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1. furryfaces
   Member Profile

   And interesting read regarding the recently released bird study: http://www.alleycat.org/page.aspx?pid=945

   ...published in the Journal of Ornithology1, is a limited study that cannot be extrapolated to represent the complex cat-bird dynamic nationwide. Much more disturbing, however, is how this data has been manipulated to malign cats and used widely to dredge up a false and counterproductive debate.

   'It is absurd to think that a minor study conducted on a single species of bird in a small area of suburban Maryland could accurately be used to characterize the relationship between cats and birds in landscapes all over America.'

   (Click on the above link to read the entire article).

   EXAMPLE OF SUCCESS: Cimeron Morrissey, Project Bay Cat

   Feral cat and bird lovers can find a solution by collaborating. Cimmeron's program is setting an example around the world as an effective and compassionate way to manage homeless cats while protecting birds and the environment. The program protects wildlife living nearby. Ten wooden feeding stations were built for the cats by Homeless Cat Network and installed along the trail away from wildlife habitats. The program’s effectiveness is a result of keeping the cats well-fed and concentrated away from avian nesting sites.

   You can read more about her program here: http://www.cimeron.com/page3/page3.html

   Posted 4 months ago #         

2. DBP
   Member Profile

   Yes! I think Trap-Neuter-Release + feeding stations away from bird habitat is a good compromise. According to the cimeron.com article, this strategy has reduced the cat population significantly:

   Our spay/neuter efforts have successfully stabilized the population. [...] Over 80 kittens and friendly adult cats have been adopted into loving homes, which combined with attrition, has reduced the population [of the studied area] by 49%.

   Surely this is a better approach than killing kittehs.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

3. anonyme
   Member Profile

   Have you links to the original studies, other than the links disputing them? It is my understanding that the recent reports on songbird and small mammal fatalities were a compilation of many studies (not just one) in order to present a broader view.

   Claims such as "The program protects wildlife living nearby" are flawed at best. In fact, the Cimeron project (it doesn't appear to be an actual study)does not involve ANY bird studies or counts, therefore NO clinical evidence that this program reduces bird attrition rates.

   Clearly, many birds fall prey to roaming cats in every setting, whether urban or "wildlife habitats" - including backyards. Avian nesting sites are everywhere, as are avian feeding sites. Citing a single example of success by a cat rescue group is no more acceptable as proof than a single study in the Journal of Ornithology. As someone who loves both cats AND birds, I think it's important to look at the entire picture. I'm willing to go either way, but based on real, objective evidence. Saving feral cats is a good thing. Restrictions on roaming animals, laws to mandate neutering of all pets, and penalties for unlicensed breeding - better yet.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

4. DBP
   Member Profile

   All good points, anonyme.

   But let me ask you this: Do you support euthanizing ferals?

   Posted 4 months ago #         

5. anonyme
   Member Profile

   Mr. P, I don't "support" pet euthanasia in any form. Yet tens of millions of non-feral dogs and cats are euthanized in this country every year. I don't think separating them into categories of feral, lost, abandoned, abused, etc. does anything to remedy that situation. Nor does it change the fact that any of these animals, when loose, will kill birds - lots of 'em. Why place ferals in a special category?

   My interest is in knowing the facts. I don't think either side of this argument can proceed in an intelligent, respectful, or productive manner without the facts. In the last few days I've read a lot of press by pro-cat folks accusing pro-bird folks of "demonizing cats", even as they themselves demonize the 'other side'. As a card carrying member of the Audubon Society, as well as a former PETA activist, I find this characterization insulting. There can be no meaningful solution as long as the problem is being presented in such an "yer either fur me (pun-hehe) or agin' me" manner.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

6. DBP
   Member Profile

   Please don't misundertake me, anon. I agree with you that outdoor cats kill birds. No one should sweep that under the rug.

   The thing I wonder about, though, with the people who cite the bird studies, is . . . What is their solution to the problem of ferals?

   Cuz it seems like there are only two options here: Euthanize or TNR.

   If you're for euthanizing, then ok, you're for euthanizing. I think it's possible to take that position and still be a nice person. However, frankly, I don't think euthanizing would work, even if we all agreed to it in theory.

