, give ya a shot at college when you are done, a hole in the ground at a national cemetery, a Flag for the coffin, and I think $200 bucks to defer the expense.. Trust me on this one... it's not the first choice. First ya have the sue them..Agent Orange..Gulf War Syndrome,..all denied coverage until the American Legion, VFW, AmVets etc.,brought civil suits and political heat.. it took over 30 years to PTSD recognized as mental trauma...imagine that? . Good place to get cheap meds though...because unlike Medicare Congress allows the VA to seek competitive bids for meds. And.. jamminj... just so ya have the complete picture..our "promised" care.. Jimmy Carter decided to means test eligibility effectively eliminating coverage for the middle class vets..I was billed by the VA for X-Rays to my neck and the radiology consult..$1200 The VA does not cover active duty either...the word "veteran" means no longer active duty.. that is covered by the various medical commands. Bethesda, Madigan, Balboa etc.. (They closed the rat infested Walter Reed last month.. after THAT scandal) , being the places where active duty men and women go.

Posted 9 months ago #
kootchman
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God rest the men of the Eagle/Trident/Pistol ...

Posted 9 months ago #