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Bagel fans

Started 1 year ago by cclarue
Latest reply from johnnyblegs

cclarue
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What makes a bagel good/authentic?

Posted 1 year ago #
christopherboffoli
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Quality ingredients: High-gluten flour, yeast, malt syrup or honey and water from somewhere East of the Rockies. Slow mixing and slow pulling. Proper time to proof. Boiling in water (which gives them the shiny crust and just the right bite). And then the correct baking time (which requires experimentation and adjustment)

Posted 1 year ago #
dawsonct
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How about bagels in Denver? They are East of the Rockies, but most of the water they use is from the Colorado River, WEST of the Rockies! I bet that presents a real conundrum.

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
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For me, it's all about consistency, and flavor too. A proper bagel is chewy and dense, with a distinctive flavor that...shit, I don't know how to describe it. It tastes like a bagel. The perfect thing to put under your lox.
.
Zatz is the best I've found out here. The best I ever had was in New York, of course.

Posted 1 year ago #
dawsonct
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I always liked Bagel Oasis, but what do I know, I was raised on the West Coast.

Posted 1 year ago #
HunterG
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Chewy with no GIANT hole in the middle!

Posted 1 year ago #
christopherboffoli
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Murray's Bagels (13th Street and 6th Avenue) in Greenwich Village is my reference bagel. Everything else is a pale imitation.

http://www.murraysbagels.com/

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
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Also, if it just tastes like bread (i.e., most of the bagels in the supermarkets around here), they did it wrong.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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Christopher, how does Zatz compare with Murray's for you? I haven't even tried fresh bagels out here because I got spoiled by New York Bagel & Bialy back in Chicago (well really, they're in the suburb of Skokie, which has a large Jewish community.)

Posted 1 year ago #
Zenguy
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Good ingredients as stated above. It MUST be boiled first and then baked, otherwise it is just bread with a hole.

Posted 1 year ago #
christopherboffoli
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hopey: The bagels at Zats, to my taste, are just like all of the other bagels in Seattle: too soft, wrong texture/crumb, unauthentic taste. But the most obvious clue that we're not dealing with bagel traditionalists is the fact that "blueberry" and "chocolate chip" bagels are on the menu. That's just a whole lot of wrong, IMHO.

Posted 1 year ago #
Traci
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I love Zats. The bagels and spreads are delicious, they have good coffee, and the employees are all really wonderful to boot. We find ourselves in there all the time!

Posted 1 year ago #
Sue
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Christopher, I was thinking the same thing about Zatz - if I see blueberry, chocolate chip, pesto, etc., I know it's not going to be like the NY bagels I grew up with. What I really want right now, however, is a NY bialy. And a salt bagel. And perhaps a bag of knishes, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Posted 1 year ago #
maplesyrup
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I went to college in NY, so although I'm a Westerner, I have a decent idea of what is a good bagel.

Zatz isn't what you'll find in NY but it's a lot better than everything else I've tried in the Seattle area, by far.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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The bialy sticks from NY Bagel & Bialy were always my fave. Now I want some, but I don't think I've ever seen a bialy out here. I suspect if I found the bialys, I'd find the good bagels, too...

Posted 1 year ago #
datamuse
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I'm with you on the blueberry and chocolate and such, Chris. Clearly somebody's eating 'em but that somebody ain't me.

Damn, I want a proper New York bagel now. Does Murray's ship?

Posted 1 year ago #
Hydrangea
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I have had an onion bialy at the Cupcake Royale in the Junction. Not sure what bakery it came from--maybe Macrina?

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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datamuse: Sadly, Murray's Bagels doesn't ship. But it's probably because they know that bagels are best on the day they're baked. In fact, they do such high volume there that the bagels have usually been baked within ten minutes of purchase.

The Upper West Side's H&H Bagels does ship. But then again, they also have those ridiculous bagels made with the fake blueberries. So I don't think it is really worth the cost of overnight shipping for a bagel designed for the "B&T" demographic.

Sue: Have you ever been to Yonah Shimmel's on Delancey Street? They have THE BEST knishes in the world, bar none.

