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1. yikes
   Member Profile

   I live very close to this site and so I took notice of the recommendations from this panel. The panel was comprised of all homeless advocates and no community representatives were included. BTW, the site is not in Camp Long, it is the grassy area on the east side of 35th at the bus stop. It is one of seven sites recommended.

   Here's my biggest problem: We know that some/many? sex offenders become homeless, sometimes so that they do not have to be identified to an address. Some of those could end up in this permanent encampment. The location is across the street from Mount St. Vincent's Nursing home, which has a large daycare population. And my community has many families. I'd really like to know what the criteria the homeless advocates used and if it included safety of the community.

   I wrote to Mayor McGinn early this week and haven't heard back from him.

   I'm planning on talking with our neighborhood rep Tom Rasmussen.

   Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if you know anyone who has a child at St. Vincent's, please let them know that this is a possibility. And I would like to hear from anyone similarly concerned with this proposal. Thank You... and thank you Patrick for getting my account straightened out!

   Posted 1 year ago #         

2. PDieter
   Member Profile

   

   Those flat spots are just short of swamp land. It would become a mud-pit in a matter of days except in July/Aug. I suspect you've got nothing to worry about.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

3. JoB
   Member Profile

   yikes..

   the sexual predator you really need to worry about already exists among your family and friends.

   Read the statistics. They are appalling.

   Inventing some outside source of bogymen won't protect your children.

   Education and open communication will.

   Sexual predators get away with molesting children because they convince your kids that telling their parents will make bad things happen to their family or that their parents already know or that they won't believe them.

   Since the predator is generally a trusted adult in your family circle.. your kids believe them:(

   As for the encampment you don't want in your back yard.. PDIeter is right.. that isn't a likely spot.

   Aside from the mud ..
   there is no way to screen it from the public eye.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

4. KBear
   Member Profile

   Yikes--that's a good screen name--JoB is right. The homeless have enough to worry about without people accusing them of being child molesters.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

5. flowerpetal
   Member Profile

   

   Yikes indeed! Where did you get your information that some/many sex predators become homeless so they can't be followed via the registry. I would like to know the source you used for this.
   Tent Cities and the surrounding area have a statistically lower crime rate in the neighborhoods they are in. A Tent City comes... the crime rate goes down, not up. Tent City residents patrol their surroundings on an organized system. It has been shown repeatedly that the crime rate will drop in the neighborhoods around homeless encampments. Ask SPD. Ask the King County Sheriffs Office.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

6. yikes
   Member Profile

   Ok, first off, PDieter and JOB, this is a permanent homeless encampment and it is one of seven recommended to the Mayor as a permanent homeless encampment... it will have running water and electricity... and it will be built so that the mud will not be an issue.

   JOB, KBBear, Flowerpetal: Ask the King County Sheriff about the number of convicted molesters that do not have addresses... when they don't have addresses, then their location can't be identified on the offenders site.

   Job: Statistically you are right... so I'm not supposed to be concerned about the population I mentioned above? The incidence of a sexual molester being near the daycare may be low, but the impact of the one that is there could be HUGE. That is why there are rules for how close predators can be to schools... even though they are, as you say, mostly family members. The population I'm worried about has already been convicted of molestation.....

   And I've got to say to all of you that it would have been nice if you had read the information more carefully before attacking my comments. What happened to intelligent discourse about ideas instead of jumping to condemn the poster?

   Posted 1 year ago #         

7. yikes
   Member Profile

   http://www.usatoday.com/.../2007-11-18-homeless-offenders_N.htm

   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/26/AR2008122601722.html

   Flowerpetal: I couldn't find the study done in Washington on homeless convicted sex offenders, but here are two articles about this trend.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

8. velo_nut
   Member Profile

   

   Put em in the industrial area. No room for them here. Hate to sound heartless but there's more room for them down there and more access to public transportation.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

9. JoB
   Member Profile

   yikes...

   there is already a sexual predator living near your local day care center. If they aren't registered, it's because they haven't been caught and prosecuted yet.

   As for registered sex offenders choosing to be homeless so they can't be registered.. even the article you cited stated it's far more likely that they are homeless because they can't find a place to live... not because they are avoiding registering.

