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Dead snake at Nickersville

Started 11 months ago by hammerhead
Latest reply from JoB

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hammerhead
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I will do my best to stay calm on this thread. This snake died today most of the camp knew about it. Some tried to get the snake from him. I know we can not tell people what to do with their animal but when it comes to neglect and abuse the is where I draw the line. I know that there are some "displaced" people there that are going to try and breed the Chihuahua's which I think should NOT be allowed. Don't get me started on that.

Yes animal control was called and new about it but it is to late. I guess this person has been thrown out of the camp. I did not know who to talk to about this, but at the same time everyone at that camp should have stepped up to help this snake whether you like them or not. It did suffer and that was not right.

I am also not very good at communicating in these situations. :) I get a little to passionate.

Posted 11 months ago #
velo_nut
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None of what you said made any sense.

Posted 11 months ago #
mehud7
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velo-nut
What are you unclear about? This poor snake was not properly cared for. It should not have been allowed in such conditions.

Posted 11 months ago #
shed22
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Conditions at Nickersville, unfit for a snake.

Posted 11 months ago #
happywalker
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The name of the camp is Nickelsville...not Nickersville

Posted 11 months ago #
Que
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shed22 - some snakes (depending on what kind it is) require fairly specific conditions. I can easily imagine an environment that would be tolerable and adequately safe for people, but intolerable for a snake.

Posted 11 months ago #
service dog academy
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Have you talked to the owners of the Chi about how prenatal exposure to stress in utero can cause LIFELONG brain altering damage for the puppies? Dont even get me started about how dogs that are exposed to stress after being born can also cause the exact same thing. Breeding those dogs in a stressful environment is condemning those puppies to a LIFETIME of anxiety and stress and eventual euthanasia. You couldnt PAY me enough money to take on a dog that was raised in a stress filled environment.

Mary McNeight, CPDT-KA, CCS, BGS
Service Dog Academy, Seattle WA
Owner/Head Trainer
http://www.servicedogacademy.com
mary@servicedogacademy.com
206-355-9033

Posted 11 months ago #
hammerhead
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DUH yes. I sure have even told them, also about pyometra and complications about births, but I guess when a dog has already had 3 litters they just assume the dogs won't have any problems. They aren't even selling them just giving them away.

velonut what mehud said. not to hard to figure out that snakes need warmth those poor humans don't even have it

Posted 11 months ago #
MB
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Can't help but agree with Velo-nut on this one, and I don't mean that to be snarky at all. As someone who doesn't know the back story, I'm left a bit confused by this post. Clearly you are passionate and upset about what happened, but the story itself is a little lost in translation is all. I can't speak for Velo, but I don't think that comment was meant to be rude, maybe it just came off as short. That's basically what i said in my head after reading the OP the first time...I had to read it again to get it.

Posted 11 months ago #
singularname
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Have you talked to anyone about how prenatal exposure to stress in utero can cause LIFELONG brain-altering damage for humans? Don't even get me started about how humans who are exposed to stress after being born can also cause the exact same thing. Breeding humans in a stressful environment is condemning them to a LIFETIME of anxiety and stress and eventual depression, psychosis, homelessness, addictions, and/or even suicide. You wouldn't have to PAY me to express empathy for a human being who was raised in a stress filled--and most likely much much worse--environment.

Posted 11 months ago #
HunterG
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Where the hell is this thread going? Am I missing something?

Posted 11 months ago #
velo_nut
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"Duh yes"
.
What? No one here can read minds. No response to a valid question requires such an obtuse answer.
.
Hint. If you are truly passionate about a subject, sit down and think what you are going to say. After typing it, step away for a bit and come back to read it. Does it make sense? Easy to read? Does it flow well? Hit the send post button.

Posted 11 months ago #
hammerhead
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NO back story as a snake died because it was allowed in a camp and not properly taken care of.

The "duh yes' was directed towards SDA not in a bad way but to let her know I have done my best to educate people about the health risk of unaltered dogs or cats. I even took down printed materials about pyometra.

Singulaname wasn't talking about humans, I was talking about the dogs that they are wanting to breed down there.

God I hope this clears this up. An animal died and no one down there took the steps to help out the snake. So many people are supporting the people lets not forget about the animals.

Posted 11 months ago #
SarahScoot
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"NO back story as a snake died because it was allowed in a camp and not properly taken care of."
Actually, that is about the back story you needed to provide. Maybe reword it a little bit to say "A snake died today at Nickelsville because it was not given proper care."
Context is key to communication. I was also quite confused when I first read your post. You said "the snake," which makes me think I'm supposed to know of a certain snake to which you're referring.

