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God is imaginary

Started 1 year ago by eyeswideopen
Latest reply from JoB

eyeswideopen
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I have a good friend who is a devote Catholic, and I am Atheist.
He is so fluent in expressing his beliefs, while I find it difficult to articulate my reasons for being Atheist to him.
I came across a website that explains my feelings about all religion perfectly. I think it is a great resource for everyone to start thinking and speaking rationally about religion.

http://www.godisimaginary.com

Posted 1 year ago #
Jiggers
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I'm Agnostic and don't like to be proselytized. Keep it in your own backyard please.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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eyeswideopen: I agree with the arguments listed by the "God is Imaginary" Web site, but I doubt that any of those arguments would make a dent in your Catholic friend's belief system. Consider that your friend has other, non-rational motivations for believing in Catholicism. Reasons like:
1. He was raised Catholic; it's part of his culture.
2. He likes the rituals. They give him comfort.
3. It's something to belong to.
I'm not saying you shouldn't talk religion with your friend — especially if he's the one who starts it. But when you do, be prepared to learn this basic truth of human nature: Reason is one thing, Faith another.
Posted 1 year ago #
dawsonct
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You seem to be an evangelical agnostic Jiggers; if you REALLY didn't care, you would have ignored the thread completely.

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
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eyeswideopen: Thank you for having the courage to open this thread. In recent years I've become more open about my atheism, in part because of what I consider to be a frightening trend toward a kind of theistic nationalism in our country. Polls show that atheists are more hated, misunderstood, misrepresented - and therefore, largely closeted - than any 'minority' group in the U.S., including gays and Muslims.

The rationale in the following quote by Epicurus sums it up for me:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Posted 1 year ago #
blackwatch
Member Profile

Since the subject's been broached, I believe that not only is God imaginary but religion as a whole is based on delusion. It's a mechanism established to make people feel better about having no real concrete answers to our existence. And for all the 'proof' given to prove the existence of God, there is not one shred of actual concrete proof available that any God exists. There's a lot of "I prayed real hard and my cancer got cured" but none that establishes beyond even a reasonable doubt that there is in fact a God.
I'm sorry if this challenges someones steadfast faith or if it sounds cold, but like the poster above it's time to speak out against this craziness, it's killing the world and it's time we spoke up and woke up......

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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my take on things...whatever you believe or don't believe, it's yours and no one else's. It's private to you...no one needs for you to try and suck them into your beliefs, whatever they may be. Live a good life, no matter what you believe, but leave others to their own.

Posted 1 year ago #
Andy
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But, but Jan, eyeswideopen found a website. A WEBSITE! Finally, the world will be as one.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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Yeah, but JanS, if you knew "The Truth," wouldn't you want to shout it from the rooftops? For better or worse, religion plays a huge role in people's lives, right up there with race, gender, politics . . . It's hard for them to shut up about.

As far as organized religion goes, that's kind of like a pyramid scheme: it only works as long as it keeps expanding. But the same goes for atheism, when you think about it. Why can't atheists just be content not to believe in God? Why do they have to go around suing local governments and school boards to remove all public references to God? That's counterproductive.

Posted 1 year ago #
AlkiKmac
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How is posting and discussing our religious beliefs, or lack thereof, any different from posting and discussing politics & political issues? I don't think religion should be off-limits and kept to ourselves if politics can be debated.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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DP....my truth is different than your truth is different than her truth, is different than his truth. I would never expect anyone to believe what I do (or don't). It's mine...I own it. The problem I see is people who feel that their way is the only way, and yours be damned, and you'd better wake up. I once had a friend sit in my living room and tell me that if I wasn't "born again", I was going to go to hell. I showed her the door, and she was never invited into my home again. She had no idea what it was that I believed or didn't believe, what was in my heart. She assumed that I needed "saving", that I had to believe what she believed, that hers was the way. I resented that.

Discussions can be good, but someone will always insist that theirs is the only true right way, and mine is the wrong way..it ends discussion.

Andy...a website...wow...the interwebs can be scary at times, huh...

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

JanS, you've hit the nail on the head. If I'm understanding the collective gist of your posts, you think religion should be private. I agree, up to a point. However, as you point out, many Christians are anything BUT private; many even have a mandate from God to go out and harass people. Religion based PAC's have had an unhealthy impact on our political system. To some degree, our country has already become a theocracy in some ways, in violation of the Constitutional separation of church and state. Most atheists would rather just ignore the whole religion thing. It's only this not-so-insidious religious takeover of government and society that has prompted the demand for "equal time" in order to enforce the point that either all religion must be represented - or none. DP, I think that's why it's important that a stand be taken against government sponsored religious displays, and for that reason it is not counter-productive.

I found the website informative and useful. I'd be interested in hearing what was "scary" about it, aside from facts and rationality (which are scary to many Americans, especially believers). I agree with the premise that atheism must come out of the closet. Like any marginalized group, there are many more of us than statistics would indicate, although it is a fast growing demographic. The principles of free-thinking humanists could be of great benefit to all. Imagine...