   Kitties evolved to be cute and furry, precisely so humans would love them and NOT want to kill them. And by golly, it worked!

   So if you're not for euthanizing, that just leaves TNR. And if you're for TNR, then you might as well just resign yourself to it and start looking for the best way to go about it.

   So that's where I'm coming from.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

7. anonyme
   Member Profile

   Euthanasia and TNR are not the only solutions, nor are they the most effective ones. (See post #3.) As I said before, we've got to restrict breeding. That may seem impossible, but I think it's a lot more likely than just a few years ago. A smart campaign in this direction would aim at the costs associated with euthanasia, shelter costs, and animal control. You and I may be more concerned with the animal welfare aspect rather than with the financial side of the equation, but the powers-that-be who could push such legislation would want some numbers...and the numbers are there.

   I also think that TNR could be tweaked somehow to be more TNC (control). I'm not sure what that would look like, but I'm thinkin' on it - keeping in mind that ferals may well be the smallest part of the problem. If only there were some modern high tech version of a bell on the collar, maybe one that transmitted a warning signal to birds? Just brainstorming here.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

8. hammerhead
   Member Profile

   

   OK a trapper here. TRN IS TNC. one in the same, you fix the cats you control the population. If a new cat comes along then I am called and that cat is trapped.

   Restrict breeding are you kidding me? (http://www.savewashingtonpets.org/Pages/bill.aspx)This is a s/n bill that is "Supposed" to help.

   I was the one who pissed everyone off at NV for telling people to get their animals fixed. Yes passionate is an understatement. I deal with this all the time.

   Example: Person calls me with 15 feral cats. Well she does not seem to think the feral cats will go in the traps. SO she would rather just NOT do anything. SO what am I do? Would you like to talk to her???? I can NOT make people get their own cats/dogs fixed how the hell am I going to make them fix a bunch of damn ferals You will never make people s/n pets that has been mentioned in other blogs, not to mention why we have the problem in the first place.

   Putting collars on friendly cats in my opinion is dangerous much less a feral cat.

   Another thing feral cats are in survival mode, birds are a hard catch, really they are. So for inner city feral cats, who huncker down during the day when the birds are out, do not waste their time on trying to catch a birds. Mice yes.

   I have no issues with euthanizing the feral cats either, because we can not save them all. I do what I can.

   I will state that I will keep this in the Washington State area. As this is where I trap, I do not trap in other parts of USA. So I can say with out a doubt that the studies are just wrong..

   FCAT/HH

   Posted 4 months ago #         

9. amalia
   Member Profile

   Actually, Hammerhead, you do not know what you are talking about, and I suspect you are aware of that. The most recent study was in SCIENCE, which is one of the most prestigious journals in the world. You, I am certain, do not have the credentials to attempt to judge these studies. Which I am certain you have not read (or if you did, you do not understand them).
   .
   I am usually not so straightforward, but these uninformed and uneducated opinions that deny science are very detrimental to wildlife in our state (and everywhere). I do hope that readers are astute enough to read the results of experts and not believe completely unsubstantiated blatherings that appear on the internet.
   .
   Before anyone accuses me of being uninformed, well... I'm not going to present my CV here so believe whatever you want, but I am qualified to make these statements.

   Posted 4 months ago #         

10. DBP
    Member Profile

    You're obviously not uninformed, amalia.

    So tell me (I'm taking a poll here) what's your preferred solution to the problem?

    Posted 4 months ago #         

11. amalia
    Member Profile

    I know I sound like kind of a jerk, but you might understand my frustration if you were up against this all the time (think: global warming deniers).
    Solution: euthanasia. Would save a lot of poor kitties (two of whom, stray rescues, are my "kids") from coyotes, cars, cold, hunger, and disease. We put them out there and make excuses to ourselves so that we can believe we are doing the right thing, but the truth is, we are doing it for ourselves, not them. They don't care if they are euthanized.
    .
    Harsh, and I apologize if it offends. Like I said, it's frustrating (and some of these trap-and-neuter proponents here are really pretty nasty themselves, so I can live with a little harshness).

    Posted 4 months ago #         

12. DBP
    Member Profile

    I respect you for being honest, amalia. No need to apologize to me, certainly.

