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Dr. George Tiller Assassinated on his way to church

Started 2 years ago by charlabob
Latest reply from JoB

charlabob
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Dr. George Tiller, a long-time target of rightwing hate-mongers in this country, was asassinated as he walked into his Kansas church this morning. As usual, the groups which painted targets on his back, deplored the killing.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/index.html

His women's health clinic provided rare late-term abortions along with other services. That made him the enemy and when fighting him in court failed, other means were used.

He was acquitted on 19 counts of murder earlier this year and was in the news again recently when the right attempted to use him as an excuse to reject Governor Sebelius' confirmation as Health and Human Services secretary.

If you think the right's rhetoric of hate is not dangerous; if you laugh at Limbaugh and his clones, think again.

This is not an intellectual excercise; this is a war that has not ended.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
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Wow. War? Am I possibly going to be drafted?

One nutjob decided to commit murder today and should be prosecuted for doing so. I don't think a logical person that is religious would commit murder especially in a church.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Drafting you...now wouldn't that be fun...

one nut job influenced by? It will be interesting to see who this man is who committed this crime.. If he's a "nutjob", do we then not prosecute him, because, after all, he didn't know what he was doing? He knew...and did it anyway..in a church, to make the most impact on the news. Calculated...just my opinion, of course.

and, unfortunatly, there are many who use their religion to "justify" their "hatred" of people who are pro-choice, , of doctors like this doctor who are working within the law.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

TheHouse...

when a right wing activist kills an abortion doctor, they are a nut-job.

when a left wing activist brings a billy club along to a security detail at a polling place and does nothing more than hold the club ... they are a member of a known violent organization... and should have the law thrown at them.

hummm....

how far is it from the ugly faces at republican rallies shouting bigotry and racism and the hate filled anti-abortion websites to the nut job who killed Dr Tiller?

if a new organization keeps the name of an organization that once promoted violence as part of it's name.. then it can be assumed to be violent. Thus the New Black Panther Security organization is a "terrorist" organization.

but if an anti- abortion organization publishes the names and home addresses of doctors who do abortions... anyone using that information to assassinate that doctor is a nut job.

if a political party endorses violent rhetoric from it's members toward those of another race and/or those who support abortion rights... and someone follows that rhetoric to it's ugly conclusion.. they are a nut job.

must be nice to think you are so right in your beliefs that any ugliness done in the name of righteousness.. even murder... in support of those beliefs... has nothing to do with you.

and you wonder why some think this is a war?

Posted 2 years ago #
clark5080
Member Profile

I think it is highly likely the person who killed this Dr was acting on their own.
Could have been someone attached to a person who had an abortion at the clinic
and didn't want their girlfriend to get an abortion.
Could be someone from the right also who knows.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I am sure there are a lot more facts that will come out on this but to paint every person who disagrees with you on an issue as hate filled seems rather hate filled to me. The vast majority of us right or left should abhor this sort of action by anyone.

Posted 2 years ago #
c@lbob
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I dunno, I think jolly Olde England had a better deal. This website court and "lone nut" executioner lack the warm, family atmosphere of a trial by ordeal.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
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clark5080...just so there is no misunderstanding...we do abhor it..it should never happen. But we all also know that there are people celebrating today because of this act by this person. How sad.

Again we ask..who ARE these people? I'll refer you to the thread "Green grow the lilacs" posted on here just recently.

we sit and shake our head...

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Clark5080..

it is highly likely that the person who did this acted on their own.

But they likely didn't learn that abortion doctors are killers on their own and they likely didn't learn where he lives and where he goes to church on their own. Someone told him that this doctor was a target and told him where to find him.

Those who create the climate of hate are as responsible as those who act on that hate.

from the link above...

" On its Web site, Operation Rescue refers to Tiller as a "monster" who has "been able to get away with murder." And Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, who is no longer affiliated with the group, called Tiller "a mass murderer."

"We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God," Terry said in a written statement. "

all this while the group condemned the act as cowardly.

Terry's concern? That abortion rights people would use this murder to influence the Obama administration...

and his comment about the man.. that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face god.. in spite of the fact that he was shot outside his place of worship?

Did Terry or those who support that kind of rhetoric pull the trigger? no.

Is it likely that the rhetoric used influenced someone who did? yes.

