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(57 posts)

Happy Kwanza!!!

Started 2 years ago by Diane
Latest reply from JoB

Diane
Member Profile

Today is the first day of Kwanza. Kwanzaa is a unique African American celebration with focus on the traditional African values of family, community responsibility, commerce, and self-improvement.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

what a great focus this year for the week between Christmas and New Year's Eve...

Happy Kwanza!

Posted 2 years ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

Pretty sure it is Kwanzaa unless you are speaking Swahili. The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase matunda ya kwanza, meaning first fruits of the harvest. The choice of Swahili, an East African language, reflects its status as a symbol of Pan-Africanism, especially in the 1960s (when the holiday was created)

In any case... Happy Kwanzaa.

Posted 2 years ago #
Diane
Member Profile

I prefer the Motherland spelling; either way:
~
Seven guiding principles, one for each day of the observance, and is celebrated from December 26th to January 1st.
~
Umoja (oo-MO-jah) Unity stresses the importance of togetherness for the family and the community, which is reflected in the African saying, "I am We," or "I am because We are."
~
Kujichagulia (koo-gee-cha-goo-LEE-yah) Self-Determination requires that we define our common interests and make decisions that are in the best interest of our family and community.
~
Ujima (oo-GEE-mah) Collective Work and Responsibility reminds us of our obligation to the past, present and future, and that we have a role to play in the community, society, and world.
~
Ujamaa (oo-JAH-mah) Cooperative economics emphasizes our collective economic strength and encourages us to meet common needs through mutual support.
~
Nia (NEE-yah) Purpose encourages us to look within ourselves and to set personal goals that are beneficial to the community.
~
Kuumba (koo-OOM-bah) Creativity makes use of our creative energies to build and maintain a strong and vibrant community.
~
Imani (ee-MAH-nee) Faith focuses on honoring the best of our traditions, draws upon the best in ourselves, and helps us strive for a higher level of life for humankind, by affirming our self-worth and confidence in our ability to succeed and triumph in righteous struggle.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Thanks for that, Diane. I never knew that.

Posted 2 years ago #
FrogBaseball
Member Profile

kwanzaa was created by ron karenga who is a convicted felon and black nationalist. you might as well celebrate a holiday created by david duke. a racist lunatic is still a racist lunatic no matter what color.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

FrogBaseball..

i am going to assume that is true since it isn't worth investing time looking up...

Christmas was a pagan holiday adapted by the sweet folks that brought you the inquisition... Christians torturing Christians because they weren't Christian enough... not to mention the racial persecution that accompanied it.

that doesn't mean that my celebration of Christmas is affected by the excesses of the middle age any more than anyone else's celebration of Kwanza need be affected by Ron Karenga..

Even bad people have good ideas...

I like the idea of celebrating we today..

try it..
you might like it.

Posted 2 years ago #
FrogBaseball
Member Profile

it is true about kwanzaa. you can look it up yourself. and yes christmas is the amalgamation of stolen pagan rituals and dates. doesn't mean you should ignore the real history behind either because it is not pleasant. celebrate whatever you want but don't sugarcoat it in the name of diversity and not wanting to offend. call a spade a spade.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

FrogBaseball...

Santa.. that jolly old elf... was invented by Cocacola to sell their product ... but that doesn't make him any less lovable.

the seven guiding principles of Kwanza seem pretty straightforward and worthwhile to me...

We still have time left to work on the WE thing today:)

Posted 2 years ago #
sunshine
Member Profile

So what if Kwanzaa was once a crappy idea that came from a terrible person? Would that define its meaning and value?

The creation of an idea or work of art is such a personal, intimate act. But once it is in existence, the idea or work of art no longer belongs to its creator.

People can experience and appreciate the beauty of Wagner's work, but also disagree with his anti-semitism.

Posted 2 years ago #
WesCAddle
Member Profile

LOL... Santa was NOT invented by CocaCola. Good one.

