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Arbor Heights Spectrum?

Started 1 year ago by StringCheese
Latest reply from StringCheese

StringCheese
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Can anyone give me any insight into the Spectrum program at Arbor Heights? Teacher quality, class size, satisfaction... I don't need a definition of Spectrum, but rather, details about how it is going at Arbor Heights. Thanks!

Posted 1 year ago #
charliemas
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Spectrum programs require a critical mass of students to be really effective. The program at Arbor Heights is brand new this year so it wouldn't be fair to compare to the program at Lafayette. There were two other elementary Spectrum programs started the same year as the one at Arbor Heights. Of the three, Arbor Heights enrolled the most students, 14. That's really, really good.

Additionally, the principal, the staff, and the community at Arbor Heights are supportive of the program. That's also really really good.

So, although there isn't much of a track record yet, the two most critical elements of an effective program are in place: strong enrollment and community support.

If you have a Spectrum-eligible child ask yourself and ask the schools: "Will my child get an appropriate academic opportunity here?" That opportunity will come from two places: the willingness of the teachers to support work beyond Standards and a peer group of students who will help to challenge and prompt your child.

Good luck!

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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Please keep in mind that funding for the Advanced Learning program is likely to be cut in the next state budget. From what I understand, on a practical level this means:
* if your child did not go through the testing this past November, you are out of luck because there will be no more testing to qualify gifted and highly gifted kids
* there will be no more administrators overseeing Advanced Learning programs, again meaning there is no one to decide eligibility, even if there was testing
* programs like Spectrum will remain in place for the existing cohorts, but due to lack of testing, no new cohorts will be formed after the 2011-12 school year. So kids currently in Advanced Learning programs will likely be able to continue, but there will be no new classes formed.

Here is a message from the current Advanced Learning director, Bob Vaughan, coincidentally posted on the Arbor Heights PTSA board:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ahptsa/message/2368

And here is the Google Group for the APP Advisory Committee, which has current status information:
http://groups.google.com/group/app-ac-seattle

Posted 1 year ago #
K2M2
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I am confused. AH hasn't started their Spectrum program yet, so how could they have chosen 14 students when the results for those tested won't be mailed until February?

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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I'm pretty sure AH Spectrum has started-they have kids doing 'spectrum' level works-they may not be seperated yet???

Posted 1 year ago #
bertha
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Arbor Heights started Spectrum this fall. SpeakLoud is correct the Spectrum kids are not in separate classrooms yet.

Posted 1 year ago #
Bonnie
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Will they ever be in separate classrooms?

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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If there is enough of them is my guess-but in the same way it is not 'best practice' to remove children with Special Needs I argue that it is also not 'best practice' to remove students who can help other students and model for them-they continue to deepen their own learning at the same time-and lets face it-they won't get any less smart!

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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I couldn't disagree more. My stepson was miserable in his old school district. The in-class "challenge" work he received only served to set him apart from his average-level peers, and he felt it was unfair that he had to do extra work just because he was smart. Last year he was in an average classroom, bored to tears and being disruptive as a result.

This year he finally got into a Spectrum class, and holy cow what a difference! He is finally in an entire classroom full of his intellectual peers. The quality of his classwork as well as his work ethic has vastly improved -- he is no longer being asked to do more than anyone else in the class, so he has the incentive to keep up with his peers. The disruptive behavior has completely disappeared. He is enjoying the faster pace of the class, and the conversations with classmates who are more like him.

I know someone is going to mention learning differences, etc. And that is true... to a point. I wholly believe that gifted children are better off in a classroom of their intellectual peers, rather than being singled out of an average classroom.

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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And how very nice for you and your 'smart' child who isn't going to fall through any cracks anyway. If there was not seperation he would have been in an 'average' class with several other children and he would not have been the only one-plus there would have been assistants in the class to support the children with sepcial needs lowering the ratio for everyone and therfore allowing the teacher to do a better job with EVERYONE.
Segregation is segregation-do we really want to go there?