Is it likely that the kind of rhetoric he is using now will incite some other lost soul to murder another doctor? yes.

"We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God," ... not that someone killed him but that he didn't have time to repent what he did that was so wrong... there is something very wrong with this kind of arrogance spoken in the name of God or of justice.

This is not what Christianity teaches...

I suspect that Dr Tiller was far more ready to meet his maker than are those who preached against him. Anyone supporting that kind of hate filled rhetoric ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves... and on their knees asking for forgiveness.

It amazes me that those who use the words personal responsibility as part of their political platform take so little personal responsibility for the hate filled rhetoric they preach or the consequences when their rhetoric incites others to violence.

Somehow i don't think this is what those who honestly feel abortion is wrong had in mind...

but this is who has taken over their cause.. and unless people with integrity speak up.. this will be what they support.

I keep waiting for decent people to stand up and say that this isn't right... and that winning this way defeats the purpose of the fight.

Will this death be too much to stomach? maybe? I have a heavy heart.. but i still have hope.

Posted 2 years ago #
c@lbob
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Lone nut, eh, well, let's look at the record:

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida fatally shot by Michael Frederick Griffin. On the previous Sunday, at a service attended by protest organizers and participants, Griffin reportedly asked the congregation to pray for Gunn's soul.

"He asked that the congregation pray, and asked that we would agree with him that Dr. Gunn would give his life to Jesus Christ," said John Burt, an organizer of today's protest and a lay preacher at Whitfield Assembly of God Church.

"He wanted him to stop doing things the Bible says is wrong and start doing what the Bible says was right," Burt told reporters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/gunn.htm

June 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside of another facility in Pensacola. The assailant, Paul Hill, became the first person in the United States to be executed for killing an abortion provider. Hill graduated from Belhaven College and Reformed Theological Seminary. Following his ordination in 1984, Hill became a Presbyterian minister. He was excommunicated in 1993 following a number of nationally televised appearances, in which he claimed to be the new national spokesperson for abortionist killers, revealing himself to be a fanatical pro-life activist, with connections to the Army of God.

December 30, 1994: Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts by John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International.

October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. The killer was James Kopp, born in Pasadena, California and raised Lutheran, but later converted to Catholicism. Kopp started providing support to anti-abortion groups after his girlfriend underwent an abortion, and used his technical abilities to create special locks that protesters then used on abortion clinic doors.

These guys were all well connected to anti-abortion groups.

Posted 2 years ago #
Trick
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I wonder if he'll be waterboarded to find who he is affiliatiated with?

wait, that's just foreign terrorists.....

Posted 2 years ago #
SpeakLoud
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Catlbob:
Thank you.

Posted 2 years ago #
c@lbob
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SpeakLoud,

De nada

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
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Actually I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

If the pro-life crowd really does believe that an abortion is killing of a person, why would they not want to stop those who perform the procedure??

If you knew a person that was going to mass murder a crowd ahead of time, would you not try stop that person by any means necessary??

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
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jamminj..if the pro-life people consider all life sacred,even a 2 week old fetus, why would they ever, ever, ever think of doing something like this? Or is one life a little less sacred than another? Please explain that to me...

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

jamminj...

isn't that a good description of vigilante justice?

the problem with vigilante justice is that it often has more to do with emotional manipulation than fact.

if you don't like a law, you work to get it changed.. you don't kill people who believe in the law.

unless of course you are willing to agree that anyone who decides you should die should be able to kill you tomorrow... for whatever reason they believe makes sense.

no trial.. no martyrdom... no publicity.

Put that way it doesn't make so much sense... does it?

Posted 2 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Actually, I have to agree with JamminJ - I, too, am surprised it doesn't happen more often. (Though the attempts certainly do.) That's why I've argued for years to get Operation Rescue and its cohorts designated as domestic terrorist organizations.

OR took down their web site about 15 minutes after a suspect was arrested. Obviously they don't know about cache.

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
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JanS - the sacrifice of one for many. If you had the chance to kill hitler before his atrocities, would you not??

JoB - to the pro-life movement, the law has failed them. Their belief is that abortion is mass murder. Law's have failed to protect the innocent in their eyes.

Posted 2 years ago #
Ashley
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This is an awful day for those who loved him and cherished him. I will always value a woman's right to choose.