Next you'll be trying to convince us Seinfeld invented Festivus!

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

WesCAddle

the vision of Santa that we currently have as a jolly old elf in a red suit with white fur was invented by cocacola..
and is about my age even if he was born an adult:)

ok.. so he is a little older than me:(
http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.html

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

Let me approach this from a different angle:

1) I don't care what you want to celebrate. It's one of the liberties we all have being American.

2) The two major holidays this time of year are Christmas and Hanukkah, both RELIGIOUS holidays. Kwanza is accurately reported in Post #1 as "a unique African American celebration with focus on the traditional African values of family, community responsibility, commerce, and self-improvement". That means that Kwanza cannot be readily lumped in as an equivalent to Christmas and Hanukkah since it is not a RELIGIOUS holiday. Instead it celebrates a race and on every website it specifically states it is an "African American" celebration. Plain and simple, that is racist (that's not even considering it's roots and the 1960s movement that started it).

From a religious standpoint 90% of Africa follows either Christianity (they would celebrate Christmas) or Islam (they would follow the 5 Pillars).

From a racial standpoint, are there any other holidays that single out a specific race?

From a heritage standpoint, do we have any other holidays centered around "Insert your heritage here - Americans" (example Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Italian-Americans, Russian-Americans or best of all, American Indians)?

I'm all for celebrating some of the points mentioned in Post #4, but at least make it so that everyone feels like they are part of it and use words that everyone can pronounce).

Oh and thanks for the laugh about Santa Claus being invented by Coke. I guess dreidels were invented by Manischewitz.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

And this link to Thomas Nast on Wiki proves that he drew a pic of the Santa that we know and love 60 years before Coke got their grubby hands on him.

Now that's "nasty"!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast

Posted 2 years ago #
Leroniusmonkfish
Member Profile

And "Boxing Day" was created by "Muhammad Ali". One of the most recognized Canadians of all time!

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

and no one goes out and drinks green beer on Mar. 17, and wear pins that say "Kiss me, I'm Irish"

I don't understand what the beef is with Kwanzaa, or African-Americans celebrating it. Why do we have to be at odds about it? Why does everything have to be so damned PC for some of you? It's not hurting you, it's not infringing on anything you want to do, it has nothing to do with you, if you're not African/American.

And for the record, Mr. Karenga went on to become a college professor at Cal State in Long Beach, CA. If one knew nothing about this man except that and the fact that he was the impetus behind Kwanzaa, would you have a problem? While we're all shouting "racism" behind this holiday, isn't some of your attitudes just a tad bit racist? Especially using the term "calling a spade a spade" in the context of this conversation. Just a poor choice of words?

Kwanzaa has evolved from what it originally was, as has Christmas. So, your point is? What? Does it advocate violence? Does it harm you? Does it denigrate you in some way? I doubt it does any of those things to any of you protesting. Why do you care at all? Why does everything like this have to turn into a problem for some of you, or do some of you just like to have something to "bi*ch" about?

Sigh...

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

the House...

did you not notice that Nast was a political cartoonist and that his santa.. though rotund with a beard.. did not wear a red suit with white trim.. but a red white and blue suit... or that those gathered around him were not children?

he was being nasty.. not delivering the lovable santa that delights our children. Sorry Charlie..

However, i would have been more accurate to say that coca cola popularized our current image of santa...

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/santa/cocacola.asp

without them, who knows which image would have stuck? I myself prefer the more european St Nickolas...

either way.. can you explain to me how Santa Claus or reindeer or those cute christmas bears or ??? ... how any of that is religious? And that's just talking about the popularized mainstream images ...

Labeling Christmas and Hannuka religious pretty much ignores the mad rush to the malls that fuels our retail economy... or any of the cultural festivities that are part of this holiday... including your christmas tree. Even Hannuka has decidedly cultural manifestations within the jewish community...

