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Civil Disobedience: Whys and Wherefores

Started 6 months ago by DBP
Latest reply from JoB

DBP
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This thread is dedicated to the proposition that intelligent people can disagree.

Some notable conservatives on this blog have implied that civil disobedience is ethically wrong simply because it's legally "wrong." Is that really so?

Let's consider specific cases. The Civil Rights Movement, for example. When Martin Luther King Jr. was ordered by Birmingham police not to march in that city with his supporters, legally, the police were "right" and MLK and friends were "wrong." Although the history books don't record this, many middle class Americans of the time — including even some Blacks — thought that MLK was "pushing it" and was wrong for breaking the law, regardless of his justification.

Or consider the American Revolution. What was the Revolution, after all, if not one big act of "disobedience" to the lawful authority of the British who had already granted many (not inconsiderable) rights to the colonials? — though clearly not as many as the colonials would have liked.

What say you, Gandalf?

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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I am a conservative. I fully support civil disobedience. However, there are costs associated with it. One being getting a whiff of pepper spray and an ass whuppin from time to time. Sometimes a little time in the slammer... Civil disobedience is not a latte affair. I propose a million musket march... where 180 million conservatives shoulder their weapons, march down Pennsylvania Avenue to remind congress just who the consenting are, and what they are if they withdraw that consent. .. When you challenge the "order" of things sometimes you donate a little pain for the cause. You don't petition the very order you are protesting for succor and protections.. how ridiculous. How Northwest to have civil rules for civil disobedience. It was the dogs, the fire hoses, that punctuated the dire need for change.. not standing around occupying space.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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When you challenge the "order" of things sometimes you donate a little pain for the cause. You don't petition the very order you are protesting for succor and protections.. how ridiculous.

Oh, I see. So that would leave you with the stark choice of either (a) getting your ass whupped or (b) overthrowing the existing order by force.

No in-betweenies.

No trying to appeal to the better angels of the other guy's nature.

No trying to convince the general public of the rightness of your cause.

No petitioning the courts for "redress of grievances."

Is that what you're saying?

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
Member Profile

This hasn't been confirmed yet. I hope it isn't true but I wanted to put this out there before this conversation possibly got heated and people said things they wish they hadn't.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/21/pregant-woman-blasted-with-pepper-spray-by-spd-reportedly-miscarries

Again, it hasn't been confirmed nor have the pepper-spraying and punch to the stomach been clearly identified as the cause. But the mere possibility of this happening should be enough to influence police behavior. In my mind, anyhow.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Well DBP... show me a movement of substance that didn't throw down? So far, Occupy has been a big yawn... and an inconvenience of minor dimensions. Everyone is just too cozy .. this system works for the elected, it works for the ones who have access. Why change it? Truth is, the entrenched liberals are just hoping it garners votes,, giving it tacit, lukewarm endorsement.. and the conservatives are hoping it goes on long enough with no effect and discourages votes. No one ia taking the elected to task, and they are just as cozy as can be with things as they are.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

That is pathetic Yardvark! "Before it gets heated" let's put up a link from a trash news source like THE STRANGER. That news source will then be linked to some other dude's blog about something that sounds completely bogus. So the Seattle P.D. punched this girl in the stomach and caused a mis-carriage? And you're buying this Yard?

BEFORE IT GETS HEATED, let's throw out a B.S. story of police brutality....okay, now let's have a mature discussion about civil disobedience. GO!

Do you see why it's so difficult to have a meaningful conversation with somebody like you? If there weren't any Conservatives on this thread, that would have just gone for news, and nobody would think twice about such an insane story. Thanks for polluting the conversation with crap before the adults even start talking Yard. Pathetic.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Hey DBP.. perfect! You succinctly, aptly, and accurately named the true context and flavor of the ominous sounding "Occupy" movement.. it is really the "In-Betweenie" movement... you too can be an "In-Betweenie".. so perfect. "In Betweenie" campouts... what fun!!!!

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
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Just trying to look out for you guys, actually. Sorry.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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Yardvark's got my respect because he's been following this movement closely and keeping us informed. But, yeah, Yard . . . I was sort of trying to keep this discussion separate from the one about police responses.

kootchman: You'd be hard pressed to show how someone who camps out in the cold and rain, night after night, week after week is wimping out. I'm quite proud of these folks, actually, the more so when I think of how apathetic the average American is.

