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Dear Self-Appointed Traffic Director, E. Bound Spokane St. Viaduct (8/3, 7:50 a)

Started 1 year ago by DaveB
Latest reply from kellym

DaveB
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I don’t know if you are a reader of the WSB forums, but I am posting this hoping that you are.

You decided to ride the middle of the two lanes and not let us pass. You motioned us over to the left with your thumb, then gave us a congratulatory clap when we got over (at the same point we would have anyway).

Traffic studies show that the most efficient way for drivers to behave when their lane ends is in the way I was attempting to, to drive to the end then merge, with each driver in the lane that isn’t ending letting one car. This has been mentioned multiple times in posts here related to the viaduct lane closure. It’s also discussed in great detail in the book “Traffic” by Tom Vanderbilt (http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785). In fact, I’d like to give you a copy of this book so you can read it for yourself. Just respond to this post, tell me the color and model of the car you were driving, and tell me some way to get it to you (I can drop it at a business that you frequent, mail it, hide it some place where you can pick it up, whatever works for you).

I was tempted to drop some passive-aggressive and mean comments into this post but decided not in order to keep the discussion civil; in short they all related to the fact that you acted like a selfish (and self-aggrandizing )ass. You created a problem, you did not solve one (as I can only assume you were thinking you were doing). Please worry about your own driving, not the driving of other people, especially those are driving in a manner that improves traffic flow and are not breaking any laws, both of which you were doing.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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DaveB, it wasn't me who blocked you, but . . . I do understand the psychology of people who do this. If they've been queued up in the exit lane for several minutes and here comes you, zipping right by them and merging in ahead of them "at the last minute," they are bound to think you're stealing a base on them (and everyone else behind them in line.)

I think you're probably right about the zipper technique being the most effective way to merge traffic, but until everyone adopts that technique, there are gonna be long queue-ups, and as long as there are long queue-ups, there are gonna be drivers who are very pissed to see you get in line ahead of them.

Another general note on the zipper technique:

I think the zipper works best when all lanes of traffic are moving at the same relatively slow speed—maybe 25 mph or under. When traffic's going faster than that in either lane, it increases the degree of skill required to merge. (God knows how the Blue Angels do it. Nerves of steel, I guess.)

Anyway, drivers in the right-hand eastbound lane of the Spokane Street Viaduct tend to speed, and when you add that to the already claustrophobic feel of the Viaduct, it tends to freak out the northbound mergers. So, rather than take a chance on missing the merge all together, or crashing, they get extra cautious and start to queue up. And once they do that, of course, it pretty much closes off the zipper technique as an option for everyone.

You know, DOT has actively discouraged using the zipper at this particular merge spot. Notice how they painted the double-wide "illegal to cross" line there, along with a sign that says, in effect, "If you can read this sign, you're too late to merge. See you in Portland."

;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
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This issue is almost as much a deadlock as the traffic jams at the newly closed lane. Frankly, until I read this and previous discussions of it, I thought it was really easy: line cutters were breaking the rules and should be discouragd. I went so far as to get very angry at the wusses who let them in.

I'm one of the people who gets in the "right" (working) lane as soon as I know which one it is. That keeps me from having to get furious at people like the bad me, who would count on cutting in later.

There are parts of the country (BAWSTON) where cutting in at the merge point could be seriously dangerous -- especially since, after you do that, you're typically stuck in traffic in front of the person who thinks you offended them. You can't just zip off into the night. I think that's actually where I learned to merge early and wait my turn -- when, instead of the middle finger, people started making their hands into imagiary guns, pointing them at me, and pulling the trigger.

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
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The zipper technique works great as long as traffic in both lanes is going the same speed and drivers in the lane being merged into leave enough space between them for merging cars to get in.

In my experience, this rarely happens.

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
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So if you know you're going to make a left turn 10 miles down the road, do you drive that entire distance in the left lane?