   It's difficult to register an address for an illegally pitched tent. the "not in my backyard" thing really backfired when it came to registered sex offenders... if they can't find a place to live.. they could be anywhere.

   the statistics just plain don't support your contention that tent cities are dangerous because they harbor convicted sex criminals avoiding registration.

   besides.. if these are really going to be permanent camps ... i suspect the residents going to be required to register.

   That should ease your fears.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

10. yikes
    Member Profile

    Well, I don't advocate that.. but what would be wrong with using land that is not already part of another community?

    There are many people forced into homelessness due to the economy... many of us could be one step away if there was a catastrophic illness in the family.

    So this effort, in general, is compassionate and could work in our city. But it is irresponsible to recommend placing them where there could be harm, if there are other possibilities.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

11. JoB
    Member Profile

    yikes...

    you don't want to isolate them in the industrial area but you still want them in someone else's community?

    and whose do you suggest?
    White Center? Burien? Northgate?

    I am guessing children and retirement facilities exist in those neighborhoods too.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

12. AlkiKmac
    Member Profile

    

    It's a stretch to say a sex offender that hasn't registered an address is homeless. Maybe they aren't complying and don't want authorities to know where they are. They could indeed have a roof over their head.

    "...what would be wrong with using land that is not already part of another community?" Not a thing. Where do you suggest? Rather than be a NIMBY, try to be part of the solution.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

13. PDieter
    Member Profile

    

    Please provide me with a link to an explanation of drainage construction, foundation pours, or complete decking of the area. Because without one or more of these that spot is unlivable and I'm not seeing that kind of explanation in the links I'm finding.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

14. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    I don't understand why people insist on branding all homeless people as somehow being bad and harmful people. Yes, there but for the grace of all the gods that be, go a bunch of us. So, if I have to go live in a homeless camp, I can't be around other "communities"? I have to be isolated, because, heaven forbid..I'm homeless, we don't want it mixed in with more successful people? Oh, no, we can't have that...after all, I'm homeless, I must be a criminal element. And I should be invisible. That's what I'm hearing here...and it's wrong. That may not be what is meant, but it's definitely what I'm hearing.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

15. hopey
    Member Profile

    

    Um. A "permanent homeless camp" is an oxymoron. Especially if it's built out with electricity, running water, and sanitary facilities.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

16. TammiWS
    Member Profile

    

    Yikes-thanks for pointing out that WS is one of the possible sites for an encampment.

    Flower- thanks for your comments.

    Obviously not all homeless are sex offenders (but some will be), not all are mentally ill (but some are), not all are convicts (but some are), not all are harmful (but some are) - its not irrational or wrong for Yikes to be concerned.

    I work downtown and rarely see a sober, just out of work, clean cut guy holding a sign and looking for a job. I would ask anyone on this blog to consider an encampment being placed within a block of their home - how would you feel- really....?

    Would you go out and volunteer to help, or would you really rethink safety at some point? Would you warn your neighbors this was in place 'just in case', would you be part of a block watch etc...People engage in these activities for far less than an encampment being placed in their neighborhood.

    I know I'd be less likely to go to that bus stop at 6am in the dark if the encampment is placed there. And I often go to the stop on 35th and Avalon at that time and may rethink that too. NOT because I think everyone who is homeless is a high risk, but I dont want to take the chance even if its 1% risk.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

17. yikes
    Member Profile

    No where in this post did I paint all homeless as a criminal element... I talked about an, admittedly small minority that I am concerned about.

    Job: Again, you misread my comment... I never said that homeless are choosing to be homeless to avoid registration. I said that 'sometimes' they choose it for that reason. Please don't twist my words. And why they are homeless is not the point of my post... it is that if they are in the homeless population across the street from Mount St Vincent's, that concerns me.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

18. JoB
    Member Profile

    Yikes and TammiW...

    according to reports..
    homeless camps go in.. crime stats go down.
    down is the opposite of up.
    that would mean that you would actually be safer with a homeless camp next door.

    would i want them in my neighborhood?
    Yes, i think i would.

