West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

(62 posts)

Deep Bore Tunnel Public Forum Fri at the Market

Started 3 years ago by captainDave
Latest reply from JoB

captainDave
Member Profile

Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan to present the new “third option” for replacing of the Alaskan Way Viaduct to a public forum. Come join us on Friday, January 9th between 7:00 PM and 9:00 PM at the Top of the Market meeting room (93 Pike Street at the pig) in the heart of the Pike Place Market. This is a big deal. We may actually have a chance at solving one of Seattle’s most contentious transportation issues in recent years!

Seattle Tube proposes a twin tunnel under 6th Avenue with a new expressway to link I-90 to West Seattle. Cascadia proposes a single bore tunnel under 1st with an alignment to the existing 99 route. We believe either deep bore tunnel approach is better for Seattle than what is currently on the table. Come share your ideas and concerns.

It is your city. This is a unique situation where concerned citizens can triumph over special interests and half-hearted government efforts to solve a complex problem.

See our web site at http://www.SeattleTUBE.org for more info.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
Member Profile

I am for any tunnel option that has exits into downtown (otherwise, what is the point?) is not way out of line with other options and this one can even be done without interfering with current use of the Viaduct.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

if what i read is correct.. it will only take 12 years...

it will disrupt downtown traffic.. just not in the same places... but in places that may be of more concern to West Seattle residents who have found work around solutions to downtown gridlock utilizing 509 and SoDo.

also.. will the viaduct be ok for another 12 years without major work.. or more likely 14 or 15 by the time all the studies have been done?

Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan have a great marketing presentation..

but where is the science?

and why are they only including cost projections for their project.. when the cost projections for the viaduct replacement options include other waterfront area work that will still have to be publicly funded?

and last, they are presenting this as a new option.. but it is my impression that this has already been through a review process and was rejected... ???????

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

We do not believe that it will take 12 years to bore a tunnel. For instance, the twin bore transit tunnel through beacon hill only took a couple of years. Granted it is about half the length and about 30 ft in diameter vs 53'. We think it is probably more like a 4 to 5 year construction project.

My understanding is that viaduct must come down by 2012 regardless, as mandated recently by the Governor. So there may be a time period where Seattle will experience a traffic snarl. But those details have yet to be worked out.

Much has been studied already so repurposing what was learned probably should not take that much time (we hope). The science is ultimately funded by WSDOT. We are just an independent citizens group with a different approach to solving the problem. The science will prove one way or the other. We just want it to be equally evaluated as it holds many benefits that the other options lack.

The waterfront work will no longer be tied to transportation. That doesn't mean it goes away. It just gets looked at as one of the many independent issues the city deals with each year.

What was originally rejected in March 2007 was a cut and cover tunnel that presented a myriad of problems and a long construction period. The bored tunnel option is completely different process and in a different location alignment than the original trench tunnel proposal.

WSDOT admits that it severely padded recent figures when looking at a bored tunnel due to linking it with surface street and other unrelated costs.

Posted 3 years ago #
JenV
Member Profile

no offense, Capt Dave - but I would NEVER ride in a tunnel in downtown Seattle. The whole downtown area is fill, isn't it? What happens in an earthquake? I recognize that my chances on the Viaduct aren't great in an earthquake either...but I have often wondered about the tunnel option and whether it makes real sense. Any info you can provide in regard to possible tunnel failure in an earthquake would be appreciated.

Although, anything has to be better than the silly ass surface option being proposed. That will cripple West Seattle.

Posted 3 years ago #
mellaw6565
Member Profile

Independent Citizens Groups? Who provides your funding? Do you have any corporate or developer sponsors? Inquiring minds want to know.

It's clear that a tunnel provides more benefits to those interests (corp. & devel.) than individual citizens in W. Seattle.

Posted 3 years ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

Jen, since the bay area quake sandwiched so many cars, I ALWAYS think about that on the viaduct. I used to drive northbound (on top) daily, but rarely southbound. Silly perhaps, but the older that thing gets, the more I think about it. I'd rather have a chance by dropping the extra 20 feet than get crushed!

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

I get the worry about tunnel safety, given the fill, but here is something to contemplate, fwiw.

There is currently a tunnel (there are a number under Seattle) which is used, and has been used for many decades, by the trains to go under the city.

So, no tragic accidents in all of the years that that tunnel has been used every day, right under downtown Seattle. It was built MANY years ago in the solid clay soil. No worries. It has withstood all of the big earthquakes and it was built without modern engineering safety measures.

I find that knowledge very comforting, personally.

http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=4029

Posted 3 years ago #
wingme
Member Profile

captainDave...nice websites and well-written layman's descriptions of alternatives, but I too am waiting for answers to some of the above questions.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

WestSeattleDood..

the train tunnel was built when we still over engineered so things would last...

now we do a cost benefit analysis for acceptable failure:(

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

mellaw6565: No corporate funding at this time. just out of pocket so far.

JenV: Just the areas down near sea level are fill including the DoDo district. Most of the areas above 1st ave downtown are not fill. My understanding is that concrete lined bored tunnels are about the safest place to be in an earthquake. Lots of info online about it. Easy experiment: put an egg in a box of sand, then drop the box. Try the same thing without the box.