Posted 1 year ago #
mrhineh
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@DP DOT doesn't discourage the zipper technique with the double line at the NB I5 entrance, its to keep people from moving across two lanes to make a left. Thats not a zipper solution, its flat out poaching and was dangerous with 3 lanes of traffic trying to make lane chages at the same time/space.
BTW in Boston, making eye contact at a rotary or merge is a no-no. Just go!
IMHO, the folks dashing up to the front of the merge line are doing so for their own benefit, not to "ease the flow". Poachers!

Posted 1 year ago #
DaveB
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A few cars in front of my vehicle merged in the zipper fashion with no problems. I was traveling at a reasonable speed; faster than the left lane (but not by much) and slowing to match the other lane’s speed in anticipation of the merge.

DP: I disagree about worrying about reactions of other drivers when you aren't breaking any laws, are driving in a manner that is reasonable and better for the overall driving experience, and safe. There will always be angry drivers out there*.

mrhineh: I’ll disagree with you too. If drivers approaching the slowing traffic always chose the shorter line, then there’d be about the same number of cars in each lane. The lane capacity would be maximized, the wait would be shorter for everybody, and there’d be no worries about anyone “getting ahead.” Because many other drivers make a move that is worse for the flow of traffic (getting in the left lane early in this case), I don’t need to make the same poor decision.

---
*I was one in my younger days, and might have even performed a similar move to the other driver 15 or 20 years ago; my stress level on the road has gone way down since I quit worrying about other drivers who make choices (at least when they are legal) other than what I’d do in the same situation.

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
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I'm with you, Dave. If the lane's available for use, it should be used. That's why our roads have multiple lanes. Changing lanes too soon only makes the backup longer.

Posted 1 year ago #
Vanessa
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It's just amazing to me, that people can't figure out how to merge into traffic with each other. Drive nice, do the speed limit, don't tail-gate, fill up both lanes, and whoever called it the zipper merge, well, that's the ticket. Take a little of that testosterone off the gas pedal.

Posted 1 year ago #
WorldCitizen
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Here's another discussion....
http://westseattleblog.com/forum/topic/a-contentious-debate-when-to-merge

Posted 1 year ago #
Dunno
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I don't mean to hijack this thread, but wonder why
the work isn't being done 24/7. I saw nothing being done this past Sunday afternoon, above or below.
I've been in huge backups over the past two weeks and know many wasted gallons of gas, man hours, wear and tear on all vehicle (from starting and stopping) and tons of extra pollution is being caused by this closure.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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once the concrete to join the Spokane St. Viaduct w/ the new 4th Ave. off ramp, the concrete has to "cure" for 2 weeks. No one and no equipment will be on it for those 2 weeks, as it will weaken the concrete. That's why you see no one up top now. Concrete is poured and done, and curing. As far as below, on weekends, well, if you were a worker on this mess, wouldn't you want a day off every now and then?

Posted 1 year ago #
Julie
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If we could find a way to help every driver leave adequate, or even generous, distance between their car and that in front (which many don't seem to realize changes with speed), it would make not only this merge issue easier, but would reduce accidents, thus increasing throughput, and encourage fuel-efficient driving (reducing frequent braking and acceleration).

Vanderbilt's book describes the "spacing dots" in the pavement that have been tried some places, but the spacing would need to change with traffic speed. I'm thinking there might be a way of using smart technology to get dynamic information to drivers to help them judge their following distance.

It would also reduce stress!

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Julie...

the guys who are utilizing every last inch of that merging lane to cut themselves in at the last minute and blaming others for not letting them merge are the same ones who don't seem to realize that riding your tailpipe is NOT in their best interests.

the idea is not to fill every last inch of the roadway but to use it effectively and safely.

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
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Either people read WSB or are catching on or both -- the merge this morning was much better (at 7:45). With the exception of some %^&* in a red audi who thought the empty right lane, prior to the construction blockage, was hir personal superhighway -- drove along at probably 40, slammed on the brakes at the barriers, and pulled out in front of a truck witout even signaling or looking apologetic. That ain't no zipper--that's simple entitlement.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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the trouble with even great books like Traffic is that too many think they can cherry pick what they want out of it without looking at it as a whole...

and then corrupt their cherry picked tidbits to their own advantage.

Posted 1 year ago #
Julie
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Hmm...I don't THINK either I or the OP was cherry-picking. I don't own the book, though, so I may have forgotten something since I read it.