Posted 1 year ago #
DOC
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Just watch a video or two of physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson talking about his reasons for being athiest. It's pretty darn interesting. Also, that dude is SMART!

Posted 1 year ago #
Andy
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I think Jan's "scary" comment was a follow-up to my facetiousness about how nice it is we have the internet here to fix the people who disagree with us. Nevermind millenia of deeply developed values and positions on both sides of the spiritual question. Nevermind that Christianity and Atheism have their roots in an eternity of human nature. Al Gore's internets are arrived to make our hapless friends whose beliefs we don't much like finally agree with us! Salvation is now yours, at 10Mbps!

Unless you are on Clear Wire, then it's all internet purgatory for you.

Posted 1 year ago #
thansen
Member Profile

Wow...can we really talk about this and not get stoned to death? I joke, but this is one of those topics I never discuss because I too am a Atheist and never felt comfortable expressing it. When ever I did it would either go 2 ways...the person would try to "enlighten" me and it would never end so I would never see that person again, or the person would be so indignant and judgemental that I would never want to see that person again.

In either case, it was clear that the person was someone I didn't wanted to know any way, but it became easier just to not ever talk about it.

Some times you just have to say out loud, I'm a progressive Democrat who doesn't believe in God.

Ahhh...that felt good :)

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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faith isn't rational...
that's why they call it faith:)

for me faith is not a subject for debate
but one for belief

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
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thansen, congratulations! Breathe in the fresh air and celebrate your life - it's the only one you've got. Who knows, someday you might even be able to speak the "L" word (liberal) without fear of stoning.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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anonyme: Are you serious? It's conservatives who are more likely to get stoned in this town . . .

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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DP not stoned.

They are however quite likely to get run over on 35th if they keep crossing against the light at Holden on Sunday morning.

Quotes to entertain my fellow Atheist:

"Since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless, those of us of pragmatic disposition simply won't buy such dubious merchandise. [...] Maybe -- remotely -- there might be something in such promotions, as there might be something in the talking dogs and the stocks in Arabian tapioca mines that W.C. Fields once sold in his comedies, but we suspect that we recognize a con game in operation. At least, we want to hear the dog talk or see the tapioca ore before we buy into such deals."
-- Robert Anton Wilson

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
-- Mark Twain

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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The Zen Master said to the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything?"
The hot dog vendor hands him one with everything.
The Zen master hands him a $20 bill and the vendor pockets it.
"What about my change?" asked the Zen master.

...The hot dog vendor says, "Change must come from within."

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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"The way to make money is to start your own religion." [L. Ron Hubbard, 1954]

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart."
-- Henry Mencken

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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are we talking about organized religion
or about god?

while i gave up on one
i find that no matter how hard i try the other hasn't given up on me.

that's the thing about faith.
you either believe or you don't

it's a hedged bet either way isn't it.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

JoB, you must be referring to how you can give up on God, but the Mormon missionaries will still show up at your door.
;-) (Kidding...)

Posted 1 year ago #
BigPhil
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I must say the non-religious glut in Seattle is still throwing me off guard. I just moved here from Colorado Springs, where everyone and their neighbor is a brow-beating evangelist keen to judge you for your sinful behavior. I drove by New Life Church (of male-prostitute-hiring meth-snorting evangelist Ted Haggard's fame) and another mega-church just to get to work every day! I wouldn't dare let my own beliefs be exposed, and I had an Atheist pin or t-shirt that I'd only wear if I had two or three friends around. If my employer(s) had known my disbelief, I would have immediately been distrusted, because atheists are clearly shady and will lie and steal (per them).

If the mega-churches and massive evangelical population wasn't enough, we also had the conservative Air Force Academy and the headquarters of many evangelical organizations, including Focus on the Family.

Here, I mention that I don't buy into the nonsense that is Christianity and Islam and I get looked at like "yea, so?"

Refreshing doesn't even do it justice.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

BigPhil, I have to admit that when you mentioned in your initial post that you moved here from Colorado Springs, I was the slightest bit... curious, we'll say, about how "Colorado Springy" you are. I have read a lot about how conservative that city is, and yes, how evangelical the population tends to be. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, of course, but I came from a decidedly non-religious background (not atheist, but certainly not devout), so I don't generally relate well to people with very strong religious convictions.

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

Eskimo: If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?
Priest: No, not if you did not know.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

DP: It may be safe to utter the word "liberal" in West Seattle; the rest of the state, or even other parts of the city, not so much. Bellevue, for example.

Ken, I like your style. Included one of my personal favorites, above. We should all get together for an Atheist Coming Out Party...!?

