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Go Barack

Started 4 years ago by charlabob
Latest reply from JoB

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charlabob
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OK, I\'ve been on the fence since Edwards dropped out, but the latest ploy of the Clinton campaign, to try to divide delegates between caucus, elected, and super, is just too much! I want(ed) a woman president, in my lifetime, in the worst way. But not this bad. I want hope, not hackery. And the sad thing is I don\'t think Hillary is a hack - I think she\'s lost her way. and now she\'s desperate and digging the hole deeper.

Here\'s the quotation from a Newsweek interview with Hillary:

Interviewer: How can you win the nomination when the math looks so bleak for you?

Hill: It doesn\'t look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they\'re all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose. Even elected and caucus delegates are not required to stay with whomever they are pledged to. This is a very carefully constructed process that goes back years, and we\'re going to follow the process.

Here\'s the link to the complete interview:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/120062/page/2

And here, to begin the Obamaness of this thread, is a link to the Obama cover story *and endorsement* in this week\'s Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/

In the same issue there\'s an article by Matt Taibbi, one of the best YOUNG political writers alive, about Hillary. It\'s not positive -- fortunately it\'s not online, so you\'ll have to find it on your own: I come not to bury Hillary -- I come to (finally) make up my mind.

the c

Posted 4 years ago #
JanS
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Charla....I\'m sure I\'m not the only one who feels this way...when you hear things like this, that the people that WE designated to vote for OUR candidate can just go do whatever they want, well, is there any doubt why there\'s so much apathy. You simply throw you hands up and say \"What\'s the f*#king point.

As much as I admire Hillary, I really dislike the succumbing to the nastiness and dirty tricks. Yes, JoB, perhaps that\'s the nature of politics...but...why can\'t that change? why does it simply have to be the accepted way?

me? still a mugwump.....

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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no fair hitting a girl when she\'s down.. and i am not talking about hillary:)

i will try to assemble my few brain cells and be coherent:( thank god (ok.. some techie.. but i would rather thank god) for spell checker.

There are three kinds of delegates.. elected, caucus and superdelegates. Just a statement of fact... remember, texas has both... and i don\'t think they are alone.. though i am not aware of any other state that requires caucus delegates to have voted in the primary...

some state party rules require them to vote as their state voted (both primary elections and some caucuses) in the first round of voting... after that it\'s just plain a free for all.

Ken will correct me if i am wrong, but i think the caucus delegates here are free to change their minds before the convention... in sort of a caucus for caucus delegates... we nominate our delegates to the state party caucus from our local caucus if i got it right.

The idea that there is some kind of democratic process in the primaries is a fairly new one. It\'s basically the party taking the temperature of their constituencies... they can\'t go too far out on a limb or they risk voters throwing them out in the next election (at least those who are still elected officials) but they certainly don\'t let mere voters choose their party\'s candidate. Never really have. That\'s why they created superdelegates.

I am surprised that you two would overlook that basic fact and that you would criticize her for merely being accurate.

Now, i will have to actually go look for the rolling stone article.. but i am not surprised that they endorsed Obama. I wouldn\'t have expected anything else... they are after all basically a youth and personality culture.

And i don\'t mean that as a put down.. i have been reading rolling stone nearly my entire adult life and they often do more than credible investigative reporting... that\'s why i wouldn\'t dream of commenting on an article of theirs without first reading it:).. but their endorsement doesn\'t surprise me.

who knows.. maybe the rolling stone article will change my mind... but i doubt it:) charlabob, you read it.. will it change my mind??? ;->

Posted 4 years ago #
charlabob
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No, it won\'t change your mind; RS may be \"youth oriented\" but they cover dinosauer rockers, do great political coverage, and Jann Wenner (the founder and publisher who wrote the endorsement) is 3 years younger than me. :-)

Actually, I don\'t think minds can be changed -- I think mine has been always leaning and, unless a pol does something incredibly stupid (are you reading this, Governor Spitzer????) people remain loyal.

I\'ve just reached my level of fedupness with the games being played on the Clinton side. I will also post links about Hill\'s foreign policy experience--questioned by participants in the Northern Ireland peace negotiations and the Bosnian trip.

I hope this isn\'t true, but I\'m beginning to see a woman of a certain age, sad about the years she spent \"Standing By Her Man,\" and trying to make more of those years than was there.

Can somebody please find a few anti-McCain articles and start a \"Don\'t Go McCain\" thread?