As JanS pointed out, you have to look no further than green beer to find a holiday that celebrates a single race... and that is just the short list. So, what makes Kwanza racist? the fact that those who celebrate it are primarily black? That would definately be racist.

In case you didn't notice, Diane's post was an invitation for all Americans to share in the cultural traditions of Kwanza... not another marketing plea... Like any good holiday, Kwanza comes with presents too:) nitpicking about things like spelling or whether or not this holiday has religious roots won't get us there...

So in the spirit of today's task:

"Self-Determination requires that we define our common interests and make decisions that are in the best interest of our family and community."

I am going to selectively look at your post for any comments that express common interests... and see if they can provide common goals...

"I'm all for celebrating some of the points mentioned in Post #4"

Success!

and Diane has helpfully provided pronunciation..
""Kujichagulia (koo-gee-cha-goo-LEE-yah) "

While this may seem a little difficult to wrap your tongue around at first, i am sure that words like Mukilteo and Tukwilla were a little difficult as well until you became familiar with them.

I remember moving to Minnesota and finding myself confronted with Mahtamedi :( that some effort.

***

I think Kwanza has something to add to the cultural stew that is America if we give it a cahnce...

after all even TheHouse thinks there might be something to some of the daily goals that are the backbone of Kwanza... That has to be a start.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Kwanzaa isn't racist - or at least it's not intended to be. I think why they mention it being an African American holiday is to explain the fact that not everyone celebrates it (just like Hanukkah is a Jewish holiday.) I remember in my elementary school in the early '90's we were all taught the different days of Kwanzaa, what they mean and how they are celebrated. I never thought of it as an exclusive thing, it's just another way to celebrate what most of us are trying to celebrate this time of year.

For many people this time of year is about being with family and slowing down for at least one day. Call it whatever you want, but do it and respect other people's rights to do it without judgment. There's plenty of judgment to be thrown at Christmas as a religious holiday too, so let's just call it a draw.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i slept through most of this day.
my pups definately think i am not taking my responsibility for community seriously enough
off to trader joes.. our family's common ground:)

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

St. Patricks Days has been whored out like many other holidays (Christmas included) to celebrate something other than what it was originally intended to celebrate. It is supposed to be a celebration of Saint Patrick, not drinking green beer.

Job states: "you have to look no further than green beer to find a holiday that celebrates a single race... and that is just the short list. So, what makes Kwanza racist?"

TheHouse retorts: "Irish isn't a race, it's describing someone from Ireland or of Irish decent. To answer your question about what makes Kwanza racist, all you have to do is ask yourself this:

Would a holiday celebrating Caucasian Americans be considered racist? If your answer if yes, then you've answered your own question. If you answered no, then you're a liar."

You still haven't come up with another holiday that celebrates a race besides Kwanza.

Doesn't it suck when I'm right?

I'm going to start my own new holiday that is a year long celebration called "Dontbeadroidmas". It will celebrate pillars like: Think For Yourself, Don't Be A Victim, You Are Human & Supposed To Be Intelligent and many other pillars of anti-liberal thought.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Kwanzaa isn't a day celebrating African Americans themselves.

Posted 2 years ago #
Jo
Member Profile

Thank you, Diane, for your explanation of Kwanzaa.
I'm willing to bet that most of these 'know-it-all's about every subject imaginable' posters didn't know the first thing about why Kwanzaa is celebrated or what it stands for.
Sorry, folks, if that points the finger at you, but honest to God.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

theHouse...

holidays that celebrate the irish... or the italians... or the english... or the french... or the germans... all celebrate Caucasians.

I am guessing you join in enthusiastically for many of those... most are considered an excuse for a party and are celebrated with generous amounts of alcohol.

