West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Politics

(52 posts)

Guns and Justice...Murder by Justice?

Started 8 months ago by kootchman
Latest reply from kootchman

kootchman
Member Profile

remember the wacko Harold Koh..? The Obama handmaiden that would subject us to international law? What will he do now? Thanks in no part to "FaUX" news... it finally starts to unravel... "Gun Walk" or Fast and Furious... three e-mails to White House Staffers have been discovered... all directed to the National Security..detailing the ATF gun running scheme..to Mexico. What will he do when Mexico takes Holder to the Internationa Court for gun running? The three Justice /ATF officials.. two transferred to the mother ship, WA DC Hqtrs, one fired... wow..now after testfifying to Congress (under oath) he knew nothing... former director Melson now "remembers" seeing video of the sales.and to quot :felt sick to his stomach".now that he remembers it afterall....and the new Acting director? Holder won't submit an appointment for Director because he is dodging the required Congressional hearings. It now seems it was thousands of weapons ATF and Justice shipped into Mexico... not a few hundred. We now know three White House staffers, two acting ATF directors, knew about it. One confirmed dead agent, one suspected... and now we know why Holder released the suspects caught at the scene of the death of Agent Brian Terry..imagine a defense that he was acting as an agent of the US Justice Department... which in fact he was....one straw purchaser ALONE bought 780 guns..the gun dealer who called ATF FOUR times..was told to sell them, ATF approved the sale. How many hundreds of Mexican police, army, and civilians were killed? Time for congress to appoint a special prosecutor for Messrs Holder and Obama.... when will they learn..? The cover-up and lying to Congress aways makes it worse...even in this horrid case. Watchcha think JanS...? FAUX news covered it, has covered it.. when the lame stream media gave this administration a free pass. Christ.. Watergate was a burglery... this is aiding and abetting murder of US Agents and International police forces... Good work Fox news! And you guys want me to register MY firearms?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

And what happend to the man of courage... the one of honor, that blew the whistle? Why of course... fired! Is there any sphere of government this administration is competent in? Congressman Issa and Grassley should get the Medal of Freedom... more to come I am sure.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-agent-only-way-to-track-guns-would-be-with-crime-scenes-and-dead-bodies

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

from the NYT..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/us/31guns.html

so, are you saying that there's proof that Pres. Obama is the one who was in charge of Op. Fast and Furious? That there's proof? Or...is this the "trickle up" theory? I'm just asking. I had heard about this earlier this year.nd the guy who got fired said that this didn't come from the White HOuse. Do any of us really know? Nope.

Watergate came directly from Nixon. There was proof of that. Show me where this gun thingy came directly from Obama...when it appears that it came from the agency itself. I'm not saying you're right, I'm not saying you're wrong...just asking :)

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

When was this program conceived?
and who appointed the idiots who conceived it?

to paraphrase the whistleblower ...
any green recruit fresh out of the agency school knew this was a bad idea...

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

And you guys want me to register MY firearms?

Hell, yes, kootchman!
I still want you to register your firearms.

I don't want either you OR the government selling guns to bad guys.

Posted 8 months ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

The desperation of the R*'s is showing -- in this thread and others. What's going to happen if people decide to notice who's responsible for flat economy and job growth: The "Starve government in the bathtub crew." I'm old enough to remember when they were the right wing fringes; now they're the front runners.

Listening to Ron Paul on NPR explaining why it was up to the people of New Hampshire and Vermont to pay for their own hurricane relief was (surreal) (frightening) nope -- just more of the same.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

from today's NYT..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/03/us/03guns.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha24

but..Darrel Issa...wow, motive? He's a pretty despicable man, in my book, and I'm not sure I trust where his looking into things is going. Opinion only here, but I'm thinking that he would like nothing better than to link Obama directly to this. Witch hunt? not? guess we'll see.