JoB: Today's structural concrete is actually much better than the old stuff primarily because they use a lot more reinforcement. Transportation infrastructures are built to higher standards today (unlike other products)

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

captaindave...

it's obvious you are not an engineer...

while it is true to say that today's structural concrete may be better than the old stuff per cubic inch... depending upon the application... because it is "better" we use a lot less of it... thus negating many of the advances in technology... but bringing in the project with a healthier profit.

In a way, we were safer with lesser materials and less knowledge.. because everything was overengineered due to the unknown risk.

Now that it is possible to calculate that risk.. there is a lot of pressure to cut costs... so you end up with projects that are safe within a reasonable margin of error....

Engineers are serious about making sure to the best of their ability that construction companies stay within that margin or error...

but you can't extrapolate the safety of a current project engineered and built by current standards using a project built and engineered under a totally different set of standards...

Posted 3 years ago #
villagegreen
Member Profile

JOB - So you're worried about the tunnel thru Beacon/Bacon Hill as well? No riding the light-rail for you?

Downtown is not built on fill and a deep bore tunnel under 6th Ave would be extremely safe. It would seem your chances of encountering a sudden demise are much greater each time you use the current viaduct (or cross California Ave at a cross-walk for that matter).

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

There is also a bored Third Avenue bus tunnel under downtown. That SHOULD have been light railed, but oops, somebody muffed that up royally back in the day. That was a fun bit of Seattle debacle history. As they say, anyhoooo...

There are two tunnels being tabled in these new rounds of developments which are DIFFERENT than what Seattle voters rejected as then costed and presented to them a couple of years ago, was it?

The 6th Ave is a two (maybe three) tunnel bore and the 1st Ave tunnel is a much cheaper, narrower bore.

Here's a link to an accurate article, from what I've been able to determine, from Dec. 31.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008575577_viaduct31m.html

This REALLY is getting momentum...I think in spite of the costs.

For me, it's been somewhat reassuring to note that the discussion the planners are having is also about tweaking access to downtown on the 1st Ave proposal. And, I THINK that applies to temporary route scenarios, as well as permanent.
But, I also think that is what they are furiously working on. Gregoire called a deadline of Jan 12, but let's hope that comes and goes till the hard-working peeps on this get it all together.

But, I REALLY wish we had a more extensive Ferry District already in place. Or, private companies would step it up and carpe the dang diem. If folks would just envision what Vancouver, BC has already successfully done and use that as our model to incorporate into capacity discussions, I think it would really be revolutionary as WELL as pragmatic.

Check these links out:
http://www.theaquabus.com/visitors.htm
http://www.granvilleislandferries.bc.ca/
http://www.translink.bc.ca/Transportation_Services/SeaBus/
http://www.hellobc.com/en-CA/TransportationMaps/TransportationModes/FerryTravel/Vancouver.htm

But, what do I know? Not so much. I could be mistaken...I've just been trying to get up to some level of being better informed since they announced the two crappy choices in Dec. It's like trying to wrassle an octopus just to grasp it all. I know I haven't.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

You know Captain Dave.. you shouldn't get a curious woman interested...

i started following links from your website.. i think maybe not the one you directed me to but the one i found by putting your organization in google.. to see who was backing this move...

this is what i found from the cascadia group...

http://www.cascadiaprospectus.org/2009/01/commissions_report_to_urge_tra.php

It seems that this group thinks the way to fund public infrastructure is to go back to a toll system.

so who likes the idea of a bored tunnel and direct access from West Seattle to I-90 with a toll system to pay for it?

and who likes that being the only alternative to getting through and around town other than I-5?

the best investigative advice i ever got was to follow the money... and the further i follow it the shakier this citizen initiative seems.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

villagegreen...

i didn't say the tunnel wouldn't be safe..

i said that using a tunnel engineered using differing standards from the one proposed to illustrate safety was not good science...

Nor is using the city planning docs on the sea wall good science..

something tells me that there is good science out there... and we don't need to rely on century old information...

so why are we being given such dated information in an aw shucks manner?

David Peprich, the founder of this organization is a designer and engineer. I suspect good information is available and he knows both how to interpret it and how to relay it... so i am sure that Captain Dave has access to current information.

Using century old information is just one way to play on our emotions.. to make this citizen initiative look like it actually comes from citizens..

not from a bunch of businesspeople with a financial investment in the outcome.

go through the links on their website... all that stuff on the right hand side is pretty interesting reading..

http://blog.seattletube.org/?cat=15

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

westseattledood...

yes,, i think you are right.. this is like trying to wrestle an octopus... too much ink in the way to see what i really happening...

someone is spending a significant amount of money to publicize this option.. and from the amount of recent news coverage there is an advertising or marketing firm involved...

does this sound to you like the kind of financial investment a few good joes with tools in the back of their pickups trying to get from West Seattle to the other side of town would make?

somehow, i don't buy it.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

What we were linked to by Captain Dave...

http://www.seattletube.org/

the job opportunity these "concerned citizens" posted...

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/wrg/962140832.html

Where i started following links... and where i think you should too if you want to be educated about this...

http://blog.seattletube.org/

now in all fairness,

i think CaptainDave did mention this blog somewhere in either a convestation here on the forum or on the Home page... when i mentioned my Geotech daughter.. but i haven't found his link to that blog...

If you follow those links like i did, you begin to wonder why Captain Dave chose to link us to a website that is little more than a marketing tool...

