Get ready, neighbors.... the narrowing of 99 will be a good (albeit not total)dry run for the mess we will get with the Tunnel.
If there was any decision they made to bring real estate values in West Seattle, that was it. It will be a total snarl of traffic that will extend to downtown and we will be the main sufferers!
Ok, sock it to me!
Genesee Hill
Member Profile
Oh, come on now. McGinn's surface/transit option will fix everything. You'll think every week day commute is Sunday when he takes care of business!
Amen. Hopefully people see what they really asked for. This is the bed you made, tunnel supporters. Anyone still chirping about only surface streets should be shutting up come Monday morning. If you can't get out of West Seattle on a Saturday without the viaduct, just imagine your new commute to work.
The good news is that houses in West Seattle will soon be on the market for $400 (or $300 and six chickens), so if you can afford to wait around, you can build your own little compound.
Hey, does this mean the Californians might move out? Silver lining!
quesera... yikes...
why yes.. we will see what the tunnel work will bring us tomorrow...
which i am sure will beat what we saw this weekend..
what would happen if the tunnel was demolished and there was no alternative option...
Zenguy
Member Profile
Yes, yes, yes...heard this all before. The year was 1981 and the old bridge was broke, four lanes were down to two and it was a headache winding through the Harbor Island maze for three years.
People survived, home values did not change and some people actually changed the way they commuted.
Whining about change does not make it any better and it will not go away.
Zenguy -- thank you for your words of wisdom. There will probably be 2-3 weeks of problems before people start to figure out alternate routes, schedules, etc. Traffic will still be heavier than before, but not the catastrophe some folks are bemoaning. Plus, there is other work going on, such as the First Ave ramps to the WSB and the bypasses on AK Way, that will open sooner and help relieve the pressure on the Viaduct. Anyone remember when I-5 was resurfaced??
quesera -- I'm guessing you've never driven in real CA traffic; most urban CAnians have worse traffic in their driveway.
Zenguy
Member Profile
Also the Sounders game was Sunday and that contributed A LOT to the traffic, I had to pick up my sister-in-law and nephew from pier 66...yuck!
ha! Try going from the Northwest Suburbs to downtown Chicago (or back), anytime between 6 am and 9 pm. Electronic tolling and 4-5 lanes each way, and you'll still spend 2 hours going 30 miles, assuming no major accidents or inclement weather.
But we are not Chicago and don't want to be. Why are we only talking about surface and the tunnel? What happened to the other alternatives?
Chrisma, that's funny. Brings back memories of that traffic into Chicago. And that traffic backs up for MILES. In good weather, all the time. And Boston, LA, New York, done them all and they can all be a NIGHTMARE. We've got it relatively easy at least.
This is temporary, when it's all said and done should be an improvement. The Boston project, much larger and widespread, while hardly perfect, has resulted in a much nicer situation for them. And what the hey, I wouldn't mind a little less of a stampede to build and fill condos in West Seattle for a while.
yikes..
because there are no other viable options left on the table...
i would wish for an environmental hitch that derails the tunnel if i thought the covered trench idea along the waterfront would prevail..
but even if it could make it past the political hurdles.. it's just plain too late to start over.
the viaduct is coming down. the only question is whether it comes down on it's own or we take it down.
personally i vote that we take it down.
the devastation a collapsed viaduct could cause is more than i want to contemplate.
Yikes, if you're against the tunnel, you are in favor of the surface street option. There are no other choices. Hopefully people will figure that out when it comes time to vote.
Hold on just a g-damn minute there, folks!! We've only been studying this problem for 10 calendar years. Why, that's just a day and a half in SEATTLE TIME.
Blamed if I'm gonna let a cabal of evil developers and corrupt city officials railroad me. Nothing at all should be done until every Who in Whoville has had a chance to weigh in on this issue. Twice.
