Hey all --
I'm in the $189 ticket club now as well. I was going southbound on 1/14/2013 at 8:06am and got photographed going thirty two miles per hour, while the light was flashing. I decided to go out for myself and see how clear the signs were, and how much time you had to react to the posted signs. I'm come to the conclusion that it is VERY hard to react quick enough not to get a ticket. Check out the video proof on the link below:
dhg
Member Profile
I feel your pain and agree 100%. There are too many distractions, such as drivers pulling into the lane who've timed it just right where they won't hit you so long as you don't brake.
I also think the $189 ticket is highway robbery.
dhg
Member Profile
I feel your pain and agree 100%. There are too many distractions, such as drivers pulling into the lane who've timed it just right where they won't hit you so long as you don't brake.
I also think the $189 ticket is highway robbery.
Weird. The original post containing a video link just disappeared while I was looking at this thread. Was it a rules violation?
Anyway, I have a question for the OP if he's still around:
Sir, you imply that the ticket camera photographs cars just at the moment they're passing the flashing-light sign. Are you sure that's correct?
Reason I ask is because that has a bearing on the amount of slow-down time drivers have.
An easy fix for this would be to put a second (much smaller) set of flashing lights at the first warning sign. Or . . . they could just point the camera at a spot that's another two seconds of travel time past the second sign.
Either way, it would give drivers more time to slow down.
Video link is still in the original post... but here it is again just in case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOOsqGGjdg
The picture that was on my "ticket" (which isn't a speeding ticket, its classified as a "parking" aka REVENUE ticket for the City of Seattle), shows me about 10 feet in front of the 20 MPH sign.
I checked the distance from the sign tonight, it's about 180 feet from absolute FIRST visibility.
The formula for MPH into feet per second is (mph) * 1.466666. At 30 miles per hour (the normal posted speed limit, you are going 44 feet per second. This gives you roughly FOUR SECONDS to see the sign, process that you are in danger of going too fast, apply the breaks, and slow by 10 miles per hour.
That is if you SEE the sign in the first place, which is AFTER the turn (not on a straight away), shaving at least a couple seconds off that reaction time.
You BET I'm taking my video to court and showing the distances and reaction times. West Seattle is getting ripped off, this isn't about school safety, this is about REVENUE and GREED.
By the way, I could easily get out of this ticket:
http://bancams.com/get-the-facts/
However, I care to make a point and get better visibility about this so that others aren't bullied into a BS "violation". I've contested the ticket and will report how it goes in court.
Two seconds reaction time is ridiculous and DANGEROUS.
dhg
Member Profile
I know an attorney who will fight these things for you. It may be no cheaper than the ticket but the more these things are fought, the less attractive they are to the city as revenue generators.
John Kannin, kanninlaw.com, 574-0202
Thanks in advance for reporting how it goes in court. I hope you get out of the fine. I am all for making school zones more safe, however, it appears the city needs to approach this Fauntleroy location a little better. Currently, it's a gotcha type of set up.
Step One is to stop treating the speed limit as "Absolute Minimum Required Speed" and treat it instead as it was intended: "Maximum Allowable Speed".
Step Two is to ease off the gas when you see the first School Zone ahead sign. Let's see... it's a weekday and, though I don't know the actual hours that school is in session, 8AM to 4PM sure seems plausible. Maybe I should back off a bit.
Now, if you see the blinking lights, you are traveling slower and can easily reach the designated maximum speed through the school zone. From what I've been reading, if you go past the sign at 24-25 mph, you won't be getting a ticket. Slowing from 28 to 24 is not difficult at all. And you'll have added, at most, 5-10 seconds to your journey.
There is no doubt that this, and the other camera on 35th, is purely about revenue generation. If it was about safety, they would follow the lead of other jurisdictions and add a narrow “school zone” sign to the center of the roadway.
There are no blinking lights on the first school zone sign, and it doesn't exactly scream out at you. In fact it looks like a parking rules sign, more than a school zone sign. The second ACTUAL flashing light is hidden around a corner until way too late.
