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Craig's List ad for kittens in West Seattle

Started 5 months ago by hammerhead
Latest reply from DBP

hammerhead
Member Profile

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pet/2743410401.html

These are the type of people FAF/FCAT have to deal with. This lady doesn't want them to go to a "rescue" to sell them, really? Well as least us "rescues' would responsibly get them fixed, vaccinated and other necessary issues.

She can't even hold them herself so that means they are feral. She can't afford to get the mom fixed and guess what there are at least 3 local rescues that can do that for free. So if this person sounds familiar to ANYONE. Tell them to do the RIGHT thing and get a hold of FAF, FCAT or Furry faces. Again another human making the feral cat issue look bad and not doing anything to fix it.

I can't even try to contact her as I would loose my cookies. SO if anyone can just get all of the cats under her "conditions" I do believe the 3 rescues mentioned above can take it from there.

Please contact:
FCAT or FAF

Posted 5 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

Glad you brought this up. Craig's List has been swamped with animals for sale lately - I've never seen so many. I flagged at least 50 posts the other day, and was going to add a reminder here for other animal advocates to please do the same.

Posted 5 months ago #
justcuz
Member Profile

Rescues don't "sell" pets for crying out loud. This is an example of how dangerous (ignorant) it can be when someone twists a little bit of good information (spay/neuter). I really hope she changes her tune and reaches out to the groups that can help those cats.

Posted 5 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

Flagging DOES NOTHING. Can some just please call her and play "stupid" and just get these poor cats the hell out of her hands. I am begging.

By her post she is not ignorant, she just seems to thing "rescues" make money on our adoption fees. I can guarantee she will not change her tune.

FCAT

Posted 5 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

hh, I'll go in with you on this, but you have to coordinate with me and be open with the kitten lady about what we're doing. No "playing stupid." So call me if you're interested . . .

The craigslist kitten lady seems to have good intentions and knows a lot about cats. Perhaps she simply doesn't understand what feral trapping groups do. (Before I met you, I didn't know what they do either.)

–David

P.S. I disagree with you on the craigslist flagging thing. Flagging might not help with this particular situation, but it definitely discourages people from selling on cl.

anonyme: Good karma!!

Posted 5 months ago #
dhg
Member Profile

AND her info on the local shelter is wrong, isn't it? Hasn't King County committed to being a no kill facility?

Posted 5 months ago #
StringCheese
Member Profile

I just read the original CL post. I think that many of you are being far too harsh on this individual. I seems to me that she is trying to do the right thing.

My impression is that she really cares about making sure these kitties go home with someone responsible. She just trusts herself more than a rescue. Or perhaps she would just like to meet the people who will be caring for them. With a rescue, she is then taken out of the loop of care.

Best decision? Probably not. But, I think that her heart is in the right place. If she can find happy forever homes for them, is that really a bad thing?

Posted 5 months ago #
furryfaces
Member Profile

FCAT and FAF, please let us know if any $$'s are needed to help get mom 'n kittens spayed/neutered and vaccinated.

dhg: KC Regional Animal Services their goal is to have a euthanasia rate lower than 15%. They continue to drive to and below that number.

Furry Faces does not use the term 'No Kill' because it has different definitions, depending on which group is using it, and how they scrub their 'kill' numbers. We use the term 'save rate', defined as 'how many animals are saved and leave the shelter/rescue group alive and well'.

Our focus is on how to increase the save rate to as close to 100% as possible. Hence our mission of spaying/neutering pets of financially restricted folks and helping pets stay with their people and out of shelters/rescue groups.

Prevention and retention programs decrease the number of animals entering sheltering and increases the likelihood of adoption of those that are in shelters/groups because the animals don't have as much 'adoption competition'.

Posted 5 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

I agree with furryfaces on the term "no kill" it does not exist.

I am going to put it out there. I am pretty sure I know who/where this site is at. Again I am pretty sure.

IF it is the site: FAF/FCAT we have been trapping there for about 2 years. The main issue is a person who does NOT believe in s/n, yes neighbors have talked to her and yes animal control has been called. Now the neighbors are stuck dealing with this issue.

While everyone knows I am not always the easiest person to deal with...for FAF to throw her hands up and say I can't help you either, THAT SAYS A LOT.

She states they the person needs to tame them, so a trap seems to be needed in this situation. um, most people who want to adopt a kitten don't want to trap them. Most rescues are so full they won't deal with 8-10 week old feral kittens. I know the shelters won't they are so full right now. Taming kittens takes a lot of time.