Kman...do you object to registering and licensing your pets?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Well, let's see ho plausible this is... TWO directors of ATF run guns into Mexico. They report directly to Eric Holder. They are one step removed. This is not a "little" rogue basement operation. This a full blown weapons trafficking operation. We flood Mexico with assault weapons, full blown, military grade automatic weapons. Mexico complains there society is being overwhelmed, over 30,000 dead. "We" plant stories in the press about how terrible the gun lobby is. ATF launches a large PR campaign that this is the consequence of loose Texas gun laws. Now, we are supposed to believe Holder and Obama were not in the loop? If they weren;t..they are incompetent and have no ability to control or manage their vast bureaucratic empires..which they seek to make even larger. We didn;t have direct evidence of Nixon involvement in Watergate either....... until Congress appointed a Special Prosecutor. ... this has risen to that level and beyond. No wonder the Mexican President is furious...while he attends funerals of dead police and military enforcement officers...we don't even tell them of our involvement. Of course, the streams of terrorized refugees .... escaping the horrors are future Democrat voters... nice diversion... you want to talk about Irene and the notion that insurance verses government bailouts is preferable.... but I point to gun crimes and murder..and the "top" law enforcement official of this country is eyeball deep in gun running. Ya think Obama is really THAT disassociated from his appointee? His own White House staff doesn't brief him..the same security staff that used to give him daily briefings? This, the hands on Prez that knows every detail of border enforcement to ignore. ATF throws their own under the bus, covers up the death of their own agent and former Marine for political cover? Amazing. Special Prosecutor time. Mexico should take us to the International Court..for gross border violations and accessory to systematic murder. Very mum the President has been... verrrry mum. Yea.. I absolutely think Holder and Obama knew about it..and both of them are busy as hell hiding the evidence. Our Justice Department is up arming the most vicious, murderous, drug cartels on this planet...and Democrats want to pretend it didn't happen or talk about Ron Paul and Hurricane Irene insurance vs FEMA funding?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

The first to go down ... ( remember it took a prison sentence to get Colson, Howard Dean, et to crack and give up Nixon) should be Melson for lying under oath to Congress. That 20 year hitch should have him singing like a canary. Shuffling subordinates around and loyalists resigning...where will they reappear? ACORN? News Commenter Politico? MOVEON.org, lobbyist?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

JanS... my pets are not a constitutional right... my guns are. The pet thing is an revenue issue for local governments. Although, I bet ATF is sorry as hell now they had to register their straw purchases! Now you know...any citizenry that is less well armed than its government is at risk. As usual... the law abiding gun owners are not implicated in this sordid affair.. a corrupt government is.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

I suppose that I will always be at risk, then, as I won't be owning a gun any time soon.

The rest is conjecture on your part. No matter what you surmise, it's still conjecture. People to the right of center want to make Pres. Obama (who I don't always agree with) into some sort of ogre, some malevolent being. I don't see it that way. Call me naive if you wish. I don't make judgement calls, I hope, on pure conjecture. And I don't pass it on as fact, if I do.

Posted 8 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

I absolutely think Holder and Obama knew about it..and both of them are busy as hell hiding the evidence. Our Justice Department is up arming the most vicious, murderous, drug cartels on this planet...and Democrats want to pretend it didn't happen

OK, if you can get the proof, more power to you. Go kick some ass.

I don't think it likely that Obama was in on this, but I'm willing to entertain any hard evidence you can bring to the table. Why not?

Special Prosecutor? –Well, if you must. Just please don't waste tens of millions of dollars and years of our time if all he's gonna bring back is a wet cigar, 'kay? Cuz we've already been there.

Also, kootchman, it kinda sounds like you're saying that assault weapons are bad or something. But that can't be right, can it? I mean, you're not really suggesting that anybody be banned from owning an assault weapon or from giving it to whoever they want (even Mexicans), are you? Because that would be downright un-Constitutional.

Seriously, though, nothing in this thread convinces me that Americans should be allowed to secretly stockpile guns.

And FWIW, I don't trust YOU or ATF or ANYBODY with assault weapons!

Now run along and play . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=38pj4mWDrsA

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Project Gun Runner started in Laredo Texas in 2005.
It got fast and furious in 2009 in Arizona...