If they really were interested in protecting the children there would be a couple of lights strung out over the street with blinking lights at least a quarter mile up the road in either direction warning motorists that it was a school speed zone in session.
One great way to fight this - and this is NOT my idea, is to ALWAYS drive about 15 MPH through ANY school zone at ANY time.
After all, the signs do say - "or if children are present."
No sympathy. You'd be required to go from 30 to a dead stop if there were a ped in the crosswalk, which is signed visibly prior to seeing the flashing light.
dobro
Member Profile
Likewise, no sympathy. Slow down, get off your damn phone, pay attention to your driving and obey the traffic laws.Don't endanger your own life and others (especially children in a school zone) by speeding or not paying attention to traffic signs. And when you do mess up, quit whining and pay your fine. Try to do better next time. (Rant over).
I just checked, when coming around that corner, the reaction time to the sidewalk is pretty much nil as well. And if you advocate that it's okay to have 2 seconds to SLAM on your brakes (with traffic likely behind you) as a safety measure for pedestrians OR a school zone, you are nuts.
I'm not whining, it's clear as day this new program is 1) dangerous, 2) highway robbery, 3) not filling it's designated intent (which supposedly is keeping people safe, however, if it's revenue as the intent, it's working wonderfully), 4) not in line with many of the other school zones I've seen which are effective which have plenty of warning WAY WAY WAY prior to the actual school zone being in sight.
I have no sympathy with your apparent inability to see the facts for what they are, or your inability to see that speaking up is part of your civic duty if you feel there is something wrong. I don't mean that disrespectfully, however, I think your comments to me were.
dobro
Member Profile
"...advocate that it's okay to have 2 seconds to SLAM on your brakes (with traffic likely behind you) as a safety measure for pedestrians OR a school zone, you are nuts."
If you are driving at or below the speed limit and paying attention you can slow down without endangering anyone. As to whether I'm nuts, well, that's another question altogether.
dobro --
:)
However, I think the video I took shows that there are mere seconds to slow down, if you look, I even did an equation with the video as proof of the decision and slow time. It's not safe. It's dangerous. And it needs to be fixed.
Wow. You got caught speeding. Your argument is ridiculous in view of the fact you're required by law to yield to any ped at any crosswalk, signed or unsigned, regardless of the posted limit. All the kiddie physics formulas in the world don't change your "guilt." I prefer that my "civic duty" stand on behalf of peds not getting slammed into because people don't know how to drive. I've been very consistent in that. In fact, I'm kinda feelin' the call to let the city know the program seems to be working. And to be clear, don't need your sympathy--last time I had a moving violation I paid it promptly in full and learned to be more conscientious.
Welcome to WSB nerolabs :) Hope you have thick skin.
It would be interesting to see the same video when the lights are flashing and your vehicle is at speed to confirm the timing. Your vehicle is at the first sign at 33 seconds speeding up to 30 MPH. It appears that the light pole may become visible at the 39 second mark but definitely visible by the 40 mark. Your vehicle then reaches the camera pole at 45 seconds. So, based on this video, one has at least five seconds between the first sign (if one is travelling at 30 MPH) and the point the flashers become visible and then another five seconds until the camera pole is reached. Arguing that one can not slow down from 30 MPH to 20 MPH in ten seconds is going to be difficult at best.
Watching the video, the first school zone ahead sign is VERY visible. Are flashing lights required on ALL traffic signs in order for drivers to heed them? I sure hope not. Pay attention and slow down.
You stated in the video that you live in the neighborhood. You know there's a school coming up. You know that its a weekday and school might be in session. With all that AND two very visible school zone signs, there is no reason to get a ticket. Slow down!
You stated that you got a ticket for going 32mph in the school zone. The non-school zone speed limit on that road is 30mph. That means one of two things:
1) You were traveling MUCH faster than the normal speed limit when you saw the flashing lights and started slowing down to only 32mph at the sign.
or
2) You were completely oblivious to both of the school zone signs and didn't slow down at all for the school zone.