I am just saying that if we are going to have this conversation, we should look a little deeper to find out who stands to benefit... and how we will ultimately pay for this...

Thanks WestSeattleDood for making me curious enough to dig a little deeper....

this is definately not your average little neighborhood blog:)

Posted 3 years ago #
wingme
Member Profile

wow JoB you da wo-man! You certainly know how and where to go after it. I'm a fan...really!

Posted 3 years ago #
Bingley
Member Profile

These ideas are coming from concerned citizens who are donating a lot of their time to this - not paying some firm to do it for them. If you check out the plan proposed by Seattle Tube - it links you to at least one firm involved that is donating its time and office space for public meetings. A lot of this is done word of mouth - the media involves itself in things that are interesting to their audience, and this is a hot topic.

Posted 3 years ago #
villagegreen
Member Profile

I don't give a crap if this idea is coming from concerned citizens or companies standing to profit from it. Someone is going to profit from any option that is ultimately selected. That's how Capitalism works - nothing major gets done in this country unless someone stands to make money. Sometimes that sucks, but that's the way it is.

The only thing I care about is whether the tunnel will keep the current capacity and how it will affect people trying to get downtown from WS. Personally, since I don't work downtown, I'm much more interested in how easily I'll be able to get to Ballard or Green Lake. This seems like the best solution I've heard. Obviously, we'll need to know exactly how it will be paid for, but it doesn't seem to be that much more expensive than the other (non)options.

Guess I just don't understand all the dissmisive comments right off the bat. More answers need to be provided, but that goes for any solution as far as I'm concerned. I'm more interested in hearing what they have to say rather than trying to turn this post into some intellectual debunking exercise.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

CaptainDave openly posted his blog link several days ago while trying to introduce this idea to us. He didn't get very far because he was immediately argued with, accused of having all sorts of nefarious motives, and told he didn't know what he was talking about. All around nice reception for a new poster.

****I have been promoting a bored tunnel for two years. Hence the web site and graphics are two years old. I don't have a lot of money to hire web designers to change it as plans are upgraded. However, you can see current info on our blog which is linked on the home page (or just go to http://blog.seattletube.org****

I don't understand why it's so difficult to simply listen and consider taking him at face value. At least he's attempting to contribute, unlike some of us sitting here passing judgment.

He also never claimed to have all the answers or all the figures. He is proposing this idea be evaluated to produce answers. And someone is always going to benefit with every plan. If you want to throw away ideas on that basis, might as well leave America.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JT..... I have an issue with people who present an alternative plan without giving you all of the information you need to make a decision...

in fact, to access the real information even on the blog site.. "strategic initiatives" .. you need an access code... it's there on a need to know basis.. and john Q apparently doesn't have a need to know.

bingley...... there is a big difference between businesses and business organizations donating time and space to a project and characterizing those businesses and business organizations as just concerned citizens...

and it is evasive at best not to name those businesses when asked directly where the money for this promotion is coming from.

as for this being a big story.. someone did a remarkable job of promoting it starting the last week of december.. when all those news stories that are linked appeared.

and as intended.. that buzz seems to have created a postponment that gives the organization more time for an option that even Captain Dave admits needs a more thorough review.. pushing the entire project out how much longer?

having tried to attract media attention to public service events and issues myself, i can attest to the fact that it takes a lot more than a couple of phone calls by volunteers to get that kind of attention.. it takes professional marketing. word of mouth takes a little longer to create that kind of attention in that many sources that fast...

I have no doubt we will find that the expertise that created the news buzz was either donated or paid for as a donation from one of those listed businesses...

but that does put a different spin on this grass roots citizen thing that is being promoted here...

villagegreen.... do you really want this option enough to pay for it every time you use it?

Because in the first line of Captain Dave's first post you will find "Citizens for Seattle Tube and Cascadia plan"

and you should really follow the link to them i provided above... that prospectus is crucial to understanding the push for this plan...

if you don't think making this a toll option is in your best interests... you might not be so hot for this plan...

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

why talk about the seawall and insist that it be included when talking about cost?

by following the links from the website... http://blog.seattletube.org/

i easily accessed this WSDOT information...

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/viaductSeawall.htm

which makes it clear that regardless of whether we do work on the viaduct or we choose a bored tunnel option on the east side of downtown.. the seawall problem isn't going to solve itself...

so much for the reassuring info from the century old city plans that Captain Dave referred to when the subject came up...

in fact, one thing that isn't mentioned in that link is that the process of dismantling the viaduct is likely to create enough trauma to further destabilize the seawall... we're back to that bowl full of jelly thing.. and dropping the viaduct is likely to make it shake shake shake...

Maybe that isn't something we should just ignore...

and we haven't even mentioned the possible seismic impact of the boring process on the hill directly above that seawall....

geotechnical engineering much more than simple plumbing...

and we ignore it in an earthquake zone at our peril..

Posted 3 years ago #
TD West Seattle
Member Profile

JoB (and others concerned):

I am one of the very few people currently involved with the Seattle Tube project and can tell you for certain that your concerns about where the initiative is coming from, its ability to generate press coverage, etc., while certainly understandable, are completely unfounded. We have been working for weeks on this simply because we're not convinced of the two 'short list' alternatives' success and decided we should do whatever we could to promote a better option. We have not received a dime for our time, nor has anyone else for theirs. As for PR, Dave set up the blog himself and you can credit the graphics to yours truly (glad to see they were noticed). We got media coverage by emailing various news groups with an alternative solution to a very hot topic, and they were interested.