I really find it sad, and maybe emblematic, that forums where Lib Dems are clearly in the majority are debating the merits of two exceptional candidates who should be banding together and eating the lunch of the third term Bush Republican candidate.

the c

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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charlabob..

\"I really find it sad, and maybe emblematic, that a forums where Lib Dems are clearly in the majority is debating the merits of two exceptional candidates who should be banding together and eating the lunch of the third term Bush Republican candidate.\"

i will second that!

and maybe tomorrow i will start an anybody but McCain thread:) .. with links. shouldn\'t be too hard...

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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i went looking for something else, but found this...

http://digg.com/gadgets/Obama_not_McCain_or_Clinton_votes_for_electronic_privacy

this would have.. and has.. gotten my attention...

it hasn\'t changed my mind, but it has made me feel better about the lot of you changing yours:)

Posted 4 years ago #
Kayleigh
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Hillary Clinton betrayed the Democratic party with her antics. If she can do it at this phase of the game, how badly will she betray us once she\'s in office and she doesn\'t need our votes?

And Jo, if you write a long missive defending her once again, I won\'t read it. I luv ya but you\'re starting to sound like the 19%-ers who defend every despicable thing Bush does.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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no Kayleigh.. i don\'t defend anything despicable.. i just don\'t buy into the media frenzy labeling everything despicable...

Posted 4 years ago #
Kayleigh
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Just what does she need to do before it becomes despicable to you, Jo? She crossed the line long ago for me.

Now she tells the world Obama isn\'t qualified to be Vice President. I guess I will vote for McCain or Nader, then, cause the odds I will vote for her are decreasing every day.

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/03/clinton_spokesman_declares_oba.html

Posted 4 years ago #
charlabob
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Ah, yes, Kayleigh, but she and her staff have said he will be qualified by the convention. In other words, \"As soon as you nominate me, he\'ll get better.\"

I\'ll vote for either of them, and I won\'t hold my nose in either case. But I understand those who won\'t -- I\'ve caught some of JoB\'s even-handedness -- it\'s temporary; I took a pill

First of all, she\'s not going to be nominated. If it comes to that, Gore will be drafted.

If you can\'t stand her, leave the top of the ticket blank.

Don\'t vote for McCain--he\'s dangerous. There will be a continuation of the rush to an imperial presidency, the decline of anything except sham democracy, .. everything bad that I\'m saving for the \"Don\'t go McCain\" thread that JoB promised to start in her copious free time. :-)

c

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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Almost 100% of republicans despise Hillary. Nearly half of the democrats don\'t care for her either. No matter how smart or capable she may be, how effective of a leader would she be in that position? America has lost so much credibility. It just may be more important to get behind a candidate that really can unite us. I haven\'t heard of any one on either side of the isle that would find it difficult to work with or for Obama. I think that\'s as important a reason as anything to support him.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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Charlabob..

i am sooooo sorry..... i had no idea it was infectious ;->

kayeligh.. that Hillary has said that Obama is not ready to be commander in chief is not news. It doesn\'t matter if he is to be president or VP... it\'s her point and she is sticking to it...

and if the MSNBC article that beachdrivegirl flagged us on is any indication (which by the way i am taking with three grains of salt thrown over my shoulder) he isn\'t.

He is definately ready to campaign. He is a brilliant campaigner. But is he ready to govern?

Who knows?

It\'s past time to stop blaming Clinton for questioning him and find out.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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JT.. republicans promoting Obama\'s candidacy in any way makes my skin crawl...

Posted 4 years ago #
Kayleigh
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JoB, Obama\'s as qualified as Hillary\'s husband was (in fact, more so.) Thinking people know this; even Hillary knows this. He\'s plenty qualified, and only her ruthlessness and blind ambition prevent her from admitting it. And even if I decided he wasn\'t qualified in my opinion, I still wouldn\'t vote for Hillary.

I almost hope she keeps this nonsense up; it will give me an excuse to stop contributing to the Democratic party altogether and start calling myself an Independent.

Yes, I am that POed at her.

Posted 4 years ago #
charlabob
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And then there\'s this option -- for a (maybe)bright (not)shiny (NOT)new America:

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorblog/062

Buzzflash is another good source of fair and balanced, \'er \"Liberal Propaganda\".