Does it surprise anyone that the local ATF in Arizona chose to run a program that violated ATF rules and procedures?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

Obama's biggest problem since he took office is that in an effort to appear non-partisan.. he didn't clean house of the last administration's appointees.

perhaps this incident will finally convince him of the error of his ways.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Well, we could avoid appointing a special Prosecutor... novel idea...just have Dept of Justice tell the truth? There is no "local" ATF... it's a federal agency. Local is Sheriff, Town of ____ police department.. etc. Obama didn't try to appear non-partisan...he rammed all of his agenda he could in the first 24 months..and as is wont to happen in this USA.. we prefer gridlock to marching in lock step over the cliff. So if this all "Bush did it" again... why is Holder being such an obstructionist? Given the lack of administration candor... I am willing to spend a few million to see just how much culpability we share as a nation to the murderous rampage south of the border. BTY... all these "appointees"? they are career civil servants.. only Holder is an appointee. Imperial DC .... above the law? They would like to think so. Well Jan... you are right... but ist's quacking, waddling, and peddling water... sure looks like a duck to me. Watergate was conjecture too... until there was evidence. Maybe he will see the error of his ways....can't wait to read the book "No Regrets"...

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

DBP... you are being silly ... not even disingenuous. We knowingly sold weaponry to drug cartels. We are not talking about law abiding US citizens. Can ya see the "slight" difference here? They are bad guys. They use guns in the commission of a vast myriad of felonies and murder. Law abiding citizens use guns for recreation, sport, self defense. Yea.. I am perfectly content with that distinction. Charlobob.. you must indeed be old enough.. because I can't remember a time in this countrys' history when their was never a resistance to overreaching government. By all the polls I see... I think the Republicans are hardly desperate. The last election was decisive... and the message clear.. of course we won't swing or persuade the metro liberal cities...they have been written off as largely irrelevant. So if Holder did know about it... should he be fired?

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootchman..

there is a local office of the ATF agency in Arizona..
just like there is a local FBI office...
and local offices often run their own programs independent of other offices.

if this is a rogue operation,
it won't be the first
and is unlikely to be the last...
regardless of who is President.

The one thing we can agree on is that it was an ill conceived... though possibly effective... program

don't you think it might be good to let the dust settle enough to find out before laying blame on the first guy that comes to your mind?

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

so Holder should tell the truth according to what you believe? What if he already has...do you even consider that for a moment? Geez, who died and made you the source of all information? Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. And heaven forbid you would place the blame for the original operation on anyone other than Obama...you, and so many others, are just gunning for him so much, you will believe every accusation about him that comes down the pike. I agree with Job on this one...let the dust settle before you hang the guys.

One of my favorite quotes from the past few weeks..."if Obama said that he detested tomatoes, the right would call it a socialist plot".

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

We have one lie on record.... from one ATF director...we have three leaked e-mails to his national security advisor, and documented reprisals against field agents who blew the whistle.. everything is conjecture...at this point. Every scandal starts with a stink.... and this one is getting bigger by the day. Quite the opposite... I want more dust... lots of it. The agent was killed on his watch..by arms supplied by his Justice department.. and thousands were sent into Mexico and some found at crime scenes in California. See the RR tapes on the Democratic led Tower Report... (Edmund Muskie, John Tower, Brend Scowcraft) .. it took three months to get the answers... and the report. I realize the only successful outcome of many liberals would have been crucifixion on the Capital Mall...but he took the shots, apologized to the American people...and 17 indictments of his administration were initiated.. Of course if there is no outcry and some dust kicking there will be no investigations... aren't ya a little bit curious?

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch..

and in the meantime.. republicans in Arizona hold a raffle for a handgun in Representative Gifford's district.

where is your indignation?

in Texas Rick Perry refuses to allow a stay of execution for the judicial process for death row inmates who have forensic evidence of their innocence or who were guilty of murdering while black...

where is your indignation?

Republican attorney generals in several states have purged valid voters from voter rolls because they decided it is possible that they could have been committing voter fraud because their name resembles that of a convicted felon or because they are a student..

where is your indignation?

the list goes on..
but you are only outraged by the innuendos floated against President Obama.

In the Safeway checkout line yesterday, i was treated to the headlines from some of Rupert Murdoch's scandal sheets.

did you know that only a lone sheriff somewhere in America has the courage to investigate Obama's fraudulent birth certificate?

Or that he wasn't really on vacation but was checked into rehab?

Now there are a couple of stories you should follow up immediately. Where there is smoke there is certainly fire... even if Murdoch creates the smoke.

What part of the fact that President Obama is the sitting President of your nation and should be accorded minimal respect do you not get?

Republicans directed the same kind of smear machine at President Clinton.