I believe much of the confusion about the idea comes from the fact that our study is unfunded. We don't have the financial resources to self-fund a full study of all the issues involved (traffic, roadway interchanges, etc.), nor to hire a PR firm to assist in getting the public's attention, and as a result we have sought the input of Cascadia and others with experience in tunnel boring technology in order to assess the idea's viability. Their input has been minimal but helpful, and to date their main comment on it is that it should be studied to the level that the other major options were studied. That is our primary goal - to get the governor, mayor, and others to consider an alternative that doesn't doom us to a decade of downtown gridlock while we turn the viaduct into a lower-capacity bottleneck.

More on Cascadia if you're still concerned: The only reason this idea is being linked to any of Cascadia's earlier work in terms of the public forum is that we're trying to gain support for further study of a tunnel, and the governor recently commented about Cascadia's earlier ideas for bored tunnels being the preferred alternative if financially feasible. The Seattle Tube is a different way of looking at the tunnel, boring through more predictable subsurface conditions. Our open meeting on Friday will therefore allow time for Cascadia to talk about bored tunnel technology, financial implications as they see them, etc., and will also include a discussion of the Seattle Tube proposal in its current form. If you don't like tolls and you feel that is what Cascadia will propose, show up and tell them you don't like it. We expect that our tube idea will be modified by attendees' input (in fact we hope so) so that when we meet with Ron Judd, the governor's top aid for the viaduct issue, on the 19th we have a plan that has greater public support.

Let me repeat: no one is making any money off of this, in fact quite the opposite! We are looking for input ASAP. Open forums are being held all week this week at Grace Architects' office at 1927 Post Alley in the Market, and a larger forum is scheduled for this Friday at Top of the Market (meet at the pig at 7PM). If you're a West Seattlite like me and are upset with the limited options being seriously considered at this time for a viaduct replacement please show up or give Grace a call at 206.788.4603.

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

Thank you so much TD West Seattle -

Appreciate you jumping in and clarifying. Really.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

the marketing guy... Dave Petrick founder of Citizens for Seattle Tube...

now he IS interesting...

http://www.pdsinnovation.com/bio.php

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

TD West Seattle...

thanks for posting.. i am not trying to be dismissive...

i just think there is a whole lot of information that is being glossed over here that is really important to disclose...

all i did was go to the website and follow links from that website...

i have no doubt that there is no direct money making happening at this point.. but it wasn't too hard to find out where the marketing and political connections driving this come from with just a limited amount of research this afternoon.

And.. i have to say that i question the wisdom of spending more money and delaying the process further at the eleventh hour without some serious discussions of the implications of this that goes far beyond basic plumbing and century old engineering information.

I would guess that a breakdown on the geotechnical information you need to proceed could be had for a very limited amount of money from either of the top local geotechnical firms here in town since they have already studied most of the issues involved through working with other projects... and did work for the viaduct replacement assessments.

a less expensive option would be soliciting a volunteer.. i would bet that an advanced geotech engineering student at the University of Washington could do a search that would produce the basic information you need off public sources in a relatively small period of time...

This is a far more complicated issue than is being presented... And a far more expensive option as well.

Perhaps that is why the governor's office suggested a connection with Cascadia..

they have a plan in place that will pay for the work...

Posted 3 years ago #
Gina
Member Profile

The Battery St tunnel gets very deep puddles in it every time it rains. Deep enough to float a Volkswagen. If the city does not maintain that tunnel, I don't feel reassured that a deeper tunnel would be maintained.

Posted 3 years ago #
waterworld
Member Profile

So much has been posted here and in a related thread suggesting bias or a hidden financial agenda on the part of the Tube promoters. I think it's worth pointing out that one of the chief critics on the board, who comments that geotechnical information could easily be gotten from a local firm, has a family member in that business. My only point is that it's so easy to make these kinds of assumptions and so difficult to discern the reality.

Speaking for myself, I do have a lot of questions, and many concerns about costs, yet I nonetheless appreciate the addition of a completely different kind of option to the mix. If, as the promoters suggest, they lack answers to hard questions about costs and risks because they lack the funding to do the necessary studies, then time will (I hope quickly) help us vet the proposal.

A couple of things also seem clear. The seawall is a critical issue, regardless of what viaduct replacement option we adopt. While that can be budgeted elsewhere, the cost will not be eliminated by the Tube proposal. This is a neutral issue, though, since we pay for it regardless of what viaduct-replacement option we choose.

Also, I checked the USGS map of soils in the area, a huge file available at

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1252/of2005-1252.pdf

as well as a kind of crappy Seattle map of liquefaction zones, available at

http://www.seattle.gov/emergency_mgt/pdf/Shiva_11_Liquefaction_and_Slide_Areas.pdf

and it appears from both that the Tube path may be through liquefaction zones. As others have already mentioned, though, there are already two or three tunnels in the downtown area through these same geologic zones. For all I know, the soils issues are more of cost problem than a safety problem.

I'm far from being on board, but I have an open mind about it.