Posted 4 years ago #
andrea
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For the record, myself, my sister, my mother, and my right-bearing father are all big Hillary supporters. At my work, which is a federal government agency, I\'d say half or more of the office is routing for Hillary (and not a one for GW btw!). JoB is not alone in her support of Hillary, I\'m just not as vocal or eloquent as she is in her statements. Please realize Jo that I and many others that read this blog do appreciate and cheer on your \'long missives defending her\'. I cannot articulate enough how this hate on hate Democrat crime tick\'s me off. I will be happy with either candidate on the Democratic ticket and will vote for whoever that is, but at this point Hillary is still my woman. Those of you out there who say that if Obama is not the man up for election you\'ll go green and vote for Nader, or go altogether nuts and vote for McCain, are why the Democartic party is in the mess its been for the last 8 years.

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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JoB - I really wanted to be for Hillary, but her campaigning is what\'s changing my mind. My only hesitancy over Obama has always been the experience thing, but he can surround himself with experience. Meanwhile, Hillary is sounding more like McCain. CharlaBob\'s link kind of fits.

And I wasn\'t implying before that republicans are for Obama, only that they aren\'t adamantly against him. There is no way we can turn things around without working together. Who offers the best chance of that from either party?

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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charalabob..

if that was the liberal viewpoint...

i may have to join kayleigh in independence... i would be that po\'d at the idea of anyone associating me with that...

That button and article does exactly what it accuses her of doing.

powerful image tho... good campaigning.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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Kayleigh.. i know you are passionate... and i like that a lot..

but when did President Clinton become Hillary\'s husband when we are referring to the responsibilities of the presidency?

And... what actually makes Obama more qualified than Bill Clinton was?

the propaganda of recent years may have made us believe that saying it made it so... but that doesn\'t work for me.

what qualifies Obama? it\'s still a valid question.

Posted 4 years ago #
Kayleigh
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Andrea, Hillary and her style of campaigning are what\'s wrong with the party, not those of us who dare to call her on it.

Just what does she have to do to convince you that she\'s harming the party? She has essentially come out in favor of McCain over her own party\'s leading candidate. She is using Rovian fear-based campaigning---do you think the independents and Republicans aren\'t listening?

I wanted to be wrong about her and tried to see the good about her, but my instincts were right.

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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JoB - Obama is not qualified. People will keep saying that to convince themselves because they know that he isn\'t qualified. He\'s different and represents a radical change, that\'s what is appealing. Qualified, though? No.

I read someone\'s post that said it was okay that Obama has no experience because he just needs to surround himself with experience. Are you kidding me?!!

Thanks, but I would like my President to know what the H*** he\'s doing!

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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Andrea...

\"Those of you out there who say that if Obama is not the man up for election you\'ll go green and vote for Nader, or go altogether nuts and vote for McCain, are why the Democartic party is in the mess its been for the last 8 years.\"

In all fairness we can\'t really blame people who have for the most part just discovered politics for the first time (and are incredibly passionate) for the mess the party has been in..

we have to blame our party for not adequately educating voters... for buying into the hype and letting the real issues slide while we were so busy defending ourselves that we allowed someone else put together our talking points for us.

We have to blame ourselves for not becoming more passionately involved in the last two elections. i know i didn\'t choose to work this hard last time when the media turned a good thoughtful thinking war hero into a figure of fun... It was as much my failure as anyone else\'s... his back porch talks were incredible.. and anyone who doesn\'t think so is either republican or never actually listened to one.

I am honored to represent the other Hillary supports. I know there are lots of other Hillary supporters out there. look what happens when the decision about who to support in the primaries is moved from caucus to the privacy of the ballot box.

look what happened here. It is a close race.. regardless of the hype...

Just because we don\'t show up in droves at rallies doesn\'t mean that those voters who support Hillary don\'t exist...

But your point about the divisiveness that is happening in the party right now is one i have been struggling to make.

If you are a democrat... you believe in democratic ideas and would support them no matter who the candidate is.

If you\'re not.. if you only care about your candidate... then get the heck out of the party (for the good of the party) and let those of us who will still be here regardless of the candidate get on with getting the job of working for democratic ideals.

Whew. that came out a lot stronger than i meant it to.. and it isn\'t directed at you personally kayleigh...

but it\'s time to focus on what really matters and i don\'t care whether your candidate is Hillary or Obama.. they are not what matters.

Repairing the damage done to our country by 8 years of the Bush Whitehouse is what matters...

finding the right person to win the election and then accomplish the heavy work ahead is what matters.