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
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Here is one pro-life persons response, which is what I believe many also share the same thoughts:

"I can’t help but to follow the logic. “Doctor” Tiller is committing late-term abortions, which by any sane person’s calculation is infanticide. This is murder. Through perversion of the law, this is permitted, despite it flying the face of the history of civilization. This has been tolerated for two decades, and nothing has happened to stop the killing. He would have continued to commit this crime.

I can’t escape the conclusion that killing Tiller was the right thing to do. I am uncomfortable with this conclusion because it’s dangerous. But nevertheless, it was the ethical thing to do. Tiller would have continued to take numerous lives. Nothing was going to stop him. So someone did stop him. And now fewer lives will be taken.

We celebrate the breaking the laws every time the media canonizes Rosa Parks. She broke the law. There is no question of that. The question is whether it was the ethical thing to do (it was.) We celebrate the Nazi resistance, we celebrate the Tiananmen Square uprising. I’m sure those were all illegal actions, yet were unquestionably the moral things to do. So how would killing a killer, when all options are exhausted, not also be the right thing to do?

You have to wonder if the reason why we have a legal system is in order to steal the oxygen from moral vigilantism. You have to wonder if the legal system breaks down whether vigilantism, when all other options fail, becomes a moral imperative."

http://www.redstate.com/mr_ed/2009/05/31/breaking-kansas-abortionist-shot-killed-at-church/#comment-145

Posted 2 years ago #
datamuse
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Most of the follow-up comments to that response seem to disagree.

Me, I'm just boggled that this individual chose to compare Rosa Parks to a murderer. (They don't seem to know the difference between morality and ethics either. Or history.)

Posted 2 years ago #
Cait
Member Profile

JamminJ I'm going to say this in the only way that won't result in my being kicking off of this blog forever: You had BETTER think TWICE before comparing women who have gotten abortions to Hitler. That's about the most ignorant thing I've ever heard from someone trying to make a point.

Posted 2 years ago #
HMC Rich
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Let me get this straight. What it seems to boil down to is right wingers kill abortion doctors and left wingers kill presidents. The "evidence" tends to "seem" that way.

I and many others will not allow you to denigrate millions of people for such a heinous act. There are no winners in this. I am appalled.

This was a horrible act. This, or any killing, is not natural. You can blame the right all you want but this person was horribly misguided. This is not how the abortion issue should be decided.

To kill a person whom you think is a killer is idiotic and wrong. There is no defense for this person. This is a sad day.

I may fervently disagree with abortion but for now it is the law of the land. It is legal. Anyone who is for or against it has a right to speak out. Anyone who commits a crime such as this deserves to be locked up in a Supermax prison forever to go crazy.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
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Abortion is one of the most touchy subjects out there and I can already tell that passions are running high. To boil this particular thread down, a man was killed today and what he does for a living is irrelevant.

He was murdered and murder is definitely against the law, therefore the person that committed the crime should be punished.

It was wrong of the person in post #1 to make the assumption that the person who committed the murder was a "right winger". Perhaps the doctor had just gotten into an argument on the freeway and it was "road rage". You and I don't know at this moment. And even if it was a "right winger", you don't know if they had any affiliation with any groups (or Rush Limbaugh).

Now if you want to debate the ethics or morality of abortion then let's start another thread. I'm sure that will be a delightful conversation.

Posted 2 years ago #
JanS
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HMC Rich...while we may disagree on some things, we agree on what should happen to this despicable person, and anyone else who deems to do the same kind of thing. Abortion IS legal...and those who oppose it have absolutely no right to take the law into their hands.If all life is precious, then all life is precious...they don't get to pick and choose who should live and who should die.

And..JAMMINJ...you keep "quoting" others...now tell us your personal feelings...or have you already? By the way..it would have not been my place, nor yours, to take Hitler's life, to take Saddam Hussein's life, or anyone else. That puts us on their level. I can't say that I would never take a life, but that would have to be in dire circumstances where my life was immediately threatened.

Posted 2 years ago #
charlabob
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Actually, the OP (moi) did not claim the killer was a right winger. It claimed that Tiller had long been the target of right wingers and that it was likely the rhetoric of the right had helped to motivate the killer.