My point was just that it might be possible to develop a method for encouraging/reminding drivers of good following distances. I think most people would really like to be good drivers. I suspect those annoying drivers who sit on my tailpipe aren't usually trying to be annoying, they're just focused on getting themselves somewhere as quickly as possible and haven't absorbed the notion of teamwork.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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julie..

i think you hit the nail on the head...

it's the notion of teamwork that is sorely lacking.

Posted 1 year ago #
coolie
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DaveB,

You and I must've run into the same driver (no pun intended). I just posted almost the exact same story a few days ago, and also mentioned Traffic. This was last Friday evening. I ignored the guy though, ended up squeezing around him and merging when the lane actually ended. I wonder if he made the same gestures towards me, but I didn't bother to give him the time of day. Worse part of it was he could've caused an accident by moving into the left lane first, then swerving back after realizing I was going to pass him, long before the 1st Ave exit. I had to hit the brakes and move over to the right into the path of guys in the 1st Ave exit lane to avoid hitting him.

Posted 1 year ago #
yeah-me
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I think it is worse when someone is in the "zipper" lane and stops dead in the middle of it trying to merge about a half a mile before it actually ends. Once you are in the lane, you should commit to going to the end of the land and merging gracefully.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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why?
so they can stop dead at the end of the lane?

this idea that bare road somehow begs to be filled if only you could reach it to fill it is a huge fallacy... I watch drivers working the traffic on the freeways all the time.. only to pass them later when they get stuck in a knot of their own making.

driving is an individual effort..
but smoothly running traffic is a team effort...

courtesy is a two way street.. demanding courtesy from the drivers you regularly pass and then condemn as schmucks for not taking advantage as you have probably isn't going to work out so well.

the words road rage come to mind.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
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JoB, you're missing the point. A driver weaving through freeway traffic is not the same as drivers using all lanes available to them. No one here is advocating being in the left lane, then switching to the right, then back to the left, etc. Rather, the goal is to use all open lanes as long as it is feasible, then merge out of lanes as they close. It is not a selfish action, and continuously returning to this thread to try to get the last word (or many words...) will not change that.
In summary: weaving through freeway traffic (excessive lane changes) = illegal and subject to a ticket.
Driving past a freeway exit ramp line-up only to cut over at the last minute (impeding through traffic and obstructing an open freeway lane) - illegal and subject to a ticket.
Driving in the West Seattle Bridge bus lane to pass traffic and cut over at the last minute = illegal and subject to a ticket.
Using all available lane space prior to a merge point = certainly not illegal, and in fact a preferred method, as it minimizes traffic back-ups.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Sarah..

and i think those who give the zipper argument for riding the lane to the very end and then expecting the line of traffic in the already merged lane to let them immediately in are missing the point.

if you look at the signs on a merging lane you will see a warning then you will see a sign that clearly indicates merge. That is the point at which one should merge with the other lane.

Merging when the warning occurs is a personal choice that may be appropriate for those who worry that they won't be able to successfully merge..

But merging at the last possible opportunity is also a choice... the excess lane is there for those who CAN not merge at the merging point.. not for those who WILL not.

It's bogus to justify that personal choice as being the most effective choice..

if traffic has merged and is moving along in one lane.. someone has to stop to let the person who has run the excess lane out in.. which backs up the entire lane:(

Posted 1 year ago #
KBear
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JoB, you are twisting the subject of this thread in order to make an argument. Yes, if you see a sign that your lane is ending soon, you should be preparing to merge. But that is not what this was about. This was about drivers choosing when to merge into an exit lane, and other drivers deliberately blocking them from making use of an open lane. If the lane is open, and if there will be an opportunity ahead to merge safely and legally, there is no reason to leave your free-flowing lane to enter one that is all backed up.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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i don't agree with the person who blocked the lane...

but as someone who sensibly merges when the road signs indicate i should do so... i am not going to be stopping to let someone in line who thought they could gain an extra car length or two by refusing to merge until the lane was barricaded.

and i am sure not going to buy the argument that they have not only the right but the responsibility to insist that i do so.

if i have to stop to let them in line they have not properly merged with traffic when they had the opportunity to do so.

the argument that they have gained an advantage doesn't negate the fact that by doing so they have become the traffic obstruction.