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

Waterworld: The Seattle Tube route appears to be north of the Seattle Fault Zone and east of the waterfront liquefaction zones. Also, I suspect liquefaction zones may not be as troublesome for modern bored tunnels since they are closer to being neutrally buoyant than above ground structures. - In other words, they may have a tendency to float upward rather than sink if anything. But I am not a geotech engineer. However, just think of the jellow the SF BART tunnel runs through and it has survived several earthquakes.

Thank you for posting those links.

Here is a link to the original shoreline of Elliot Bay (It is also a large file - You have to select the dot on the map for Elliot Bay and wait a while): http://riverhistory.ess.washington.edu/tsheets/framedex.htm

JoB: Regarding the finance issue. It is all grass roots funding so far. Actual cash out of pocket is about six bucks per month for the web hosting for the last two years. All the programing photography and graphics I did myself except for the great work that Grace Architects has recently contributed at no charge. It really did not take a whole lot of marketing work to get this in the media. As mater of fact, it was KIRO who recently approached me in mid December asking if I would do an interview on the Dori Monson Show. There is no well connected PR firm or deep pocket ad agency behind this. People just want to see a better solution than what's on the table now.

I first publicized the idea in an article I wrote for PugetSoundMagazine.com two years ago for which I am an editor. Puget Sound Magazine is dedicated to covering water centric news and local travel information. The viaduct issue has a direct impact on the Seattle waterfront and Seattle's relationship with Puget Sound. What was originally intended to be an inspiring article, has now developed into a movement though the encouragement of friends, neighbors and a few astute media folks browsing Google. I, along with many others living around the city stand to benefit if the viaduct is replaced with a bored tunnel for all the reasons I mention on the Seattle Tube web site. As you have found, I have been involved with many kinds of businesses over the years providing unique solutions to complex problems. However, the Seattle Tube project I started does not have a paying client at this time. You should think about coming to our scheduled public meetings and meet the people involved to hopefully dispel your suspicions of our efforts.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

CaptainDave...

thanks for speaking to us as adults...

Your article in PugetSoundMagazine.. which i occassionally read btw.. was two years ago...

if this option were a cost effective option for the city, why has it only grown legs now?

We have been given a mandate to find a short term solution to the viaduct replacement...

how do you expect a bored tunnel at least three times the length of the one for the light rail and bored in much more challenging conditions to be investigated, approved and built within that time frame?

When you think it will take less than 12 years.. are you thinking just construction or actual process from beginning to end.. since the time required for the investigation and approval process often exceeds the time required for construction?

at best, all this option will do for the traffic gridlock during construction that you are throwing up as a reason for investigating this will be to postpone the traffic gridlock while this is fought out politically and is or isn't constructed.

and then there is that ugly question that everyone seems to want to avoid.. how will we pay for this?

One of the factors narrowing the current replacement options to two was the need to pay the difference between what the governor has budgeted and the actual costs..

That is where Cascadia and their connections to the company constructing the light rail bored tunnel come in, isn't it... and their answer is tolls.

Ask those who live in West Seattle if they would like to pay a toll to drive from here to downtown every day... or to access I-90 quickly and conveniently..

barring some money falling from the federal sky and our governor deciding to spend it on this transportation project.. that is what it is going to take to finance a bored tunnel option.

i don't count on the federal money not having public tansportation strings tied to it.. and public transit doesn't appear to be one of the features of this proposal... it's all about how to move individuals in cars more quickly and efficiently...

I am not a conspiracy theorist.. far from it... but i do follow the money.. that is the business interests.. and the talent... that appears to be you...

and have a deep suspicion of anyone offering "simple" solutions to complex problems.

in the current financial climate, i would be far more inclined to back a tunnel option that gave us the added benefit of reinforcing the sea wall than one which would still create the same gridlock problems and leave us with the cost of the reinforcing seawall.

and that's before any geotechnical considerations... which will have to be faced regardless of which viaduct alternative is built.

We live in an earthquake zone... and clay is at best a bowl full of jelly during an earthquake...

Now.. putting one of those bored tunnels under the bay.. as they mostly did in San Francisco... might get traction:)

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

JoB: I have to go to work to pay the mortgage, but I will try to answer these questions sometime tonight to the best of my laymen's ability. Lots of good questions. Are you planning on coming to our public forum tomorrow night? We will have a couple of experts who can answer some of these questions better than I.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

CaptainDave...

i don't know...

nor am i sure i would welcome this burr under your saddle if i were you:)

we will see how i feel tomorrow.. if i am up to it i may attend... if only to meet you:)

btw.. welcome to the West Seattle Blog Forum...

Posted 3 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

KUOW had an interesting discussion of tunnel options on Weekday this morning: http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=16672

I have to admit I haven't followed thid closely; I have trouble dealing with the compulsive inability of Seattleites to "disagree and commit" so I assume whatever they decide this month will be re- and un-done many times before I drive through a tunnel or down a street. Having said that, I came away from the broadcast favoring the tunnel. (Much to my surprise).

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

charlabob.. thanks for posting this link.. i just finished listening to the broadcast and can see why you came away favoring the tunnel...

but i had real moment of disconnect when they talked about where the proposed tunnel would go.

According to this broadcast.. the deep bore tunnel option that is still under consideration would basically go under 1st and 2nd.. starting around King St Station and ending the other side of battery tunnel... and it does not appear to include egress to downtown Seattle...