Posted 1 year ago #
feefeelarue
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Agreed about the flavored bagels seriously - ew. Datamuse - Zabars in NYC ships bagels as well as yummy black & white cookies and knishes. However the knishes are round not square. As far as Zats they actually attempt a Bialey tried it once, I'll give them props for trying. There's a place in Factoria called Goldbergs Famous Deli. Pretty decent Deli and they make chocolate egg creams which are spot on!! YUM!! They actually have knishes, but again they're round not square. Really good cheese blintzes as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
feefeelarue
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Christopher - H&H bagels are the bomb although the blueberry flavor is new to me.

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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feefeelarue: I could go along with the notion of using the word 'bomb' to refer to H&H bagels. However, I might be inclined to use the word in a different sense. I guess that would make those fake blueberries (made of not of any part of a blueberry, but sugar, soy oil, red #40 and blue #2) shrapnel. :-)

But seriously, in my experience New Yorkers can be surprisingly provincial. I have some friends who live on the UES who only half-jokingly brag about how they never go beyond a six block radius of their apartment as everything they need is there.

When you live in Manhattan you tend to be loyal to your local source of bagels. I'm sure there are UWSers who are fiercely loyal to H&H or Zabar's. But I was a downtown guy and Murray's was a block away from my apartment. So there was absolutely no reason to go any farther than necessary.

Posted 1 year ago #
feefeelarue
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Christopher - Being from NYC I know exactly what you mean about the neighborhood love. It works the same with pizza. Personally i just don't get the whole 'flavored' bagel thing at all.

Posted 1 year ago #
Zenguy
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The only "flavor" I want on my bagel is maybe a sesame seed.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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i have no problem with someone sticking onions or garlic on the outside of a bagel.

raisins, however, aren't even food, and they certainly don't belong in bagels.

or anything else.

Posted 1 year ago #
twobottles
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In today's P-I:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/tastingmenu/archives/238299.asp

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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Interesting. Hillel Cooperman writes extensively (and expertly) for a website called tastingmenu.com. And I actually interviewed him once for a magazine article. So I know that, especially when it comes to food, he usually knows what he's talking about. But in this instance I still think he's totally off.

First, I strenuously object to the dismissive notion that New York bagels are "overrated" and that Montreal-tyle bagels are the answer to our prayers. Seattle needs better bagels, not a better gimmick. (Oh see they're MONTREAL style bagels that are cooked in a WOOD OVEN and cooled on DOWELS!) It's like we've given up hope of ever trying to replicate the NY bagel here so someone has latched on to a more obscure, different style that moves the game and cries victory five minutes after they've hung a shingle.

I know Montreal very well and in a city that worships perfect crepes and is full of hot-from-the-oven ficelles, I'd question whether their divided loyalties would even give them the capacity to make a world-class bagel. The Montreal style bagels are too different to compare with the very best of NYC bagels. They're thinner, less doughy, somewhat sweeter (usually made with no salt). Some people might find them crispy with too much char as wood fires can be tricky to control in terms of temperature consistency and wood ovens can have hot and cool spots that a baker really needs to learn over time. I think the hotter, drier wood fire might also give the more pretzel-like Montreal bagels a shorter shelf life. If you don't get 'em while they're hot, prepare to have a sore jaw from chewy overload.

With all of that said, we're talking about hot bread. So I expect you'll find Montreal style bagels to be more impressive than all of the fake blueberry, par-baked, pre-frozen, supermarket chain bagels or dull Starbucks pastry case bagels that have left you wondering what all of the bagel fuss has been about all of these years.

Posted 1 year ago #
dawsonct
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Thanks for the heads-up, twobottles. Have to give them a try.

Posted 1 year ago #
redblack
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i bagel your pardon, cjb.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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Christopher , What is different about the east coast water that makes it better or different? I lived in jersey for about 8 months when I was 19 so I don't remember the water I do however remember the horrible produce in the grocery stores., and the extra 20 lbs I gained living there eating diner food. They had something like fries covered in cheese and gravy !! Heart disease in a basket. But it sure was good.

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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cclarue: Not exactly sure. Something about the water on the West Coast being too alkaline for proper bagel, bread and pizza crust making. Conversely, you cannot get good sour dough bread on the East Coast.

Posted 1 year ago #
bsmomma
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Pike Place Bagel has AMAZING bagels! To me a great (plain) bagel should taste and have the same consistancy/texture as a pretzel....... So good you don't need cream cheese, blueberries, onions asiogo, etc..... Just warm. Man, I think I'll be taking a trip downtown soon!