All that got us was a President whose energy had to be focused on his political rivals instead of security threats like AlQueda...

that didn't work out so well for us.

Perhaps it's time to rethink that strategy ... for the good of the nation and all of that?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

While I don't think it was very astute... I have no outrage with a gun raffle. As long as it goes into a law abiding, US citizen. Ummm I would read that headline...and laugh. Dumbasses would come to mind if someone actually bought the rag.. or gave it credibility. I try to cite and read credible sources, on both sides of the spectrum.. Beck and Maddox? Same cloth, same purpose... But, if the story is as you report it about some Sheriff somewhere is looking for a false birth certificate.. to you that rises to the same level of concern as gun running by our Justice Department? .. call the Sheriff a buffoon...doing buffoonish things. I would agree however.. 38,000 dead Mexican nationals, 2 dead federal agents, 7 confiscated weapons taken from the scene of felonies in California..and at least 1500 illegal assault weapons and semi-automatics..put in the hands of drug cartels?That action puts my fellow citizens in mortal peril. .you eqaute the two as equivalent outrages? I had one stint in my life where I did have to render absolute fealty to the President. Not now. The office is a vetting process.. I voted for him. I was disgusted with Bush and McCain was no tower of inspiration. Now that I have seen him in action for three years... nope.. I don't respect him or his performance. Nor, am I obliged to. Nor should I. You know we can all back in history... remember the Clinton half assed missle strikes and his refusal to green light killing OSAMA?Talk about political supremacy over national security!! Everyone in Intelligence and even the Saudis were screaming kill him! That was decades ago..while historians, pundits, authors may dissect it for posterity, ... it has long passed, and 9-11 happened....other than the re authorization of executive targeted killings (which by the way Obama opposed and then re-signed) I see no great use to dwell on it.... In the here and NOW.... with THIS President and his cabinet appointees... he has been the most destructive president in this country's history (that I have witnessed) ... I am supposed to "respect" that cause he sits in a chair in an oval office? Sorry... I don't go to slaughter that easily. The man is incapable of entertaining the notion that he needs help and is in way over his head. He isn't strong enough to abandon idealogical cronyism. The suit doesn't fit.

Posted 8 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

"and his refusal to green light killing Obama?" freudian slip there, Kman? I believe you meant Osama?

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Thank-you for the edit opportunity... I apologize...it was a mistake... I hope JoB didn't see it.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

JoB.... this being a "local" office affair of ATF... we have proof it wasn't... we have sworn testimony of field agents who went up the chain of command... we have documents. A boatswains mate who scratches the liberty boat on the dock and doesn't tell his Chief...that's a local thing... misplacing an aircraft carrier isn't.... this ATF affair is more like the latter than the former. We are talking enough weaponry to outfit a full Regimental combat team.

Posted 8 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Kootch...

I am just saying that before you get all outraged perhaps you should do a little due diligence and ask yourself who is actually responsible.

In this case, it is far too early to say that Obama is responsible for anything other than sitting in the Presidential hot seat.

If he or his administration are responsible for this abuse of power then I am all for handing them their heads.

I would already like to hand them their heads right now for abuses of power initiated by the last administration and continued with full knowledge by this one...

I am in a agreement that Obama has not fulfilled his campaign promises.. though i doubt that you and i are concerned about the same issues.

I don't believe this President has gone too far on social programs. I believe he hasn't done enough and in the end... if anything is his undoing... that will be it.

this notion that we should give corporations more tax breaks and de-regulate them so they can in turn do the right thing by the American people is an absurd joke.

if they were going to do so, they would have done so by now. Instead, we have witnessed the largest transference of economic wealth from the middle class taxpayer... who did invest in our economy... to the upper class taxpayer and corporations... who sit on their money while America suffers.

Explain to me how more of that is good for the American people?

It's all well and good to through accusations and slogans around Kootch... but when the rubber hits the road actions speak far louder than words... and the actions of the opposition tell me that Obama is still the best alternative.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Well there ya go... that is what elections are for. Now, normally, I don't speculate... but I think when Crockfords handicaps this election and sets the house odds.... I am in for a couple of grand...though I think the odds are going a different direction than you would prefer. Side bet? As to who is responsible? He is. It's his team. He may not be culpable... what's the old expression.. you can delegate authority, but never responsibility. Of course liberals are trying to cover his ass... just like conservatives tried to cover RR for gun running to the Contras.... but that is what outrage is for. Like I said in previous posts... anger brings em' to the voting booth... I am shilling for my party. Libertarian.... no mas!!!!! Too much government, too much government/industry collusion ... they are genderless whores and pimps... for each other.

