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Brand name gasoline. Truth or bunk?

Started 2 years ago by Ken
Latest reply from JoB

pigeonmom
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I just bought an '09 Subaru and the sales dude tells me I shouldn't buy cheap gas anymore.
Is there really a difference or is it just a case
of auto makers in bed with big oil?

Posted 2 years ago #
Pibal
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I agree with your salesman. For years I bought cheap gas and I paid for it at every tuneup. A few years back my mechanic told me to use only Texaco or Chevron. Texaco is harder to find in this area now, so I have used only Chevron for some time. My vehicles (all 2000 and later) all run consistently better, my oil is cleaner, and my plugs are not fouled. I think it's a prudent recommendation.

Posted 2 years ago #
CrystalizedGinger
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For the past 9 years, I have worked for agencies that reimburse me for mileage, and it often totaled several hundred dollars a month, so trust me when I say I tried to squeeze as many miles out of each gallon :) When buying the super cheap AM/PM, I not only got significantly less miles per gallon, but had slight hesitation and a "gritty" feel when I accelerated. I pay extra for Shell, but after 9 years, my little car purrs like a kitty on it and still gets 35 mpg. Spring for the extra 5cents a gallon.

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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pigeonmom: The problem with this persistent myth is that both brand-name gas and no-name gas come from the same refineries. And tanker trucks from multiple brands fill up at the same terminals which are fed by common pipelines. I'm pretty sure the EPA actually requires all gasoline to contain a minimum additive package that adequately minimizes emissions and to keeps injectors clean. The notion that the brand-name guarantees a superior product over generic is pure marketing designed to separate you from more of your money.

Posted 2 years ago #
dawsonct
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We've sure gone through a number of brand-name changes around here the last twenty years or so. Gulf, Chevron, Texaco, 76, BP, Tesoro, Exxon, Mobil, Phillips 66, the list goes on. Most of that gas has been produced at 4 refineries in this state, near Anacortes and Ferndale, for over fifty years in the case of three of them, almost 40 for the other.
The brand-names have changed, but the refineries haven't. I'm not convinced there is much difference, go to Costco.

Posted 2 years ago #
CrystalizedGinger
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While the EPA does maintain a minimum standard for additives/detergents, each company has thier own 'extras' they add for supposed superior quality- "We have extra detergent!" "We have specially encapsulated hydrogen atoms!" LOL!
Well, I don't know about all that, but I do know what my odometer says everytime I fill up. I have the luxury of years of records detailing where I went (highway vs. city) and how many miles. BUT that's for my make, model, year of vehicle. It's also my maintenence diligence, the moons aligning,etc. :P
If ya got the time and inclination, test several tanks of gas of "premium" vs. "generic" under as similar conditions as possible. Gotta get the gas anyway.

Posted 2 years ago #
hopey
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If your soob is a turbo (like my '09 Outback XT) you will have significantly reduced engine performance if you don't use premium gas... significant enough that one would wonder why you went for a turbo in the first place. My husband and I hemmed and hawed over the extra cost of the turbo knowing the premium gas would be an additional "hidden" expense, but we eventually decided it was worth it. :)

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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hopey: I think you've tapped into perhaps some confusion about the nature of this question. The title of the thread seemed to indicate a question about brand name gas vs generic. However, many modern engines, like your Subaru and my VW, require gasoline with higher octane to run properly. That's a different subject.

If that was the question, YES, by all means put the premium gas in your car if that's what the manufacturer requires. Your car will probably still run on the lower octane but it might ping and protest. The modern engines that require 92 are tuned for the high octane and it is true that you may realize decreased performance and gas mileage on 89 octane.

Otherwise, forget brand names and go for the cheapest 92 octane gas you can find.

Posted 2 years ago #
Andre
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From my experience the additional detergents in premium gas (Shell/Chevron/...) make a difference based on the type of engine your car has; especially if your car requires premium. I was driving an Audi S4 (4.2 V8) for 3 years and Shell/Chevron gave me better milage (10%+) as well as better performance than, for instance, 76. On the other hand for my wife's Rabbit (2.5 4 cylinder; requires regular only) it doesn't appear to make much of a difference.

Posted 2 years ago #
Laconique
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Yeah, I think "cheap gas" means lower octane, not generic brand gas company. Higher octane is definitely recommended for cleaner engines in general and for any car with a turbo.

Posted 2 years ago #
dawsonct
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A lot of additives in gasoline are there simply to help the refiners dispose of them, many of them are horrible carcinogens. We drive a bunch of mini-industrial incinerators, allowing trans-national petrochemical companies to duck their greatest liability.
-
Let's go electric! (With electricity produced from non-fossil fuel, renewable sources).

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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Andre: Not that I'm doubting your judgment, but I just have not seen any actual science that backs up the notion that one brand name gas will give you dramatically better mileage than another. In fact, a number of reputable media outlets have run tests and have debunked the idea as pure marketing. But I'm sure the big oil companies would love to convince you otherwise.