And sorry, your response to SDA did come off as curt at least.

Posted 11 months ago #
TDe
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In chastising some emotional postings I want to make sure we are not losing sight of the issue... which is that it appears Nickelsville doesn't have sound animal control regulations or enforcement in place and an animal has perished because of it. If the community doesn't have/enforce very specific rules around keeping animals, then Seattle animal control should conduct routine inspections to insure that animals kept there have the best possible conditions and that state and city ordinances are being followed. Since there has already been an incident with an animal dying from poor conditions and if dog breeding is going on just for fun, this irresponsibility needs to be addressed immediately. Proper care and treatment of animals should not be taken lightly by any community. And puppy mills, no matter how small or unprofitable, should not be tolerated.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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the problem i see is this...

there is no shelter that provides heat that will take a snake..

if the homeless person wanted to keep the snake with them and be in a safe environment... they had no choice other than nickelsville.

Rather than condemn, perhaps we need to work towards a temporary housing solution for the pets of people who become homeless.

homelessness.. for the most part.. is not a choice.

Posted 11 months ago #
TDe
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A temporary housing solution for pets of the homeless is an outstanding idea. Maybe a foster community set-up of some sort.

Posted 11 months ago #
2 Much Whine
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Sounds like rather than a foster care system it needs to be more of a SPS (Snake Protective Services) or PPS (Puppy Protective Services) as it doesn't seem to me that these folks believe there is a problem and likely wouldn't willingly give up their companions. This thread is starting to make too much sense now. Proposing actual solutions? It's way more fun to try to decipher ambiguous rants and comment on a blog than it is to actually propose a solution and take action. By the way, don't snakes eat songbirds?

Posted 11 months ago #
TammiWS
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I agree. While I understand people would like to keep their pet with them at Nicklesville, I'm not so sure it should be allowed. The pet shouldnt have to be placed in conditions for the sake of companionship not to mention its enough of a challenge to feed and house the homeless themselves.

I'd agree a temp housing option for the pets while the owners get on their feet would be great.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
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...because a puppy mill is just what Nickelsville needs in order to polish its image and change people's perceptions of homelessness.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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TammiWS...

"We" do not feed and house the homeless.
that is why they are living in tents in a bog.

KBear...

puppy mill? what puppy mill?

*&%##&*%%*

Why is it that we see part of a story and think we not only know the whole but that we know better than the people living it what should be done?

walk a block in those shoes and you will find yourself incredibly grateful for those you are lucky enough to wear..

and that doesn't apply just to being homeless.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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velo-nut...

abusing people isn't any more palatable than abusing animals.

it's one thing to ask for clarity..
quite another to tell someone they have no right to post because they aren't as articulate as you think they should be.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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today i am cleaning my refrigerator door...
one method wipe at a time.

am i aware that using wipes ..
even if they are environmentally sound wipes..
is the most wasteful method possible?

yes, i am.

but..
and here is where i tie this into that walking a block in someone else's shoes thing...

i have been cleaning my refrigerator door a shelf at a time for about an hour now...
and i am not done.

cleaning as much as i can at one time...
with one wipe at a time...
is the only way i can get the job done.

i am going to make a big confession here
i clean my entire home..
one wipe at a time.
and they aren't always environmentally sound wipes..
because that is how i can get the job done.

my payoff for persistence?
I get to smile through a lecture from some well meaning person who thinks it's their job to tell me how wasteful i am being every time i purchase a new supply of wipes.

making assumptions based on limited evidence
or on how we think life should be
rarely shows the whole picture...

not even in those picture perfect houses.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
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Look, JoB, I'll admit I don't know if the part about breeding Chihuahuas in Nickelsville for the fun of it true or not. But if it is, I don't think it's out of line to call it a puppy mill. Being poor and having a companion animal as one of your only joys in life is one thing. But breeding animals you can't properly care for under stressful conditions is unconscionable.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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KBear...

as far as i know,
those who are choosing to breed their animals in Nickelsville
have loving non-paying homes for them...
even if they aren't "homes" you or i might "approve" of..

that isn't the description of a puppy mill...

i personally believe that all companion pets should be sterilized..
including those in Nickelsville...
mine are.

but until everyone else is ready to agree to limit breeding to licensed and regulated breeders..
the people living in Nickelsville should have the same right to make the same self serving stupid choices that everyone else makes.

nearly every dog i have shared my home with has been a rescue...
many of them were abused before finding my home.

they were all from "good" homes...
that is..
they lived in nice houses with fenced yards
and were taken to the vet.

i think we make too many assumptions about the kind of people who are living in Nickelsville
and about what kind of conditions their pets live in...