I am also guessing that no matter what flavor of ethnicity you celebrate, you weren't born in the home country. For most of us, our connection with that ethnic group is several generations past... yet that doesn't stop me from wearing green.

which is no different than being afro-american.
In most cases, their families have been in the United States just about as long as ours have...

the real difference is that we legislated against their assimilation until a generation or so ago...
in fact, in many places we legislated against their traditions.. and languages... and...

yes, most afro-americans are now christian or muslim.. the saving grace of most religions is that they are equal opportunity when it comes to embracing and assimilating other cultures.... that's a good thing.. or a bad thing.. depending upon your viewpoint.

there are ethnic celebrations of all flavors celebrated in the united states.. including Cinco De Mayo and Chinese new year and ... which seem to pass conveniently under your radar...

why get your panties in a bunch because some of us want to celebrate their African heritage?

You got your invitation to the party...

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

JoB, if you actually understood race you would understand how offensive referring to a black person as "Afro-Amercian" really was.

But you don't.

And you still haven't named another holiday that celebrates another race. There is a difference between celebrations that come from other countries and celebrating a race.

Research the two celebrations you just mentioned. You'll learn alot, including how they don't celebrate a race.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

House you still haven't acknowledged that Kwanzaa doesn't celebrate a race.

I wasn't surprised to see so many replies to this post. And I knew it would probably be a bunch of "white people" feeling alienated. Thanks for keeping it predictable, West Seattle.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

Cait, it does celebrate a race. According to every website devoted to Kwanza it states it is an African American holiday.

And I definitely don't feel alienated. I'll take that as your way of checking out and conceding this debate.

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

Who feels alienated and how do you know what race people are?

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

I see it as a race celebrating Kwanzaa, not the other way around....color me silly, I suppose. Does anyone else see that?

bluebird...many of us have met away from the forums...we know what race, mostly...

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
Member Profile

so a celebration that rejoices a heritage is NOT ok, but one that celebrates a religion is ok?? huh???
.
I see those that celebrate kwanzaa willing to celebrate with all races, but try being an atheist in a christian community... guess which is more accepting?
.
we can all rejoice in each others race... but organized religion will always divide. imo
.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Oh yes. Of course. Me making a point worth its salt is conceding. Sure. Let's go with that. I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that if you felt "allowed" to celebrate Kwanzaa you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

TheHouse..

Your rudeness barely exceeds your cultural ignorance.

You apparently don't understand race as it refers to African Americans. They are referred to simply as African because we chose to wipe out references to the distinct ethnic groups they came from ... calling them African is like calling all whites European...

We .. us white people.. also chose to wipe out as much evidence of their civilization as possible... easier to dismiss them as savages and treat them as a commodity that way.

but those days are behind us.. aren't they?

Most of the holidays we celebrate are of European descent and as such actually do celebrate a "race" of people...

One from which all people of color are pretty much excluded...

and that's called racism..

Kwanza celebrates an African Heritage that many african-americans are just now discovering... sorta like second and third generation irish making the pilgrimage "home"...

i personally am fascinated with my celtic roots... they were some pretty enlightened folks until the religious extremists in Rome wiped out their civilization.. but i digress.

I can't understand why African Americans exploring the diversity of their culture should offend you when drinking green beer apparently doesn't.

You don't want to play... don't play. but you don't have to dis their game just because you don't get it.

jamminj...

i agree that it is very difficult to be an athiest in our culture.. but I am guessing you find religious people far more offensive than they find you unless you try to convert them...

truth is.. no-one really enjoys being converted... whether we are talking religion or culture or sexuality.

Cait...

i will never understand being anything other than the 60 yr old white woman that i am.

However, being that has taught me more about prejudice than i ever wanted to learn.

****

Unfortunately this topic has been more divisive than inclusive today... a sad comment on a day dedicated to the discovery of community.

I guess there is some hope in the fact that we are talking... even if there doesn't seem to be much listening going on.

perhaps tomorrow will be better.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

I made a handy chart for those who don't want to wade through all the last 30-some posts.

http://alturl.com/bvbj *

*Not actual proportions due to text space.

Posted 2 years ago #
austin
Member Profile

LOL yes

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

JoB, you stated "Afro American", that is offensive. "African American" is not.