    As hammerhead said, she is ok with euthanasia under some circumstances, too. Many shelters practice it as well (even some so-called no-kill shelters). Euthanasia exists. It's a sad fact of life.

    Personally, I don't support euthanizing ferals, and I don't believe the majority of people can be persuaded to support it, either. That's why I think it's a lost cause.

    I think bird advocates should join forces with TNR supporters and spay-neuter groups to lower cat populations AND increase public awareness of cat impacts on wildlife at the same time.

    Per anonyme, it would also help if we could convince all cat owners to keep their cats indoors, but that's another hard-sell.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

13. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    Amalia,

    First let me explain why euthanizing won't work, this may get a little long hope you can hang in there.

    Animal control gets a call about feral/stray cats in their yard, lets just say about 10. Officer says call a trapper. Citizens says I don't want the cats back. So officer brings ONE TRAP to citizen. Well citizen is not going to work that hard on catch 10 cats with ONE TRAP. Hell by then more kittens will be born. HMMMM so had a trapper just come in and trapped them in one week problem solved. Then threw attrition the cats will disappear. The "disease thing" at least in the state of Washington is minimal.

    Just because I don't have a fancy damn degree and have a bunch of money or minions doing the work does NOT mean I don't know what I am talking about.

    I see it and live it EVERYDAY AND BREATH OF MY LIFE.

    SO I damn well do know what I am talking about.

    Yes it is a lost cause, but you know what I am actually trying to do something, because NOT doing anything sure the hell won't solve anything.

    FCAT/HH

    Posted 4 months ago #         

14. mehud7
    Member Profile

    

    amalia, boy that was a rude response to hammerhead. How dare you question someone's intellect. You can just sit home and read SCIENCE and think about how intelligent you are while hammerhead is out there actually trying to make a difference.
    So, who will do all of this trap and kill? Where will the money come from? We aren't even fully funding public education so I doubt money will be found to kill feral cats.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

15. 2krazy4words
    Member Profile

    

    Here is an excellent article explaining the FACTs of the research and the people behind it ...

    http://www.voxfelina.com/2013/02/garbage-in-garbage-out/

    "Very few scientific papers receive the kind of press coverage that’s been given “The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United States,” published in the online journal Nature Communications. Then again, very few studies make the kinds of claims made by the paper’s authors—claims the media has accepted without the slightest bit of scrutiny. Which is, unfortunately, to be expected...."

    Please read the full article and get the FACTS

    Posted 4 months ago #         

16. Anonymous
    Member Profile

    my kitty is a guy with 3 females in the house, unfortunately for my kitty snip snip.

    cats are born hunters. my kitty used to go outside and was a very good hunter that cheated, he knew where the neighbor bird feeders were. he is no longer an outdoor kitty.

    i question the numbers but whatever they are they are significant. not sure what the best answer is. what is the appropriate response to fer rel cats is not easy.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

17. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    http://spaypanama.com/files/Projects/DR%20JEFF%20YOUNG%20DVM_EN.html

    This is a great article.

    Oh a little FYI.

    There is another BIG ISSUE, is that "rescues" who do not believe in aborting at all. Well to me they are JUST AS MUCH TO BLAME as the person not wanting to s/n their pet. So more kittens and puppies are being born. So Amalia what do you say to those "rescues"(a few are local too and no it is NOT FCAT or FAF)?

    I deal with the citizen who does NOT want to abort that feral at all, much less being trapped and killed, so more kittens are born and if not caught in time, grow up to be feral. SO again your science does not prove anything, other than it is the humans fault.

    FCAT/HH

    Posted 4 months ago #         

18. anonyme
    Member Profile

    There is absolutely no question that it is the human's fault, just as there's no doubt that cats are natural predators. Well-fed tabbies kill just as many birds as ferals. You can't simply unleash millions of predators into any environment and not expect havoc, and humans are too stupid to voluntarily take responsibility. The question is, what's to be done about it?

    In all the outcry against these studies, I really haven't seen any evidence at all that the conclusion - cats kill millions of birds - is incorrect. The anger seems to be directed at the issue of euthanasia, and would best be focused there.