In either case, you most definitely deserve the ticket. Take responsibility for your actions. Stop making silly excuses. Pay the ticket. Pay attention and SLOW DOWN!
You keep talking about having to slow down from 30mph to 20mph and waiting until the very last moment to start that process. As I pointed out before, the speed limit is the MAXIMUM speed allowed, not the minimum required. There's nothing that says you must maintain 30mph or more until you see the flashing lights. Try taking your foot off the gas when you see the first (clearly visible) school zone sign. Now you already have a more reasonable starting point. You also won't get a ticket if you're traveling 25mph or less. It's not hard to slow from 30mph to 20mph in 10 seconds. It's even easier to slow from 28mph to 24mph in 4 seconds.
If you think it's too hard to reduce speed for the school zone or to let someone cross the road in the crosswalk, there's a very easy solution. SLOW DOWN!
Huindekmi:
After reading a lot of people's advice, yesterday I started driving 15 miles per hour or under through the school zone, at all times, day or night, just to be SAFE.
So if you see a guy SLOWING WAY DOWN, that's me! I don't want to get assraped with another $189 ticket, nor do I want to hurt any children, nor do I want to pose any sort of danger for having to break too fast.
Thanks everyone for your advice, and I think the solution is perfectly acceptable.
LOL on the A.R. thing.
There are a few different ways to react to this sort of situation:
A) Act like a jerk: continue driving faster than the posted speed limits while disregarding the safety of your fellow citizens.
B) Act like a baby: throw a hissyfit over something you did wrong, then overreact and try to punish everyone else for your own mistake.
C) Act like an adult: take responsibility for your actions, pay the well-deserved fine, then learn from the experience and start driving in a reasonable manner within the confines of the law.
Personally, I'd choose C.
Also, don't shoot video and drive at the same time. ;)
Kidding aside - if anything, other than just revenue generation, the $189 fine is making a few more people aware of the school zones through the publicity that it's producing.
Huindekmi, is it your belief that citizens are not entitled to their day in court?
Let's say you're the judge in this case. Would you address the appellant (nerolabs) with terms like "baby," "jerk," and "hissyfit"?
What do you suppose would happen with this case if you did that?
Citizens are allowed their day in court.
And if I were the judge in this case, seeing the facts that the accused made no real effort to slow down for the school zone, I would most certainly levy the maximum fine against him.
And if the accused used terms like "assrape" to describe a speeding ticket that he most certainly deserved, or if the accused then started yelling that he was going to react to this deserved fine by driving in a manner specifically designed to annoy his fellow citizens... yes, I would describe the behavior as a hissyfit.
But thanks for asking.
Attention advertisers! You too can reach this prime demographic.
HelperMonkey
Member Profile
I drive through this school zone every day at various times of day. I have yet to see ONE child at this school zone. The nearest entrance to the school is a block up the street. That being said, I was always careful to go the speed limit though there because I would frequently see the officer there in the little SUV with the camera. When they put in the big radar cameras I was going through the first morning they were activated, going 20 mph. FLASH FLASH! I thought, oh boy - if they got me I am going to contest that. Sure enough, I got a warning letter stating that I was going 25. I called the company listed - not in Seattle, by the way - to contest it even though it wasn't a ticket. I stated that I knew how fast I was going, saw the flashes and figured there had been a mistake, maybe they were still calibrating. Nope. She then blatantly lied to me and told me there were sensors in the road to measure speed...this is simply not true, and when I called her on it she hemmed and hawed like crazy - she knew she was lying and knew I knew too. This is just a revenue grab by the city, pure and simple, and the people running it are not even affiliated with the city or police department. Now I go 15mph through there every morning, no more, no less. Regardless of everything else, I am not going to give them any reason to get my $$.
The thing about this location is the speed goes from a legal 35 to 20 where as, school zones are usually in a 25 zone so it's faster/easier to slow down. People aren't thinking of school zones in 35 mph zones because they historically have not been there. I'm all for school safety but this one is in a bad place and I predict it will get removed. It's hard not to think this is a money grab.
There seem to be some misconceptions about the new school speed zone policy.