I actually have no interest in debating the morality and ethics of abortion. That train left long ago. But, so we don't risk losing the edifice to a more compatible blog, I will start such a thread later unless someone else does. :-)

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

TheHouse...

a suspect has been arrested... a suspect who has been making threats against Dr Tiller for years with complete immunity.

Catlbob called it.. this is just one more person who fits the profile of abortion doctor killers and who has been spewing his hate filled messages on the internet for years.

He doesn't appear to be a republican.. but the freedman are definately what many would call right wing nut jobs.

jamminj...

i would have a lot more sympathy with those who believe that abortion is murder if those same people were willing to assume some responsibility for the life of the children who are not aborted... or offer any assistance to the mothers who make the difficult choice to bring their children to term.

Unfortunately, the same people who think the murder of abortion doctors is justified are all for ending all entitlement programs.. including but not limited to nutrition and medical programs for pregnant women.

this isn't about the rights of unborn children.. it's about power... the power of one group of people to force their belief system on another group of people.. to hold them accountable...

often while forcing their own daughters into teen marriages or whisking them off for secret surgical procedures.

As far as i am concerned, unless those who oppose abortion are willing to take responsibility for the lives they save by denying a woman who decides that abortion is the best option for herself and her baby that choice... their opinion doesn't mean much..

and before you ask.. i earned the right to my opinion by giving my child up for adoption over 40 years ago. I made the choice and paid a heavy price... and although our story has turned out well.. i now know my grandchildren and greatgrandchild... this is not a price i would insist any other woman pay.

there is not justification for this murder.

Posted 2 years ago #
Traci
Member Profile

This reminds me of the movie Palindromes, it was definitely an "only see it once" movie.

My heart goes out to Dr. Tiller's loved ones, and I have very little opinion or argument about the circumstances of his murder. It's so sad.

Posted 2 years ago #
FullTilt
Member Profile

The people that did this to the doctor are the same people who throw acid into the face of school girls in Afghanistan. Fundamentalists are the same world over, no matter what "god" they worship.

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
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"By the way..it would have not been my place, nor yours, to take Hitler's life, to take Saddam Hussein's life, or anyone else."

No, not my place... but in the face of such evil, would you not in the least consider all the lives you can save by taking this one life?

And I myself am NOT comparing hitler to those who chose abortion, but many feel/argue that abortion is mass murder. While hitler was engaging in genocide, many argue that these doctors are engaging in infanticide.

Posted 2 years ago #
mom2soren
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Those who kill for their cause are domestic terrorists.

Abortion is NOT equivalent to this act, despite any philosophical disagreements pro-legal and anti-legal abortion proponents may have. Anyone who sympathizes with the shooter has a serious screw loose.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
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mom2soren...

well said.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
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The O'Reilly factor...

a compendium of his broadcasts concerning Dr Tilly

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/bill-oreilly-crusaded-aga_n_209665.html

If this isn't evidence that the spoken word has power, i don't know what is...

the murder of Dr Tilly is the "logical" conclusion of this kind of rhetoric.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheHouse
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I didn't hear anyone in those videos advocating Dr. Tillers murder.

And if you don't call partial birth abortions, "killing babies" then what is it?

Posted 2 years ago #
charlabob
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I don't call them partial birth abortions; I call them third trimester terminations of pregnancy. The right wing, which long ago substituted framing for logic, came up with the term and the sheeple in the right wing media and congress just went along with it.

Most of the procedures in the Wichita clinic were not third trimester abortions. Kansas grand juries and courts acquitted Tiller (or did not find reason to indict) in their long-standing court battle. When the courts failed them, their executioners took over.

Examples: a woman whose fetus had a malignant tumor that would have killed the mother as well

A 9-1/2 year-old child who had been raped by her father, grandfather, and brother

A couple whose fetus had no brain

Dr. Tiller's team counseled people on adoption and facilitated a number of private adoptions. Some of the "good" people of Kansas began an effort to ban adoptions by single or gay people because one child was adopted by two men.

Rational people want to make abortion safe, legal, and rare. Irrational people want to outlaw abortion and cut back on every program that facilitates the raising of healthy born children.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
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i don't think of third trimester abortions as murder. I think of them as one of the most difficult decisions any woman and her family has to face.

You may call partial birth abortions murder but you also state that no-one has a right to medical care.

logic would indicate that you think it is ok to kill the fetus by denying them medical care if their parent's can't pay...

but murder to terminate the pregnancy to save the life of the mother and limit the suffering of the child once it is born.