    ****

    for giggles.. i just looked for stats...
    and i am not finding them.

    i did find an article in 2005 though about tent cities in our area that includes info from King Co police...

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20050213&slug=tentcity13e

    and this from Mercer Island looking at police reports for the tent cities that were in Issaquah and Kirkland...

    http://www.mercergov.org/page.asp?navid=2514

    As this site was used as a link in a discussion i found at the University of Washington's paper .. i went back and pulled down the Mercer Island police reports...

    what i found was camp security that patrolled the camp and turned people with known warrants over to the police.

    The reality doesn't match the horror stories when the camp is well run.. as ours are.

    do a little research on tent cities in Washington.

    I think you will be surprised at what you actually find.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

19. waterworld
    Member Profile

    

    Yikes and everyone else who is commenting about sex offender registration. It might ease your mind, or it might not, to know that being homeless or "lacking a fixed residence," does not spare a sex offender from registration. In fact, the reporting requirements for the homeless are more onerous. A sex offender who does not have a permanent home is required to report in person each week to the county sheriff and provide information about where he or she is living. RCW 9A.44.130. If a tent encampment becomes a permanent home, then the offender registers the same way other offenders with homes do.

    Also, homeless offenders who are on what's called "community custody" (which ordinary people call probation) may be required by the county to wear an electronic GPS tracking device, usually an ankle bracelet. RCW 9.94A.704(5). The length of community supervision varies, but it is generally three years for sex offenders. And if the court finds that the offender needs a longer period of supervision, it can order community custody to continue for up to the maximum allowable sentence for the original crime, which could be ten or twenty years or more, depending on what the crime was. RCW 9.94A.709.

    Of course there are always sex offenders who don't register. That's a separate crime, and homelessness is not a defense. If the person is wearing a GPS bracelet, it's much harder for him or her to vanish into a homeless community.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

20. yikes
    Member Profile

    Waterworld:

    Thank you! You are the first person that actually responded to my concern instead of telling me 1) that I shouldn't be concerned and 2)telling me what a bad person I am for being concerned! People really love to hijack threads on this blog!

    Anyway, your info helped a great deal... my understanding from your information is that if there is a sex offender at the permanent encampment, then they can be identified and the community notified (through the website) that they are there?

    This makes sense to me and would put them on the same footing as the offenders in my community that are on the website.

    Is there any provision that these offenders stay away from the daycare at Mount St. Vincent's because of the many children?

    Thank You!

    Posted 1 year ago #         

21. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    just so everyone knows...there are already sex offenders in the area...and the same question could be asked...is there any provision that these guys stay away from the daycare at Mt. St. Vincent? I'd be willing to answer "no" on that..

    http://tinyurl.com/2vsrxtg

    Yikes...no one ever said you were a bad person for being concerned...but sometimes we have to deal with the bogeyman who IS there instead of the bogeyman who may or may not be there in the future.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

22. JoB
    Member Profile

    Yikes...

    If you focus all of your concern about sex offenders on the homeless..
    or some other media generated bogyman...
    you will miss the predators in your children's lives.

    It's that simple.

    I don't tell you that because I want you to be wrong.

    I tell you that because i don't want your children to become another statistic.

    The effects of child molestation last a lifetime.

    I know because i am one of those who was systematically molested by a family member at a very early age.

    Talk to your children openly and honestly about what is ok and what isn't..
    especially about when tickling crosses the line...
    and encourage them to ask you questions... any questions.

    A child whose questions are treated with respect and by their parents... and who are given thoughtful answers to the question they asked instead of cross examinations or lectures ...
    doesn't fear coming to them when any adult makes them uncomfortable.

    You need not confront adults in your child's life with child molestation if your child is uncomfortable. All you have to do is tell them that their actions have made your kid uncomfortable... that is enough to educate those who cross the line without being aware of it and to warn off most predators.

    Sexual predators fear exposure and will generally look for an easier target if a child tells them they don't like what they are doing and follows that up with a loud and emphatic NO.

    None of us can protect our children from psychopaths ... but we can do a great deal to improve the odds that children never become just another statistic.