Gas mileage can be influenced by so many other variables (tire pressure, route, traffic, speed and driving style, etc.). And detergents aren't necessarily enhancing the amount of potential energy in the fuel. All gasoline sold in the US by law has detergents. I cannot understand what any gasoline refiner could possibly put into their gas that would give you an added 10mpg! That's a significant difference.

And the additional problem with this assertion is that, even when the sign at the station says Chevron, there is no guarantee that the fuel for sale there was refined by Chevron. Because of the way the American refining/pipeline/transfer terminal system is set up, multiple brand-name gas stations get fuel from common sources of refined fuel.

At the end of the day, if someone is driving an Audi S4, fuel efficiency is probably not your primary concern :-)

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
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Links are really helpful to support your opinion.

.

"In fact, a number of reputable media outlets have run tests and have debunked the idea as pure marketing."

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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Oh no, that's OK bluebird, you don't have to take my word for it. The oil companies clearly have your best interest in mind. But you might want to stamp out that cigarette before filling up with that ultra-detergent, expensive brand name gas ;-)

New York Times: http://bit.ly/NYTgas

CBS News (The Early Show): http://bit.ly/CBSearlyshowgas

CBS News: (Evening News with Katie Couric): http://bit.ly/CBSgas

ABC News: (Good Morning America): http://bit.ly/ABCGMAgas

ABC News: (20/20): http://bit.ly/ABCgas

USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2007-06-13-bad-gas-usat_N.htm

Brandchannel: http://www.brandchannel.com/features_effect.asp?pf_id=388

Posted 2 years ago #
Andre
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Just to clarify, I was talking about a 10%+ improvement in milage, not an added 10mpg -- instead of 200 miles I would get 230 miles for a single tank of gas under the same conditions. Not dramatic, but noticeable. I did alternate between these 3 brands (Shell/Chevron/76) for more than a year and I can assure you that for this specific car there was a noticeable difference in milage between Shell/Chevron and 76. I could not tell any difference between Shell and Chevron, but 76 was clearly different in terms of milage and well as the actual performance of the car.

.

That said, the S4 had pathetic gas milage, which is why I got rid of it. Once the electric car makes sense for mainstream transportation I'm fully on board! Who knows, by that time we might even have light rail go over to the Eastside...

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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Andre: Ah. My bad. I mis-read your post. Still, a 10% improvement could be explained by other factors, no? If you have the time to click through any of the links above you will see oil company representatives (and industry associations funded by big oil) making a pretty convincing case that their special secret blend of additives is key to better quality fuel. But much of what I have read and seen (including a recent Nova special on PBS, not cited above) would indicate that there is more marketing than scientific truth in their assertions.

Still, I know that you're a pretty precise guy and that you were probably driving back and forth along the same route in comparable conditions. So if it isn't the gas itself I'm curious as to what was actually producing the better performance.

How is the Cayman on gas? It must be better than the S4. More powerful but much, much lighter.

Posted 2 years ago #
Andre
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Christopher, I clicked through your links and did not see too much, if any, scientific stuff either. However, it seems that there are other factors that come into play; like how the gas is stored at the gas station, overall condition of their equipment as well as how much throughput they have (the more, the better). I did use the same 76 station over and over (ditto for Shell and Chevron). So maybe this contributed to it as well.
.
The Cayman (less weight, smaller engine) is much better on gas than the S4 (24 mpg to 18 mpg for the same conditions), but they are overall quite different cars in many aspects.

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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Oh bluebird. Where's your sense of humor? Happy New Year.

Andre: There probably are some detailed studies out there, just nothing that would necessarily be immediately obvious on a Google search. But the NYT article cited an auto test engineer for Consumer Reports, one of the ABC News stories cited a study by the Maryland Fuel testing Laboratory, and the USA Today article cited a survey by an engineer from the Air Improvement Resource.

It would seem that part of the challenge here is that there doesn't seem to be any economic benefit for an independent party to do expensive research to disprove it. Whereas to the contrary the oil companies have a self-serving interest in distinguishing their brands in what is essentially the same commodity for everyone.

You don't tend to see any studies out there proving that generic brand corn flakes is essentially the same product as Kellogg's. Kellogg's has more to gain by funding studies that can pick and choose results to prove that their corn flakes are better when the greatest difference is probably just the art on the box.

I'd definitely like to see the Mythbusters take this one on.

Posted 2 years ago #
bluebird
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Up to 85% of gas does not have enough detergent to keep fuel injectors clean. Most have only one/tenth. It's more often added to the higher octane because of the higher price they can charge.

My 2007 VW says right on the gas door to put in only 89, which means it doesn't need higher octane but I have no idea how to be assured your getting the proper amount of detergent.