Occasionally I will talk with some activist or other and will come away thinking: How naive! I never criticize these people, though. I save my criticism for the know-it-alls who love to analyze politics but are nowhere to be found when the time comes to get involved.

Following this same line of reasoning, I would have more respect for say . . . a Republican who picks up trash in his neighborhood and drives old folks to the polls on election day than for . . . a Democrat whose sole contribution to The Struggle is kvetching about rich people.

Seems like there are quite a few people of all political creeds on this Blog who are trying to make the world a better place. And that makes me proud. And thankful.

Huh. Whaddaya know? And it's not even Thanksgiving yet.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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What DBP said :)

"I save my criticism for the know-it-alls who love to analyze politics but are nowhere to be found when the time comes to get involved."

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Maybe cause they aren't involved in your particular brand of politics, and not visible to you, you may assume facts not in evidence. I see lots of politics and direct action at all sorts of trade groups and meetings. Been going to a lot of National Association of Manufacturers lately have ya? Or, the National Petroleum Council?? Hmm? Give me a list of Dmeocrats who want to go to the polls and need a ride.... I'll pick em up.... and deliver them...somewhere. Oh no, we don't have show up elections anymore, Democrats don't like it. Tough to check voter registrations and such trivial things like actual citizenship. We do it by mail.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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So..you were in DC on 9/15, Kootch?

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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kootch...

for all of the allegations of voter fraud
very little has actually been found

unless of course you count those voting machines in ohio .. or was it Iowa?
in a past presidential election...

election fraud is rampant

but the fear of voter fraud is being used right now by Republicans to disenfranchise voters... including but not limited to students, the poorly documented elderly, the travelling retired and our servicemen and women serving overseas.

The real "voter" fraud is happening before citizens get a chance to send in their ballot .. or visit the ballot box for that matter.

all in the name of "cleaning up" elections

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
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My point wasn't protesting should always remain civil. My point was if its not you should be prepared for what comes with that. Whether thats pepper spray, rubber bullets, being tazed or even death.

Its foolish to think you will be able to protest break the law and have nothing happen. Its equally foolish to think you can get any change without protesting. You take the good with the bad.

Other than that whatever. If I think a civil war is coming, I will pick my side, arm myself and fight to the death for what I believe it. Knowing my neighbors as well as I do I would say I have one of the more armed homes in the block. I stock close to 4000 rounds of ammo and more than enough guns that I could easily defend myself.

Posted 6 months ago #
waynster
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Kman that sounds more like more like a rebellion then a civil disobedience. Something the NRA would organize to potest gun control not bad politics. Voter fraud not so much theses days as it was back when conservatives forced the poor and minorites to vote their way. Unlike Chicago and Louisiana in the not so past were corruption ruled the day... although Florida came close during the bush gore elections and the republicans ran that dirty show......

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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Bostonman, I generally agree with what you say; however, I don't think civil war is on the horizon. If war does break out, though, I'll be sure to stay off your lawn. So thanks for the heads up.

:-)

Now here's a poem called "Ballad of Birmingham" by Dudley Randall. In this poem, a worried Black mother forbids her young daughter to participate in a civil rights march, admonishing her to go to church (where she'll be safe) instead . . .

Ballad of Birmingham

(On the bombing of a church in Birmingham, Alabama, 1963)

“Mother dear, may I go downtown
Instead of out to play,
And march the streets of Birmingham
In a Freedom March today?”

“No, baby, no, you may not go,
For the dogs are fierce and wild,
And clubs and hoses, guns and jails
Aren’t good for a little child.”

“But, mother, I won’t be alone.
Other children will go with me,
And march the streets of Birmingham
To make our country free.”

“No, baby, no, you may not go,
For I fear those guns will fire.
But you may go to church instead
And sing in the children’s choir.”

She has combed and brushed her night-dark hair,
And bathed rose petal sweet,
And drawn white gloves on her small brown hands,
And white shoes on her feet.

The mother smiled to know her child
Was in the sacred place,
But that smile was the last smile
To come upon her face.

For when she heard the explosion,
Her eyes grew wet and wild.
She raced through the streets of Birmingham
Calling for her child.

She clawed through bits of glass and brick,
Then lifted out a shoe.
“O, here’s the shoe my baby wore,
But, baby, where are you?”