Posted 1 year ago #
GenHillOne
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Interesting that you say that, SpeakLoud, because it wasn't hopey's concern about someone bringing up learning differences that stuck with me. It was the phrase "with classmates who are more like him" that wasn't sitting quite right with me.

Posted 1 year ago #
valvashon
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The reality for some academically gifted students is that they do need to be in classrooms with classmates who are more like them. My niece was so far out of sync with the other kids academically, she simply had nothing in common with them, which frustrated her socially. My personal belief is that social development is extremely important in the primary grades, so I supported my sister's search for a classroom with kids that were more like her daughter. Ultimately the solution was to advance her a grade, and now she is thriving.

My son who has tested in to the APP program does not have the social issues his cousin had. Each child is different, so the solution for each will also be different.

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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Ah yes but the public school system is only charged with providing an adequate education for all children-NOT making sure that all the kids in their class are just like them-really can you hear yourself when you say this stuff??? A Public Education system SHOULD (and believe me I know Seattle does not) provide adequate education experiences for all children in a classroom or school bulding together-this we'll serve you here and you there, well your special so you go over here crap is driving me nuts-how is anyone suppossed to learn to get along with anyone or face life without knowing how to deal with LIFE....ooooppps sorry-didn't mean to go on a tangent but REALLY......................

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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My niece was so far out of sync with the other kids academically, she simply had nothing in common with them, which frustrated her socially.

This was exactly my stepson's situation in his former school district.

Also, he WAS falling through the cracks. Because it was not a standardized program, he was not receiving enough challenge in the classroom. And neither he nor his average-level peers were receiving any kind of support for the social issues which naturally arose from being labelled as 'different' and 'weird'. His extreme social issues were what drove the change in schools for him.

You are making a WHOLE lot of assumptions about the "support" which is currently available in 'challenge' program locations -- it is not anywhere near as rosy and perfect as you describe. The 'challenge' program schools are suffering from the same budget woes as all the other schools. The extra teaching and social support you describe simply is not there.

I completely disagree with the idea of "clustered" gifted education somehow being a negative and detrimental form of segregation. Different children have different needs, to be certain. However, I stand by my belief that a significant percentage of gifted children have the social issues described by valvashon, and are better served by a clustered gifted program.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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@GenHillOne: I am sorry. I had used the phrase "a classroom of intellectual peers" twice already and chose not to repeat the phrase a third time. That is what I meant by "more like him." Please don't read so much into it.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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@SpeakLoud, sometimes an adequate education can only be provided by grouping children of similar abilities together for their educational experience.

Speaking only for my family, my stepson receives plenty of opportunity to "learn to get along" with children from a variety of backgrounds, in non-classroom school programs as well as out of school.

I am not interested in wasting time wishing for a perfect school system that does not exist. What I have been saying is that I support clustered gifted education. You are of course free to beat your own head against whichever wall or issue you choose.

Posted 1 year ago #
GenHillOne
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No, I get it hopey, but SpeakLoud just made the connection for me. I don't know what the answer is, but we do the same thing to some kids for the opposite reason. It can't do much for their social skills to know they're in the "slow class" either. Part of me also really believes that diversity is a fact of life and that the sooner kids learn that everyone is different, the better off we'll be and maybe (the collective) we won't spend so much time trying to fit in when we're younger.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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@GenHillOne- I realize you were posting at the same time I was, but to add a somewhat rhetorical question to my comment above: are schools primarily for academic advancement, or are they for learning social skills?

My answer to that question is that academic advancement is primary. If social issues are getting in the way of academic advancement, then do something to resolve the social issues. In this case, clustered education works for many children, both on an academic and social level.

As a parent, it is my job to ensure that my stepson receives other social experiences to ensure that he can get along in society. In my opinion, that is my burden as a parent, not the school's responsibility.