Posted 8 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

As predicted... the gun running scheme IS getting more light of day...now I saw the ISSA question and the HOLDER answer... that is lying under oath to Congress. Indict him for perjury.

Posted 7 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch...

you hold too many grudges for me tonight...

Posted 7 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Just an update ma'am....

Do you remember YOUR post...

"If he or his administration are responsible for this abuse of power then I am all for handing them their heads."

Posted 7 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

the updates are getting serious.. JoB still going to call this a little rogue operaton out of a remote, local ATF office? That WAS your position. Still not ready to call this one a stink bomb?

Posted 7 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

When asked by Congress, Napalitano, head of Homeland Security...stated that after two Federal Agents" "her" agents, were shot dead with Fast and Furious guns... she had not been briefed in the three months after. Not one discussion with anyone? Sure like this "open and transparant" government we were going to get? Homeland Security is now nothing but a political spin machine. It's an extension of the "Party"... very commissar like

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

May not like FOX News.... but without thhem.. it would never have seen the light of day. Wonder what the Mexican and Federal police think about the DEA, Border Patrol, FBI, all involved in sending all those heavy weapons and assaut weapons to the drug cartels who are slaughtering in the streets of Laredo and all border cities by the tens of thousands. If this was a conservative president it would lead the news nightly for months.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i thought this horse was dead

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

You would hope so.. but no, the scandal is getting much larger. But you are probably overwhelmed, so many crony crony capitalism stories and revelations of secrecy, fraud, are seeping out from under the closed doors... it overwhelms. There are two murders to account for, both committed with DOJ complicity and cover-up. Fervent wishing it would go away isn't going to happen. Jesus...is Napolitano a 4 packa day smoker with a rye whiskey back after each puff? She sounds like Mr. Ed.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Wonder what the Mexican and Federal police think about the DEA, Border Patrol, FBI, all involved in sending all those heavy weapons and assaut weapons to the drug cartels who are slaughtering in the streets of Laredo and all border cities by the tens of thousands.

Go kootchman!

Wahoooooo!!

Dude! Seriously! This is the most powerful argument you've ever made. Let's band together to bring back the assault weapons ban that expired a couple of years ago!

What say?

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

No way... not ever. The laws were clear .. you don't sell firearms to criminals... period. We went out of our way to find the drug cartel members and sell to them. Can't see the difference? Legal, law abiding American .. yes. Murderous drug cartels no. Yea, well it was too nuanced for Eric Holder too

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Oh, sorry, kootch. I thought you were implying that assault weapons were somehow part of the problem here. Now I see that the assault weapons thing is really just a minor detail.

Yeah, I can see that. The problem isn't that assault weapons are involved per se; it's that they're being used so . . . irresponsibly. These drug cartels have no intention of using the weapons for their intended purpose, which is . . . um . . . hunting n'shit.

Personally, I find deer hunting with an AK-47 to be highly rewarding. Fun for the whole family. It's a timesaver, too. (Clears the undergrowth AND tenderizes the meat.) I'm sure our Founding Fathers would have approved of this wholesome activity. As I see it, emptying a clip into the air on the 4th is really just another form of free speech.

—So why do these stupid drug cartels and rogue government agencies have to go and ruin things for the rest of us? Oh, it makes me mad.

It's just like nuclear weapons. Everything was fine until the dumbass North Koreans horned in.

Anyway, let's think of pleasanter things.

Say, kootch! Have you ever been on a big-game hunt with nuke-tipped bunker busters? It's awesome. Just awesome! C'mon, let's go sometime, just you and me.

We'll light up the savanna.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Assault weapons are legal ... how about DOJ enforcing the laws on the books? Now that would be a shocker... instead of breaking them! I don't use automatic weapons for deer hunting... and I don't pretend that is the reason I own them. The constitution says nary a thing about having a reason to bear arms other than having one when ya go to the village green and muster into a militia in times of national crisis. Lots of folks shoot for recreation. How does one equate sport shooting with selling arms to drug cartels? You gotta reach hard and stretch for that one.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

My point is that assault weapons are inherently dangerous and that there's no good reason for anyone to have them, other than servicemembers in uniform.