—Dudley Randall

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175900

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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DBP. I just find it interesting that there are people who are suggesting that they would be fine with "civil disobedience" as long as it's neatly wrapped and packaged the way that they want it. "Here's your little space, and don't you dare cross the line. You have to be controlled by me, and you have to do it the way I say. Otherwise, you're just plain wrong." It's a bit controlling, and makes it all a bit contrived, don't you think? At least this is what I'm hearing. Again, I may be totally off base, as is sometimes the case.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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To me it looks like both Boston and kootch have shifted their ground a little on this. At first they were sounding like they were against civil disobedience on principle. Now they seem to be saying that protest is fine as long as you're prepared to take the consequences — all the way up to being killed.

I agree with them that when you push up against The Man you shouldn't be too shocked when he pushes back, but surely you don't give the cops carte blanche to handle you any way they want just because you're blocking traffic or occupying a park. Do you?

Anyway, that's a separate issue. What I'd be more interested in hearing from the conservatives is just what would motivate them to engage in civil disobedience, if anything. Unfortunately, it seems like they've only got two settings on their dial:

1) Obedience
2) Violent Rebellion

kootchman said something about the National Petroleum Council and the National Manufacturers Association, but I couldn't quite make out his point. Does he go to their meetings and act out or something? I might buy tickets to see that . . .

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
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I dont know if I have lightened my position as much as I would say I clarified. I tend to say things at the 30,000 foot level thinking people should know. My problem not theirs.

Have I ever protested anything. No. I am not that old though, only in my upper 30's. Plus with 3 kids and another on the horizon I just don't know when I could do it. Not to mention an arrest record doesn't look good in my profession.

Now is there anything that would make me protest? Sure. Who knows what though, I guess when it happens I will know. By protest I mean grab a sign and stand on a line someplace. I have voiced discontent over many things over my life.

Wars for the most part don't bother me. I will not sit on the sidelines and assume I know more than our military and our commander in chief when it comes to information. They make desicions for a reason.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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Bostonman...

"They make desicions for a reason"

Unfortunately, those reasons too often have more to do with economic opportunity than with public safety.

and the rhetoric about Iran heats up...
in spite of the fact that no-one has accused them of violating their atomic program...

hmmm. wonder what Iran has that economic interests in the USA wants?
Could that be oil?

taxpayers paid through the nose for the opportunity to be fleeced by the opportunity our invasion of Iraq created for oil companies.

and it looks like we are about to pay again.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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I have not shifted my position. Civil disobedience was around when the Whiskey rebellion started, the Irish draft riots in NYC circa Civil War, the Bonus March... this fine American traditon didn't pop out of box in the 60's. I am not wedded to THIS cause.. so hell no, I could care less if they freeze their collective asses off. Go for it..in the fine traditions of the Republic. So far, it doesn't rate a footnote. So far. You are just too funny JoB.. it was Democrats who beat the hell out of blacks, inititated Jim Crow... fact, Condaleeza Rice was asked why she was a Republican... her reponse? Republicans shielded and guarded her father when he registered to vote, against a phalanx of white Democrats. No Waynster..your government has suborned you to itsself interest. The need to be reminded where ultimately the authority lies.. in the consent of the governed. As JasS said, with congress at an approval rating of 14%.... there was more support for the British Parliment in the general population at the time of the American Revolution. And we know what happened. This occupy movement is focused at the wrong people and institutions. Their eyes are more rightly cast on our government which is out of control, beyond accountability. Take on that fight... I'll be there. Naive is the word I would use for the occupy movement.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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My post was to our very own JoB, who quoted DBP

""I save my criticism for the know-it-alls who love to analyze politics but are nowhere to be found when the time comes to get involved.""

Involvement include many forums, many methods, and rest assured, Republicans are not idle. Or conservatives, or Libertarians, they are active in other ways, in other forums. The National Petroleum Council, National Association of Manufacturers, AFL-CIO, Wickens for Jesus... etc.. being active were they think they think they are more effective.

"kootchman said something about the National Petroleum Council and the National Manufacturers Association, but I couldn't quite make out his point. Does he go to their meetings and act out or something? I might buy tickets to see that"

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch...

the democrats done it!!!!!

yup, they once did.
but they got wise
now republicans do it

but not in the street

you'll just have to forgive my ineffective little democratic a..

but i think the Occupy Wall Street folks have a point...

the point being that it's time we stopped investing in this little politics as war dance and started asking how we are going to turn our government and our economy around...

before it's too late.

if you still have a pile Kootch..
some bigger fish has their eye on it
i guarantee it

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

It's not magic. To turn the economy around is so basic.