Posted 1 year ago #
Julie
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But if you leave adequate space between you and the next car, all the time, then you will not NEED to stop to let them in.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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Julie...

let me see if i am making sense of this...

in a stopped/crawling line of traffic at the actual point where the second lane ends..

i should leave room for cars that didn't merge so that they can slip in front of me?

Hmmm.. No.

I always leave a safe margin between myself and the car in front of me, but at 0-5 mph one car length IS a safe distance from the car in front of me... and i am not speaking of the length of a semi with trailer.

at that distance i would have to completely stop to let a car into the lane ahead of me.

Even if we are talking theoretically in perfectly synchronized traffic, the space between my car and another would be adequate for a car to merge.. however, i would still have to brake to create a safe distance between myself and the car that just merged and that would also slow the flow of traffic.

It is justifiable to do that once at the point of merge.. but to do it repeatedly for people who can't manage to merge when instructed to do does not make sense.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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btw.. i'm done.

i would ask you to consider a situation less emotionally charged though...

have you ever been in a traffic slowdown.. one of those times when it would literally be faster to walk than to drive the distance between you and the point of slowing..

and found when you passed that the traffic tie up was due to an accident on the other side of the freeway that technically didn't impact your lanes at all?

that's the cumulative impact of repeated brake lights... regardless of where and why they occur.

Posted 1 year ago #
waterworld
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I read the Traffic book and am completely persuaded that the "zipper" method is the most efficient in situations involving reduction in the number of lanes at a fixed point. If drivers use all the available space in both lanes approaching the point where the lanes merge, then everyone gets through the bottleneck more quickly.

The Traffic book is a very interesting read, and I recommend it to everyone who believes they know the best, most efficient, most morally correct way to drive. (I think that's roughly all of us.) I was genuinely surprised at how frequently our innate sense of what is the most effective way to control traffic is off-the-mark.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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waterworld..

you will find the scenario i just related in that book :)

Posted 1 year ago #
waterworld
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Yeah, I know that. I'm more interested in the discussion of the zipper thing, though. Honestly, I'm just constantly amazed at the emotional energy that people put into driving. I think I added years to my life the day I decided I was done letting it bother me. I wonder what would happen if we put blood pressure monitors on every driver so they could see the immediate effect of getting pissed off because someone cut in?

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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waterworld...

LOL... that's exactly why i generally drive the speed limit leaving plenty of room to escape the peccadilloes of my fellow drivers :)

a well executed zipper is a thing of beauty...

but poorly executed it creates all those nasty brake lights that bottle up traffic:(

an efficient zipper doens't require waiting till you hit the barricades to merge..

it requires merging successfully at a point of merger that still allows for possible evasive action

ok ok i know i said i was done.

i am waiting for my grandson and his friends to post in a facebook conversation and looking for distraction :(

Posted 1 year ago #
yeah-me
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The reason I think it is more dangerous to stop a half a mile before you lane ends so that you can "merge" instead of driving to the end of the lane, is that you are, in effect, stopping in the middle of the road in a lane that should be moving. You are VERY likely to be rear-ended. Sure..it is the drivers fault who hit you, but will that be enough to sooth your whiplash?

A few years ago I had this discussion with a friend and he pointed out that the drivers manual states that you should, in fact, drive to the end of the lane and then merge. That said, I went all through the online manual and noticed that they have removed everything about this type of merging.

I do believe though, that it is the recommended merging method.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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yeah-me
you shouldn't have to stop to merge if you merge before the end of the lane...
merging is looking for an opening in the line of traffic and moving into it.
even in stop and go traffic.. not all cars move at the same rate.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoB
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oh blast!
i am grounding myself:(

Posted 1 year ago #
kellym
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Well I found myself thinking of this thread and chuckling this morning on my drive east...a semi with trailer merged just behind me and then proceeded to drive straddling the lanes until the end of the right lane....evidently this isn't just for amateurs......

Posted 1 year ago #