1) "You only have to slow down to 25 mph."
–No. The enforceable speed limit is 20 mph, not 25 mph. No city official has said that you WON'T receive a ticket if you're going just 1 mph over. In the OLG thread, Monsieur Velo Nut reports that he got a ticket for going 24 mph.
2) "Posted speed limits are maximums, not minimums."
–Yes and no. Yes, technically true. But speed limits are set with the assumption that ALL drivers will go at or about the speed limit, with some (or most) going slightly over and a few going slightly under.
You can legally drive 50 mph on a 70 mph freeway, but if you do that you are creating an unsafe condition, because you are forcing the stream of traffic to flow around you, just as if you were at a dead stop in the middle of a 20 mph street.
Traffic safety engineers will tell you that there are more accidents when traffic is flowing at widely varying speeds than when traffic is all travelling at the same speed (regardless of what that speed is.)
This variable rate-of-speed problem is the main reason why these moving-target school zones in 35 mph traffic are so vexing, and why the City needs to make sure drivers know when the school zone is in force and that they have plenty of warning that they approaching it.
You want school kids to be safe and avoid accidents? Great. Me too! So what's the best way to do that? Is it by socking some drivers with huge fines? Or is it by giving EVERY driver plenty of warning that there's a zone coming up?
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As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on whether drivers at Gatewood have enough warning. I'll drive by there myself and get back to you.
If I'm not back here by noon, it'll probably be because I'm in jail.
waterworld
Member Profile
WSRats: The speed limit on that stretch of Fauntleroy is not 35. It's 30. The reduction from 35 to 30 occurs, I believe, at the intersection of Fauntleroy and California, and it remains 30 all the way down to the ferry dock and beyond. So the school zone requires drivers to reduce their speed by only 10 MPH.
Also, I don't know where you get the idea that schools zones are usually in 25 MPH areas. That hasn't been what I have noticed at all, but perhaps I'm missing something.
Just clarifying my comment #29 .. 20 MPH school zones are usually on streets which have a 25 MPH limit. So, it's easier/faster to slow down to 20 from 25 vs from 35 to 20. As I also stated, it seems like slowing down to 20 MPH on 35 MPH roads (35th and Fauntleroy) is a new thing and not as reasonable/safe vs 20 MPH in a 25 MPH zone. I may be wrong but I believe DBP's traffic engineer analogy lends support to that point.
Thanks to the OP .. clearly not everyone appreciates your thoughts/feelings but whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate your effort.
Didn't hear from you by noon .. Hope you are ok DBP. :)
edit: I didn't know it was 30 on Fauntleroy. Thanks.
waterworld
Member Profile
WSRats: I see your point; I just want to make sure you got mine as well. In #29 and #32, you have said the speed limit on Fauntleroy (at the Gatewood School zone) is 35. It's not 35 -- it's 30.
(I wasn't rendering an opinion on the OP or his situation.)
I got your point and appreciate it, I didn't know about the 30 MPH zone, I typed the op comment in an edit which posted after your comment. Wasn't referring to you but to others early on like Huindekmi.
Thanks everyone.
I am enjoying the posts by those that are openly debating in a rational, open minded manner, instead of black and white "no sympathy" type posts that, still, in my opinion are close minded, unimaginative, condescending, and rude.
I will echo that I also have never seen a single child along that stretch of road. My son goes to school on Vashon, so I often am travelling that stretch during the school hours to pick up and drop off my son at school. I do appreciate it is adjacent on school grounds, so I do think it's smart to remind people by adding a school zone speed limit.
My main gripe is still 1) the lack of significant signaling and warning that other zones I've experienced have, 2) the dangerous curve where the reaction times - even if there is theoretically enough, it takes just one person coming around the turn behind me to not react to ME reacting and slowing down, 3) that I share this town with close minded people that come to this forum to remind me that I need to "take my whippings" without actually having an open minded debate with me on the facts, accuse me of "whining" and that I should just "shut up" and take it without actually acknowledge that at least some of the facts I posted merit discussion in an open minded way.