Kayleigh, if Obama wins the election, do you really want Hillary supporters to leave the field and let him flounder.. or do you want us to roll up our sleeves and get him elected?

Because if you want that for your candidate, you need to give equal respect to Hillary.

It\'s not our job to get your candidate elected for you.

getting a democrat elected is the job of every democrat this fall... regardless of who wins the nomination.

Posted 4 years ago #
rs261
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Heres some fodder for the no McCain
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/11/mccain.airbus.ap/index.html

Its regarding the airbus/boeing deal going on right now. Of course also being known as Senator Hothead doesnt help.

I personally dont like hillary because she has the same political style as her husband...rule by polls and flavor of the moment. Anybody remember he stance on \"violent video games\"? What about her hedge fund tax, yet she got her daughter a 500k a year job at one right out of school. Of course my favorite is requiring everyone to have medical insurance...what cant pay for it? thats ok we\'ll just take it out of your paycheck.

Oh, and for the record, I\'ll be happy with either hillary or Obama as president. (and maybe even mccain, we\'ll see on that one)

Posted 4 years ago #
villagegreen
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I\'m so freaking sick of people questioning Obama\'s experience, while at the same time saying that Hillary has been vetted. People seem to accept it as a given that she\'s \'experienced\'. But experienced in what? She had her 3am moment and chose to authorize the war. Way to go Hillary. Your so called experienced really paid off there.

Check out this article about her (and Obama\'s) real experience: http://www.slate.com/id/2182073/

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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Kayleigh.. what do you think the democratic party is that Hillary is ruining?

It is not the Obama party...

It is not the party of \"i want it to be different\".

This is a political party.. in service of political power.. that gains that power only if it appeases the people who support it...

This is a political party... involved in a political process... not a democratic institution... by the people for the people. You are confusing the party with the government...

the party has no checks and balances to protect the people... it just has politics.. the business of trading favor for favor.... and only one real goal.. to perpetuate itself.

Hillary Clinton has worked tirelessly for the democratic party.. to say she should stand aside (for the good of the party) because you favor another candidate is pretty self serving... and incredibly naive.

but ther eis one thing you can be sure of.. the Hilalry Clinton who has spent her entire adult life working for the party won\'t quit if she loses the primary.... you would and could expect her to work tirelessly to get your candidate elected...

that is what \"for the good of the party\" means.

Posted 4 years ago #
JohnM
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What exactly makes Hillary more qualified?

Posted 4 years ago #
Sue
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What I don\'t understand is why any energy is even being put into whether Clinton or Obama are better than the other. At this point, I don\'t have any say in the matter - the caucus is over, the primary was pointless (for democrats) here, so the next time I\'m asked to vote, the decision will have already been made for me on which democratic candidate I can choose to vote for. I ask this in all seriousness: is there anything we can truly do as WA democrats that can influence the decision at this point as to who gets nominated?

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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villagegreen...

the article you linked in SLATE actually is an example of exactly what i was trying to point out.

I read the entire article.. and at no point did it actually defend Obama\'s experience... it simply was a rant that could have been titled.. what right does she have to claim experience...

and right there.. in the article you linked to was this classy little line, \"her sharing Bill Clinton\'s bed most nights while he was Arkansas governor and president of the United States.\"

Blatant sexism... yet that\'s ok with you?

I get the idea anything is ok with Obama supporters as long as it puts Hillary in her place while nothing is ok if it questions Obama.

Thin skins don\'t\' get elected. righteous indignation will only take you so far...

and.. the real kicker... disrespect has a trickle down effect.

You might not find it so wonderful to be dismissed as someone\'s bedmate just because the man you married happened to share your life\'s work...

go to MSNBC and look a their political cartoons and ask yourself what most of them really have to do with Hillary\'s candidacy... and those are the relatively clean ones...

Posted 4 years ago #
rs261
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\"Going by years spent as an elective official, Obama\'s 11 years exceeds Clinton\'s seven, which in turn exceeds Edwards\' six. But it\'s a silly calculus.\"

Shes the one touting experience not him. He\'s the one touting unity of the parties and the country

And we still dont know why she is more qualified.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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Sue asked: \"is there anything we can truly do as WA democrats that can influence the decision at this point as to who gets nominated?\"

this is a good question and i don\'t have an answer.

Ken, do you?