Put that way that logic sounds pretty darn ruthless doesn't it...

I am giving you the benefit of doubt as a human being by assuming you don't think of it that way... but that is how it works out.

this is why i say the abortion conversation has little do with the welfare of the terminated fetus and everything to do with attempting to control the options available to those who will ultimately have to assume the responsibility for the unterminated pregnancy.

you can't have things both ways.

you can't insist the pregnancy is carried to term without being willing to assume some responsibility for the child produced.

You can't uphold the rationalization for murder while abhorring the murderer... who simply followed the rhetoric to it's extreme conclusion.

I call the continued physical threats, bodily harm and malicious prosecutions that Dr Tilly endured malicious harassment.

I call the execution of Dr Tilly murder... with no extenuating circumstances.

And yes, i hold those who preached hate against this individual responsible for creating the circumstances that led to his murder.

It really is too bad there is no way to legally prosecute them for their culpability... but that doesn't lessen their responsibility.

Posted 2 years ago #
datamuse
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I've read a ton of articles over the past two days with every conceivable take on Dr. Tiller's murder. This is one of the better ones I've seen on the implications for women.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

datamuse..

thank you for posting this article...

as always.. there is a huge disconnect between the reality of what was practiced at Dr Tilly's clinic and the perception perpetuated by right to life pundits.

Posted 2 years ago #
HMC Rich
Member Profile

Regarding post 34. Words have meaning and power. They can be ignored but when they go too far they need to be objected to.

To call a large group "executioners" is going beyond normal debating terms. Isn't this discussion about people going too far? Isn't this the type of message we do not want to send?

I know feelings get inflamed. I would just ask that the rhetoric be toned down a bit.

Pointing fingers does no good in this case unless it is at the wackos who perpetrate these crimes. I will admit there are right wing extremists. I lump them in with the left wing extremists. Wackos.

Also, not everyone who is against abortion is right wing. Many are afraid to say so because they get yelled at by Pro-Choicers. If all people could speak their minds then we wouldn't need Human Resources Departments. To class everyone on the right as right wing executioners or pro-life, and I think you would agree is wrong. I will clarify that a majority of right wingers are against abortion.

Also, most human beings regardless of political or religious background are also against murder.

Tiller performed abortions. He was hated by many. He was hailed by others. Here are stats of what violence has occurred against abortion clinics. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_violence.html

The people who committed these crimes and atrocities need to be convicted. They must follow the Rule of Law over any personal feelings. Anyone has the right to protest. But there has to be a point where it goes too far.

As JoB knows, I did adopt a child and will adopt another. There are many families who want children. There are a ton of forms and regulations that need to be taken care of. It is not an easy process and many of the children have baggage. Many do not but it is worth the risk.

Late Term abortion is what it is. Many 3rd trimester babies could survive with a little help.

Once you bring birth defects and other conditions into play, the question gets even murkier.

It is not an easy subject but what is easy is this. People should not commit violence against other people and what is legal. The only way to stop abortions is by speaking with people directly and changing their minds or striking down the federal law and let each state decide. Until then lock up all who commit crimes.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

HMCRich...

yes, many third trimester babies could live with help... but i suspect if you looked closely at this clinic, you would find that inmost cases either the mother or child wouldn't live without a whole lot of help... and maybe a miracle.

That was the conclusion of the latest legal proceeding against Tiller (sorry about misspells of his name. i am not having a good day).

There is no virtue in birthing a baby to watch it die in the first few hours or days or weeks or months of life... kept alive by increasingly invasive and painful medical procedures.

There is no virtue in sacrificing the mother so that the baby can live... unless that is the choice of the mother and the family that will take responsibility for that child.

Instead of assuming that this was a good doctor who was helping people with the most difficult decision of their life...

right to life organizations and advocates have assumed that he was a venal man who pounded out abortions for financial gain... and they spread that information as though it was the "gospel" truth... and all for the purposes of gaining political power.

I am sure they didn't look at this logically at all.. because he was not a rich man and there isn't enough profit to justify the continued harassment and physical danger to him, his family and his staff. If this was about money, he would have quit long ago. The image they created of this man and his work had nothing to do with truth.