Cait, I know the admins of this site are just waiting for me to verbally abuse you but I won't. We'll just see if the same rules apply to you and your crew that apply to me. Feel free to post your e-mail address so that I can tell you how alienated I am and you can tell me how you'll help me.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Please refer to graph. Or think of a civil way to discuss things. My email inbox is clogged with enough garbage. I challenge you to have this conversation without resorting to things that will get you kicked off the blog. And if you get booted for anything else, I'll cry foul too. Go ahead...

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

Cait, are you white? Why is this so important to you if you are? Why are you fighting for a holiday that did not originate in nor is celebrated in Africa? Is based on practices from Eastern Africa, when slaves and their descendants (culture, heritage, traditions) are from Western Africa? Was founded by a current Black Nationalist (against multiculturalism), who intended for it to be separatist holiday and incidentally was convicted of torturing black women.

Is only celebrated by 13% of the black population in America to begin with, and apparently a portion of those actually have no idea about the origins or purpose. They're just taught it's their ethnic history. I would hope that those who do research the truth, dismiss it for the fraud it is.

Just because Hallmark created a card doesn't make it legitimate.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

oh, please. The man was convicted and did his time. He has 2 Ph. D's, and has gone on to lead an exemplary life as a college professor. I'm not saying that I agree with what he did to put him into prison. But are none of us allowed to learn from our mistakes when we were younger? Are you saying that no one can ever be rehabilitated, and that their life should be judged by the past? Or is that something reserved for those special people who don't totally agree with what you think is correct?

Bluebird...are you white? Why do you care so much about this particular celebration? Why are you so against what it stands for? Can black people in this country only have what you deem is PC ? If it wasn't passed down from generation to generation, it's a fraud? really? You're quite sure slaves only came from West Africa?

http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora.html

I'm asking again...is anything at all from the celebration of Kwanzaa hurting you? harmful to you? denigrating to you in any way? are we all just on here arguing for the sake of arguing? (<pout> you're wrong, I'm right, and I will never give in - stamping foot) It sure does seem that way. If that's not true, if there is a cogent reason for wanting Kwanzaa to disappear, I wish you'd tell me.

Do any of you recognize the term "Bon Odori"? It's a celebration dance...the end of the "Obon" or "Bon" festival, which in the Japanese people's culture is a celebration of their ancestry. We have a big Bon Odori celebration here in Seattle every summer...with carnival atmosphere, outdoor festival, other more "social" things. It's a celebration that has evolved from it's original meaning, which was to celebrate and pay respect to those in the family who have died before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Festival

Does anyone have a beef with that? No? can you please explain why or why not? Just askin'. A celebration of things has to start somewhere. Obon just happened to start a long time ago...Kwanzaa more recently...so what. I know that some of you will argue that they're different. Please tell me why you think that...again, cogent reasoning.

It's cold, it's late, y'all have a great week...looking forward to some of your answers here. Discussions can be had without bashing...for some reason, it's difficult on here. Sigh.

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

I think you're arguing, and your remarks are a little too angry and defensive for me to have a discussion. Nite all. Happy holidays.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

smiling here....angry and defensive? I only asked what you asked of Cait. Sorry you feel that way because I would like to hear what you have to say. But...that's a good copout...thanks :)

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

TheHouse...

I suspect African Americans don't give a s..t what i call them as long as i treat them as human beings with a right to create whatever kind of cultural celebration they choose.

Language isn't the point.. respect is.

***

moving on.. thanks to Diane...

Ujima (oo-GEE-mah) Collective Work and Responsibility reminds us of our obligation to the past, present and future, and that we have a role to play in the community, society, and world.

I really get the need for this. We as a society are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again unless we understand what went wrong and take responsibility for changing it.

And this has nothing to do with socialism or wiping society's arse... it means taking personal responsibility for respecting those around you and treating them as you would want to be treated..