    I have immense respect for those are passionate about rescue. They see the horrible reality of human indifference to non-human suffering on a daily basis. Like Amalia, I also have a background in natural sciences. The studies being attacked are highly controlled, peer-reviewed analyses of a very real problem. It does no good whatsoever to shoot the messenger(s) merely because they have exposed an unpleasant truth.

    Another unpleasant (but objective) truth is that birds represent an essential link in local and global ecosystems. Cats do not.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

19. SarahScoot
    Member Profile

    

    Agreed with anonyme. It's not helpful to anyone to derail the conversation with outcry against euthanasia, or challenges of "We can't do anything about it." No one has claimed to have a perfect solution, but it's disingenuous to deny the existence of a problem because of the lack of a neat and tidy answer to that problem.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

20. DBP
    Member Profile

    Does it ever occur to folks that both sides in this so-called debate are already in agreement?

    No? Well, try an experiment. Run these two claims through your think-box:

    1) Outdoor cats kill birds. How many? No one knows. Maybe a few, maybe lots.

    2) Regardless of how many birds, TNR + s/n + education = fewer outdoor cats roaming around, killing birds.

    Let's say you reject Step 1 out of hand. Why get hung up on it? Step 2 is where the magic happens anyway . . .

    **************************

    >>Just because I don't have a fancy damn degree and have a bunch of money or minions doing the work does NOT mean I don't know what I am talking about.

    –Can I be your minion, Pamela? I have a degree.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

21. Anonymous
    Member Profile

    DBP agreed.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

22. anonyme
    Member Profile

    DBP - uh, not really. Is there any real data available on the number of ferals before and after TNR, either locally or nationally? What about bird mortality rates related to TNR? It seems as if most of the evidence is emotion/opinion and not based on actual studeis - although I'd love to see some if they exist. It's reasonably safe to assume that feral colonies shrink after TNR, but until we know the facts, it really is just magical thinking (Claim #2).

    Claim #1 is just silly. We already know for certain that the number is not "a few" through substantiated evidence. And I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that this is not all about ferals - it's about any free-roaming feline. The focus on ferals is a red herring, just like mental health & gun control.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

23. DBP
    Member Profile

    Ooooh, I wanna umpteenth you right back!

    (Which is weird, because we hardly know each other.)

    For the umpteenth time, I HAVE been saying 'outdoor cats' --not just ferals. Reread my penultimate post. Not a 'feral' in sight.

    Now look at #2 on that post again . . . In addition to TNR, I'm specifically recommending S/N + EDUCATION to combat bird predation by ALL outdoor cats.

    But perhaps you just saw "TNR" and skipped over the rest . . . hm?

    ********************************

    Re: data

    I like it raw, babe. And there is tons and tons of it on cat breeding in the wild.

    But do you really need a study to be assured that cats that have been spay-neutered don't produce more bird-killing cats? What matters it whether feral cats that are fixed live in colonies or not? The fixed cats will still be incapable of producing any bird-killing offspring.

    It's weird, because when you think about it, the whole feeding station idea was an olive branch by the pro-feral people. Granted that Teri didn't present this well, because she lumped it in with that other piece that could be perceived as minimizing bird predation. That was an unfortunate choice, but try to keep your eyes on the main idea here: Right now, feeding stations are one of the best tools we have for allowing us to monitor cats in the wild for bird predation and population control. Regardless of what the science on brid predation ultimately says, feeding stations are still a step in the right direction.

    Wouldn't you say?

    Posted 4 months ago #         

24. JoB
    Member Profile

    i don't have the patience today to read this entire thread...
    but i have to ask what all those cats are doing outdoors anyway.

    at the vets a little over a week ago a woman brought her cat in with injuries sustained while out m.. he tangled with a raccoon.

    this week the same woman was in the waiting room with her cat when i picked the pups up from grooming
    when asked how her cat was doing she replied..
    he's fine but he really wants to go back outside.. How long do i have to keep him in?