On that option all but 30% of the possible route has deep core samples already.... and is projected to cost around 2 billion... and would cause minimal disruption of current traffic patterns... and thus minimal disruption to current businesses...

in comparison to the open trench tunnel option which would have basically shut down the waterfront for 10 years...

in the meantime, improvements to I-5 (mainly non-construction changes if i understood them correctly.. but possibly including closing the senaca st exit...) were projected to divert about 30% of the current viaduct load...

if i read things correctly, it seems we may be discussing two different proposals here...

So Captain Dave.. what gives?

Posted 3 years ago #
Huindekmi
Member Profile

The tunnel proposal has just as much egress to downtown Seattle as the elevated replacement that made the "final two".

Somewhere along the way, the vetting committee determined that an exit/entrance in SODO and another on one side or the other of the Battery Street Tunnel is more than enough.

Regardless of the solution implemented, we are assured to have less capacity and reduced access to downtown. <_<

Posted 3 years ago #
villagegreen
Member Profile

Huindekmi - that is exactly my understanding. None of the options have an exit at Seneca (or anywhere in the downtown core).

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

Folks might want to envision the inclusion of our new Ferry District in any discussions of capacity and access to not just downtown but on the Eastside too. That would be amazing to see that level of cooperation and leadership operating, however, wouldn't it also be amazing to see the Demonstration Routes stepped up a few years ahead of their originally proposed debut?

I think it would be friggin' fantabulous to include ferries immediately in a new "surface" scenario. Heck, if this much money is going to be spent toward a vision of a spectacular waterfront, then let's just bloody go for it across the board. We've lost the Monorail, it seems, so let's supplant it with a mosquito fleet. Now. While the momentum is there.

Find the money, docks and whatever else is needed before the cruise ships growth absorbs all the "motorized" carrying capacity, if you will, for sustainable transportation on the Sound. Though it does seem to me that the cruise ships on the Sound seem to be doing a good job of not discharging in the sound, or even within State waters.

If you haven't heard enough already, here are a few other sites to check out:

http://www.portseattle.org/seaport/cruise/
http://kingcountyferries.org/

I linked the Vancouver BC water transportation agencies that I was aware of on the post above. Maybe take a gander at those, as well as the above.

I realize none of what I say here on the forum matters to the Big Deciders, but who knows what the tipping point of an idea is, really?

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

About the downtown exit thing -

I saw one of the 1st Ave tunnel promoters on TV. He said not only will funding issues be addressed, but also that the exits can easily be reevaluated, paraphrasing his words. This was right after the decision, so don't hold me to verbatim.

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

JoB: I have tried to answer your questions below, but best to come to the meeting tomorrow for better clarification:

Why hasn't this idea been considered until now? I don't know exactly why a 6th avenue tunnel alignment has not been discussed. It might simply be that WSDOT is a reactionary bureaucracy doing what they were told to do - that is replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. They or anyone else was not told to look for other alignment possibilities outside the box. Sometimes, it is easier for an outsider to see possibilities since they are not aware of the bureaucratic boundaries.

How can it be studied and built in less than 12 years? - The big delays occur when so many disagree. If we can solve 90% of everyone's issues, than I believe it will go rather quickly. Like the narrows bridge, sound transit system, Brightwater tunnel, etc. If we have a clear collective vision and desire, it will happen faster. Why do you think the conditions are more challenging than the Sound Transit Tunnel? I am told the substrate conditions are similar.

How do we pay for it? I am far from a funding expert. But because of our 6th avenue alignment and potential to reduce traffic on I-5 along with our proposal to carry a rail line under the car decks, we stand a chance of obtaining funds from federal sources more than the waterfront option does. There is also the option for the city to sell or lease some of the waterfront property to offset some costs. I hate the idea of toll though.

Suspicions: Again, I nor any of my family has any financial ties or employment with any government agency, contractor, tunneling company, downtown property owner, cruise line or any other major corporate entity that would immensely benefit from influencing the viaduct decision. However, I am private citizen and not a politician, so it really should not matter anyway. You say that your daughter is an expert and discusses the seawall issue with you frequently? Is she employed by someone who has anything to do with the seawall? If so, it may appear that you have your own agenda here. :)

Gridlock: we are proposing that the existing viaduct remains in use until construction is completed. As you might remember, studies and plans were done to look at what it would take to reinforce the existing viaduct with external steal structures at a fraction of the cost of new construction. I have had discussions with the folks who worked on that project and they have convinced me that the viaduct can be kept safe to use for quite some time if necessary. It does NOT have the design flaws of the ill fated Cypress Viaduct that fell in the San Francisco earthquake.

Simple is a relative term: I am told that seven different government agencies need to coordinate to do anything on the waterfront before a project even starts - that dose not include the utility companies and railroad who also has certain rights on the waterfront. Any transportation infrastructure adaptation of this magnitude is complex compared to smaller scale projects, but in relative terms, boring a tunnel under 6th avenue seems to be a cake walk compared to all the issues along the waterfront. Our sixth avenue route is through dry, stable public land on the entire route.

Earthquake: Again, our high and dry" route is well above the water table and sediment along the waterfront and is not in a liquefaction zone as indicated on the seismic maps.

Seawall: again it is not a transportation concern if we tunnel under 6th avenue, therefor the city does not have to spend as much on it to make it secure for things like a bicycle and foot traffic.