As for the shelter, again if she can not handle them she is going to need a trap to even get them to a shelter. How does she know they are litter trained? Sneaks in/outside the house with a terrior inside?

IF she really cared she would have taken the time with FAF 2 months ago and no kittens would have even been born.

Posted 5 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

Thanks DP, my intention was to hinder pet sales on CL, as you said.

I just hit on this one, for example. The poster actually has the audacity to urge readers to call soon because "Craig's List deletes pet ads quickly". Scumbag. She needs more than a flagging.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/for/2747127970.html

Posted 5 months ago #
yeah-me
Member Profile

I read the original ad also, and I agree with StringCheese. She seems to have pretty good intentions. Maybe instead of flaming her and/or tricking her into give you the kittens --maybe you should contact her and offer to help catch them and assist in finding homes.

You catch more bees with honey.... Just sayin.

Posted 5 months ago #
justcuz
Member Profile

yeah-me, read #9. Rescue groups have compared notes offline and the home has been identified as one that has been offered help, by multiple sources, many times, in different "voices", over a long period of time. Heck, I'm just a volunteer and have had two random encounters where I've provided my personal contact information, along with a willingness to do whatever it takes to get the situation under control. Nothing. She simply does not believe in s/n and doesn't have a grasp on the definition of feral/unsocialized cats and their adoptability. The scariest part of this for me is the CL approach. There simply is NO WAY to confirm her "requirements" for the free cats, especially via email. Clinical hoarder? Probably. Will the cats suffer without intervention? Definitely.
-
Oh, and anonyme - yes, those are the ads I flag as well. A "re-homing" fee for a litter of pug puppies...'cuz they just happened to be dropped off on your doorstep, you can't keep them, and now they need to be re-homed...riiiiight.

Posted 5 months ago #
mehud7
Member Profile

I have been reading this thread for several days now, opting to be quiet while I have been emailing back and forth with this person looking for homes for these cats. My offer was to spay\neuter the cats. The person asked if I would bring them back (yes) and what kind of care they would need after surgery. She\he said they could get them into carriers. I told them I would need to pick them up last night by 9pm. Well after emailing back and forth all day ( I also gave my name and number which she\he did not) I didn't hear back. My concern is that these cats are going to be given away unspayed\neutered and since the person doesn't want a rescue involved there is no guarantee that the new owners will do so. She/he is also fooling themself if they think any rescue will take semi-feral cats, on Friday-their deadline. All rescues I know of are full and don't have the volunteer power to work with 10 week old feral kittens. I feel that I have gone out of my way to work with this person on their
terms. Yes, I run a rescue but was willing to take off that hat to try to help this person and the cats.

Posted 5 months ago #
mehud7
Member Profile

So yeah-me, the honey approach won't work with this person.

Posted 5 months ago #
FYI
Member Profile

SO I contacted the guy on CL, let him know which rescues I know of and which I recommend, the PERSON on _____ Avenue (I'm not going to name any names but most likely a poster on this topic).. they are in ________ Actually once came to our house in a giant truck late at night, tore up our gravel driveway, all hyped up talking/yelling so loudly 3 of our neighbors came outside, WE trapped all the cats, only a few came back, then we saw them on craigslist FOR SALE for over $100/ea, we as well as the guy in WS were trying to do something good ourselves we did not make a scene because we thought the cat *person was paying to fix them -NOPE! they fix them free of charge, so we did all the work, and THEY profited. I agree that this kind of dealing should be avoided at all costs. There are other legitimate rescues out there, who re-home only to cover the costs incurred by each animal. I also let the poster know of your plot against HIM, and to seek a lawyer if it continues, he declined saying it wasn't that big of a deal, after all they are only stray cats. So if a rescue is going to be deceptive for profit, this is exactly why people are not willing to deal with them. If you want to help the guy find homes for the cats, why not help that way?? or is it all about your bottom line?.

Posted 5 months ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

That's a pretty big accusation to throw out there without knowing for sure if any of the people posting on this thread are the person you're talking about (I can't even tell if you're referring to a man or a woman, as long as you're making accusations you might want to be clearer about who you're accusing and of what). Especially since the rescuers posting here have been on this forum for years, and you joined...hmmm...18 minutes ago.

Just FYI, FYI.

Posted 5 months ago #
FYI
Member Profile

Umm using my anonymous new name, and not accusing ANYONE. Just a story a personal and true experience.