You should not have them.
DOJ should not have them.
Drug cartels should not have them.

For the record, sir, I DO draw distinctions between the parties above. I understand that, unlike DOJ and the drug cartels, you, kootchman, have committed no crime. I further accept your statement that your intention so far as these weapons are concerned is only to recreate and/or defend yourself with them.

I acknowledge all that. Yet still do I maintain that the real harm that comes from having assault weapons in our society outweighs any potential benefits and that your point about DOJ's misdeeds — which you are completely justified in making — is a better argument for my side than anything I could have come up with on my own.

I'm not saying you're a bad person in any way, kootch. In fact I like you and agree with you in many things. I strongly disagree with you on this assault weapons thing, and probably always will.

But please, by all means . . . go right ahead with your complaint about DOJ and assault weapons and drug cartels.

Keep making my case for me.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

I am looking as we speak at three weapons. I can look at them for another week or two. But far as I can tell, they are not dangerous. Not one bit. The are inanimate, made of inorganics, and are capable of nothing other than hanging there. Dangerous as a beach rock. Now you could make the argument that there are dangerous people and police out there who can become dangerous and use the assault weapon as their instrument of danger. But gun laws already cover those bases. Makes as much sense to ban kitchen knives, (see Everett) ropes, lye, baseball bats, or any other conceivable inanimate object. I will never consent to being less armed than the police forces that surround us.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

I am looking as we speak at three weapons. I can look at them for another week or two. But far as I can tell, they are not dangerous. Not one bit. The are inanimate, made of inorganics, and are capable of nothing other than hanging there. Dangerous as a beach rock. Now you could make the argument that there are dangerous people and police out there who can become dangerous and use the assault weapon as their instrument of danger. But gun laws already cover those bases. Makes as much sense to ban kitchen knives, garden tools, (see Everett) ropes, lye, baseball bats, or any other conceivable inanimate object. I believe sir, with due respect, it is illusory to ban assault weapons and then pretend we are safer.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Makes as much sense [to ban assault weapons as] to ban kitchen knives, garden tools, ropes, lye, baseball bats, or any other conceivable inanimate object.

–kootchman
from "The Big Book of kootchman's Wisdom," Vol 1.

News Item:

A major escalation in violence on Highland Park streets was averted today when police uncovered a huge cache of garden tools, lye, ropes, and other inanimate objects in the toolshed of local homeowner David Preston.

Many of the tools were covered in a layer of dirty rust, and could, if stepped on, have caused an outbreak of the deadly tetanus virus.

When questioned by authorities as to why he possessed so many unused work tools, Mr. Preston said: "Who you callin' a inanimate object, suckas?"

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

makes as much sense

Posted 6 months ago #
casaboba
Member Profile

Link Below to Gallup Poll Results released Oct. 26, 2011 on the subject of banning firearms in USA. Apologies if you have seen this already and/or it makes you sad.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/Record-Low-Favor-Handgun-Ban.aspx

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Thanks, casaboba. Let's annoy kootchman by "repurposing" this thread as a dialogue on guns.

You know, kootchman wants to eat his cake and have it too. He wants to go: Look how bad Obama/DOJ are, giving assault weapons to drug dealers!

But then, when I try to agree with him by saying: You're right, kootch. If DOJ did that, it's bad, because those weapons are really dangerous! —he's all like: Oh, no! That's not what I meant at all. The WEAPONS aren't bad; just Obama and DOJ are.

And I'm like: Whuhhh!?

You know what's going on with pro-assault weapon arguments, right? The NRA and other gun-rights supporters are using the classic bogeyman of "incrementalism" – just like opponents of the income tax initiative (I-1098) did.

The gun people are claiming that if we take away their AK-47s, next thing you know, we'll be outlawing squirt guns. They're deliberately blurring the distinction between various kinds of weapons, various proposals to restrict guns, and different levels of risk.