Posted 1 year ago #
valvashon
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It's oversimplifying to say that all children can be served together in one classroom together, and that's the end of it. It's not realistic. Ask a teacher. If you're the parent of a child who's disruptive for whatever reason, academically gifted or academically challenged, you're going to do whatever you can to help your child succeed and to bring order back to the classroom. The school district can't offer a sampler platter of options at every school, so they group kids together at this school or that, trying to provide services to those that need them on a limited budget. And sometimes this means people have to change schools in order to take advantage of those services.

People act like testing into Spectrum opens up some golden door within the school district. It does not. I sat in a two hour meeting with Arbor Heights parents and a representative from the advanced learning office, and I still can't tell you how the Spectrum program is being implemented, or will be implemented, in our school. Whether or not the program is up and running at our school is apparently the subject of some debate.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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My child is in spectrum at Madison as a 7 th grader and there is nothing in place for spectrum 7th and 8th graders aside from a few challenge assignments. Only the 6th graders get separation from what I hear. So spectrum at every school isn't what we thought. It's too expensive to implement. My child thrives when she is challenged . In this case I am all for segregation because of the no child left behind all the focus is to the lesser achievers so if the schools teach to the lowest common denominator. So where does that leave my child who is more advanced? One teacher can not possibly meet the needs of 28 students with abilities from very low to very high. That is unfair to the teacher and the kids.

Posted 1 year ago #
acemotel
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Oh, for cryin' out loud. IT's not the job of these kids to be class assistants, mini-teachers or even role models. They are children just like all the others, and they need to learn at their own speed. It's one of the misconceptions I HATE about "gifted" students.

Personally, my daughter was in the principal's office all the time for "acting up" in the regular classroom - as soon as she went to app in 2nd grade, the acting up turned into productive work.

Posted 1 year ago #
Genesee Hill
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I f your child is "so special" send him/her to Lakeside.

Posted 1 year ago #
GenHillOne
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Who said anything about them being role models? I guess I'm back to my same question. If to ensure equal access to education and productive classroom behavior (i.e. not acting up out of either boredom or frustration) we need to separate students into below-average, average, and above-average classes, how is that physically and financially possible? I'm signing out on this one, with my sincerest apologies to StringCheese, not because I don't think it's a valid discussion, but I realize that we've gone completely off-topic. I hope you get the info you're looking for!

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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I realize I shouldn't feed the troll, but...

@Genesee Hill: nice assumption there. If I have a smart kid I must be rich and able to afford private school. Gee. If we could afford private school, don't you think we'd have already opted out of the public school craziness? Or maybe my family actually values a public school education, even with its flaws?

Also, most of this discussion has been about elementary school. As far as I can tell, Lakeside is only Middle and Upper (High) school grades.

Now that I'm done feeding the troll... I agree with GenHillOne that this discussion has gone far enough off topic.

Posted 1 year ago #
SarahScoot
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Genesee Hill, would you make the same comment to a parent of a special-needs child? That s/he should just send that child to a private school?
acemotel is right: it is not a child's job to be an intellectual role model for other children, but it is every child's right to receive a quality education.
GenHillOne: post 8 in this thread, by speakloud: "I argue that it is also not 'best practice' to remove students who can help other students and model for them..." S/he is saying that gifted children should not be put into a separate academic program because it is best for the "regular" kids to have gifted kids in the classroom.
Some of the defensiveness in this thread is ridiculous; I see no reason for a parent to take so personally another parent's desire for a more academically rigorous curriculum in a public school setting.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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Lakeside tuition is 25k per year. I don't have that kind of $. My daughter still deserves to be challenged at school. Just like a less capable child deserves to be taught at his/her capability. My younger child who is a 3rd grader was charged with teaching / helping her classmates understand the math lessons last year in 2nd grade. While that is nice that she could help, why can't she be given the chance to accelerate her learning?. Why shouldn't she be able to take the next step if she is capable? So much of a teachers day is spent managing behavior that is out of control it's not even funny. Spend some time in a public school classroom. I guarantee you will be surprised. If behavior issues were non existent our kids could finish school in half the time. The sad thing is so much control has been taken from teachers. I see kids treat teachers so disrespectfully it's sickening. And the teachers hands are tied.