This snake was an exception..
requiring more heat than could be provided in a tent..
but most pets are delighted to find themselves camping
out of necessity they spend a lot of time with their people..
and there is little that makes a pet happier.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
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Sorry, JoB, I still don't think it's OK for Nickelsville residents to breed animals on-site. It's bad for the animals, and it's bad publicity for the homeless cause. There should be a rule against it, just as there are rules against drugs and alcohol and sex offenders. A rule that all dogs and cats be spayed or neutered would help, too. If one doesn't have the means to put a roof over one's head, one certainly can't afford proper veterinary care for a litter of puppies.

Posted 11 months ago #
SarahScoot
Member Profile

Definitely on KBear's (and SDA's, and HH's) side here... it's not about whether one has the rights to breed dogs, it's whether it is right. In most cases, I don't like the practice; in this case, I especially don't like it.

Posted 11 months ago #
maplesyrup
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This might sound callous, and I'm not usually one to judge others, but if you're homeless do you really need a pet snake? Seems like Bad Judgment 101 right there. Maybe that's just a little too much responsibility for someone who's job hunting and living in a tent. Plus it is unfair to the snake.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
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Maplesyrup..
why do you assume homeless came before the pet snake?

Posted 11 months ago #
chrisma
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I made the assumption that the pet snake was a pet before it's owner became a Nickelsville resident.

And as the owner of an exotic pet myself (turtle), I can say that it's not necessarily easy to re-home them.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

is it any more right for people who live in houses to breed their adorable little dogs and cats because they think every female should be able to have one litter or because they think a guy should get his before he gets snipped?

should we take pets away from everyone who loses their jobs or lives on limited incomes because they might not be able to afford veterinary care if and when their animal needs it?

because this is what you are talking about when you decide that one set of rules applies to one group of people
and another to those with less means or less political power.

And just how much are you helping out those pets when you remove them from their owners?
Are you not aware that our shelters are overflowing with pets surrendered by their owners because of the economy or because they just became too much trouble?

Is a euthanized dog better cared for than the well loved and well cared for pet of a homeless person?

Because not all of those adorable little 4 footed friends in shelters find homes you know.

and while we are talking..

where is the outrage over the over indulged people who buy designer dogs and then leave them to languish in their yards and send them to shelters when the dog becomes too much trouble?

or people who can't seem to get the basic concept that leash laws apply to them?

or people who train their animals to become vicious?

or people who breed animals in real puppy mills in conditions ..
well.. conditions you wouldn't put your dog in..

and since i find myself on this soapbox..

why is it ok to have people living in conditions you think are bad for their pets?

You all talk about the stress of living in those conditions but i am guessing you don't really have an idea how stressful it is or you wouldn't think punishing someone for being sick or poor by denying them the love and comfort of their pets was such a good idea.

There are laws in place that remove pets from the homes of owners who neglect or abuse them.
The residents of Nickelsville have to abide by those laws just like the rest of us.

Why isn't that enough?

Posted 11 months ago #
TammiWS
Member Profile

Sounds like another story about this topic might be helpful? Its assumptive to believe all the pets are being cared for (how many, who knows?) properly.

Anyway, my comment was meant to state (apparently not clearly though) that its tough enough for people who are homeless to do what they need in order change their situation - job hunt, find housing etc.... My point is if they cant afford shelter/food for themselves why put the pet in the same situation? It's not the 'right' thing to do. Breeding or not, I dont see why rules cant be in place about pets...I agree with kbear, maple and sarah on this.

Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

Posted 11 months ago #
argiles
Member Profile

Yes, it's sad that a snake died, but we shouldn't put judgement on Nicklesville. The owner is probably devestated by the death as it was his/her pet and we all know how pets become part of a family. The residents of Nicklesville are humans just like all of us on the blog including some of us. There are plenty of pet owners who aren't homeless who treat their animals worth shit, or beat the holy hell out of them, or even worse. At least they are trying to take the best care of them that they can given their current circumstance.

As for the breeding of the dogs I agree it is not right.

Don't forget that the economy and what not can change and that you could one day be finding yourself a resident of Nicklesville.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

btw.. before all the rhetoric goes to everyone's head...

what do we really know here?

TDe posted

"it appears Nickelsville doesn't have sound animal control regulations or enforcement in place and an animal has perished because of it."

and everyone has proceeded as though that was the truth.

Is it?