Hi gang. Your insipid reporter (DBP) here again.
I went down and watched traffic going southbound past the flashing lights from about 2:30 PM to 3:00 PM today (1/25/13) It's quite an interesting spot, actually. There's a lot going on there.
My main observations:
1) From driving this stretch today, I have to agree with nerolabs that the slow-down zone is too short. The flashing lights come up too quickly after that curve, and I didn't like that. I didn't feel comfortable with the amount of time I had to get the car to from 30+ to 20-. And I have a small, highly maneuverable car.
That said, I did not exactly have to stomp on the brakes either, and neither did any other driver I saw. I did, however, notice that following distances were generally too short in this section of Fauntleroy, and this caused some near misses when the driver in front slowed down suddenly and the driver behind wasn't expecting it. There WILL be some fender-benders there. Mark my word.
2) After I parked and started watching other cars, what I saw was that the speed zone was clearly working. Most cars slowed down to around 20 past the school. However, about 1 in 5 cars that were unimpeded by traffic* failed to slow down to 25 or below. No one sped by going over 30 during the time I was watching.
*Many drivers couldn't speed even if they had wanted to. Since traffic bunches up at the California junction three blocks north, cars tend to travel in convoys past the school. It's a one-lane road there, so cars can only go as fast as the lead car in the convoy. Add to this the fact that there's a stoplight at the crosswalk and you have traffic frequently grinding to a halt in front of the school anyway. Which is all to the good, right?
More observations (and photos) to come.
Thank you DBP! Awesome findings / post!
This shot is facing south from the parking strip, about 15 feet (as the car drives) in front of the flashing speed limit sign.
As you can see, there are obstructions that can keep you from noticing the sign easily. It's blocked by the camera pole at one point, and since parking is allowed right next to the sign, that's another distraction.
Then there's the sun in your eyes . . .
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This shot shows the camera angle, which seemed to me rather shallower than what nerolabs claimed it to be. He said his car was snapped about 10 feet in front of the 20 MPH sign (post #5), but for that to be true, the camera would have to snap pictures of cars as they're passing the camera pole itself. As you can see here, though, the camera's lens is pointed off to the south of the pole. I'm estimating that it won't get you until you've travelled at least 20 feet past the sign with the flashing lights -- which is still well before the crosswalk. (But I could be quite wrong about this. It's just guesstimating.)
Interestingly, I noticed a couple drivers going slowly through what they assumed was the camera zone, and then speeding up immediately after they'd left it. You know, I get there are some folks out there who'd pay a pretty penny to know just what spot these cameras ARE aimed at.
Here is a pic of where it snapped my picture. I can't quite tell how close it was that it clocked me, but that's when it took the picture. I assume it needed 10s of feet to gauge my speed.
On the "protecting the kiddies" issue . . .
I've got to agree with nero and Helper Monkey here. While, I was there watching, which was during the peak of the school pick-up time, there were NO children crossing at the crosswalk, with or without parents. (There were children crossing all right, but not at the crosswalk -- which I'll get to in a minute.)
Now I did see plenty of grown-ups crossing at the crosswalk. But they were all crossing there to get on or off the bus.
So the school zone is protecting grown-ups at the crosswalk, which is a good thing IMO. But on the other hand, pedestrians aren't entitled to their own speed zones, as far as I know. And certainly not zones with $189 fines.
*******************
Now then . . . as I was lurking about, a homeowner who lives in the area – one "Cathy B." – came out and asked me what I was doing.
"Don't be alarmed, citizen," I said. "I'm with the United Nations."
"Say, does this new school-zone thingie actually work?" I queried.
"Oh yes," she replied. "I like it. It's slowed traffic down here a lot."
"But I don't see any school kids crossing at the crosswalk."
"No. That's right. They never cross at the crosswalk. They all cross right here, in front of my house."
"I really used to worry about them before," she added. "It seemed like they were taking their life in their hands every time they dashed across. Now it's much better, 'cuz cars are going slower and drivers can see people crossing in time."