Posted 1 year ago #
Genesee Hill
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QUESTION:

Genesee Hill, would you make the same comment to a parent of a special-needs child? That s/he should just send that child to a private school?

ANSWER:

No, I would not! I went to elementary school with Special Education children. Hoover School in Yakima was also a "Special Education" school, at least in the 50s and early 60s. I attended that school from grade one through grade six. However, I feel that if parents feel their children are so gifted, they should take the initiative to enable them to excel! I believe that there are adequate programs in place in MOST school districts, including the Seattle School District, to address/enable those students that are "above average intelligence".

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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@SarahScoot Thank you!! Very well put!!

Posted 1 year ago #
yeah-me
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cclarue - I am curious which elementary schools you visit? I volunteer at Schmidt Park (and have for several years so have viewed several grades and teachers) and am always impressed at how well the teachers manage their large classrooms of children. I have seen little of the ghastly behavior you allude to.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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Yeah-me The south east cluster so where you are has a higher percentage of more than less parented children.

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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"Some of the defensiveness in this thread is ridiculous; I see no reason for a parent to take so personally another parent's desire for a more academically rigorous curriculum in a public school setting."

And I see no reason for a parent to take so personnally my desire for a more social justice society created within the public school system-but then that's me looking out for the best interests of all people and not just my own precious overly parented darlings.

Posted 1 year ago #
ahmom
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Perhaps all of these smart kids can help their parents write a more grammatically correct blog posting! ;)

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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@ahmom..I almost wrote in please forgive my I-phone typing while fixing dinner post . It does not look so pretty and I do know better but this subject is close to my heart and I had to say something;) @ speakloud as a parent it is my job to teach my kids how to behave, that is not the teachers job and nor is that over parenting. My 13 year old dreams of going to Yale but I can not afford Yale tuition. In order to get into Yale she would need a scholarship and do far it's not going to be an athletic scholarship :) so academic is her only chance, but in order to do that she is going to have to accomplish a lot therefore if she has the capability to move forward she should have the oppritunity as should ALL kids. Now I know Yale is a stretch but any university is tough to get into these days, kids have to start thinking about and planning for it in middle school. So forgive me for wanting to help my children realize their dreams and goals. And fogive me for wanting to parent my kids now so society doesn't have to later.

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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And in no way am I being defensive , I just want to explain my stance on the subject. So please don't read it that way.

Posted 1 year ago #
suzanne
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This post really did get hijacked, but interesting nonetheless.

I chose not to put my kids into spectrum or APP in elementary school because they were happy where they were and were doing well. I sometimes questioned my decision when they would talk about being bored at times, but I still think it was good for them to stay where they were.

When middle school came around, I opted to have them go into Spectrum rather than APP to be able to stay closer to home. Again, there were still times when they were bored and I would ask teachers to try to give them extra challenges. Some teachers were better at that than others.

However, they have continued to thrive and their state test scores have not suffered at all, so I do feel good about the decision. I've come to realize that it is impossible for teachers to teach to every level in a classroom and I've accepted the fact that my kids won't be challenged as much as they could be. Once they get into high school, then they have options such as taking AP or IB classes and that's what colleges are really going to look at.

I was fortunate in that neither of my children were having behavioral problems because of the boredom. If they had, I might have made a different decision. It really is different for each kid.

Posted 1 year ago #
maplesyrup
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Is the core function of the school system creating social justice or educating children?

Posted 1 year ago #
Que
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@maplesyrup - I don't see how those two things are different. To me, those are the same. So, I would answer, "yes" to your question.

Posted 1 year ago #
maplesyrup
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Asking the question caused me to pause, which is why I posted it. It's an interesting question and the answer is not as cut and dry as I originally thought it was.