That's basic Christian stuff for me... but it doesn't have to come from religion.

You can't understand who you are unless you understand where you came from... and it is easier to comprehend the dignity of other people if you make an attempt to understand where they came from.

One of the benefits of the women's movement is that there is now an abundance of biographical information that includes letters from women who struggled with the same issues that confront me today.. even though they lived in another century. The same thing is occurring in black literature... and in english translations of nearly every cultural tradition existing in these united states. If you can't listen, you can read.

The longer i live, the more i realize that respecting others begins with respecting yourself.. and personal respect is based on taking responsibility for the way you interact with your community.

Some of you will think that funny coming from a curmudgeon like me.. but i care deeply about my community and have great respect for those who care enough to make a difference.. even when i don't agree with their methods.

***

Diane...

I want to thank you for choosing to care enough about us to educate... and for starting this discussion... hopefully something of value will come from it.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

BTW..

this whole race thing is vastly over-rated...

even wikipedia states that their post may be too long to read and navigate comfortably :)

but it boils down to this.. definitions of race vary with time and culture and are not substantiated by DNA evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)

I consider myself very lucky to have been born white in a society that values light skin... the color of your skin does determine advantages.

i would have had even more advantages if i had been born male ... but i doubt i would have learned as much ;->

Advantage increases your financial and social opportunities, but narrows your experience.

Our national Xenophobia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia
is well on it's way to one of those demographic adjustments that will ultimately redefine race...

probably not in my lifetime.. but nevertheless.. the latino population in this country will soon exceed those who classify themselves as white.

The other day i listened to an NPR program based on the results of a work ethic study... showing latinos have a greater work ethic than whites :)

the times they are a changing...

i'm thinking this community idea.. where one is valued on their contributions instead of their color.. will be looking better to more people soon:)

Posted 2 years ago #
Duckitude
Member Profile

Ummm... amazing how Diane's simple celebratory post went down this long and winding road. Also, rather interesting (scratches beard... aha...)

I have not much to add, but I will say this, at the very minimum, Kwanzaa stands for the quest for equality. Equality, although maybe not as racially divisive as it used to be, is still a very laudable goal. If you think we live in a democracy, well, think again. It's more or less a corporate oligarchy at this point in history. Any celebration that has a component of bringing more power to "the people" is fine with me.

For my ducky take on Kwanzaa, visit http://www.duckiesrule.com/home.htm

Happy New Year!

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

Not everyone uses the forums just to incessantly advertise their calendars. They are generally a place for discussion, this being one of the more interesting and civil.

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

Bluebird, not that I think my race has anything to do with the discussion at hand but refer to the graph for the answer to all your questions.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

bluebird..

psst..
there is other pretty interesting content on duckitudes website...

but don't tell anyone..
they might miss the calendars.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
Member Profile

Interesting how a "personal attack" from Cait on me has been allowed to stay up on this site for 18 hours (post #32) and I even reported it (the first time ever).

And there aren't any double standards on this site? Ha!

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

You might have to be a little more specific about that "personal attack". I don't see it. We've both kept it real civil thus far. I'm proud of us, TheHouse!

Is your issue with the fact that in my opinion you are feeling alienated. It is my opinion that you sound that way. And sorry I used the "b word" as a verb where I could have used the word "complain" but toe-may-to, to-mah-toe. I certainly am not calling YOU a "b-word."

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
Member Profile

The chart is ridiculous and explains nothing other than to justify one person's immature opinion of another.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

wow, bluebird, you just don't like much of anyone on here, do you? Humor is a good thing, and I saw the chart as humor. But what do I know. My opinion doesn't really count for much, now, does it?

Sigh

Posted 2 years ago #
Trisket
Member Profile

Cait - your little chart is flawed. Perhaps if you go back and study it you may find the error.
Also, in the future please show your work.

oh, and I agree with bluebird.. your chart is ridiculous.

Posted 2 years ago #

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