Posted 5 months ago #
Lena
Member Profile

I just want to add in as one of the veterinarians who works with FCAT. FCAT invests a lot of money in the care of the cats in their care. The cats that are cared for are all vaccinated, tested, and fixed . FCAT puts hours and hours of their own care into these cats, both Hammerhead and volunteers. Hammerhead even with donations and adoption fees puts a lot of her own money into what she does. There has never been a year that she has made money off of what she does or even breaks even.
She has a wonderful clean facility, seeks help on medical issues when they come up and is willing to help just about anyone out there. She does amazing work.
Yes, she can be blunt but if you are in the line of work she is in it is hard to not be angry sometimes with what you see.
I know there is a lot of support for the work she does on these forums. That is great to see. Just want to make sure that everyone knows the facts about FCAT if that is who FYI is referring to. If you are not referring to FCAT then I apologize for the assumption.
best wishes,
Lena McCullough, DVM

Posted 5 months ago #
FYI
Member Profile

My grandpa always said, when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. Don't assume I am speaking of anyone in particular, I will not say whom I am speaking of, just that THEY (THEY; meaning any rescue who performs acts such as these described, not just the one I had the experience with a few months ago), pick up cats telling the "customer/owner" of the ferals they will be returned, they then handpick and SELL the animals the can maximize profits from and return some or none depending. THIS IS PROBABLY ILLEGAL AND FOR SURE DECEPTIVE. but, I am no lawyer, and I do not even care about this topic enough to waste much more time.

Posted 5 months ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

I will also add that I have interacted directly with FAF and FCAT, and am familiar with F3 and others who have worked with them. (I'll stick to the 3 rescues originally named). NONE of them "profit" off of their work, period. Every decision, sometimes a difficult one, is made in the best interest/for quality of life of the animal. That's a lot of vague speculation to throw around, fyi, and it truly sounds like you're just seeing what you can throw out and get to stick to the wall. Toeing the troll line in my book.

Posted 5 months ago #
FYI
Member Profile

It's really nice how if a private person wants to rescue dumped kittens you freak out, even when people on craigslist post cats that they have vetted, fixed, etc.. that come with $100's in supplies they get flagged by rescues if they want $100 for the animal ($300-500 invested), but if a rescue does it, the shots cost what a whole $1-2, free neutering spaying, and they are angels, rarely asking for less than $100, and then the private party is accused of being an animal hoarder or puppy mill. It sounds to me like a bunch of good buddies on here trying to bully the only person making any sense. I feel the CL thing is part of the whole problem, private people can do the right thing and if we all did there would be no need for rescues.. is this the reason why you are so touchy if private people do it rescues will go under??

Just asking.

Posted 5 months ago #
Lena
Member Profile

Most rescue groups spend about double their adoption fee on every animal in their care. They get some of that back through donations. All the larger groups have financial statements online.
For example here is the one for the Seattle Humane Society which is a private non-profit.
http://www.seattlehumane.org/explore/about/finances
They spend about 3 million a year on adoption services and take in 5800 animals a year. 2 million of their budget for adoption services is for staff. If you take staff away that brings it down to 1 million. That still is $172 they spend per animal that they take in not including staff. If you include salaries it is three times that. Their adoption fees are about $100 on average. They make 462,000 off of adoptions a year and pay 3 million to care for these animals. I have never known a shelter or rescue group to pay less than $100 on average per cat they rescue. Yes there will be some that only cost $25 because they come in fixed and get adopted right away and then some that cost $1000 or more because of illness or special care that is needed.

I encourage you to do some volunteer work with a shelter or rescue group to see how things are run. There are a lot of expenses that you don't commonly think about including food, litter, utilities, cleaning supplies, blankets/beds, dishes, testing, medication, vet expenses, etc.

Posted 5 months ago #
brew
Member Profile

Could be wrong, but I always presumed that most rescue services received grants, both gov. and private, for each animal they "rescued".

Posted 5 months ago #
mehud7
Member Profile

Brew- grants take time, grant-writing types, and are difficult to get. Many small rescues are too busy rescuing to search for grants but would welcome volunteers who love that kind of work.
FYI- Spay/neuter is NOT FREE for rescues, but here in Seattle we are fortunate to have access to low-cost through the Feral Cat Spay Neuter Project in Lynnwood. Also, most animals being sold on Craig's List by individuals have had little to no vet care.