Anyway, I can see how social justice might fit in with public education but I don't think it's necessarily the ultimate or single goal. And I don't think the intention was ever to force some kids to sacrifice their own potential in order to help those falling behind.

Posted 1 year ago #
yeah-me
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My child tested into Spectrum and, like Suzanne, I opted to keep her in the school she was already in. She is thriving!

One thing I really appreciate about my original choice to send her to public school (verses private) is the variety of people she is meeting and befriending. One of her best friends is a wonderfully, sweet autistic girl who is incredibly intelligent. Watching my daughter interact with her is very rewarding.

There are advantages and disadvantages in every school. I wish those criticizing the public schools in earlier posts would paint it with a smaller brush and not apply it to "all" public schools -- or even all classrooms in individual schools.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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yeah-me:

I volunteer at Schmidt Park (and have for several years so have viewed several grades and teachers) and am always impressed at how well the teachers manage their large classrooms of children.

yeah-me: I'm hereby sending you ONE good karma point. And with that + $2.25 you can ride the bus downtown.

I also donate ONE good karma point to each person here who has a gifted child but still believes in the public school system enough to keep their kid IN that system. Huzzah!

yeah-me: I am particularly interested to hear from you on the subject of what the teachers at Schmidt Park are doing RIGHT and what seems to work well in the classrooms there.

Do the teachers you've observed pair up the advanced kids with the average kids? Do they bring parents into the classroom to help? Do parents of Schmidt kids spend more time with their kids at home? Etc.

Please elaborate if you would be so kind. I think it is germane to this thread.

Thank you!!

–David

Posted 1 year ago #
suzanne
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yeah-me,
You bring up an excellent point regarding the friends your daughter is making. One of the things I've loved most about the schools my children have attended, is the diversity. You can't get that kind of education at every school and I truly value it. I think it's just as important as learning the core subjects in the classroom - actually, it's probably more important.

Posted 1 year ago #
acemotel
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DP says>>>I also donate ONE good karma point to each person here who has a gifted child but still believes in the public school system enough to keep their kid IN that system. Huzzah!

A fine point, but APP and Spectrum ARE in the public school system. In the old days, APP was co-located with (I don't know the PC and actual name of the program.....) physically disabled? program, so there was a LOT of diversity.

Believe it or not, there was also a lot of diversity in and amongst the APP kids themselves. Some have gone on to become PhD candidates at Harvard or MIT, others have graduated from juvie to the Department of Corrections. Where one may be a waitress, another may be teaching college, another may be a struggling writer or artist or dancer, another may be a short-order cook, or a stockbroker on Wall Street. Autistic children: yes. All levels of social development from virtually none to extremely adept. No stereotypes there.

Posted 1 year ago #
DP
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>> APP and Spectrum ARE in the public school system.

I know that, and I congratulate the folks who put their advanced kids in these public school programs rather than moving the kids to private schools — especially if the parents have the $$$ to go private.

Nothing wrong with private schools mind . . . but we do need a good mix of kids in our public schools, too. Just like we need a good mix of ethnicities and income levels in our neighborhoods.

Frankly, I don't see any inherent contradiction between the people who want their advanced kids to have the most challenging education possible and the people arguing for more of a mix. Of course, no one should have to sacrifice the best interest of their child in the name of "mentoring others." But there's a self-fulfilling prophecy at work here. If every parent with an advanced child took that child out of public school on the grounds that public school wasn't a rich enough environment then truly, what would be left of public school? It wouldn't be a very rich environment, would it?

But this is precisely where Spectrum and APP come in; these programs are a way to keep kids of different abilities in the same school while still giving them the challenge they need.

Clearly, teachers and admininstrators — and yes, school boards — have to do their part to ensure that Seattle public schools continue to be rich learning environments for all our kids. Some schools are already there apparently (as per yeah-me) but other schools are certainly "broken" — and the School District needs to fix them, albeit with plenty of help from the parents.