    BTW.. it isn't highjacking a thread to talk about the existing sexual predators in your family and your neighborhood when you make child predators the centerpiece of your concern about a homeless camp.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

23. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    and, Yikes..you have concerns, so make sure you voice those concerns to the powers that be when they start having meetings to decide where this homeless camp will be situated. Be vocal, and make sure they answer your questions satisfactorily. We can sit here and talk about it all day...but the decision makers need to know how the communities feel.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

24. yikes
    Member Profile

    JoB:

    Once again you did not read my comments carefully and you galloped off with what you wanted to expound on rather than what I said. That is not a problem... comment away. But what is a problem is that you attribute comments and beliefs to me that are no where in my postings.

    For instance, your last post: "If you focus all of your concern about sex offenders on the homeless..
    or some other media generated bogyman...
    you will miss the predators in your children's lives".

    Nowhere did I say or infer that my only concerns were homeless sex offenders... I am educated about the homeless population in my community that is identified and also the possiblities that are not identified. I expressed a concern about a new situation that I wasn't sure about... how it will be identified and controlled and you went off in each of your posts to misrepresent what I said in order to pontificate. This may sound harsh, but if you want to communicate you might just try to listen to other's once in a while rather than galloping off on your own soapbox.

    JanS: Yes, thank you, I'm not normally an advocate kind of person, but Waterworld educated me and I think it is important to ask questions
    even if some people don't want to hear them. In general, I think this idea has merit and I just need to learn more.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

25. JoB
    Member Profile

    Yikes...

    did i somehow misunderstand?

    "Here's my biggest problem: We know that some/many? sex offenders become homeless, sometimes so that they do not have to be identified to an address. Some of those could end up in this permanent encampment."

    LOL... how could i have gotten it so wrong?
    And i thought you were so clear.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

26. waterworld
    Member Profile

    

    Yikes: If Mount St. Vincent has child care or day care facilities or is a school or something like that, the law provides for notice to the school/child care facility of sex offenders in the area, and there are also provisions that restrict sex offenders from living near it.

    RCW 4.24.550 covers the various public notice options. The nature and type of public notice about sex offenders depends on the risk level assigned to the individual offender. Level I offenders are those that are deemed to be the lowest risk for reoffending, and there's less notice to the community about them (although I believe you can still find them on the website). For Level II offenders, detailed information about the offender is given to schools, child care facilities, libraries, businesses, service organizatons, and neighbors and community groups near the offender's residence and near places where the offender "is regularly found." For level III offenders, information is provided to the public at large, usually by way of mailings and community meetings.

    Apart from the offenders risk classification, the statute provides for notice to the community of any sex offenders who are homeless or transient.

    The state also has some ability to control where sex offenders live. Washington has not, to my knowledge, adopted any of the draconian measures that basically force all sex offenders to live under a freeway bridge (which is what Miami did). In this state, sex offenders are required to prepare a residential plan before they can get out of prison. They are not released until their plan has been approved. If the victim of the sex offense was a child, the state is authorized to reject a proposed residence that is in "close proximity" to schools, child care centers, playgrounds, or other grounds or facilities where children similar to the crime victim are present.

    After an offender is released, the probation officers supervising him or her enforce the provisions of the residential plan. Obviously, sex offenders cannot always stick with their initial plan, and it is true that many end up homeless due to their criminal record. The law does, however, require the state to keep the community where the offender is residing, even as a homeless person, informed, and sex offenders can be force to move away from child care facilities and schools while they are on supervision.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

27. yikes
    Member Profile

    Waterworld: Thank you so much, you really went to the heart of my concerns and the questions I asked. It seems from your comments that an offender that is in a permanent encampment is identifiable and subject to the same constraints as one that is in a residence near the daycare.

    One last question, since the proposed permanent encampment is across the street from Mount St Vincent and it has a large daycare, would there be any restrictions on an offender living there?