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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If it weren't for God, how would atheists define themselves?

http://www.wimp.com/walkwater/

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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DP..

well... yes.

loved the video clip.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Sarah..

i don't think anything will get rid of mormon missionaries at the door.. not even attack dogs.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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"An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf question."
-- John McCarthy

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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"*Atheism, therefore, is the absence of theistic belief.* One who does not believe in the existence of a god or supernatural being is properly designated as an atheist. Atheism is sometimes defined as "the belief that there is no God of any kind," or the claim that a god cannot exist. While these are categories of atheism, they do not exhaust the meaning of atheism-- and are somewhat misleading with respect to the basic nature of atheism. *Atheism, in its basic form, is not a belief: it is the absence of belief.* An atheist is not primarily a person who *believes* that a god does *not* exist, rather he does *not believe* in the existence of a god."
-- George Smith

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

DP, funny video. It was supposed to be funny, right? I kept picturing Jesus in a wet suit practicing his technique.

As to your question, I would say that atheists don't define themselves solely by what they don't believe. They define themselves as everything else under the sun - not under heaven. We are humans doing the best we can with the time we have on this planet; we live, love, work, play and think. We are are already without God, so need no further definition. It's like asking who Democrats would be without Sarah Palin. Who cares?

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
Member Profile

Bible based marriage laws:
A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)

-- Hunter

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Ken...

good heavens..

are you that literal?
i mean.. on everything?

somehow i doubt that.
because i am sure i can find some science texts that still contain some real doozies...
and that's SCIENCE ...
the great god of atheists everywhere...

Don't you know that God is she who doesn't need to be defended ;->

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
Member Profile

JOB, I grew up around Biblical literalism and there are several on this forum :)

Cherrypicking fundies keep telling us that every word is true until you cite one of these and then it is allegory.

"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope."
-- P.J. O'Rourke

Posted 1 year ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

One difference between science and theism is that science not only welcomes scrutiny, it demands it. Ascribing to a cult of female deities does not change the fact that political, patriarchal Gods continue to persecute women the world over. Sadly, it would appear that a matriarchal God is just as impotent and apathetic as that other one.

Man made God in his own image. Or hers.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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"It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible."
-- George W. Foote

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html?_r=1

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
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The problem is not science. The problem is science where it interfaces with journalism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/sep/24/1

The republican war on science could not be won without the now traditional formula used on media sites and tv.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

anonyme..

science demands scrutiny?
LOL.. believing that takes real faith.

i live each day with one of those "mystery" illnesses... a mystery because science hasn't caught up with it's cause and likely won't until the scientist at the CDC who labeled it hysteria in the 80s retires...

religion isn't the only place where one encounters dogged literalism to one's dismay.

the good news is that there are still scientists who choose to question...

and believers who do the same.

as for that female cult thing...
it's a joke..
the only gender god has is that designated by man... who has used it to abuse women.

still.. every belief system starts with a story
even atheism.

Ken..

i was raised in one of those households myself... and have a son who has made the same choice.

and yet.. my faith survived...
now that is true miracle ;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
Ken
Member Profile

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/28/dont-know-much-about-religion-youre-not-alone-study-finds/?hpt=Mid

Not surprising since every evangelical and fundy I know is proud that they don't have any books in the house except the Bible. Could be a southern thing though. My ex-mother-in law was freaked by how many books I owned.

I aced the above test.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Ken..

that was a test?

I was raised with books in the house... abbreviated classics and the encyclopedia...
if only my mother had known how dangerous those books were when read :->

we are doing our best to limit the number of books in our house these days and still my personal library has a couple dozen plus books on the world's religions..

Being a christian doesn't make you illiterate, narrow minded or judgmental.

Posted 1 year ago #
Blitztour
Member Profile

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
Member Profile

From anonyme:

We are humans doing the best we can with the time we have on this planet; we live, love, work, play and think. We are are already without God, so need no further definition. It's like asking who Democrats would be without Sarah Palin. Who cares?

—If that works for you anonyme, then great. But now that you mention it, what would Democrats be without Sarah Palin?

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.

—Voltaire

—What the hell do you suppose Voltaire meant by that?

And now for something completely inflammatory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68

Posted 1 year ago #
ws4ever
Member Profile

People choose their beliefs about religion. So why try to change someone else's mind if they perceive things differently through the lens of their own personality or experience? Gah! If we understand that we're just talkin', then it can be interesting to explore ideas.

Posted 1 year ago #
HolyKow
Member Profile

I have to point out that the seperation of church and state is NOT specifically present in any form in the Constitution. It was an idea that was supported first by a sitting president in 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptists by then president, Thomas Jefferson.

This is one of the primary places where we devise that the Founding Fathers were in favor of non-theocratic form of government, unlike the Christian Extremists that are attempting to further hijack our government in the name of god and "HIS" teachings (so far as their selective readings of those "teachings" are).

The letter to the Danbury Baptists below,

hk

================================================

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," *thus building a wall of separation between Church & State*. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

Posted 1 year ago #
HolyKow
Member Profile

And to all those that claim that we should use the bible as the basis for the law.....
hk

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price
for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how
do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours.
They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also
tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to
all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?
Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family
affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Posted 1 year ago #

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