JohnM... what makes Hillary more qualified? i think i went there and did that in the go hillary thread and a couple more. ..

look under the political discussions at the top...

As for what makes her more qualified as commander in chief.. i can supply one little detail... something i listened to on Democracy Now...

There was a group of retired military commanders who were briefing all of the candidates (who chose to be briefed) on what they thought the military should do about the current middle east situation. all of the democratic candidates at the time attended.. but only two stayed and asked more questions.. Biden and Clinton.

She really does want to know all of the details..

if i do the rest of why Hillary again, kayleigh will mutiny:) and possibly with cause:)

Posted 4 years ago #
WSMom
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http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=163288

Kayleigh: I too am a Obama supporter. I believe he is the best person to inspire and lead our nation out of the mess the Republican has party has driven our country into. There were times, especially after reading JoB\'s musings, that I felt a tinge of regret that Hillary hadn\'t done a better job grabbing my imagination, as I have tremendous respect for her intelligence and tenacity. As a Obama supporter, I have felt the need in talking with friends to defend Clinton (using JoB\'s talking points), because if she somehow does end up with the Democratic nomination it is imperative that our nation come together to put a Democrat into office. For me it is as simple as that. We cannot have another four years of business as usual. I believe our children\'s future depends on this.

On a different note, I\'m curious what you make of the Newsweek article which says that Hillary\'s best case delagate count scenario will in the end put her behind Obama. I\'m trying to understand why she is going negative to continue her campaign given the math. This seems counter-intelligent. Any thoughts?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/118240

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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ok.. i followed Charlabob\'s link to the rolling stone articles.. and i will have their endorsement rattling around my head for a while... while i sort the very good and impassioned writer from reality...

but there are a couple of things there that still bother me... in spite of their skill. one is the obvious... it\'s all about his campaign.. but once he is elected.. what have we elected?

the endorsement comes close to that.. but there is something there that makes me uncomfortable as well... on global warming she says he is not on board but she is sure his intelligence will lead him there...

this rings too much of the political endorsements in many major newspapers for Bush.. he hasn\'t come through with any of his campaign promises but we liked them so we want to give him another chance to do what he said he would...

i am not equating Bush and Obama.. but i am saying that resting your endorsement on hope may not be in your best interests.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
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WSMom.. you can crunch numbers any way you want to.. but until they decide what to do about Florida and Michigan.. and until it\'s done.. we don\'t know....

and.. since several super delegates have supposedly changed their allegiance... it goes without saying that we really don\'t know until they vote.. they could still do anything.

it\'s not over till the fat lady sings.. but i confess to not knowing who the fat lady is:)

Posted 4 years ago #
rs261
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Barack Obama
Would implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to the level recommended by top scientists. Would make the United States a leader in the global effort to combat climate change by leading anew international global warming partnership. Would establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS) to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. Would create a Technology Transfer program within the Department of Energy dedicated to exporting climate-friendly technologies to developing countries. Would offer incentives to maintain forests globally and manage them sustainably. Would develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

Hillary Clinton
Would develop a new treaty to replace the Kyoto Protocol, which is set to expire in 2012. Would focus on international attention to solve the problem of global deforestation. Would focus the mission of the Department of Energy on moving toward energy independence with a new approach to solar, wind, biofuels, hydropower, geothermal and other sources of renewable energy. Would place a market-based cap and trade system to reduce carbon pollution. â€¦In combination with efficiency, fuel economy standards and other proposals, she states the system will ensure the goal of reducing U.S. contribution to global warming below 1990 levels by 80 percent. Would oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildfire Refuge.

Sounds like hes on board to clean things up to me. I always think its more about who you surround yourself with then what you believe. As long as the right people are in the right positions they\'ll do the right thing. Al Gore will probably end up in some sort of environmental spot sooner or later...

Yes, the super delegates..you cant forget those. Like the skit on SNL the other day with Huckabee.

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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NewResident - I wasn\'t kidding you. None of the candidates have experience as the president. They all will have to learn the job on the job. As for political experience in it\'s entirety, it has already been established that Obama has the most (11 years). My other concerns would be, where do you stand on the issues, how smart are you, how willing are you to learn and listen to experts. How effective of a leader would you be? Can you work with both sides and implement your ideas? Can you restore our standing in the world community? Etc., etc.

Are you trying to say Bush knew/knows what he\'s doing, cuz I sure don\'t see it that way.