1. Don't spend more than you have.
2. Pay your debts
3. Stop borrowing
4. Limit the role of government to those things it is obligated to do.
5. Keep all federal, state, local taxes to no more than 20% of GDP
6. Set priorities instead of campaign promises

Lots of people have their eye on mu little pile... but only ONE institution can take it. There is no bigger fish than that one. The Asian carp of confiscation.

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
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There have been intelligence reports that Iran is indeed going to be building an Atomic Bomb. To say they haven't is wrong. Good luck going the diplomatic route though because Russia will veto anything in the U.N. Why would Russia veto it when they supplied alot of what they needed to build it and they signed an agreement to process the spent rods.

I agree, Iran is next. I don't know how involved we would be in that though. Isreal can take care of them.

Posted 6 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

Not too burst your bubble on rice and how republicans protected her daddy from democrats kootch. The democrats of the south before the civil rights laws they are the republicans of today just as concervative now like back then. Does dixiecrats ring a bell. Also you keep saying cut this pay that with what. Remember cost have been going up income has not so everyone says cut sad thing is what most want to keep is what driving up the debt. Now with auto cuts coming on in order to keep that fat defence program would you cut education....how about ss leave the seniors high and dry.....how about raising the business and ocupation taxes....no better yet lets raise taxes on wall street and them fat bonse checks. Do the math raise taxes or sink but don't touch mine is what everyone saying so where do you compromise this is what the protest are all about go after the fat and fat is the republican core.....so lets cut the carp and get on with what needs to be done take the head off the fish strip it down to bare bones then again the teabagers wont settle for that it just might hurt them too come election time.....that 14% approval counts both party's of congress

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Oh? Well Waynster that is patently not true. Let's see... who is the party most likely to impose laws and legislation to create a societal complex that fits their definition of justified? Still Democrats, then and now. Shifting alliances to be sure, but the impulse is the same.

I would cut the subsidy of federal subsidy via debt to education in a second. The fastest rising, most inflationary cost, to middle income families is higher ed. They will raise costs, tuitions, as long as they know the feds will issue debt. It happened to the housing market. Why do you think home values rose 125% in a decade? Buidling material costs remained flat .. it wasn't raw materials. Cheap, plentiful debt. Tell UW no more government loans... watch the salary cuts, the perks, the attention to budgeting.. the deflation of costs. That which government subsidizes will cost more, .. it has ever been thus... yes..defense included. SS is a ponzi scheme... and I would prefer a 14% raise in lieu of a SS deduction. In fact, I will opt out.. just give me back what I paid in..not even the interest. If I was 24 years old and saw the SS fund .. I would be rioting. Your feds raided the cookie jar to pay current general expenses, when they exhausted that...did they cut the budget? No.. they borrowed more. Taxes produce no multiplicative effect. Even the most convoluted liberals cannot say it is so with a straight face.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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Oh, Kootch, you're so right, as always. Dems are pure evil, the cause of all that's wrong in this country. Thanks for pointing it out.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

It's not magic. To turn the economy around is so basic.

1. Don't spend more than you have.
2. Pay your debts
3. Stop borrowing
4. Limit the role of government to those things it is obligated to do.
5. Keep all federal, state, local taxes to no more than 20% of GDP
6. Set priorities instead of campaign promises.

Yeah, kootch, I agree with you on a lot of this. Where we'd have the most disagreement is on Item #4.

What is government obligated to do for its citizens, exactly? I say "a lot more than it's doing now." You say "a lot less."

I'm willing to scale back on some of the stuff I'd like to government to do. But you're going to have to compromise on taxes also, because if government runs out of money and simply breaks down, you're going to be hurting just as much as the rest of us, if not more.

****************************************************************************************

Involvement include many forums, many methods, and rest assured, Republicans are not idle. Or conservatives, or Libertarians, they are active in other ways, in other forums.

OK, good. So we're in agreement then. Political involvement takes many forms, and civil disobedience is one of them — no more or less valid than the others.

The most important thing is to be involved. Right?

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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And I agree..not one more penny to higher ed..no more subsidies. Again, you're right on the...er...money..who needs higher ed, anyway...