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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Sorry, but a pretzel? A real bagel is so much more. And with all due respect, if I had a dime for every time someone told me there were amazing bagels in Seattle, I'd have a Gulfstream jet on 24 hour standby by now.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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christopher...remember, many of these people haven't had your wonderful NY bagels...so to them these are good. It's subjective...geez. Not everyone here is a troglodyte, for goodness sake...they just taste things differently than(and maybe not as expertly as)you do.

Posted 1 year ago #
Sonoma
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Elanta, which Hillel Cooperman raves about, is indeed quite good, though not in a NY way. Much better than the usual roll-with-a-hole. And not so humongous. Trouble is, they're on Capital Hill - a bit of a drive - and parking is a royal pain.

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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JanS: No one is calling anyone a troglodyte. But people who don't know from bagels shouldn't be using superlatives.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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Christopher I love your input when it has to do with food and if your review is good I want to go. I may still want to go eveN if your review is just ok because my pallette is probably not nearly as sophisticated as yours but I know if you say something is awesome it's awesome! I really appreciate good food in my older age!:) I recommended blackboard to a friend a few weeks ago and her experience was similar to yours but she waited like 20 minutes before she was acknowleged and food was good and bad.I haven't tried it but I had at that time only seen good reviews. So keep doing what you do!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
ameyers34
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There is no such thing as a blueberry bagel. Blueberry muffins? Sure. But blueberry bagels? They don't exist. I refuse to acknowledge them. Fruit and bagels do not go together, period.

In NY, it's the "hard water" that makes the bagels and pizza different and arguably better than anywhere else. In other words, it's the water that you don't want to drink that helps produce a better bagel.

I have yet to find a quality deli or bagel place in Washington. I did find a place to get a decent corned beef sandwich down in Portland, but I can't even remember the name of that place since I don't go down there for work anymore. Sad.

Posted 1 year ago #
austin
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I refuse to acknowledge any of you, therefore you don't exist.

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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cclarue: Thank you for the kind words.

austin: Would you please tell King County I don't exist so maybe they'll stop sending me a property tax bill? ;-)

ameyers34: New York City actually has some of the cleanest, tastiest drinking water in the country. I'd drink it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Kenny & Zuke's Deli on SW Stark Street in Portland does an excellent corned beef sandwich.

http://www.kennyandzukes.com/

Posted 1 year ago #
bsmomma
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Yes, a Pretzel. A soft unsalted Pretzel. Maybe you've just never had a great pretzel. I have been to the East Coast MANY times. I have had there amazing bagels. And to me they taste like a fresh warm soft unsalted pretzel. And a Salted Bagel tastes like a fresh hot soft salted pretzel.

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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bsmomma: Hot, soft pretzels (with big crystals of salt and maybe a bit of mustard) are wonderful. But they're way too soft to even approach the texture of a bagel. They also have a somewhat sweeter, maltier outer coating. Very different.

Posted 1 year ago #
charlabob
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http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/02/18/hh-bagels-files-for-bankruptcy-protection/

Not a good omen -- not the best, but good (if you avoid the blueberries or chocolate chips.)

Posted 1 year ago #
cjboffoli
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"manufactured" at a "plant" in New Jersey.

That's worse than fake blueberries.

Posted 1 year ago #
JanS
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ah, but it's water from the east coast ;-)

Posted 1 year ago #
HMC Rich
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Being called a schmuck while not knowing what to order on Houston Street. Oy Vey.

Posted 1 year ago #
Zenguy
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I say appreciate what you do have, Zatz, Noah's is pretty good imho, Pike Place and I am sure there are more. No one will ever beat NY in bagels, lox or pizza!

Posted 1 year ago #
carter
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I'm a former East Coast guy who knows and enjoys a good bagel (not so often as I get older). Seattle lacks a bagel place worth the tremendous amount of calories in them. I make an annual trip to the Montreal Jazz Festival and there is nothing like a misshaped wood-fired bagel (crispy on the outside, moist, doughy, and not the size of body pillows) tossed at you fresh from the oven, then you break off a chunk and with steam rising from it, you shove it a tub of cream cheese . . .

Posted 1 year ago #
johnnyblegs
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carter - have you tried Eltana? Haven't been myself but it sounds exactly as you describe.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/voracious/2011/02/eltana_montreal_bagels.php

Posted 1 year ago #