Posted 4 years ago #
Kayleigh
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WSMom, I think she\'s counting on the superdelegates...not sure why else she would do that. Seems like a shaky propostion, though, and look how many of us she is alienating.

I don\'t know how else to tell the party that if Hillary is the nominee, that I believe the party is making a mistake and going in the wrong direction, other than not voting for her.

We have to change the direction of the country. We just have to. Of course McCain won\'t do it and Nader can\'t do it without the support of a major party. Edwards was our best hope, and now we have Obama.

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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JT - I know that you\'re not kidding. I realize you are a passionate Obama supporter. I don\'t get it, but according to Kayleigh, I never will since I am Republican.

By the way, Obama does not have the most experience compared to ALL candidates.
Everyone wants to share their favorite article that paints their candidate in the best light. Follow this link for pure facts and compare.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

Below is a link to some research done not just on the quantity of bills passed but also the quality of bills passed for McCain, Obama, and Clinton. As you will see Clinton has written 155 bills and has passed 13 in 2007. Obama has written 115 bills and passed 21 in 2007. I urge everyone out there to click on the link and read what each Senator has been adviacating while in Washington. I believe that those individuals that are doubting Obama will feel a bit more @ ease after reading through the bills he has written and got passed.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

Thanks for the link beachdrivegirl

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JT.. what am i to do with you?

stats only work if you understand their framework.

\"As for political experience in it\'s entirety, it has already been established that Obama has the most (11 years).\"

so.. no political experience counts unless it is elected office??? interesting.

I don\'t think you really believe that when it is put that way.

beachdrivegirl...

\"As you will see Clinton has written 155 bills and has passed 13 in 2007. Obama has written 115 bills and passed 21 in 2007.\"

was there nothing happening in Washington prior to 2007? How did he do the previous year when he didn\'t have teddy\'s help?

But let\'s just take 2007.

i followed the link and looked at every bill quoted.... and i found i didn\'t agree with the writer\'s emphasis...

one of the things she liked about Obama, i really didn\'t. she liked that his bills affected far more people.. broader range is how she put it i think.

But in her two real examples, the Clinton alternative actually offered more real protection and solutions to those who need it most.

She liked that Obama was concerned about lead paint in toys.... passing laws to make sure that toys are regulated... after all.. to paraphrase her... there were millions of toys

whereas Clinton wanted to get lead paint out of homes.... and only a few homes have lead paint...

Lead paint exists mostly in the homes of the very poor who don\'t have the option of simply moving... and Hillary\'s vehicle of tax incentives would actually have helped those who chose to take on urban renewal (buying a marginal house.. fixing it and living in it or selling it) as well... a well considered bill that would have had immediate effect in removing lead paint from homes....

Aside from the fact that I am more concerned with lead paint in homes.. where people don\'t have the option of simply moving away... than with toys that are generally simply replaced when they are found to be toxic... his bill would have created more laws. hers offered a practical solution for eliminating lead paint from homes...

same with the mtg issue.. Hillary wanted good disclosure laws on contracts so that people know what they are signing... this would have had an immediate effect on those defrauding the poor who are generally less savvy because banks would have stepped up their scrutiny... they wouldn\'t have wanted to be the one left holding worthless paper...

he wanted laws making mtg fraud illegal... fraud is already illegal... very hard to prosecute because you have to prove deliberate intent to defraud.. and as the FBI is finding out right now.. that\'s not so easy. but still illegal.

Again, he wanted more laws.. she wanted regulations that would directly effect the real outcome of non-disclosure in mtg transactions...

When you are looking at these pieces that seem to be so well researched, it\'s good to look at the assumptions built into the arguments to see if you actually agree with them.

This writer\'s basic assumption was that a bill\'s worth could be measured by it\'s passage... not by it\'s content. i think that\'s a bad assumption.

rs261.. thanks for supplying some real info.. i was only quoting the endorsement in the Rolling stones article...

and i forgot to pick up the Rolling Stone while i was at the grocery.. probably a fruedian slip:)

NewResident.. i am sorry.. i was unable to follow your link...

One thing i have noticed... nobody comments on the really ugly issues i have raised... they just go on to find new points....

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
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Efficieny is very important to me. Who is goign to get the job done at the end of the day? Hillary was only able to pass 8% of her bills while Obama was able to pass 18%.

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
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Efficieny is very important to me. Who is goign to get the job done at the end of the day? Hillary was only able to pass 8% of her bills while Obama was able to pass 18%.