    Thank You again.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

28. flowerpetal
    Member Profile

    

    Yikes, you have concerns for the children at Mt. St Vincent, and for the elders too. I don't find that disagreeable, in fact it is to me, a genuine concern. Still, I think it is misguided. The homeless encampments have been hosted by several churches and organizations which have daycares and programs for the elderly. This has happened in Woodinville, Mercer Island, and here in Seattle (and just across the hill from us on Beacon Hill) El Centro de la Raza has a childcare program that is top rated and well respected in the community. Their playground abutted with the tent city they hosted for multiple weeks.
    I'm all for you writing the Mayor and I bet you will get a reply albeit not as quickly as you wish. You will also get a response from Tom Rasmussen's office; although it might not be the answer you will want, they will respond.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

29. TammiWS
    Member Profile

    

    Thanks Waterworld and Flower for your insight and comments - much appreciated.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

30. waterworld
    Member Profile

    

    Yikes: The way I read the law, the State or City could not issue a blanket order to keep all sex offenders out. The people most likely to be prohibited from living there are child sex offenders who are still on probation and any kind of high-risk (Level III) sex offenders. Sex offenders who are getting released from prison will very likely not be allowed to live in any kind of encampment like this. The decisions about who can live there would be made on a case-by-case basis by people in the department of corrections, with input from local law enforcement.

    The strengths of this approach are just that -- there's no blanket order of exclusion and there are individualized determinations. There are weaknesses, too. A sex offender, just like a person with no criminal history, can fall on hard times and end up homeless, even if he or she had a good residential plan and a job and all that. If the offender is no longer on probation, then the only ongoing requirement is registration. An offender who's registering as homeless or living in an encampment is going to prompt more monitoring by law enforcement, but the sheriff can't force the offender to move. So there are few options for the state or city government to prevent sex offenders from living in an encampment.

    Also, most offenders don't have to register for their entire lives, so there comes a time when the offender is just not being monitored anymore.

    However, and it's a big however, nothing prevents the government of the encampment from adopting rules that prevent convicted sex offenders from living in the encampment. Most tent cities have some kind of governing body, and I have read that they often exclude offenders with records of child molestation and rape. I think it is appropriate to raise the issue with city and county officials and to ensure that there's some coordination between the encampment governing body and the surrounding community to adopt rules that are appropriate for the community situation.

    Given that not all offenders would necessarily be excluded, I think nearby residents have to decide for themselves whether the risk associated with some, but not all, kinds of sex offenders living nearby is more than they are comfortable with. I think it's critical to communicate with local police and city and county legislators about long-term community protection. The Sheriff's website for searching in your community for any sex offenders, including the homeless and transients, is very handy. It allows you to sign up for e-mail alerts concerning certain individuals and concerning any offender in the area who has become non-compliant with registration requirements.

    Finally, if you are concerned about these issues, you probably already know that most child sex offenses occur in one of two places: the offender's home or the victim's home. So one approach is to work with law enforcement and the encampment government to also keep children who don't live in the encampment out. People like you who live nearby may want to do more to keep strangers off your property and out of your home, too. Or even show your kids the photos of the individuals on the sheriff's site.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

31. yikes
    Member Profile

    Waterworld:

    Once again you have helped me a great deal. I have an older daughter who is educated about sexual offenders and has viewed the pics... but would you mind if I shared your comments with parents of the children at the daycare? Some of them are not blog readers and I think your comments can help with those that may be fearful and those of us that want to continue the discussion?

    Flowerpetal, your point is well taken... there is alot that can be gained by people working together for a common decent life and some benefit that could accrue to Mount St Vincent's population by the homeless population... and me too.
    One of the hardest things to teach my teenager is that we are among the very privileged to own a home and afford entertainment and clothes and tho we are careful, we can be at reasonable ease financially... and our world is made up of alot of people that aren't that lucky. We do some volunteering and that helps.

    Anyway, talk about hijacking a post LOL... thank you all for the considered comments.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

32. JoB
    Member Profile

    waterworld...

    "most child sex offenses occur in one of two places: the offender's home or the victim's home."

    thank you for the most important piece of information any parent can know about sex offenders....

    and the one completely overlooked in the obsession about a homeless camp and registered offenders.

    Yikes...

    some of the nicest people you know are child predators...

    and unless you tell your children that..
    they won't know...
    and aren't likely to tell you.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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