Two Tunnels: Yes, there are two different alignments being discussed. Cascadia is talking about more of a compromise that can be sort of worked in after the surface street option is bought off on. The Cascadia tunnel is a single tube, 2-lane in each direction with a alignment on first or 2nd Ave and a connection somehow with the existing viaduct route. The Seattle Tube is a complete 6 lane + rail reroute of SR99 onto the 6th ave. right of way that solves other transportation problems too. Think of the Cascadia Tunnel as the "happy meal", and ours as the "whole enchilada". Either tunnel is better than the two options on the table and both will be discussed at tomorrows meeting.

Huindekmi: The ultimate rendition of the Seattle Tube 6th avenue tunnel would have an egress in the middle of downtown near Seneca. You will have to come to the meeting to learn more about that, but it is a very cool discovery made by a survey done by Grace Architects.

westseattledood: Totally agree with improving the ferry district and a renewal of the old Mosquito fleet runs, but that is probably a subject for another thread. I think vancouver has an excellent balance of recreational, transit , and port facilities along its shoreline. It was largely the inspiration for to spend time re-thinking Seattle's situation.

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

CaptainDave:

Can you speak to the "Expressway" concept in detail so that folks are introduced to that piece of the 6th Ave. scenario? I think that is what it was called - the hi-speed freeway proposed over 6th Ave which is specifically addressing the WS and Valley commuters, yes?

Where might the tolls go in all of this?

It's not been explicitly mentioned here yet. Details would be good.

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

Our proposed SoDo Expressway would extend from an intersection on the First Avenue rail yard bridge at Diagonal St. to just south of the I-90 ramps where it would descend down to the tunnel entrance. It would span over the West Seattle freeway (like 99) and remain at the same elevation until it cleared the new transit rail bridge (roughly the same elevation as I-5. Between the Sound Transit bridge and the tunnel, it would be about the same elevation as the West Seattle Freeway. There is about 100 feet of city right of way down 6th avenue south which is plenty of room for a up to six lanes + emergency lanes in a side by side configuration. However, engineers may consider a double deck structure also. 6th Avenue South would remain available under the structure.

We envision a northbound onramp off the eastbound west seattle freeway at the new 4th avenue exit planed by SDOT and a southbound off-ramp to the westbound lanes of the West Seattle Freeway. There is an article on our blog (blog.seattletube.org) about how we propose to integrate with the new west Seattle Freeway project now underway. The west seattle ramp to the SoDo expressway would be a "fly-over" which will allow higher speeds then the existing 99 loop ramp.

We also are proposing a full interchange at I-90 for both north and southbound directions. This is one of the key advantages of our plan. it will allow for West Seattle and Ballard traffic to access I-90 without getting on I-5. This should have the effect of reducing the I-5 bottleneck and the Mercer Mess.

The SoDo Expressway can be constructed with a cost efficient functional design with less regard to aesthetics than the waterfront expressway idea since it is situated in an industrial area.

Of course traffic engineers will need to determine weather 4 lanes or 6 lanes are needed to carry through-town and I-90 bound traffic, but initial findings appear to indicate that there is enough room to do all this largely within public lands.

The south end alignment of the SoDo Expressway to first avenue south works better than the existing SR99 route because there are less lights and no railroad crossings.

More details available at tomorrows public forum at the Market.

Posted 3 years ago #
westseattledood
Member Profile

Hmmm..lots of details CaptainDave, but ya' know schematics would definitely help for folks such as I. Well, maybe just me - who knows.

Has anybody supporting this or at Grace stepped up and put drawings online? Surely in it's conceptualization, drawings were made, yes?

Or link and mark up a google map, or something, eh?

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

westseattledood: Here is a pdf of the overall Seattle Tube alignment scheme.

http://seattleTube.org/blogContent/seattle%20tube%20-%20draft2_small.pdf

We have done lots of detail drawings, measurements and overlays on various sections of the route as a fit check so to speak. But we don't want to put off engineers who have much more knowledge of the rules and regulations regarding traffic structures. Our job we feel is to provide a strong system concept, but to allow for as much latitude as possible for the traffic, transit, geotech and other civil engineers to work out the details. Our goal is to get this on the table for an Environmental Impact Study along with the other potential tunnel alignment suggested by Cascadia.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

CaptainDave..

My daughter has been technically employed by the US govt for the past 4 years since that is who funded her initial PhD grant at Virginia Tech.

She is now technically employed by the state of Virginia since that is who is now funding her PhD grant at Virginia Tech.

She is working on deep soil mixing... and that work is being done in connection with The US Army Corp of Engineers for the levies in New Orleans. She is also doing contract work for the corp on a levy project that i think is being done in Alabama.

Her goal for her PhD project is to create a new simplified tool for field engineers trying to calculate the properties of deep soil in their projects. (ok.. that's a really really simplified picture of what she is trying to do...)

I have not named the geotech engineering company she worked for here or the one she worked for in Denver who now have an office here i think or the other two geotech engineering firms she spoke very highly of to avoid any conflict of interest.

Her only connection to them at present is a deep and abiding mutual respect, the friendship that grew out of that and a continuing interest in the science that makes our homes, bridges, freeways and dams safer.