Posted 5 months ago #
Lena
Member Profile

There are grants available but usually only the larger rescues get them who have a person on staff that is in charge of grants and fundraising (so non-profits like Seattle humane) and they are not per animal (at least at my time at larger non-profits I never saw a per animal grant).

Large rescue groups like Seattle Humane make up the lose per animal by fundraising. When I worked at Seattle Humane there were three full time staff members to fundraise.

Smaller rescues don't pay staff, they use their own time, but many of the expenses come out of pocket even after adoption fees and donations.

Posted 5 months ago #
hammerhead
Member Profile

I could ONLY hope and pray I go out of "rescue" business.

I am not even a non profit. SO i don't get ANY grants. If people donate money I very upfront that I am NOT a non profit and they can not get a write off.

Break down of costs:
vaccines actually cost $5.00 don't forget syringes
Deworming, roundworm
Tapeworm that pill alone cost $10.00
Advantage
Combo testing FLEV/FIV. 15.00
spay 25.00
neutor 15.00
IF the cat/kitten gets an eartip then FREE.
earmites tresaderm 12.00
lets not forget the vet visits for URI and meds for that, then abscesses and meds for that.

Then bad side of things. Distemper that sucks!! We have to take to vet to MAYBE try and treat it or just euthanize, then we have to pay for disposal of body that cost money.

Just had an eye removal cost $500.00. I will never make that money up in an adoption fee.

Correct on what Mehud says. Why would anyone get a free cat/kitten and go to a vet and pay up to if not more than 200.00. Heck most vets charge that much for a spay alone. Our adoptions fee are $100.00.

Oh FCAT does not post kittens for adoptions on craig's list ads. We work with All the Best Pet stores and then petfinder.

FAF I know works with Next to Nature.

Posted 5 months ago #
FYI
Member Profile

And then those pet stores post the pictures on CL.

Posted 5 months ago #
mehud7
Member Profile

FYI-That is simply not true.

Posted 5 months ago #
critter
Member Profile

My family assists in fostering rescued kittens/cats. There is no money made. FYI - what are YOU doing to help? Are you fostering, trapping, helping in anyway or are you just sitting at your computer trying to stir things up?

Posted 5 months ago #
Lindsey
Member Profile

I too, would like to step in and vouch for Hammerhead. I called her when my apartment neighbor abandoned her un-spayed, indoor/outdoor cats. She came quickly, without disturbing anyone in my building, cared for the kitties, got some spayed, and they were back in their normal neighborhood in no time. The wonderful woman who moved into the apartment took them in. Thanks for helping those kitties out, hammerhead.

Posted 5 months ago #
elikapeka
Member Profile

FYI, you're painting with a very broad brush. I don't discount that you may have had a bad experience, but please don't judge everyone who does cat rescue through that lens. It's very unfair.

Posted 5 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

Another CL post that needs lots of flags: please explain to me how multiple chihuahuas of different ages need to be "rehomed" for $250 each?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/for/2752639135.html

Posted 5 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

anon: Good karma again.

And thanks for educating me about this issue, the rest of you guys. Based on my initial reading of these cl pet posts, I would not have detected anything "off" about them. Now I know better.

I'm sure some are still legit, but clearly, some cl posters are cloaking pet sales in the guise of "freebies."

Posted 5 months ago #
anonyme
Member Profile

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I just finished flagging over 40 pet sale ads on Craig's List, most of them advertising for Xmas puppies. Many of these animals were bred specifically as holiday merchandise. As an example of the mindset of these flesh traders, here is an ad for a puppy under the category "clothing and accessories".
http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/clo/2738228802.html

These people re-post immediately after being flagged off CL, so if you have a free moment please help me harass their sorry asses off again. I use a variety of keywords, including "purebred" (aka "purebread" according to the CL geniuses). Some of them are very creative in how they sneak their posts on CL, as DBP pointed out.

Posted 5 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

You know, anon, it's no good linking to a post that you just flagged, because by the time the rest of us get there, it's usually gone. Because you flagged it. :o

The thing about Xmas puppies as "accessories" is kind of . . . I dunno . . . cute. In a cynical kind of way. It's sorta like those antlers the Grinch tied onto his little poochie to make him into a faux reindeer. Remember?

Anyway, CL pet sales might make a good topic for a "DBP Special Report." I fancy the idea of mustering up an army of CL flaggers, but you've got to make it more interesting for people. I'll take a good look at CL's pet section one of these days and see what's up with that.

–David

Posted 5 months ago #