"Bad Gasoline Causes Performance Problems"

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us10325.htm

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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My 2008 VW Eos requires 91 which I have been putting in dutifully since I bought it. I have heard from other owners who have tried lower octane and have either experienced no discernible difference or who claim to have realized poor mileage and pinging as a result.

The whole detergent issue is something that the oil companies seem to have invested a lot of time and money in promulgating. But my question is, what is so dirty that has to be cleaned? I just don't buy it.

I use a clever little iPhone app to track my fuel mileage whenever I fill up. My car always seems to hover around the same mileage: 24mpg in the city, 33 on the highway. So I'm completely agnostic when it comes to name brand gasoline.

Posted 2 years ago #
dhg
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--"what is so dirty that has to be cleaned?" --
Um, it's gas and oil and it's combusted. Didn't you see There Will Be Blood? Their faces are blackened by it :)
Pure carbon is one of the by-products of combustion and it must be removed to keep those cylinders firing.

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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dhg: I don't know about you but when I go to the gas station to fill up I'm not pumping jet black crude oil into my car. :-)

Posted 2 years ago #
Sue
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When I bought my 2009 Mazda5 last year, I was told the same thing about not using "off brand" gasoline - the dealer said that when he used the Arco (AM/PM) gas that he got worse gas mileage and that the gas wasn't the best for the car. Whether that's true or not, I figured that the amount I save going to a place like that versus a "name brand" is probably like 50 cents a tank, and I'd rather not take the risk for such a small savings. It's not that I won't ever put the "off brand" gas in the car, but I do tend not to.

Posted 2 years ago #
AdmiralJaneway
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A couple of years ago, there was a new story about a problem with water in gasoline. The distributor delivered this gas to Shell and Safeway stations. It changed the way I looked at "off brand" gas.

Posted 2 years ago #
Robindianne
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Christopher,
What is the iphone app for mileage? We drive a smart car and although it's touted as being the "most fuel effecient non-hybrid" it'd be fun to test out that claim. It, too, requires the highest octane but we fill up at am/pm most every time.
Thanks!

Posted 2 years ago #
christopherboffoli
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The app I use is called Mileage Tracker (it appears simply as MPG) on the iPhone. I thought it was free when I bought it but I think it might be .99 now. There may also be better apps out there. But this one has worked for me thus far. The developer's site has more information (with screenshots) here:

http://sites.google.com/a/lemdisyn.com/lemdisyn-home/mpg

Posted 2 years ago #
Robindianne
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Thanks. Now let the gas games begin :)

Posted 2 years ago #
cloudy_seattle
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Just to let you and everyone know, there is a large difference between off brands and say Chevron or Shell. To begin with, gas is a strickly monitored consumable so in the basic sense it is all the same. The difference is in the additives that are added before the tanker leaves the refinery. How gas is mixed changes several times a years to offset the effects of weather conditions. Off brand gas adds at least 10% ethanol and little to no cleaners. With Chevron, you got no ethanol and techron added to delay carbon build-up, however a recent change in the law mandated some ethanol in the major brands. Chevron keeps the ethanol levels low 3%. Thats the big difference. So what does ethanol do? It is a highly acidic additive to help boost octane in lower grade gas. It is not as thermally efficient as gas so performance and mileage suffer with the amount used. Ethanol will eat gas tanks, seals, and injectors in older cars. Cars have to be designed to use this stuff. Flex fuel cars are designed for this purpose. Cars from the last 10 years can safely use up to 10%. Your new Subie is made to use the cheap stuff at ethanol levels over 10%. I would never use it myself. So look at the fuel filler door. It will have the octane needed for your car. Putting higher octance than what's required is a waste of money. On the other hand putting regular in place of the required premium won't hurt anything, but your mileage and performance will suffer.

Posted 2 years ago #
JoB
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cloudy-seattle

i would agree that using premium gas on a regular basis is a waste of money.. however.. i do bump up the octane for the first tank on every road trip.

I developed the habit after seeing an increase in mileage once when regular wasn't available... and the premium bump seems to last through several tanks..

and yes.. for those doubting thomases.. and i am one... i have tested this hypothesis. it works for both our vehicles.. a mini-van and a small pickup.

As for cheaper gas.. there is cheaper and then there is risky cheaper because of both the storage conditions at the station and the delivery system for the gasoline.

I fill up at Costco anywhere with no qualms because they run through an amazing amount of gasoline very quickly and keep their tanks flushed. I use my local arco for the same reason.

but.. when i travel and know nothing about the stations along the road.. i am cautious about the mom and pop totally off-brand stations unless they look really well maintained.

however.. given a choice between paying 10 cents more for Chevron or pumping from a well maintained Arco.. i choose the Arco every time.

Pigeonmom.. i put 250,000+ miles on two subarus this way.. and the kids who bought them got another 100,000... Don't know what happened to them after that.

i'd still be driving a subaru if hubby wasn't so tall.. the seats just aren't made to keep a man his height comfortable for any length of time:(

Posted 2 years ago #