At present, it is far more likely that she would be employed by the University than by one of those firms when and if she returns to Seattle... but at this point any talk about possible employment is just a wild guesstimate.

Sorry.. but i wanted to be sure you had full disclosure...

i'd publish her name too because i am really proud of her accomplishments and she googles really well.. but that would disclose the name of the engineering firm she worked for here.

You can find them.. and the other good goetechnical firms in the Seattle area by looking for the companies employed to do analysis for the viaduct replacement by WSDOT and SDOT. I am not sure.. but i think they were even employed on the light rail project.. i don't remember if they got any of the tunnel work.

My bias towards good geotech work is a desire to drive over bridges and through tunnels without worrying what will happen to that structure if an earthquake hits while i am there....

so yes, you could say i have a vested interest... the same one shared by everyone who uses those structures.

My daughter's dinnertime conversation only served to educate me about both the complexity of the issues and the need to look at the big picture...

is that full disclosure? it's certainly far more than most of the people reading this thread wanted to know ;(

btw.. i did like how you phrased your disclosure.. that you did not currently have a paying client on this project:)

and i gotta ask.. who paid for all that work you just mentioned in post 45. did grace architects donate their work for that? somehow i think that the donations for this go beyond the cost of a website ;~>

so what does full disclosure mean to you?

it doesn't really matter because i am not engaged in a pissing contest but a search for the kind of information that would let people make informed decisions...

What this city lacks is a comprehensive transit plan which includes public transit and roads... and in this city.. waterways.

While your tunnel proposal may or may not be a good proposal on it's own... it certainly does not speak to the whole...

And we are still left asking the million dollar question.. who will pay for this?

The governor's budget is 2.8 billion... total... which won't cover the cost of the 6th av tunnel project...

so where is the money going to come from for the second project linking west seattle to I-90... or the one linking to 100... those interchanges marked as possible on your diagram...

and I am not entirely sure i see how they are an improvement on the current direct route from west seattle to I-5 to I-90 once they too fill with traffic.

the best case scenario for the cost of the bored tunnel along the 1st av corridor is 2 billion... and as you have pointed out to us that tunnel is not nearly the breadth or scope of the tunnel proposed along 6th...

while i admit that the layered rail access might well qualify your project for inclusion when it comes to federal dollars... it's no guarantee..

and the "sweetener" you are throwing in for West Seattle isn't part of that project at all.

Nor does your project address the waterfront issues... or the seawall... which are both pressing concerns for the City of Seattle.

anyone want to go to that meeting tonight with me?

this could be entertaining ;)))))

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

JoB:

I am told that $2 billion for the first avenue tunnel alignment is a wrong number for comparison since it includes a range of unrelated issues. Cascadia's experts conclude that tunneling is $600 million per mile for boring a tunnel. This is a number consistent around the world with other tunnel projects using the same equipment. The first avenue Tunnel proposed by Cascadia is estimated to cost $1.2 billion as with the 6th avenue route if we do only one tube.

Both alignments are talking about using same diameter bore. it's just that we would like to see six lanes + 2 rail lines rather than just 4 lanes. But that is up to the engineers to figure out. According to extensive research work done by Cascadia regarding cost, a bored tunnel option is within the cost range of the other options. Best way to get a reality check on bored tunnel costs is to spend an evening reviewing TunnelBuilder.com They list all the active tunnel projects and costs around the world.

There are some who would like people to believe that bored tunnels are more expensive then they really are. For example, Frank Chops today apparently made a number of blatantly wrong statements to the press regarding the bored tunnel option - saying that it was turned down by voters (implying that it was the same as the cut-n-cover tunnel) and that it would be much more expensive than his waterfront viaduct shopping mall idea.

Grace Architects has done the work so far on a pro bono basis.

Look forward to meeting you (and anyone else) for a lively discussion this evening at Pike Place Market!

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

CaptainDave...

yes, the numbers for the bored tunel option do include other costs.. like the 30% of the proposed route that has not yet had deep core sampling.. and the cost of the environmental statement.. and .. and..

and of course there are the costs incurred evaluating the project...

Since the taxpayer ends up paying for all of those costs in the final bill.. such as the costs we will incur if you convince people to put enough pressure on the governor to evaluate your plan before making a decision... it's only fair to include them in the tab...

i will try to make it to the market tonight but am struggling with an eye condition.. so we will see.

Posted 3 years ago #
captainDave
Member Profile

JoB: The cost of getting it wrong would be devastating to the region. Seattle politicians have departed from the strategy of having a tax base reliant on self sustained industry to one that relies on escalating property values. I believe that this house of cards will fall when people can't get to work and businesses can't ship goods effectively.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

captaindave..

you just gave a cogent argument for making sure that we get the most benefit for our dollar...

if we were to go for a deep bore tunnel.. the one along 1st is substantially shorter.. and still goes from point a to point b...

At 600 million per mile, one would think every inch counts...

and if it is the same size.. could still carry the same amount of traffic and trains...

so.. one has to ask.. what is the advantage of drilling further to run this under 6th?

i was hoping for a report the meeting.. my eyes were too inflamed to drive...

did you get answers to the million dollar question.. how will we pay for this?

Posted 3 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.

All contents copyright 2012, A Drink of Water and a Story Interactive. Here's how to contact us.
No photo reuse without permission.
Entries and comments feeds. ^Top^