Saying it is so, doesn't make it so. Telling a lie over and over doesn't make it truth. But it is profitable because makes some people believe... the only problem is that some people take that belief to the extreme... and in most cases even that is of political use.

Who is venal here?

I know you have strong Beliefs and you walk your talk ... you have taken responsibility for one of the displaced children and want another... baggage and all. I respect you more than i can say for that.

But you chide charlabob for escalating rhetoric.... while ignoring the escalating rhetoric that created this problem in the first place...

The Bill O'Reillys who have painted a picture of this doctor as some kind of monster that should be eliminated and literally made him a living target...

The right wing republicans who have made a political issue out of what should be a personal medical decision...

this is far too complicated a decision... if you understand that life alone is not enough... that the quality of life matters... to be left in the hands of someone who is using the issue for political profit.

it's time we thought more about the children and less about the fetus...

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
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"Many are afraid to say so because they get yelled at by Pro-Choicers."

Two very emotional sides, BUT for a pro-life advocate, verbal abuse is the extreme. For a pro-choice the extreme is what Tiller suffered, or at the very least, labeled a baby-killer.

IMO, for a pro-lifer, there is no room for discourse. An abortion is murder and there is no middle ground to even have a discussion.

When you have public figures and media members who claim that the likes of Tiller are baby killers, I'm still amazed this doesn't happen more often.

Some pro-lifers thoughts on Tillers death via Twitters:

http://carnalnation.com/content/7628/3/tweets-hate-crazy-right-twitters-about-murder-dr-tiller

"The left-wing nutjobs don't understand that Tiller the baby killer was not human. No human kills babies, only monsters. Good riddance"

Posted 2 years ago #
jamminj
Member Profile

"The Bill O'Reillys who have painted a picture of this doctor "

"O'Reilly likes to say, "destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000." He's guilty of "Nazi stuff," said O'Reilly on June 8, 2005"

"This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao's China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union," said O'Reilly on Nov. 9, 2006."

On June 12, 2007, he said, "Yes, I think we all know what this is. And if the state of Kansas doesn't stop this man, then anybody who prevents that from happening has blood on their hands as the governor does right now, Governor Sebelius."

With attitudes like this, how is a pro-choice person supposed to have any kind of reasonable discussion on abortions?

Posted 2 years ago #
c@lbob
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Tiller's Women's Health Care Services to resume normal operations next week. I hope that terrorist organizations like Operation Rescue will fail in their murderous attempt to deny health services to women in need.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1076521.html

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

we can hope...

my guess is that they will simply target the new doctor.

and we will hear how he is a monster and is hated...

because Bill O'Reilly and his like will tell us so.

some days i would so like to be wrong.

Posted 2 years ago #
HMC Rich
Member Profile

Catlbob just shot your argument down. I asked for moderation and what do I get?

"I hope that terrorist organizations like Operation Rescue will fail in their murderous attempt to deny health services to women in need."

Come on, hasn't there been enough hate?

I give stats showing how many crimes by idiots and freelance lunatics perform these heinous crimes. There are lunatics out there and they say and do many stupid things.

I would agree that many do not have all the facts. People have the right to say what they want. Will it help the debate? Probably not.

Don't make Tiller out to be a saint. He performed a procedure many would not. His murder, like most deaths, is a tragedy.

I will address this more when I have more time.

Posted 2 years ago #
Traci
Member Profile

I'm sick of all this rightie vs. leftie crap about abortion. What it boils down to is pretty personal, and it's a shame that both sides have mucked it up so much that the core issues are lost in political BS.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

HMCRich...

Were you aware that the person who is in custody for the murder of Dr Tiller was a frequent contributor to Operation Rescue?

It's time we started calling a spade a spade. We label any foreign organization that promotes violence against US citizens a terrorist organization. Why should this one be any different?

You will find their current website well scrubbed if it is back up yet. They pulled it immediately when they learned the identity of the suspect.

as someone put it.. it's too bad they didn't have better IT people.. apparently they overlooked the value of the cache.

As for Dr Tiller.. your problem with him appears to be that he was performing legal abortions. In other words, he evaluated each case and offered treatment that was consistent with US law.

Again, my bet is that if you reviewed his case file... case by case... unless you are anti-abortion under any circumstances at any time... and most of America isn't... you would find that what he performed was compassionate medical care.