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
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JoB - I agree that nobody will respond to the bad points of Obama. Everyone very quickly just starts talking about why Clinton is so wrong.

Can someone please go into detail about what exactly Obama has done (in all his experience) that you agree with (not just what he\'s saying he\'s going to do)!! And don\'t just refer us to an article you happen to agree with. Also, if you talk about his next door neighbor (or lack thereof) you get extra credit!

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
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Obama is projected winner of Mississippi! Go OBama!

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
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Obama is projected winner of Mississippi! Go OBama!

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

I don\'t know why my link isn\'t working for you, JoB. When I try it, it works fine. It pretty much is just bare facts (DOB, how long in office, previous jobs, etc.) But if you want to look at experience and things these candidates have done, it lays it out there pretty straight forward.

Posted 4 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

What about S.AMDT.524 S. Con RES 21 to add $100 million for low income students to lessen the gap in education??? or the numerous bills in reference to our armed forces such as the bill to provide employment security for families who are caring for injured while on active duty? I believe we can all pick on or find weakness in at least one bill that each canidate has written and passed but you cant dwell on it. When reading these successes of Obama\'s Clintons bills do not compete.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

beachdrivegirl...

so you don\'t care about the content of bills?

any bill passed counts for you as efficiency?

So.. you are more interested in form than function?

Because that is exactly what that comment says...

BTW.. just in case you didn\'t know or understand... a bill has a much better chance of passing if it happens to include compromises for nearly every legislator who votes for it... most bills that pass start out being worth something and by the time they reach the lowest common denominator aren\'t worth much... at least their core purpose isn\'t.. generally their pork is.

perhaps you should check out some of those individual bills that make up the stats and see if you like what he was passing...

i have been so busy today that i missed Mississippi altogether.. and probably a lot more besides...

i am glad for you...

I will wait to see how i really weigh in on today\'s primaries after i see how the delegates are apportioned... after all a win might not mean much...

at least that\'s what you told me when it was the other candidate in texas and ohio:)

Posted 4 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

Oh JoB - I guess I just like to see you riled up:) The whole experience comment was just in response to NR being appalled that I think it\'s ok to surround yourself with talented, expert people and to use their knowledge. She was looking for \"political\" experience as the only experience that counts. I think experience comes from a wide variety of places myself. And really, the truth is, I would be completely happy with either Hillary or Barack and will wholeheartedly support whomever gets the nomination.

Posted 4 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

I want someone to explain something to me....

WSmom shared with me that she had decided to back Obama because he had captured the interest in politics and excitement of her child.

There is a female democratic senator who said much the same thing...

And then in Newsweek i read a piece by the son of Joanne Atler.. a real life hero for breaking the gender barrier in chicago politics... which nearly concludes with this:

\"When my two sisters became active Obama volunteers and her granddaughters as well as grandsons grew excited about politics for the first time, my mother began to think about the contest in a new way. The next president was for them, not her, she reasoned. Slowly idealism edged identity.\"

the general philosophy behind all this seems to be that idealism trumps all else in politics...

(i have chosen to let the idea that the only reason to support Hillary is gender slip past with only a mention).

This reads too much like a song inspiration for me.. What the world needs now.... is idealism?

I know that those of us who are my age would love to put politics and reality on the back burner right now.. this is not the world we thought our idealism would lead us to...

and quite frankly.. it didn\'t work out so well the first time... other than ending the war in Vietnam and watching Richard Nixon dig himself deeper and deeper into what really should have been criminal charges... life didn\'t take and idealistic turn...

as a nation, we seemed to brush ourselves off.. say we were done with that... we got our gestures.. and went back to business as usual.

Affluent blacks and women did gain a lot from our idealism... and we have made progress as a nation in some areas...

but we obviously were not done with sensless war or with the underground war against women, blacks, immigrants, the poor .. in other words.. anyone in our society who wasn\'t white, male and well educated... oh.. and affluent.

We have allowed our government to make a mess of things... Our economy is in trouble. Our environment is in trouble. Our health care industry now provides us marginal health at maximum prices. We are at war.

I am all for idealism.. but wouldn\'t it be good to actually straighten out a few of these problems first.. before we hand the torch on to our unsuspecting children and grandchildren? ... who idealists that they are... think they will do a better job than we did.

Somehow, this seems wrong to me.

Posted 4 years ago #

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