Anyhoo, if I had an advanced kid, I'd want her spending at least some of her time around kids of differing abilities — not just with kids "behind" her but with kids "ahead" of her as well. I would want her to understand that the world is filled with people of different capabilities and different gifts. I would want her to mentor some and be mentored by others.

And I would want this for her sake, most of all.

Posted 1 year ago #
hopey
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Thanks, DP. Well said.

Posted 1 year ago #
acemotel
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Oh, OK, DP, got it. Sorry, I mis-understood your post.

Hate to take this thread even farther afield, but that's another misconception, in my mind. Having checked out almost all the private schools, the only one that is appropriate for so-called "gifted" students is Lakeside.

And you don't just "send" your child there. Acceptance rate is less than 20%.

The best education for a "gifted" child is in the public schools, as they (currently, anyway) have the staff and the expertise to deal with those kids. IMO, of course.

Posted 1 year ago #
SpeakLoud
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http://www.nurtureshock.com
You guys should check this out-scroll down and find the 5 minute intelligence test. Better yet get the book and read the chapter on ' The Search for Intelligent Life in Kindergarten'. To make a long story short admissions tests for APP "are astonishingly ineffective predictors of a young child's academic success." pg 97

Posted 1 year ago #
StringCheese
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So, I've held back for a long time. However, since starting this post I have watched in fascination as the discussion has diverged, converged, and "regurged".

A few points:

How is teaching every child to the height of their ability a slap in the face of social justice? I don't believe that you can make that argument unless you are unduly placing a classist view on children's abilities.

There are several private schools that are equipped to serve advanced learners. These include University Child Development School in the U District, Evergreen in Shoreline, and Seattle Country Day - just to name a few. However, I know that we cannot afford these schools. I would venture that most families could not afford these schools without tremendous or even full tuition assistance.

On that note, we want our child to attend a school that represents the world into which she will enter. We believe in the dream of public education.

We approached our child's kindergarten teacher with our questions and concerns. I love the answer she gave. She stated that her goal is for every child in her classroom to advance at least one full year in their academics regardless of their starting point. The target is different for each child.

To expect every child to be in the exact same point after 9 months is silly. Children are individuals and expecting a struggling child to miraculously overcome years of delay in one school year is insane. Just as insane - expecting a quick learner to sit around contentedly staring at the walls or doing useless worksheets waiting for their peers to reach the point in learning where they've been forced to halt.

I am a parent, like every other parent, who simply wants what is best for her child.

I believe that there must be a way for every child to pushed to their full potential.

I believe that we have, in the name of trying to do what is perceived as "right" at the moment, placed an incredible burden on our teachers - expecting a miraculous 4-tiered lesson plan for every subject taught each day that will somehow not impact our child's self-esteem.

I don't know if Spectrum will be the right fit for our child but I will strive to get the most information I can to make an informed decision.

For the record, it would still be nice to hear from a parent of a Spectrum child that entered the Arbor Heights program this year...

Posted 1 year ago #
cclarue
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Stringcheese Thank you SOOO much for putting my thoughts into words even better than I could !! My middle schooler didn't start spectrum until sixth grade and my third grader just got her letter of approval. So I need to know about arbor heights as well. I started another thread and asked for elementary specific spectrum feedback from current parents. I haven't seen too many responses yet.

Posted 1 year ago #
StringCheese
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cclarue,
I'll be following that thread too! Thank you!

Posted 1 year ago #
acemotel
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String Cheese>>>There are several private schools that are equipped to serve advanced learners. These include University Child Development School in the U District, Evergreen in Shoreline, and Seattle Country Day - just to name a few.

Yes, good point. My search through the privates took place only at the high school level. I didn't look at those you mentioned (don't even know if they go that high) If Bertschi goes to HS these days, that may have also been a consideration....

Posted 1 year ago #

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