And I want options. Many more options. At a minimum, we should be considering these alternatives to a deep-bore tunnel:
1) Shallow-bore tunnel
2) Medium-bore tunnel
3) Half tunnel / half transit
4) Half trench / half tunnel / half poodle
5) Sky tunnel
6) Roman aqueduct
7) Floating viaduct
8) Viagra duct
9) New ferry route from West Seattle to Ballard
10) Jet packs
Or maybe we should just let The Stranger Editorial Board tell us what to think. Yeah. The Stranger always seems to know the right thing to do. No matter how many times they change their mind, they're still right.
maplesyrup
Member Profile
So what happened to the mess? I made it downtown this morning in 12 minutes.
DP: Sky Tunnel...I like it.
I am generally a pessimist, and would love to be proven wrong. However, it is my bet that the afternoon commute will be worse SB than the morning commute. I have observed that people are more flexible in the morning commute but everyone wants to leave work between 4:30 and 6:00. I am planning on the Water Taxi today, so I will have an opportunity to look east at the Viaduct as the WT docks...
I vote for the Roman Aquaduct!
bsmomma
Member Profile
I am soooooo confused about the viaduct.... Are they rebuilding it now? And then when the Tunnel is done, tearing it down?
DP, you are normally the voice of reason here, but I have questions about your option list. Please clarify for me.
#1,2,3 have merit, so we must discard, real solutions and politics do not mix.
#2.5 should be totally bored.
#4 3 halves don't make a whole (hole) except in Hockey, please clarify.
#5 Sky tunnel, I tried to dig one today, and I got dirt in my eyes. This could be a big L&I problem
#6 Not enough toga's for everyone to wear, but an opportunity for big banking to get federal aid to support small business. Needs more review.
#7 will get in the way of the sometimes operating water taxi. Needs more research.
#8 will keep more people home and off the road, but could result in population explosion in West Seattle.
#9 Ballard drivers commuting through West Seattle will slow down the Admiral and 35 speedway. Plus, dragging seat belts will create more potholes.
#10 Jet Packs? Really? The solution has to be a transporter system like they had on Star Trek.
After being gone from the Seattle/WA area for 7 years, I realize many of these solutions jeopardize the careers of many politicians;
Wait for it,,,,
Funding feasability studies.
DP -- you forgot the monorail tunnel, unless that is what you meant by Sky Tunnel. BTW, I believe the Federal Transit Admin must approve and define the concept of any such public transportation options before we can even discuss them; I will have to report you.
bsmomma -- no, the viaduct is not being rebuilt yet. The state has to select the 'final option' and finish the environmental impact process before starting construction of whatever (new viaduct, shallow or deep-boring tunnel or nothing) will replace the viaduct. The work that is going on now is to improve the south approach to the viaduct/tunnel/nothing section; they will be adding on/off ramps to the stadium area. There is also a lot of other road improvement work in the SoDo area to improve freight access (i.e. letting them go up and over train tracks) and to rebuild the Spokane Street/WS Bridges (low and high) corridor.
It is really hard to track all this cuz there are so many gov't agencies involved and each has their own web site(s). This is the main site for the viaduct:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/
Here's a map of the SoDo projects:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Map.htm
and lastly, here's the city's SoDo traffic update page:
To all the doomsaying over-reactionists: the sky did not fall.
maplesyrup
Member Profile
I went downtown and back in the morning. No problems.
I went to Interbay and back in the evening. No problems.
i want a bridge to nowhere...
there are days when i think that would be an ideal destination
redblack
Member Profile
it's clear that the general public - outside of policy wonks - really don't have a clue about how we got here, or what a political sham the process was. it's also clear that some people don't care about knowing what's happening or why, but they're eager to gripe a blue streak when they're delayed by traffic.
who determined that there are no other viable viaduct replacement options? and when?
the tunnel is a snapshot of the true seattle process: corruption, deception, and numbers-fudging. after all, that's how we got - not one, but two! - downtown stadiums in the worst of all possible locations.
and no monorail.
you've been lied to. again. by people who claim to "know better."