Hammerhead implied that the snake died of exposure and i accepted that as the truth...

but is that the whole truth?

Do we actually know what caused the snake's death?

Were the people who spoke to Hammerhead about trying to get the homeless person to give up the snake doing so because it was a snake and they didn't want it around or because the snake was being neglected?

because i have to tell you that i have heard a very different version of this story both first and second hand.

I was at the camp when Animal Control arrived to pick up the dead snake. I will admit that i didn't stay around long enough to see the snake removed, but what i heard was matter of fact talk about the fact that animal control was here to pick up the snake, not that someone had killed their snake..

and what i have heard second hand since doesn't support the story of known neglect.

So.. beyond the fact that i think homeless people deserve the same right to the companionship of pets that the rest of us do as long as they take care of them...

i question what the facts in this case actually are...

Posted 11 months ago #
maplesyrup
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JoB I didn't assume the owner was homeless before acquiring the snake. (But I suspected you would bring that point up. :))

The owner should have known that the snake needs special conditions to survive. What a shame.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
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The owner of an apartment complex can regulate the number and type of pets allowed. Why shouldn't those who run Nickelsville be able to do the same thing? It doesn't infringe on anybody's rights. If they want to live there, they follow the rules. Breeding of dogs should not be allowed, for various reasons: animal welfare, cleanliness, health and safety of the residents, and public perception of the camp.

Posted 11 months ago #
charlabob
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Those who run Nickelsville are the residents. They vote (frequently) on leadership and on policies.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i guess it's time to take myself down to the camp even though i was trying to take the week off and find out what really happened...

for the record...

i don't think anyone should be breeding their four legged friends..
even when they are well meaning and think they have homes for all the puppies..

but that said...
i think the rules.. whatever they are..
should apply to everyone equally.

if you can do it...
i don't see any reason that someone living in Nickelsville shouldn't be able to do the same...

Posted 11 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Ah, yes, let's not allow things because of "public perception of the camp"....geez!

Posted 11 months ago #
TDe
Member Profile

We can only comment on what was posted, JoB. Not having the time to run down and interview everyone at the camp to investigate and sort out every detail of the truth, I can only comment on what I heard and hope to start a conversation, which might facilitate prevention of another abusive or neglectful animal situation, if in fact, that's what occured. Even newspapers and media news get initial reports wrong, but we all still get to comment and post our opinions. How do I know you are really wiping down your refrigerator? Really, I'm sure you are... and it was actually a good reminder for me to start on mine... :)

I hope there are rules and regs around animals residing in Nicklesville and if there are aren't, it's time to raise enough "heck" so that the issue is addressed, especially since there are now children out there as well as animals. I'm not advocating for pets to be removed from their owners if they are properly cared for. Some of the best cared for dogs I've seen have belonged to people begging on the streets of Seattle. I'm stating that animals in that situation need to be properly cared for and regulated, just like they are cared for and regulated in any neighborhood in West Seattle, to insure that pets are given proper food, shelter, affection and vet access when they require it.

"...as long as they take care of them" really is the optimal phrase. Nicklesville residents should have to abide by the same animal care rules as everyone else, because with this issue it not just about the rights of the residents of Nicklesville, it's about the animals.

I believe what Hammerhead posted about the dogs. She's been in the animal business long enough to delineate a good animal care situation from a bad one and I trust her judgement. This situation is irresponsible breeding. If my neighbors were breeding these little dogs in tents in their backyards here in the Northwest, I'd be outraged. They are fairly fragile creatures and have very little fat to withstand living situations without heat. Not to mention, there are plenty of unwanted animals looking for homes, without creating more.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
Member Profile

Jan, you don't think public perception is important? Nickelsville has a hard enough time being accepted into a neighborhood. There are people who think Nickelsville residents are homeless by choice, that they don't work, that they don't try to fit into mainstream society. Allowing residents to breed Chihuahuas is just going to further those perceptions. Also, the other reasons I mentioned.

Posted 11 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

As for the owner of the snake no he is not to upset, he was asked repeatedly by the women who work with me to give me the snake so I can find it a better place to live. None of the security would do anything either. He has been kicked out of the camp and animal control did come down and talk to the guy and took the red tail boa's body. There is no electricity at the camp so nothing could have been done for the snake in that sense.

Yes there is a lady wants to breed her dog she even told me herself. Plus she now wants to get rid of the older female dog that had the last litter of pups and just gave them away to the people in the camp and keep the younger ones to breed. This is just wrong. I agree with SDC that this is just not the place to be breed cats or dogs.