Unfortunately, these tactics are working, and the poll numbers you cite above reflect that. Many Americans are convinced that any kind of gun ban or restriction – no matter how limited – equates to a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lumping assault weapons bans and gun registration laws together in their mind with a total ban on guns, they say: "No. I'm against that. I'm against the government taking away our guns."

The NRA will then point to these polls and say: "See? Americans are against gun control."

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

You distort, intentionally so, and not very skillfully at that. Gun are not inherently good, or bad. Seems it is too hard to be discerning enough to make a distinction between selling weapons to drug cartels engaged in wholesale slaughter and law abiding citizens with constitutional rights to bear arms, who use guns for recreational purposes.

"But then, when I try to agree with him by saying: You're right, kootch. If DOJ did that, it's bad, because those weapons are really dangerous! —he's all like: Oh, no! That's not what I meant at all. The WEAPONS aren't bad; just Obama and DOJ are"

You neglected to "repurpose" your full statement ALL assault weapons should be banned. Which ain't gonna happen, now or ever. My NRA dues will assure that. The weapons are not bad...selling them to bad people is bad... too hard a distinction for you?

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

what gets me is how you distort the second amendment. You can honestly say with a straight face that the people who wrote that honestly did it so you can have guns, assault weapons for recreational purposes? Talk about distorting facts..

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

I actually never said that assault weapons are inherently "bad." Or if I did, I didn't mean to.

But they are inherently DANGEROUS. Certainly assault weapons are more dangerous than kitchen knives, garden tools, and other "inanimate objects." They're even more dangerous — much more dangerous — than automatic pistols.

That much should be obvious to all, but just in case it's not, I'll give you a couple of reasons:

1) With an assault rifle, you can murder a few dozen people without even breaking a sweat. With an assault rifle, you can kill say, a whole classroom full of high-school kids, or a post office lobby full of customers. And all in just a couple of minutes — before anyone can even get the cops on the line.

Seriously, kootch. Can someone kill that many people that quickly with a garden hoe? Or even a pistol? Come on, dude!

2) In addition to their high rate of fire, assault weapons are extremely POWERFUL. They can fire high-velocity, body armor-piercing rounds that can easily overpower conventional police-issue pistols. This is why they are the weapon of choice for professional kidnappers and bank robbers from here to Tijuana.

Can you smack down a squad of cops with a kitchen knife, kootch? Ha. I'd like to see someone try. No wait! Ever watch "COPS!"

**************************************************************************************

I'll grant your point that volition is an issue here. It's obviously true that an assault weapon has to fall into the hands of an evil or mentally unstable person before it can do all the damage I've described.

But it's not like that never happens now, is it?

And when it DOES happen, how much MORE death and destruction can that evil/unstable person cause when he has an assault weapon in hand versus when he has a garden hoe? Think about it.

Again, when it comes down to a question of comparing the benefit society derives from allowing you and a few hard-core gun enthusiasts to possess assault weapons versus the actual harm caused by those weapons, then I have to say: No. It's not worth it. It's just not worth it.

I dunno . . . am I really distorting things here? I don't think so. But if I am, I hope some other folks will chime in here and set me straight.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Yea and some old couple gets assaulted with a crossbow and an ax.
It takes a willful action to make an assault rifle dangerous. I have one sitting here in plain view. Had it for over 30 years. I t has caused as much damage as my lunch box. As to the purpose of the constitution, "shall not be abridged" seems pretty clear to me. You can do all those "imagined" horrors with pistols, also armor piercing and HV.. in fact the largest mass murders were done as acts of arson..guess we should ban gasoline? matches? You know how the system works...if you want to abridge the freedom, amend the constitution. Very few murders in the USA are done by assault rifles. As to cops.. well, I believe in citizen parity

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

It's interesting, kootch. Besides me (and JanS and maybe casaboba) nobody has stepped forward to say that they're actually against assault weapons.

I take that to mean that people here on the Blog are either in favor of assault weapons or that they just don't care. If that's the case, I guess you and the NRA win again . . .

Je concède le terrain pour vous.

Here's my "parting shot" so to speak . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm1PEY8F4xE

This situation would not have happened had it not been for our permissive attitude toward these weapons.

Posted 6 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.

All contents copyright 2012, A Drink of Water and a Story Interactive. Here's how to contact us.
No photo reuse without permission.
Entries and comments feeds. ^Top^