You might even find yourself agreeing with the decisions of those families...

But it is so much easier to just call him a murderer and his death a tragedy as though calling him a murderer had nothing to do with his death.

The label that abortion activists gave Dr Tiller had everything to do with his death.

Reasonable people would realize that if Dr Tiller's practice held up to the legal challenges it faced... there is a high likelihood that the allegations made against him were false.

What happened to reason?

A minority of US citizens decided to take the law into their own hands when they were unable to change it and have effectively shut down all but a small number of abortion clinics. The fear of assassination, battery, vandalism, terrorism, harassment and the incredibly high insurance costs they have brought have shut down all other clinics that provided the kind of legal medical care Dr Tiller's clinic provided.

This is a tragedy all right, but the real tragedy is that otherwise reasonable people think it is ok to batter, vandalize, harass, terrorize and possibly even assassinate the doctors who provide legal abortions, their staffs and their families all because they have failed to convince a majority of Americans to change the law.

Pointing that out has nothing to do with hate... but a great deal to do with reason.. something i would dearly love to see re-emerge as part of our national psyche.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Traci...

i agree this has nothing to do with right or left politics...

but you couldn't convince Limbaugh or O'Reilly or any other republican pundit of that. They have defined the issue and used it as an emotional wedge to gain political power...

It's past time that all Americans told them to stop... including republicans.

We can let that kind of inflammatory rhetoric tear this nation apart or we can start talking about actual issues... where it turns out.. if you remove the rhetoric... there is a great deal of common ground...

Posted 2 years ago #
vincent
Member Profile

Hi! I don't have a uterus, but since I am more academically conservative than liberal, I believe people have individual freedoms that extend to what they do with their own bodies. That said, recently followed a link on the type of procedures that Dr Tiller provided people, and it was very informative.
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html
I really feel like people need to read the stories for themselves before they make judgments on what this Dr was doing.

Posted 2 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Vincent, thank you so much for providing this link. I suspect it's easier to judge when you don't have information. (That's true for most issues.)

IMNHO, abortion has becone a rightwing issue, but that never should have happened:

I am a veteran of the feminist and anti-vietnam-war and anti-death penalty movements. When Roe V Wade came down, it was a natural extension for many of us who really believed in life, without exception. The right saw an opportunity and pounced. Very quickly, it became an anti-woman issue. Right wing idealogues packaged abortion with all of their other issues -- and lost an opportunity to form any sort of coalition.

I believe they did that because the cynical men who ran the organizations didn't give a rat's a** about abortion (or about women or about life.) They wanted to build a base and they did.

A few sincere people became "feminists for life." I worked with them on making sure there were options to abortion. Meantime, the RTL folks were busy throwing fetuses at women entering health clinics, trying to keep dead people alive, and making sure no one in the center would come anywhere near them. (Blurring history, but the point is clear.)

It might surprise people to know that many liberals (or whatever perjorative you want to use) think the Roe V Wade decision was a mistake. If the Supremes had simply handed it back to the states, some states would now allowo safe and legal abortions and others would outlaw them.

At the same time RVW was coming up, another "women's right to privacy" case was moving up to the court. A woman in the army who became pregnant was told that she had to have an abortion or she would be kicked out of the army.

Think about how this issue would be framed now if the decision had been based on forcing abortion rather than permitting it. Except for court calendars, it could have been.

Operation Rescue has become a terrorist organization; its founder, Randall Terry, was openly gleeful when he was interviewed yesterday.

As long as we use this categorization to outlaw some freedom of speech and assembly, I will lobby to use it to outlaw Operation Rescue.

Posted 2 years ago #
c@lbob
Member Profile

HMC Rich said:

"Come on, hasn't there been enough hate?"

When the issue at hand involves someone practicing their profession within the law versus several groups of people who incite people to commit horrendous acts, the hate is coming from one corner, and it ain't those operating within the law.

Randall Terry is a domestic terrorist, not much different than Omar Abdel-Rahman, the so-called Blind Sheik of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. A determined prosecutor could make a case against Terry just as one did against Abdel-Rahman.

I reject they idea that standing up to a bully is hate. Operation Rescue can't win in politics, or in court, so they take their sustenance in inciting violence.

Posted 2 years ago #

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