There is also a pregnant cat there. What if this cat has complications giving birth which does happen, they don't have cars and nor do most have any money to take to vet, not to mention it is not warm enough again for the kittens or mom. What if mom runs into the weeds and takes the kittens with her.

The ladies who work with me say that no one wants to deal with the animal issues. I am sorry but if you do not have a home to "properly" breed don't allow that animal to breed at this camp city. I agree with KBear on this one.

There is no public perception of this camp from me. The only perception I see is the same thing over and over again people do not want to be responsible for their animals and does not matter if you are homeless, displaced or have a million dollars.

I reread and reread hopefully I got the wording right and my thoughts straight. thanks velonut

Posted 11 months ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

Okay, I'm home on my zillionth day of the flu so I'm going to try not to sound as damn cranky as I feel. 1) We have reptile companions and this makes me sick, as does the chi situation. 2) I don't hold this against NV, but the individuals. And in a weird sense, it shows that their neighborhood isn't all that different than mine...we both have careless a$$holes (and - mostly - good people too).
-
I know NV has some rules already in place and I suspect they'll be taking a look at things, so I doubt it's necessary to go on a fact-finding mission, Jo. Whatever the details, there was no suitable heat supply at camp for this snake.

Posted 11 months ago #
angelescrest
Member Profile

Another perspective:
Just came from the Seattle Animal Shelter. They are overflowing with animals of every type. Many large dogs--mostly pits/pit mixes--and cats; and the rabbits! Maybe 15? Ferrets, rats, hamsters, guinea pigs...and a snake (whose sign read "cold"). Way too many animals.

Posted 11 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

What a sad sad story...

the boa was the best friend of a man who thought that his homelessness was temporary and couldn't find someone to keep his boa for him while he tried to put a roof back over their heads.

He was doing ok.. his body was the boa's heat source... until he got sick.. really sick... contagious sick and was hospitalized.

i don't know what the man's illness was.. only that it was contagious enough that he could not return to camp without a doctor's certificate.

He made a lot of bad choices at a bad time with really bad consequences.

the snake ultimately died of starvation/cold from having been left in a backpack too long without care.

i don't know when hammerhead's employees starting trying to get the snake into a warmer more suitable home.

i don't know if it was already too late for this snake by then.

I do know that when it was clear that the snake was in real trouble that an effort was made to revive it... that effort failed.

People do really dumb dangerous things in a crisis whether they live in tents or in houses.

in my opinion, the same is true of people who choose not to neuter their pets... regardless of where they live.

One thing i will tell you..
this has made me think a lot about the need for a plan for my dogs if i was hospitalized.
in my case, they wouldn't be without a home..
but it's not as though someone could just drop by and feed them either.

It is so easy to say what could or should have been done but life has a way of becoming far more complicated than we intended.

This is as much a topic around the campfire at Nickelsville today as it has been here on the blog... with as many people blaming the man for not making sure someone knew that the snake needed care as not.

I don't know if he was permanently banned or just asked to leave for a while..
but it likely doesn't matter.
there wasn't much sympathy for him.

this is just plain tragic all the way around.

Posted 11 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

KBear is just like any other community. There will be good peole, and a few bad. There will be educated people and a few not. Just like the rest of society. They actually have more rules than I do possible. But do I make decisions for my best welfare or my pets because of what you might or might not think of me? Oh, please. It's not your call, nor is it my call to decide how you (or they) live. I think we would both resent that. Nickelsville polices itself, and I'm pretty sure the powers that be will get this under "control", too, for lack of a better word. It's just a very sad story :(

Posted 11 months ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Thank you, JoB.

Posted 11 months ago #
KBear
Member Profile

Jan, you misunderstand my point. I am not trying to dictate how Nickelsville residents live. I get that they are self-governing. I am merely trying to point out that public perception of their camp should be a consideration when they make their rules, and I think it already is. I also am not trying to say that public perception of the camp is the most important factor in the dog-breeding issue. It's not. Public health, safety, and the welfare of the animals are all more important. Nonetheless, if Nickelsville is going to succeed in its mission to provide a safe, secure place for homeless people to reside, they absolutely have to take public perception into account, or they will never overcome the resistance of people who misunderstand.

Posted 11 months ago #
velo_nut
Member Profile

I wonder how many pets are licensed in Nickelsville? I hope that the same two officers that knocked on my door a year or so ago meander through tent city.

Posted 11 months ago #
funkietoo
Member Profile

These folks are homeless and your comment is about pet licenses? Please volunteer at the Doney Clinic a few times...you may walk away with a different question or two.

Posted 11 months ago #