I drove the viaduct yesterday and it was a bit slow, but fine. It's only one lane and just a portion of the viaduct length. Definitely not a dry run for the tunnel!
I thought there was a high road option?
redblack
Member Profile
yikes: you want a dry run for when the tunnel is being bored? shift all of that viaduct traffic to the skinny little ramps by qwest field, which will accommodate one lane in each direction.
that will be the through route from 2013 until 2016.
i say tear down AWV forthwith, and let's get cracking on a sensible replacement through route coupled with surface/transit fixes.
we can have both for less than the price of the DBT.
@redblack. I was just on the wsdot web site and they say two lanes open throughout. What is your source for the one lane scenario?
redblack
Member Profile
hoffanimal: my source is the two ramps themselves.
next time you drive that way, try picturing sharing either ramp with a metro bus.
I'll take a look but I still find your claim that they will be one lane in each direction dubious; the plan calls for two lanes. Your opinion that the look skinny is noted.
Ah Chicago traffic! But nothing like a few years in Seattle to make you miss the machine politics!!
http://wsdot.wa.gov/projects/viaduct/simulations/
It does look like that "somehow" in 2012 the on and off ramps are two lane each way - not sure how that will work.
redblack
Member Profile
i detect the faint whiff of evasive bullshite from WSDOT. nowhere in their plans does it say that those ramps will be widened to accommodate two lanes.
i say we implement the surface/transit plan, then tear down the viaduct forthwith and build a new through route. one that doesn't cross a fault line 200 feet below sea level, interfere with the federal government's property, or potentially undermine the 100-year-old BNSF/amtrak tunnel.
and one that is fully funded.
btw, WSDOT's crews are kicking a$$ on the new atlantic street overpass for the new main line 99. i was stunned this afternoon when i saw that about a quarter of that stretch is ready for decking.
so, WSDOT laborers/rod busters/form carpenters/operators/piledrivers, if no one has told you today, you guys rock.
redblack
Member Profile
hey, and by the way, this is no way, shape, or form a dry run for the tunnel.
eliminate the on/off ramps at colubia/seneca and western/elliott/belltown, and dump downtown-bound traffic onto the pioneer square street grid. then cut both directions of the remaining viaduct to two lanes.
oh, and smack a $4 toll onto SR 99 traffic at battery street tunnel southbound and qwest field northbound.
then, and only then, will the new southern mile/"leave the central waterfront AWV standing until 2016" plan even remotely resemble what traffic will look like with a DBT to replace mainline 99.
DBT is a bad idea, people.
and mayor mcginn is right - unequivocally - to ask questions on our behalves. after all, while SR 99 is a state highway, it primarily serves king county from des moines to shoreline, and a lot of us west-siders rely on it.
redblack, you're not providing a complete picture of the entire scope of the work related to the Viaduct replacement. There has been a lot of other work going on to help redistribute traffic in the SoDo area ... the 4th Ave off-ramp from the WSBridge being a prime example. All the work in the Royal Brougham area to keep freight moving and therefore keep cars moving. When Alaskan Way street level is rebuilt will be connections to Elliott and Western. Not having cars dumped into the middle of downtown at Seneca will vastly improve travel reliability on First and Second, esp. when a ferry disgorges at nearby Colman Dock or there is a game at one of the stadii. Not having Viaduct-bound traffic on Columbia blocking Fifth thru First will also improve traffic flow. And all this (and more) would need to be done if the surface alternative were chosen.
Is the tunnel the best idea? In my opinion, yes, for three reasons:
1) it still provides two lanes in each direction that the surface option won't provide, as I understand it. What happens to all that traffic you are so worried about?; Improved public transit, including the dead mono(tonous)rail wouldn't put a dent in reducing the traffic as there is too much commercial traffic. That's not and never will be a commuting corridor from suburban 'bedroom' communities (similar to I-90, SR-520, etc.) Improving bus service from nearby neighborhoods such as WS would help some. Moving some WS routes, esp. expresses, into the tunnel via the E-3 busway to the south portal would help too.