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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We all do. You use the Christine Gregoire model of rational thought. If you loan, on easy 20 year terms, with no credit history, UW has no incentive to carefully guard the money chest. The know they can raise salaries through the roof...because you can borrow the money. I, as a private business cannot raise my fees to the point where my customers can no longer pay for them. In fact, I have to actively seek ways to lower my costs, provide the quality product or service, to create value for my customers. Cut UW salaries 10%.. let's see what that does for the budget shortfall.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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DBP... the government cannot do all things, for all people. We do not have a revenue problem. We have an overspending problem. We spend so much so fast, we don't even make a cursory attempt to do what every small business does.. audit your expenses and revenues. Maybe we should start a bounty hunter program.. catch a cheat, get a years worth of their benefits as your bounty. If I can catch five a year... that's some good change. It's not like there is a shortage of opportunity.

This being another case. Rip off the taxpayer for 700K and get a 250K fine? Scam the system for 21 years and get 3 years prison time? Break rocks into little rocks with a sledge hammer for the 21 years. And fine the case workers to make up the shortfall. If we give the state more.. all they will do is enroll more. This is right out of the Ron Sims playbook. Always threaten to do harm under the guise of "drastic cuts" to essential services..never cut back on the perks, the fat, the cronyism.... scare the public with the old tried and true... here they are: release dangerous criminals, throw in risks to infant children, close parks, libraries, schools, and cut back on fire and police protections.

http://www.king5.com/news/cities/kent/Kent-couple-admits-to-videotaped-fraud-131895638.html

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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Kman...I'm just agreeing with you...a new policy of mine :D

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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Funny that when the "supercommittee" failed, that the automatic cuts took effect, including a ton of money from the defense budget. Funny how everyone is clamoring about how this is going to hurt our country and it's ability to defend our security. So..yes, we have to make spending cuts, but lets keep giving money hand over fist to the Dept. of Defense. How do we prove differently? I know that there are corners to cut in the military. There is a tremendous amount of waste there, but no one wants to admit it and do something about it. But cut social programs that help those who need the help the most? Sure! No problem with that. If I have to bite the bullet, then they have to, too.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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This is right out of the Ron Sims playbook. Always threaten to do harm under the guise of "drastic cuts" to essential services..never cut back on the perks, the fat, the cronyism.... scare the public with the old tried and true... here they are: release dangerous criminals, throw in risks to infant children, close parks, libraries, schools, and cut back on fire and police protections.

Your whole argument rests on the assumption that Governor Gregoire is acting in bad faith. I don't agree with that. Believe me, if the Gregoire could get us out of this just by trimming fat, she would. Don't you think that'd be a trifle easier than, say, releasing criminals? Or cutting baby food subsidies?

Frankly, I have no problem with the way Gov. Gregoire is presenting the cuts. It's a wake-up call to everyone — including liberals — about how much government really does for us.

Maybe you're right, kootch. Maybe it's been doing too much.

**************************************************************************************

We never know the worth of water, till the well is dry.

—Thomas Fuller

************************************************************************************

Proposed Sales Tax Increase

Gregoire is proposing a half-cent sales tax increase to stop the budget gap. I wish she would have proposed a much bigger one. When people see that increase on the ballot next March — and they have to weigh between paying more just to live or doing without services — I hope it will finally dawn on some folks just how foolish they were to vote against a tax increase on the wealthy (I-1098) when they had the chance.

***************************************************************************************

Most people would rather die than think. They do so, in fact.

—Bertrand Russell

***************************************************************************************

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Tax and Spend. It's easier than Budget and Prioritize. That's a big swipe to take at the majority of citizens. They were foolish, that would make you "enlightened"? Sure. The absolute claim on truth. When citizens take a fall, the least the government should do is adjust accordingly and live within it's diminished revenues. Funny, in large measure, the government dictates the course of our economy, and wants to do more of the same... centralized, planned economies.. and like other countries that have done the same and failed., want to be held immune from the consequences of its mismanagement. We never trust this government to open a stream of revenue and then make it temporary, or worse, they proceed to expand it. WA citizens were smart on that one.... the top ten per cent, then the top 15 per cent, then the top 20 per cent until they reach the 50 per cent of committed recepients of entitlements who will always vote to tax someone else. Parasites are notoriously greedy in sucking the vitality of the host. There will never be enough blood for Gregoire and her ilk.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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JanS..... the hypocrisy is breathtaking...

" But cut social programs that help those who need the help the most?"