    Sooner or later this woman will lose her cat to the neighborhood raccoons or a coyote or ???

    and she will think it is the city's fault for letting all of those wild animals live in the city

    the neighbors let their cats run free and those cats love to sit on the other side of the fence tormenting my dogs.. or to prance in the yard when the dogs are inside.

    one of these days one of those dogs are going to catch one of those cats and kill it.
    they are incredibly fast and they are powerful hunters.

    it would already have happened if i hadn't intervened

    when that happens, in my yard,
    the neighbors will blame my dogs

    none of the cats that roam my neighborhood are feral
    and i doubt any of them are fixed

    Posted 4 months ago #         

25. gr
    Member Profile

    indoor cats live longer

    Posted 4 months ago #         

26. DBP
    Member Profile

    Is anyone interested in visiting some cats that Pamela (aka: hammerhead) has trapped, before they go off to the spay/neuter clinic? It's quite an education to see these animals, I can tell you.

    I asked Pamela whether she would mind if people who were curious came and had a look for themselves. She said no problem with it, and she told me that she could even arrange for one of her colleagues to give the tour instead of her . . . just in case someone wanted to learn more about feral trapping but didn't feel comfortable meeting up with her (Pamela) just yet.

    So how's about it? Any interest out there?

    Posted 4 months ago #         

27. SarahScoot
    Member Profile

    

    DBP, no one is saying these cats don't deserve to live, or that they aren't lovable... which seems to be what you're implying with your last post. No one *wants* the cats euthanized, as far as I can tell.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

28. DBP
    Member Profile

    I'm not implying anything in my last post, except that a person can become more informed about TNR by talking directly with a trapper about what trappers do and how they do it.

    Notwithstanding that, I can see how someone might feel they were being set up for a brainwashing here (Oh, wook at the kewt wittle kitties!) . . . but let me assure that FCAT HQ is not a petting zoo. Trapped cats are kept in cages until they've recovered from surgery and can be released. Touching them is strongly discouraged.

    I was impressed by the fact that, when I broached the idea of a vist with Pamela, she immediately volunteered to vacate the premises – which is on her own property, mind – in order to let a more neutral colleague give the "tour."

    If any further assurance of neutrality is required, let it be understood that any visitor could still come away with the belief that feral cats are a menace, that euthanasia is a good option, and so on. Willingness to tolerate disagreement is the price of admission to this game, and I made sure Pamela understood that up front.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

29. Homer
    Member Profile

    

    Thank you JoB! Just keep your cats indoors/in an outdoor enclosement at all times and problem solved. Cats can live and be loved by their owners and birds can live freely as they are supposed to be and be loved by their watchers.

    Too many cat owners being too lazy and have a holier than thou attitude to train their cats to stay indoors (much safer for the cat and the wildlife) or build an outdoor enclosure.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

30. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    

    And why is killing feral cats wrong or undesirable?

    Posted 4 months ago #         

31. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    WorldCitizen it isn't wrong, just a waste of YOUR money and a waste of animal controls time, just like killing adoptable animals. NO different.

    SaharScoot: Amalia says:Solution: euthanasia. Would save a lot of poor kitties (two of whom, stray rescues, are my "kids") from coyotes, cars, cold, hunger, and disease. We put them out there and make excuses to ourselves so that we can believe we are doing the right thing, but the truth is, we are doing it for ourselves, not them. They don't care if they are euthanized.

    She advocates euthanizing.

    So the idea of 900 feral cats thru out the year being kept in cages at any of the local shelters for 3 days taking up VALUABLE space for adoptable animal is just stupid. So why hell wouldn't we just get them fixed and send them back.

    job and gr funny a lot of feral colonies that i know of the cats are at least 14 year or older, I trapped them all. So yes while indoor cats can live longer, Ferals can live along time too.

    FCAT/HH

    Posted 4 months ago #         

32. DBP
    Member Profile

    If people would just [insert fantasy here] . . .

    ♥ If kids would just stay in school . . .

    ♥ If people would just drive slower . . .

    ♥ If everybody would just keep their cats indoors . . .

    *************************

    The fact is, people just DON'T do those things, and that's why there's a problem.

    Educating people will help, yes. But education, by itself, will not solve the problem of feral cats. I can promise you that.