2) we can reclaim the waterfront and generate new economic growth and recreational opportunities while maintaining Alaskan Way as a viable 2- to 4-lane arterial;
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/After-the-viaduct-New-waterfront-vision-unveiled-1387743.php
3) most of the tunnel can be consructed while the Viaduct remains in place, which can't be done with the cut-and-cover tunnel or the replacement viaduct (which also may end up with tolls and fewer lanes if built.)
Only time will tell ... as a very wise person (not me) mentioned in another thread ... yes, things will change ... for the 'better' for some and for the 'worse' for others ... and life will go on and most of us will adjust quite well.
btw, you keep complaining about the 'secret' process that was used to select the preferred option:
'How was agreement reached on the viaduct's central waterfront replacement?'
'Agreement was reached after an intensive public outreach effort. A 29-member Stakeholder Advisory Committee, which provided feedback on replacement options, met 16 times, and a majority asked that a bored tunnel replacement be considered further. Ten public meetings and more than 85 community briefings were also held. Comments from the public covered a range of topics, focusing on preserving capacity for the future and opening up Seattle’s waterfront.'
redblack
Member Profile
metrognome: i fully appreciate and applaud the efforts by SDOT to improve access to and flow through the downtown street grid. those improvements should have been made regardless, especially the (WSDOT) king street exit/entrance from/to 99 before any central waterfront mile replacement option is pursued.
regarding freight, consider that trucks from ballard and interbay will have to traverse queen anne via mercer street to get to the north DBT portal near lake union, or continue down a waterfront that will be subject to seawall replacement construction. how does that improve mobility for freight, and how will the new mercer street handle the traffic once carried by 15th NW/elliott/western? and once freight gets that far, why wouldn't truckers avoid the 99 toll and keep going another mile to I-5?
similarly, once spokane street access to I-5 and other north-south routes are complete, i predict freight will avoid 99 like the plague.
other replacement options could allow the western/elliott exit/entrance to be maintained, and make a new 99 more useful.
i fully agree with your sentiments about "reclaiming" the waterfront, though, and i believe a large portion should be public space, and that commercial and private development should be subject to strict setback rules. we, the people, can develop property too, you know.
but leaving the viaduct in place until 2016 - especially with reduced access - is a risky gamble. and frankly, i think it's a red herring, because traffic is still going to suck while DBT is being bored - maybe worse than if the viaduct was removed. a recent study determined that surface/transit improvements without a replacement for 99 would handle traffic with modest increases in drive times.
DBT also delays seawall construction until after the viaduct is demolished and removed.
lastly, that same "stakeholders" committee found in 2006 that the DBT was the most expensive and least feasible of the 8 scenarios provided by WSDOT. the advisory committee was just that, and ultimately, the decision fell to three entities: chris gregoire, WSDOT, and greg nickels were in agreement that DBT was the way to go, and ultimately, that's how we got here.
yes, time will tell. i think the final EIS for DBT comes out in june. and it looks like we'll find out what seattleites thinks of the DBT cost and process at the ballot box.
nuni
Member Profile
Of course it was "fine". There wasn't an accident or Mariner's game to slow everything down even further, nor was there rain. It was nice all week long. Next week will be interesting.
maude
Member Profile
It wasn't fine yesterday afternoon or this afternoon either. Backed up southbound just after exiting the Battery Street tunnel. And then slow going to Qwest Field. And then suddenly everyone was doing 55 MPH.
Do you have any videos about this....? :D
You must log in to post.
All contents copyright 2012, A Drink of Water and a Story Interactive. Here's how to contact us.
No photo reuse without permission.
Entries and comments feeds. ^Top^
westseattleblog
West Seattle Blog
West Seattle Blog