As we were speaking, a woman emerged from the school building with her little scholar in tow, walked down Frontenac to Fauntleroy, and darted across. They then got in their car and zipped off, and as they did, I noticed the woman yapping into a cell phone.
Ha-RUMPH!
******************************
Now before you knot your knickers, consider that this woman was actually trying to be a good parent by not idling her car in front of the school building on Frontenac, as per school policy.
More on that in a jiff.
"See those cars all piled up there outside the school on Frontenac?" Cathy B. said, pointing. "You ought to take a picture of that, too. That's a real problem."
"Oh yeah? Why?"
"Because they're not supposed to be there idling like that. They're waiting for their kids to come out, but when they stop on that side of the street it cuts traffic down to one lane there, because there's cars parked on the other side of the street too. The ferry traffic comes up that street, but it gets blocked up."
"Why can't parents use the school parking lot to pick up their kids?" I wondered.
"Oh, that's already full up."
****************
"Look, I understand why the parents do that," she said. "They've got little kids and they can't be walking 'em across Fauntleroy. But still, the school doesn't want 'em to park there. They've got signs up and everything: 'No idling.' But people still do it anyway."
*******************
Indeed. People aren't supposed to do LOTS of things, Cathy . . .
But they do them anyway.
Thanks D. The plot thickens!!!
By the way if I was going NORTH on Fauntleroy, where the warning sign and the light are in a straightaway, I wouldn't be as butthurt about all this, but I'd still make the case that most effective school zones I've seen there is a set of lights strung up across the road flashing asking people to slow down.
The big issue here, for me, is the curve (and with obstructions as DBP pointed out, thank you) in which you can't possibly see the flashing light without having a reaction time which might actually turn into a CHAIN-reaction with cars behind coming around the curve into a car that has slowed down without them seeing it, let alone that even though some people might think I'm whining with their unsympathetic apathy, it's still a $189 fine, which is highway robbery.
Aside from the obvious danger, I don't see how it's fair or in the spirit of what they want to accomplish to give people so little time to react to get "caught" with such a stiff fine.
One point in support of the argument that the signage is adequate is this from the WSB story on January 13:
"...from the first almost-two-weeks of ticketing by the Fauntleroy Way camera near Gatewood Elementary and three others elsewhere in the city; the West Seattle camera was responsible for 435, the lowest total, less than a third of the 1,510 tickets attributed to the camera near Thurgood Marshall Elementary."
While it's possible this is because WS drivers are so much more alert that drivers elsewhere in the city, I'm dubious about that; it seems more likely to me that the design of the roadway or the placement of the signage is better. (Neither the Times article nor the WSB article lists the tickets as a percentage of traffic passing the cameras, so it's also quite possible the lower numbers here just reflect less traffic.)
Anyway, I do have to say I find no difficulty slowing to the required 20 mph, as long as I'm paying attention, just by removing my foot from the gas--no braking required. But I am one of those silly people who tries to go 30 in a 30 mph zone.
dobro
Member Profile
Boy, you guys are really stretching...
"It's blocked by the camera pole at one point, and since parking is allowed right next to the sign, that's another distraction."
The photo is clearly taken from the grassy area of the parking strip, not the traffic lane where a car would be. Doesn't prove a thing. And the testimony from a neighborhood person would seem to indicate that the zone is working.
"Now it's much better, 'cuz cars are going slower and drivers can see people crossing in time."
I guess I'm one of the "closeminded" people that think like this- obey the traffic laws. When you don't (as you admit you didn't)and get caught, pay the piper and try to learn from it. And I guess you might put me in with the "unimaginative" thinkers who are not trying to "imagine" how I can get out of paying the fine for the law I broke. No matter how much imagination you can conjure up, if you were speeding you broke the law.According to your own statement "...thirty two miles per hour, while the light was flashing" you were not only over the school zone limit, you were over the normal 30 mph limit. Give it up, pal. I doubt the traffic magistrate is going to care much about your video unless you have a perfect driving record and this is your first infraction.
Trying to drag this one out into "Dog Poop in the Trash Can-the Sequel?"
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