We are helping the government agencies most. Not the needy. The needy get the spare change.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

You know, kootchman, sometimes I think we have a meeting of minds . . . or that we can at least agree on terms. And then you start lashing out, characterizing your opponents as parasites,* bloodsuckers, and such.

That really puts people off.

Want respect here? Show some.

***************************************************************************************

*Yes, I have used the exact same term on this Blog. Now I regret it.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Umm well, to tell the truth, I have no burning issue with being respected, or disrespected. Gregoire is a parasite.. she blew up the size and cost of Washington state government with no thought as to who was going to pick up the tab. It's a sad day, and sad governance when the most promises of entitlements wins the day. It's about a 50/50 state at the moment. I do agree the pain is in the long run, probably a good thing. I do believe she managed to tip the scales and we will get a Republican state... they couldn't do worse.

"I hope it will finally dawn on some folks just how foolish they were to vote " sound at all familiar? Mine was a reasoned, deliberative vote.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Calling a general class of people foolish and calling a specific person a bloodsucking parasite are two different things, by virtue of degree.

Anyway, are you sure you don't care whether people respect you or not? I thought you wanted to be respected and taken seriously.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Yes one offends many. Glad to see the self appointment as grand arbitrator of who is foolish and who isn't. At least, as far as I know, it is not a tax payer funded position. If respect means buying someone else's arbitrary concoction of correct discourse, nah.. I don't need to belong THAT badly.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

and you, kootch, have appointed yourself the all-knowing answer to everything. You belittle those who disagree with you, and you turn any constructive conversation into a place that no one wants to come to. You have a very one-sided view of life, it seems very lonely. Is there anything in this life that you like? that makes you smile? that makes you happy? that has nothing to do with money, politics, dumping on people?

You act as if you are worldly and have seen a lot, experienced a lot, done a lot. But..you have no idea that there are hungry children in this world. Or if you do, you don't have compassion, just a "blame that guy in the White house" attitude. It gets old. I won't go away because of it, because then you win, and you will assume that you are right. I know none of us on here will change your attitude, but, as far as I'm concerned, it sucks !

Happy Thanksgiving. Give thanks for the things you DO have, and try to not think, just for one day, that the world is out to screw you.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Sure, I play music, I listen to music, I read, take classes, on occasion volunteer, travel, have cocktails, want my agenda? A link to my calendar? I watch MSNBC for a good laugh, ... worldly? Yea, I guess I am. That would make you right. I have compassion, but it is not misplaced and transferred to others to execute. As I have said many times, and it seems more to you... you have no idea of what I have seen. I do suspect though having viewed far more of the misery of the human condition, in some very horrid places. As to one sided, yours is amply defined.. the world is unfair, someone needs to be taxed to make it fair. go figure huh? How easy to assume. Actually I give the world more credit for benevolence than yourself. Happy Thanksgiving to you too, and those you hold close and dear. A day snark free with a happy cookie.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

I have never said that the world is unfair, that it needs to be taxed to be fair. Show me where I said that. You have no idea where I've been, what I've seen, what I've experienced. Because you don't want to know. You just assume. There's that word. Assume.Do I want your calendar? No, I don't need that.That's not what I meant, and you damn well know it. We could go round and round, but it really won't do us either any good, now, will it, truly?

A snark free day...lol...no, things will be very quiet where I will be. Just the hum of machines running..

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

And show me where I said the world is out to get me...? Do you have home dialysis equipment? My friend is pretty damn amazing..he has gone to Burning Man, chartered a boat with his family, travels a lot... packs all his stuff and goes. It added a great deal of mobility to his life.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

I haven't been trained to do home hemo yet. That will come in the new year. It will definitely free up some of my time, and not be so intrusive in my life. A transplant would be even better :) One can always hope. Damned antibodies !

Wait, wait..I will say it. Life is sometimes unfair. We all deal with it. If it was always fair, what would we ever complain about?

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

I have a list for ya... it's a long one.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Bostonman...

there were intelligence reports about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq too...

of course, if you looked at them closely they don't hold up any better than the current reports about Iran...

at best, the reports about Iran say it's possible they could do so on the side

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch...

did you know it's thanksgiving tomorrow?

if I skip reading your posts right now i will still feel like i have something to be thankful for...

Have a good turkey day kootch.

Posted 6 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

Amen to to that Job........

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.....

Posted 6 months ago #

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