    That's why I have such high regard for hammerhead and her minions . . . er, I mean . . . associates. These people understand that one conscientious deed is worth a thousand daydreams.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

33. SarahScoot
    Member Profile

    

    HH: My point was that no one *wants* to euthanize these cats. There's a difference between concluding that euthanasia is the only solution, and actually wanting cats euthanized. I did not get the impression that Amalia thinks that's a desirable solution, just that it's the cold truth in this situation. It's very unfortunate, but since there aren't homes for all those cats, euthanasia is the only way to immediately reduce feral cat populations.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

34. DBP
    Member Profile

    So why do feral cat populations need to be reduced "immediately" by euthanizing when you can get there gradually without euthanizing?

    If it's that urgent, then you should be euthanizing all outdoor cats, right? Because all outdoor cats kill birds.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

35. TammiWS
    Member Profile

    

    Interesting discussion. FWIW, I've been a kitty parent to four cats over the past 25 years. All have lived to at least 16 years old. All have been indoor/outdoor cats, none have ever been harmed by wildlife and only once did one bring in a bird - alive - and that bird got back out of the house alive.

    My indoor/outdoor cat - who is 14 - doesnt kill birds or anything for that matter. In fact, she wouldnt even turn head if a bird flew right in front of her face!

    Maybe we've just been lucky but I took the time to train them to use the cat door, keep them in at night now (where we live has a lot of wooded area) and use a catbox when needed.

    Appreciate all of the perspectives on this topic.
    Thanks,

    Posted 4 months ago #         

36. oddreality
    Member Profile

    Perhaps we need to euthanize the crows and the hawks and the Stellars Jays?? I see them killing other birds. The hawks catch a lot of them,I see them plucking feathers of their prey on my fence and on the poles, and the crows kill baby birds in the spring as do the Jays...though the crows have a tendency to kill jay babies so maybe it evens out. Birds kill other birds , cats kill some too. More and more people keep their cats in. I think they are way less of a problem than they used to be. There are many things in the environment that kill birds or cause them to be unable to reproduce properly. Humans are the biggest problem. Fluoride ,for instance,cannot be good for birds or their eggs.It is not good for us either.Pesticides and all the other chemicals we use.The prescription drugs that are in the water supply. Humans are the issue not so much the cats.Cats are not the ones out to destroy the entire environment,they are just dong what cats do, it is us.We are the problem.

    Posted 4 months ago #         

37. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    SarahScoot.

    I trapped 900 cats myself last year, over 7000 cats were fixed at the feral cat project where they get fixed for FREE(ferals) there is just no way in hell any of our animal control agencies can trap and kill that many cats. Cats can have up to 3 litters a year, already getting pregnant cats. So the logic to "immediately" reduce the number of cats is wrong. I can prevent more cats from being born before that many are trapped by any animal control agency and killed. So far 11 have been aborted.

    I am doing this with a few volunteers who get up at 6 am to drive cats up to get fixed.

    So you are basically telling me that the 900 cats I trapped last year, should have been taken to the shelters and killed? Even though that is not what you "want"or is desirable?

    Would you take the cats I trap and take them to the shelters that they would have to go and have them killed?

    FCAT/HH

    Posted 4 months ago #         

38. hammerhead
    Member Profile

    

    Well this certainly had nothing to do with cats.

    Again this was possibly done by humans.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Renton-residents-trying-to-solve-mystery-of-disappearing-birds-192619811.html

    While nothing is confirmed. I am sure some minions will be "studying" it.

    FCAT

    Posted 3 months ago #         

39. anonyme
    Member Profile

    I doubt that any scientist, or anyone else in their right mind, is suggesting for a moment that cats are the ONLY reason for bird mortality. Attempts to steer the argument that way are calculated only to further polarize the argument. Obviously, there are many causes and ALL of them should be addressed - especially if they involve many millions of birds. The idea that we should either fix everything or nothing is baffling, to say the least. This anti-science stance has a disturbing edge of dark ages religious fervor attached to it.

    Feline predation affects raptors as well as songbirds. Raptors rely on other birds as a natural part of the food chain; reducing that food source by millions per year is yet another part of the same equation - not a separate threat.

    I'm one of the minions who happen to think that the truth is a good thing to have - whether you like it or not.

    Posted 3 months ago #         

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